Abortion?

[TravisW]

I'm against abortion (though make no mistake, I'm not a Fundie or even mildly religious) and I always seem to take a lot of crap for it. People tell me I'm a chauvinist (I'm male) or (as one lady put it) a "fake anarchist".

It occurred to me, if we're striving for a world where people are free (free to think, free to act) why can I not be free to hold my own opinion without getting the label of "Fundie chauvinist"?

[Manifesto]

You really should have read the rules before posting that.

[RedSurprise]

It occurred to me, if we're striving for a world where people are free (free to think, free to act) why can I not be free to hold my own opinion without getting the label of "Fundie chauvinist"?

You're free to have your own opinion, but you can't avoid be labelled. "Why can't we have a free society where I'm allowed to support G.W. Bush but be not called a 'Cappie'?"

People are always going to say whether they think you're right or wrong. Trying to prevent that would also take away freedoms. Their freedom to oppose your position.

And you're right about us striving for a free world. One where women have the freedom to do with their body whatever they please.

[Pierson's]

the thing about abortion is that it is not about the embryo, it is about the women. if another person was forcibally surgically attached to you in such a manner that you were supporting them, what you ate part of when to them, what you breathed, part of went to them,etc. you would still have the right to remove them from you, even if they had no part in being attached to you. even if it would kill them.

that's cause you have bodily autonomy, you have the right to have control over your own body, even if it may mean the death of someone else.


if someone is raping you, you have the right to defend yourself, even if it requires killing the other person. end of story there yes?

so why do people get so upset about abortion...

[gorillafuck]

It occurred to me, if we're striving for a world where people are free (free to think, free to act) why can I not be free to hold my own opinion without getting the label of "Fundie chauvinist"?
Nobody is saying your beliefs are thought crime, so you are free to believe what you want. Labels that people call you don't restrict your ability to believe what you believe.

And being opposed to a womans right to choose is extremely inconsistent with anarchism. Why do you hold these views?

Edit: I just saw your post in the "this is what communism will look like" thread. How the hell are you an anarchist?

[Il Medico]

Abortion should be free and on demand. If you don't want one, don't have it. However, since that doesn't apply to you, you should keep your opinion to yourself, because no one gives a shit whether you think a woman should have an abortion; it's not your choice.

[The Broke Cycle]

I support the right to choose, however I do not think that abortion should be taken as lightly as some people have it here. It is a medical procedure that has long-term implications for the women undertaking it, and it can come at considerable physical and mental anguish. Every reputable doctor has an ethical responsibility to make sure all of these impacts are understood, and that the person making the decision is not rushing into it. Further, I think it is infinitely more moral to encourage adoption, especially if we have social systems in place to make this an easier and less stigmatizing experience.

[Uncle Hank]

While you don't get why people label you like that, what I don't get is why you think it's okay to force women to stay pregnant against their will.

[#FF0000]

I'm against abortion (though make no mistake, I'm not a Fundie or even mildly religious) and I always seem to take a lot of crap for it. People tell me I'm a chauvinist (I'm male) or (as one lady put it) a "fake anarchist".

It occurred to me, if we're striving for a world where people are free (free to think, free to act) why can I not be free to hold my own opinion without getting the label of "Fundie chauvinist"?

You're free to have a stupid opinion as other people are free to say you have a stupid opinion. Two way street, broham.

[The Broke Cycle]

While you don't get why people label you like that, what I don't get is why you think it's okay to force women to be pregnant against their will.

[Devil's Advocate Disclaimer]

Nobody forced those women to get pregnant. And if they did (rape) the vast majority of people would see nothing wrong with aborting it.

[Pierson's]

[Devil's Advocate Disclaimer]

Nobody forced those women to get pregnant. And if they did (rape) the vast majority of people would see nothing wrong with aborting it.
yeah except that pregancy isn't a voluntary thing or not. it doesn't work that way. it just happens... and, well, unless you are trying to get pregant (having sex when most fertile for example) it is just as voluntary as rape (i.e. not at all)

[Schrödinger's Cat]

The ethical side of it aside, how exactly can you be against abortion and an anarchist when the elimination of abortion through the black market in many countries requires from current police apparatuses huge amounts of authority, money, and training? It is not a question of some slave escaping from the plantation or a waged employee organizing against the boss.

