English Defence League and the word "fascist"

[Demogorgon]

The thing is that the English Defence league are very clearly promoting a divisive outlook. Criticism of "Islamic Extremism" is all too often used as a smokescreen for bigotry against anyone from a Muslim background, regardless of their own religious beliefs and observations.

Islamic extremism is not that significant in Britain, regardless of what the tabloids might tell you and generally speaking when people target it, they are (usually but not always) intentionally targetting all people from that background.

[Pogue]

The 'organisation' EDL has a number of members who are members of or associated with the far-right. They represent an agressive, nationalistic trend who, regardless of the bullshit they come out with 'officially', go on demonstrations in which they act in an agressive manne ron a platform of anti-Islam, i.e. focusing on an easy target to create division.

I've been on a number of anti-EDL demonstrations where I have seen people sieg heiling, calling people paki, etc. I've heard people mouth off to with all manner of shit.

All of this makes me have a low impression of the group you seem to be full of praise for.

But even if I had not experienced this, do you honestly expect me, a class concious working class person, to watch as a group of agressive young predominantly white working class males out on the streets trying to tell me that the main issue in the world at the moment is Islam, stirring up that sort of tension, without me doing something about it?

You have missed the boat on what the EDL represents. Do you honestly think that any of us support Shariah law? Do you honestly think its a threat? Do you realy think the sole reason for the existence of the English Defence league is to somehow heroically save us from the impending doom we face with Shariah law?

Your organisation is made up of a 'leadership' with far-right links. We have established this as a fact quite clearly. You lack any coherent structure - your organisation is based around a discussion forum and whoever attends your demonstrations. So to claim that 'anyone sieg heiling or being aggressive' is not part of the EDL is absurd. The organisation's membership is made up of anyone who attends the demonstrations - there is no formalised membership. So yes, you are a member, and yes, you are facilitating a bastion for which far-right inclined people can air their views, publicly and yes aggressively. Any mug who orders a shirt can claim to be a member of a 'division' of the EDL.

So not were you founded, maintained and 'led' by questionable (to say the least) figures, your structure and role facilitates the sort of tension and conflict we, as anti-fascists oppose. In Luton your demonstration smashed Asian shops. Do you really think we're thick enough not to see what that means. You are abroad church of thick nationalists who want to vent their aggression without suffering the reprecussions - hence the 'we're not racist!' bullshit.

So a mixture of your structure, accomodation of far right actviists, founding and 'membership' of far right activists and your rule in stirring up tensions against Muslims leads to you representing for us, 'fascism', i.e. the role of diving the working class, promoting ultra-nationalist politics, etc. Whether you like it or not this is the case.

[Pogue]

Disagree with 2 things there. One is the bigotry against anyone from a muslim background (as I haven't seen this yet) but the other is that extremism is not significant.

I lived almost all of my life in Newham, east London. There are people in our cities who very openly preach their beliefs (not a problem in itself imo, everyone's entitled to free speech and all that) that the west is evil, that democracy is bad, and that any non-believer is not worth as much as a believer... and any muslim who doesn't go along with this sturggle against us evil oppressors is no better than the kuffar (as far as I know this actually goes directly against the Koran). It's easy to say that these people are loonies and they get ignored, but it ain't so, they do have a shocking amount of support and the plain and simple fact is that no one really speaks up about it.... and worse, anyone who does, risks being labelled a racist, a nazi etc.

I'd also like to know why the so-called left seem to actually like this mob so much? Surely they go against everything they should stand for?

Who likes them? Wheres your evidence?

[ManOPeace]

The EDL were founded by ex-BNP activists. Say no more.

Islamic extremism is a problem though. You only need look at the evidence.

[graffic]

The thing is that the English Defence league are very clearly promoting a divisive outlook. Criticism of "Islamic Extremism" is all too often used as a smokescreen for bigotry against anyone from a Muslim background, regardless of their own religious beliefs and observations.

Actually the problem with "English defense League" is perhaps the inheritantly nationalist ideology that goes with it. As Pogue has already said the "english" defence league has nothing in common with any leftist movement.

Why do you bring up the issue of Islam? Criticism of Islamic "extremism" may be used as a "smokescreen" for "bigotry" but this means nothing in relation to this topic. Are you in favour of islamic extremism? What relevance does this have to anything?


Islamic extremism is not that significant in Britain, regardless of what the tabloids might tell you and generally speaking when people target it, they are (usually but not always) intentionally targetting all people from that background.

Islamic extremism is very significant in Britain and should be opposed by anyone with a social conscience. The SWP and Respect party prefer to ally with a group like the Muslim association of Britain rather than ally with fellow trotskyists groups which does so much harm to the British left movement especially when you consider the British Left has never ever developed a united campaign against racism

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

For the sake of politeness i'm going to pretend your not outright lying.