[Uncle Hank]

[Devil's Advocate Disclaimer]

Nobody forced those women to get pregnant. And if they did (rape) the vast majority of people would see nothing wrong with aborting it.
Yet there it is. They're pregnant and shouldn't be forced to provide when there's a viable alternative; regardless of people judging what was responsible or irresponsible a woman has the right to control what happens to her body, whatever anyone else thinks. Also no man is forced to bear the responsibility that comes with pregnancy.

Also with your majority statement, that's disputed. I know plenty of people more than willing to say adoption is the way to go in cases of rape or incest. There's no real consensus on that.

[Jimmie Higgins]

I'm against abortion (though make no mistake, I'm not a Fundie or even mildly religious) and I always seem to take a lot of crap for it. People tell me I'm a chauvinist (I'm male) or (as one lady put it) a "fake anarchist".There's nothing wrong with an individual being against abortion for herself, the problem is when you are against other people's choice to have abortions or not to have abortions.


It occurred to me, if we're striving for a world where people are free (free to think, free to act) why can I not be free to hold my own opinion without getting the label of "Fundie chauvinist"?But your opinion is to NOT LET OTHER PEOPLE (i.e. pregnant women) ACT FREELY -- therefore if you are fighting against the ability of women to choose to carry a pregnancy through, you are NOT striving for a world where people are free to act.

[proudcomrade]

I'm against abortion (though make no mistake, I'm not a Fundie or even mildly religious) and I always seem to take a lot of crap for it. People tell me I'm a chauvinist (I'm male) or (as one lady put it) a "fake anarchist".

It occurred to me, if we're striving for a world where people are free (free to think, free to act) why can I not be free to hold my own opinion without getting the label of "Fundie chauvinist"?

You are free to opine that way, but not free to do so in a perfect vacuum without consequences. You stated an opinion that your opponent opposed; end of case.

[The Ben G]

Personally I have no opinion. Im not a Female, so I don't think I should choose.

[proudcomrade]

Personally I have no opinion. Im not a Female, so I don't think I should choose.

If you oppose the oppression of women, you certainly should have an opinion.

[Uncle Hank]

Personally I have no opinion. Im not a Female, so I don't think I should choose.
You don't have to be a female to support women's rights.

EDIT: Whoops, proudcomrade pretty much made my point for me.

[proudcomrade]

You don't have to be a female to support women's rights.

EDIT: Whoops, proudcomrade pretty much made my point for me.

It's OK; sometimes it helps when people can see a consensus of a few different comrades.

[Tatarin]

I never figured this whole abortion thing, or rather, the anti-abortionists. The first question is, of course, why should there be an abortion? The first point could be that the person in question was raped. The other that the person do not want to have the baby. That in itself opens a whole new book, and I am guessing that most abortions occur because people can not support their child. Even more difficult would it be for those who finds out that their child will come out disabled in some way, and will most likely need life-long support.

Which is an interesting point in itself, because irronically, the left is the most pro-life there is. Eliminating capitalism would also remove many reasons for abortion, and the only ones that would be done would be based on the health of the carrier or personal feelings (like a broken "marriage" in where the woman would not want the father's child). In fact, as family structure rearranges and medicine improves, abortions would probably end alltogether.

But what most anti-abortionists shout are that people have a right to live, which is true, but sad as the same supporters stands by waving flags when millions of innocent people die all around the world (how many people support the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq and abortions?).

The religious argument doesn't hold either, as in most religions, there is a destiny, a "what happened was written" sort of thing. So if an abortion goes through, then that is what must happen, it was destined to happen long before the word "abortion" was even invented, no?

[LOLseph Stalin]

I find it hypocritical when many people who oppose abortion and euthanasia can turn around and support the death penalty. I guess it's ok for the state to force death upon people, but not allow the person to make the decision to die for themselves? So much for being "Pro-life"... :rolleyes:

[cb9's_unity]

I'm pro-choice, but I have a unending hatred for restricting people just based on this one social issue.

Women should be allowed to have abortions but those who oppose that right often aren't doing it out of a sexist mindset, they are doing so in what they consider a pro-infant mindset.

I don't know much about the user but now he'll probably stay alienated from the left, fall back into liberalism or from wherever the fuck he came, and not only not develop socialist beliefs but also probably continue to be anti-choice. Way to fucking go.

[proudcomrade]

I'm pro-choice, but I have a unending hatred for restricting people just based on this one social issue.

Women should be allowed to have abortions but those who oppose that right often aren't doing it out of a sexist mindset, they are doing so in what they consider a pro-infant mindset.

I don't know much about the user but now he'll probably stay alienated from the left, fall back into liberalism or from wherever the fuck he came, and not only not develop socialist beliefs but also probably continue to be anti-choice. Way to fucking go.

Well said. The hostility problem on this site is a truly pointless and self-defeating problem. I nearly quit the place over others' behavioral problems, myself, and I know of at least one female comrade who left out of utter disgust at the amount of blatant sexism that still gets thrown around here. Once the damned moderators wouldn't even stop people from throwing around misogynist slurs and writing threads defending rapists, she finally had enough, packed up her shit and quit the place.

I am not saying this for kicks; so nobody start with "If you don't like it, get the hell out!", etc. I am saying this to try to wake a few of you up: Your bad behavior is actually costing us potential comrades and affecting their future.

[Uncle Hank]

I'm pro-choice, but I have a unending hatred for restricting people just based on this one social issue.

Women should be allowed to have abortions but those who oppose that right often aren't doing it out of a sexist mindset, they are doing so in what they consider a pro-infant mindset.

I don't know much about the user but now he'll probably stay alienated from the left, fall back into liberalism or from wherever the fuck he came, and not only not develop socialist beliefs but also probably continue to be anti-choice. Way to fucking go.
What posts exactly would have been the violent deterrents you claim they were? I mean I see your point about aggression but I'm not sure this thread is the greatest example.

Well said. The hostility problem on this site is a truly pointless and self-defeating problem. I nearly quit the place over others' behavioral problems, myself, and I know of at least one female comrade who left out of utter disgust at the amount of blatant sexism that still gets thrown around here. Once the damned moderators wouldn't even stop people from throwing around misogynist slurs and writing threads defending rapists, she finally had enough, packed up her shit and quit the place.

I am not saying this for kicks; so nobody start with "If you don't like it, get the hell out!", etc. I am saying this to try to wake a few of you up: Your bad behavior is actually costing us potential comrades and affecting their future.
Where exactly did this happen? I doubt the mods had a lack of zeal in doing their jobs, just a lack of resources. Mods can't be everywhere at once. That being said, I could be wrong. What and when exactly did this happen?

[Mälli]

Why ban abortion? You cant decide what other people do. I feel bad for the baby too, but dont get yourself in a situation that you have to think about this.

[proudcomrade]

Where exactly did this happen? I doubt the mods had a lack of zeal in doing their jobs, just a lack of resources. Mods can't be everywhere at once. That being said, I could be wrong. What and when exactly did this happen?

The vast majority of it seems to happen in the Discrimination section, although not always. A perusal of the past month or so worth of back threads should bring up some stuff for you to go on.

Meanwhile, I will not threadjack further; let's get back to discussing abortion from a revolutionary perspective. :star3:

[Comrade Anarchist]

it is okay for you to have your beliefs just do not push your beliefs on others as we go into a more a progressive era.

[Catbus]

Why ban abortion? You cant decide what other people do. I feel bad for the baby too, but dont get yourself in a situation that you have to think about this.

It's not even a baby, in the vast majority of cases it's just an embryo or a foetus.