Seriously in what way could a bunch of isolated nutters ever implement sharaia law, the amount of seriously practicing Muslims in the UK is far too low for anyone who has anything other then a nipple piercing for a brain to even dream about considering discussing the implimention of sharia law.

Because i'm sure that you really just really really hate muslim extremists do you not think that the slightly less PR friendly EDL attendees such as the bald retards spouting the kind of shit that would normally be followed by nick griffin spunking himself with glee. That is blatantly going to allow the nutters to capitalize on what is quite frankly a normal and more then acceptable response to large numbers of football hooligans hurling abuse and attacking people where you live. You and your merry band of slap head's actions have the potential to bring the UK mad mullah movement up from the level of two ****s and a dog right up to the level when it starts to have some kind of sympathies from many in the Islamic community not to disimiler to the sympathies for the IRA in the Catholic communities. Seriously your making it worse , if you had any kind of real interest in stopping islam as a theocratic movement rather then going paki bashing you would join the national Secular society or even better fight against the system that drives people to believe in fairy tales soley out of desperation.

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

Islamic extremism is very significant in Britain

A nutter in speakers corner with a picture of osama , dizzy rascel's shock lyrics in his crazy titch diss and some half wit detonating himself on a bus does not equal significance.

[ls]

It's pretty typical that graffic (the pro-Zionist) and the EDL supporter collaborate to attack Muslims for being terrible people, I think perhaps in light of this graffic ought to be permabanned.

Just sayin.

[graffic]

A nutter in speakers corner with a picture of osama , dizzy rascel's shock lyrics in his crazy titch diss and some half wit detonating himself on a bus does not equal significance.

What's your fucking problem with opposing Islamic extremism?

Assuming that anyone who opposes Islamism is a BNP member or a conservative is judgmental and reactionary. I refuse to judge people because it is counter productive and wrong

[graffic]

It's pretty typical that graffic (the pro-Zionist) and the EDL supporter collaborate to attack Muslims for being terrible people, I think perhaps in light of this graffic ought to be permabanned.

Just sayin.

Why do you assume I am pro-zionist? I have not stated any specific opinions on zionism recently.

I havn't attacked anybody, you are judging people and making assumptions with no evidence

[ls]

Yeah, just like you judged jews previously, because apparently as you're a jew you have the right to say jews are self-hating or some shit (which is what you wrote).

You're a nasty little scumbag, you should have been banned quite a while ago.

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

What's your fucking problem with opposing Islamic extremism?



Because every time it is attempted outside of a secular campaign such as no to sharia or the national secular society , some poor Muslim kid gets his head kicked in.

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

Please don't kid yourself or me.
.

Very colourful language but I don't really know what you're getting at. I've never gone "paki-bashing" ffs. FWIW the "mad mullahs" you speak of have a lot more influence in some communities than anyone is prepared to admit, and that, to me, is the main problem. People have buried their heads in the sand while people with some of the most disgusting views about have gained a lot of power and influence over what you would probably describe as quite vulnerable.

You have failed to address my assertion that the slaphead convention / EDL makes things worse by driving Muslim youth into a them or us situation due to the less politically sophisticated EDLers.

No , I do not think Islamic extremism is a big issue ,I do however think Kurdish / Turkish nationalism is an issue is a few communities in london but that the role of getting rid of that should be by people from those communities for the sake of practicality because simply if someone from the Turkish community organized a protest with banners reading PKK scum out or whatever it would obviously ignite the situation. Its a similar principle in you wanting to combating islamic extremism but ending up making a ridiculously small movement into one that is taken up by young people (mostly young men from muslim backgrounds) as a form of opposition to people attempting to bully them.

Seriously i'd take your politics seriously if the average EDL member had as much brains as they did bullshit but its just not the case is it?

[Pogue]

I don't like the BNP, but just because someone has voted for them in the past it does not make them a nazi, fascist, racist or even far-right, any more than someone who votes tory or labour is a war mongorer. People vote for the BNP for all different reasons, and as far as I know most of the founders of the EDL no longer have any official connection to the BNP, but if they've voted for them before then that means very little, apart from the fact they once voted for a party that you don't like. I don't like the conservatives but wouldn't hold the fact someone voted or votes for them against them.



No, not voted for, but been an active member of. Theres a big difference. With other far-right connections too, that makes a CV we don't admire.


I personally have not seen this. I have however seen with my own eyes a group of idiots who were sieg heiling get chased off to avoid getting filled.


Well I have seen it, on more than one occasion. Thats the sort of organisation you are part of.


Well I'm a class concious working class bloke and I don't like the thought of people like Anjem Choudary spouting off about how my country is evil, my values decadent and my life being worth less than his because we don't believe in some imaginary figure without some sort of opposition.

BTW, what do you "do about it"?

Your clearly not class concious, because you galavant about with the fash, probably one of the main preconditions for being class conciouss is not trying to divide the class along ethnic/religious lines.

Either your outright lying or you simply have no idea what you are part of.

And the way I deal with it is by opposing your lot whenever you turn out. Your an agressive bunch, I like to be there to stand against you because I can.



What I DO think is that the sort of people the EDL are against are a HUGE threat. People like BArki, Choudary, and the others are experts at public speaking and definitely have the power and ability to whip up hatred in young people and create their own army of nutcases. And there are already sharia courts in this country, for what it's worth, this is something else that I do not like.


And you think by getitng a bunch of white men together to chant England, your going to prevent all this, right. You seem to be doing a good jbo so far. I'm opposed to sharia, etc, I just don't think chanting england will solve it. I don't think you realy give a shit either.



You're right, I'll give you that one, any mug CAN just claim to be EDL. This is a big problem and there is quite a bit being done to sort it. Then again any tit can turn up at a UAF thing and act like a complete ****, would you be willing to take responsibility for the woman disrupting the 2 minutes silence in Manchester?


Fuck your hypocritical, stuntish populist wank fest of a 2 minutes silence, your an insult to this country.


The Luton incident happened before the EDL were formed. Sorry.


The EDL was formed out of this incident. That was the beginning of your movement. The name EDL was applied later. So don't try and mug me off, you plonker.



Far as I'm concerned the only stirring up so far has been by groups like the UAF, who in Birmingham were shouting to anyone who'd listen about how the BNP and NF (do they even still exist??) would be marching through "their" streets, and encouraging gathering gangs of black and asian youths to "confront" and "smash" what was actually a peaceful demonstration. That is far more divide and rule than anything the EDL have ever done.

BTW what's "ultra-nationalistic" about the EDL's politics?


your scummy bunch have attacked asian kids for no reason. i've fuckin seen it, i need no more validation.

the ultra nationalism is in how you fucking shove it down everyones throats that you claim your bullshit is representing this country, the fact you are trying to stir up some sort of patriotic reaction to a threat you are exagerating, and your general nationalist bullshit. your videos, with their nationalist imagery, your logos, your chants. mindless.


Please don't kid yourself or me.

What are you talking about? Honestly, you levelled that at all of us. No one supports sharia islamist ideas, systems, etc. Provide some evidence for this claim. Take me for example. I've been there opposing you lot on a number of occasions. Were you referring to me too in this accusation?

[ManOPeace]

Fair enough, EDL are a bit out there with some of their views. However, you're wrong if you think Islamic extremeism isn't a threat.

[Pogue]

Fair enough, EDL are a bit out there with some of their views. However, you're wrong if you think Islamic extremeism isn't a threat.

you can fuck right off

[johhy one two]

People have we all forgotten 7/7, the tube bombings anyone?
2 weeks later 4 more bombs that failed to go of properly.
Than a big fertilizer bomb that was planned for Blue water shopping centre.
Another bomb this time a car bomb outside Tiger Lillies night club, A possible rocket launcher attack at planes at Heathrow.

Iam sorry but Radical Islam is a problem in Britain, and because of these radicals we have lost some of our own liberty's.

I don't like Islam period as they are extremely homophobic even at moderate levels,
but if we the left keep ignoring it than who can be surprised if a group like the EDL comes along.
If you ask me its our own thought guys.

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

Nationalist fucks are not left wing , lets clear this up first your not one of us. Yes 7/7 killed alot of people yet like the man children you are you all protest (without consiering the political response of the English man child association shouting abuse at locals in muslim areas and attacking them) at anything that goes boom , the State murders far more people with its substandard housing , low dole and prohibition (which leads to gangs), you don't protest these movements because your mentally undeveloped.

[graffic]

It's pretty typical that graffic (the pro-Zionist) and the EDL supporter collaborate to attack Muslims for being terrible people, I think perhaps in light of this graffic ought to be permabanned.

Just sayin.

haha, "collaborate" to "attack Muslims". I have not "attacked" muslims or "collaborated" with anyone. You are saying these things, not me.

You have judged people and made baseless assumptions that have no relevance to this debate.

The magazine "searchlight" has said that "not every leader of the EDL is a fascist or hardcore racist.". But an organisation that says "English" defence is obviously not leftist in any way whatsoever.

The problem with the "english defence league" is that it is an organisation specifically created to oppose one faith / ethnic group. It is discriminatory and reactionary.

[#FF0000]

hey guys come on now the edl isn't racist or fascist it just draws a ton of them. just a coincidence though come on.

[#FF0000]

You know, for a not-EDL member, you've got a lot to say in their defense.


So why stand with Islamic extremists and "counter" any group who opposes them? Why do the left never turn out to oppose them? When was the last time a so-called left-wing group actually came out to counter an Islamist or Islamic extremist event? Seriously?

Seriously? Because Islamic Extremism is a symptom, not a disease. If you want to stamp out religious fundamentalism then you attack the source, which in this case is capitalist imperialism and involvement in Middle-Eastern affairs. Oh, and the fact that protesting against one particular religion that is common in a handful of minorities cultures generally leads to people taking a xenophobic and racist view of things, whether you intend it to or not.

[Bud Struggle]

I'm gonna resist the temptation to pick out the irony in the collection of words "your mentally undeveloped" and instead ask you if you are genuinely serious here when you say that more people die through what you call substandard housing and low benefits, than died in the terror attacks here? I've lived in council housing and been on the rock & roll, I know people who've lived in one and lived on the other for long, long periods of time, and none of them are on the brink of famine. 50+ people died in the 7/7 attacks, I'd bet money that that is a massive amount more than people who died of dissentry or bad sanitation in public housing, and that not one human being has ever starved to death in this country through not getting enough dole money.

Woah! You're good. Spitting fire and all that rot. Welcome to RevLeft.

[#FF0000]

None I'd regard as fascist or racist, before anyone starts.

Yeah and Charlemagne swore his buds were Holy and Roman.

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

Bit like how almost every time communism is tried people end up dying in their hundreds of thousands? Well no not really, I don't think anything like the EDL has ever happened before and so far no innocent muslim kids have had their heads kicked in.

Na bit like how time every time Capitalism is tried people become emotionally attached to something that betrays them , possibly murders there kids and ensures they stand a fucking good chance of dieing cold and alone.

And yes of course the EDF have assaulted random kids on the grounds they look different. You expect the man child association to do anything else?



I dunno what you're going on about with regards to the Turkish/Kurdish thing, I've never seen any Turkish Nationalist groups in any way shape or form with any sort of power much less being any sort of threat to our way of life.

Well thats because you don't live in those areas nor know , bassicly theres a nationalist feud between the two groups based on the whole Kurdistan Independence issue. I'm sure (no, I know due to the fact east Kent has quite a few Kurds moving down from London to get away from it)




If you think it should be upto the muslim community to get the extremists out then I entirely agree with you. However this has never really happened has it?

No of course not. As it is there is an attitude of feeling helpless at the moment. This applies thoughout soctiey (the reason why the EDL often gets people out is because they are motivated by racism and a desire to hit brown people more then any serious political motive)



The only time the "muslim community" (ie; self-appointed community leaders) seem to speak out about this kind of thing is when they are moaning about how their people are being discriminated against. Was there a big demonstration condemning the 7/7 bombings in Green Street? No, but there was a huge one condemning the met for doing their job.

Shooting people in the face for being brown and getting the tube is not doing their job. There was no demo condemning 7/7 because as I said there is a feeling of helplessness in general and although every now and again people feel motivated to do something briefly (such as the huge march in london in 03) protesting is a rarity. However this fuck all culture hopfully will be reduced as the postal strike encourages people to get proactive (as has being shown to be the case).




I'm gonna resist the temptation to pick out the irony in the collection of words "your mentally undeveloped" and instead ask you if you are genuinely serious here when you say that more people die through what you call substandard housing and low benefits, than died in the terror attacks here? I've lived in council housing and been on the rock & roll, I know people who've lived in one and lived on the other for long, long periods of time, and none of them are on the brink of famine. 50+ people died in the 7/7 attacks, I'd bet money that that is a massive amount more than people who died of dissentry or bad sanitation in public housing, and that not one human being has ever starved to death in this country through not getting enough dole money.


London bombings 52 deaths not including the idiots who blew themselves up. You really think that the amount of people who froze to death, got shot by gangs , killed themselves out of desperation etc fails to exceed that. For fucks sake far more people die from road accidents.


Yes you have failed to tell me what you hope to achieve by driving Muslim youth into the hands of outright nutters? Fucking gimp.

[graffic]

Seriously? Because Islamic Extremism is a symptom, not a disease. If you want to stamp out religious fundamentalism then you attack the source, which in this case is capitalist imperialism and involvement in Middle-Eastern affairs.


Or it's more to do with the fact that extremist muslims are a miniscule number within a minority ethnic group. Anti-fascist demonstrators prioritise BNP meetings because the BNP have 2 million votes and are growing in number. Most people concerned with scapegoating Islam at the moment are indeed racists/reactionaries...

But there's no need to protest against religious extremism because it's "root cause" is a foreign war? Is there no need to protest against capitalist bankers because the root cause is a system which they had no part in creating? :rolleyes: