15-year-old gets gang raped for 2 hours, dozens watch/participate

[Wanted Man]

From a few days ago, and I'm not sure if it's in the right forum. Anyway...


Richmond High School Gang-Rape: Suspects Wear Bulletproof Vests at California Arraignment

RICHMOND, Calif. (CBS/AP) They were wearing bulletproof vests and flanked by deputies.

Quite a change for suspects Cody Ray Smith, 15, Ari Abdallah Morales, 16, and Marcelles James Peter, 17, who all now face charges in the alleged gang rape of a 15-year-old girl outside her northern California high school's homecoming dance.

They were arraigned in Contra Costa County Superior Court Thursday, and charged as adults because of the severity of the crime, said prosecutor Dana Cashman.

They could face life in prison.

Smith pleaded not guilty, while Morales and Peter did not enter a plea. 19-year-old Manuel Ortega was arraigned separately and also entered no plea.

Another suspect, Salvador Rodriguez, 21, also remained jailed but has not been charged.

Police say as many as ten people ranging in age from 15 to their mid-20s attacked the girl for more than two hours at a dimly lit area Saturday night.

The picnic area at Richmond High School in Richmond, Calif. where police said a 15-year-old girl was allegedly raped and beaten.

The girl left the dance, police say, and was walking to meet her father for a ride home when a classmate invited her to join a group drinking in the school courtyard before the alleged assault began. The victim had a large amount of alcohol by that time, police said.

Compounding the vicious attack, Richmond, Calif. police say nearly two dozen people saw the rape without reporting it.

Officers found the girl after receiving a tip about a possible assault on campus, and found the girl semi-conscious near a picnic table.

The victim was released from a hospital Wednesday.

Suspects Smith, Morales and Peter were each charged with rape-in-concert and sexual penetration with a foreign object, along with special circumstances that could make them eligible for a life sentence.

Police said they're still looking for more suspects in the Saturday night attack. They're hoping a $20,000 reward will help flush out more information.

http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/10/29/crimesider/entry5452059.shtml

[Manifesto]

Truly an awful thing, I even heard that the teachers or parents heard them talking about doing it during the dance and thats how they found her 2 hours later.

[Fiction]

how strange...

[Pogue]

fucking scumbags, absolute filth, lowest life form on fucking earth.

[hugsandmarxism]

fucking scumbags, absolute filth, lowest life form on fucking earth.

This.

[The Reverend Left]

Hang on now peeps your getting too aggressive here.

What we should be asking ourselves is why did these young guns
commit this crime in the first place.
I think they was bored because the government don't give them no youth clubs to play games and stuff.
So instead they make their own games up and they get a little carried away.

[the last donut of the night]

No words can describe this horror.
And apparently, rape is still funny on Comedy Central.

[The Reverend Left]

Hold on though dawg, maybe she was like you know trying to join the gang,because a lot of the time it involves a roasting and a kicking from the other members.

[Manifesto]

What do these kind of incidents got to do with the extreme sexism and objectification of women that is part of western society?
Well he said he did not know where to put this and the only other place to put it is in Politics. ^^^ Rape is still rape and they beat her too.

[hugsandmarxism]

Hold on though dawg, maybe she was like you know trying to join the gang,because a lot of the time it involves a roasting and a kicking from the other members.

Obvious troll is obvious.

[Lodestar]

Horrifying. Revolting.

I don't know if we could ever solve the problem of "rape," since it's the warped, perverse manifestation of human sexuality as an expression of power over others...This is only my opinion, however, and we should do everything we can that the mentality that leads to this kind of behavior isn't fostered by the moral decay of the society around us.

[Il Medico]

Fucking scum, hope they get what they deserve.

[Die Rote Fahne]

Hope some bubba in prison treats them to a cock meat sandwich in the ass.

**NOTE**

I said this in the heat of the moment. I don't mean it. So for all of you who got offended, don't act so damned superior.

[Holden Caulfield]

Vigilantism ftw, somebody should take them out.
seriously,

[Jazzratt]

Hope some bubba in prison treats them to a cock meat sandwich in the ass.

God fucking damn it man. What the hell is your problem? First it was suggesting slinging homophobic abuse at racists and now it's making a joke of prison rape; which is a fucking traumatic experience and just one of a litany of things I'm not about to wish upon anybody because I'm not some caveman twat that thinks all justice amounts to is retribution.

Consider this a verbal warning.

[Weezer]

Why should they waste their lives in prison? Just shoot them. It's a waste of government money to keep scum alive.

[RotStern]

Indeed Pogue absolutely right.
Fuckers.
Who the fuck would not report a rape?
and 2 DOZEN people!?

[The Broke Cycle]

The Bystander Effect demonstrates that the chance of help being given to a victim during an emergency is inversely proportionate to the number of people who see this victim in need.

In other words, the more people who participate or are around, the less likely anyone is to report it.

[Vanguard1917]

Vigilantism ftw, somebody should take them out.
seriously,

So you support the death penalty in this instance?

[Pierson's]

this is obviously a horrid crime, but wanting to kill them, or wishing that they are raped? they are teenagers!

if they were people who had a long history of rape etc. then i would understand such a sentiment. but for people who make a mistake like this, and that will follow them for the rest of their lives... i have to say, i feel a certain level of compassion for the perps!

i just hope they aren't put in an adult prison, and that they are provided with anonymity in the prison system. prison already turns out more criminals than it gets in (all the drug users who then learn how to pick locks etc.). we don't want prison to turn these folks into true hardered criminals.

yeah, i guess that's going to be an unpopular view.

[Invincible Summer]

this is obviously a horrid crime, but wanting to kill them, or wishing that they are raped? they are teenagers!

if they were people who had a long history of rape etc. then i would understand such a sentiment. but for people who make a mistake like this, and that will follow them for the rest of their lives... i have to say, i feel a certain level of compassion for the perps!

yeah but the fact that these teenagers are already disgusting enough to gang rape a 15-year old is fucked up. It's hardly a "mistake" - I'm sure they knew what the fuck they were doing.

I usually do not support the "justice" system, but in this case, I wish them a harsh sentence and the full injustice of the courts.


yeah, i guess that's going to be an unpopular view.
At least you got that right

[Die Rote Fahne]

God fucking damn it man. What the hell is your problem? First it was suggesting slinging homophobic abuse at racists and now it's making a joke of prison rape; which is a fucking traumatic experience and just one of a litany of things I'm not about to wish upon anybody because I'm not some caveman twat that thinks all justice amounts to is retribution.

Consider this a verbal warning.

I don't think they should be forced to be raped. Nor do I think it should happen. I "hoped" for it in the heat of the moment after learning about this story. For that I apologize.

I seriously think they need to be rehabilitated. I am against the death penalty, and use of corporal punishment. However, I cannot find it in me to feel sorry for them if they got raped in prison (although I would advocate for the person who raped them to more extensive rehabilitation and a longer sentence). The same way I can't feel sorry for a rich man who exploited the worker his whole life, then has lost everything and is now poor and a proletarian (though I would gladly accept him into the Marxist movement). C'est la vie.

Though, i can't help but thinking what Lenin or Trotsky would suggest be done in this situation...would they advocate a bullet through the heads of the rapists, or rehabilitation? I would not agree with that move (bullet through the head), and I know times are different, but that is how it would have turned out, more or less.

The homophobic abuse at racists thing. Sure, take from it what you may, however, I am no homophobe. Nor do I advocate homophobia. Telling a racist to "suck a dick" is what you are referring to, am I correct (or something along those lines)? If I caused offence to you, or any gay comrades, I apologize for that, but I stick to what I said there. If it was a female racist, I would still advocate telling her to "suck a dick". No, I don't see oral sex as an abomination or anything like that, however, it is a modern day insult/attack phrase to use. I am not a bout to say "go suck a lemon" to them, because the effect on enraging them is not the same.

Is it the content of a phrase, or the context and intent behind the phrase that resonates as important to you?

[proudcomrade]

So you support the death penalty in this instance?

Yup. In the public square at high noon. I'll bring the popcorn.

[9]

this is obviously a horrid crime, but wanting to kill them, or wishing that they are raped? they are teenagers!

if they were people who had a long history of rape etc. then i would understand such a sentiment. but for people who make a mistake like this, and that will follow them for the rest of their lives... i have to say, i feel a certain level of compassion for the perps!

i just hope they aren't put in an adult prison, and that they are provided with anonymity in the prison system. prison already turns out more criminals than it gets in (all the drug users who then learn how to pick locks etc.). we don't want prison to turn these folks into true hardered criminals.

yeah, i guess that's going to be an unpopular view.

I hope they get beaten with in an inch of their lives. Pieces of shit who don't have compassion for their innocent victim don't deserve a shred of compassion from society.

[107]

What purpose does this thread serve?

Yeah, someone was raped. That’s horrific and sorely deserving of justice, and unlike some people I hope that the standard procedures of a criminal trial should be observed, rather than sporadic vigilante justice (yes, sometimes people DO lie about being raped, and sometimes people who were not involved in rape get charged for that rape, and sometimes other mitigating factors are involved…its funny how people totally ignore the principle of innocent until proven guilty, particularly where the consequence of being found guilty is spending the rest of your life in jail - but its always nice to see leftists scream the same phrases as the extreme right).

But what is discussable? Should we create a thread every time someone is gang-raped?

Or is this thread just an excuse for people to enter the standard ‘horrific, they deserve to be killed’ post accompanied with the disgusting standard response of ‘I hope they get raped in jail’ and participate in the circle-jerk? Why is someone’s rape cause for a discussion in discrimination and what will that discussion actually involve?

[which doctor]

The Bystander Effect demonstrates that the chance of help being given to a victim during an emergency is inversely proportionate to the number of people who see this victim in need.

In other words, the more people who participate or are around, the less likely anyone is to report it.
This is true. But of course when everyone reads it on an internet forum a few days later they act all outraged that no one did anything and talk about what internet tough guys they would have been if they were there.

Seriously, nothing is easier than talking about how disgusting and vile the people who were there were, but in reality, many of us suffer from the same human flaws that they did. The people that were involved in this are not the devil incarnate like many of us would like to think, but fellow human beings.

In no way is this post meant to condone what happened, but this attitude of moral outrage many of us have really contributes nothing to solving the real problems of rape and sexism in our society.

[Hiero]

In many ways when children/teenagers commit such acts they do as in the place of adults. These are adult concepts and acts in a whole series of cultural ideas ie patriachy, rape fantasy, domination, masculinity.

Even in this thread someone justified rape. The person basically said "yeah rape is bad, but there are some people deserving of it". These boys were told by society in this instance it was ok to rape this girl, that she could be a sacrificial victim for something higher like their masculinity power etc.

I wouldn't be surprised if most of the boys were pretty normal kids.

These sort of horrific events, where it appears senseless like someone getting completly bashed, a mother killing her child, gang rape or thoose kids who killed the toddler in the UK keep happening.

They serve a function where society watches the criminal cases in an attempt to control their darker desires that our society interjects into individuals. By watching these events on tv they can show their absolute disgust at thoose sacrifical perpetrators who act out societies most warped fantasies on sacrificial victims, this way they control their desires. unfortunately someone must act out these acts. These acts are comparable to the colosseum of the Roman empire.

[proudcomrade]

What purpose does this thread serve?

current-events discussion


its funny how people totally ignore the principle of innocent until proven guilty, particularly where the consequence of being found guilty is spending the rest of your life in jail - but its always nice to see leftists scream the same phrases as the extreme right).

It's always nice to see potential sockpuppets with a grand total of one post scream the same phrases as liberals. "Guilty until proven innocent" is a US constitutional conceit.



But what is discussable? Should we create a thread every time someone is gang-raped?

Possibly, if we continue to deem it noteworthy.


Or is this thread just an excuse for people to enter the standard ‘horrific, they deserve to be killed’ post accompanied with the disgusting standard response of ‘I hope they get raped in jail’ and participate in the circle-jerk? Why is someone’s rape cause for a discussion in discrimination and what will that discussion actually involve?

Why do I feel like I'm arguing with Lisa Simpson?

[107]

current-events discussionCool, if we're to believe the statistics, one person gets raped every six or so minutes. Start the threads.


It's always nice to see potential sockpuppets with a grand total of one post scream the same phrases as liberals. "Guilty until proven innocent" is a US constitutional conceit.Firstly, I'm glad you can count to one. Of course, everyone will talk about those EVIL bourgeoisie legal concepts, until they're facing a court with the potential of life in prison. I'm sure your tone would change then.


Why do I feel like I'm arguing with Lisa Simpson?Why do I feel like I'm talking to a middle-aged man whose life revolves around watching Simpson's re-runs? Wait, I am.

[proudcomrade]

Cool, if we're to believe the statistics, one person get's raped every six or so minutes. Start the threads.

Keep trivializing rape. You're off to an awesome start on this site.


Firstly, I'm glad you can count to one.

Ohh, snap! :rolleyes:


Of course, everyone will talk about those EVIL bourgeoisie legal concepts, until they're facing a court with the potential of life in prison. I'm sure your tone would change then.

...except that I wouldn't be facing that, because, hey, I'm not a rapist! And you're doing one piss-poor job of attempting to garner empathy for those who are.


Why do I feel like I'm talking to a middle-aged man whose life revolves around watching Simpson's re-runs? Wait, I am.

Zing! :rolleyes:

Try harder. Write a post that addresses the issue without resorting to neoliberalism.

[107]

Keep trivializing rape. You're off to an awesome start on this site.On the contrary, its people like you who trivialize rape when you use it as an excuse to justify your otherwise conservative opinions on the legal system. Rape is sensationalized for patriarchal purposes in creating an atmosphere of fear where women think that they are going to be raped whilst walking down the street at night, which otherwise creates a situation which restricts female participation in society, and where big strong men like yourself can be our sacred protectors.


...except that I wouldn't be facing that, because, hey, I'm not a rapist! And I'm guessing these young men didn't think when they woke up that morning 'I am going to rape someone today.' Presumably you are a communist (the only people who I've ever met who claimed to be 'proud' communists were 13 year old boys with a hard-on for Stalin), and therefore you may very well be facing the legal system for some aspect of your activism.


Try harder. Write a post that addresses the issue without resorting to neoliberalism.Funny, I can't remember anywhere advocating the liberalisation of the market and promoting free-market financial policies. You know, 'cos this was a discussion on rape, or is your brain so addled you're unaware of that?

[proudcomrade]

On the contrary, its people like you who trivialize rape when you use it as an excuse to justify your otherwise conservative opinions on the legal system. Rape is sensationalized for patriarchal purposes in creating an atmosphere of fear where women think that they are going to be raped whilst walking down the street at night, which otherwise creates a situation which restricts female participation in society, and where big strong men like yourself can be our sacred protectors.

And I'm guessing these young men didn't think when they woke up that morning 'I am going to rape someone today.' Presumably you are a communist (the only people who I've ever met who claimed to be 'proud' communists were 13 year old boys with a hard-on for Stalin), and therefore you may very well be facing the legal system for some aspect of your activism.

Funny, I can't remember anywhere advocating the liberalisation of the market and promoting free-market financial policies. You know, 'cos this was a discussion on rape, or is your brain so addled you're unaware of that?

Keep digging that hole. I figure it'll be about 7-10 more posts before you finally get outed as a sockpuppet...

By the way: Which is it? I can't exactly be "middle-aged" and a "13 year old(sic)" at the same time, can I?

[107]

No, but you can be a middle-aged man with an attitude/intelligence of a 13 year old.

Which is probably sadder.

[Revy]

Vigilantism ftw, somebody should take them out.
seriously,

Between barbarism and socialism, I choose socialism.
What entitles "somebody" to be judge, jury and executioner?

[proudcomrade]

No, but you can be a middle-aged man with an attitude/intelligence of a 13 year old.

Which is probably sadder.

Speaking of adolescent behavior, stop screwing with my rep page and sending unsolicited private messages, please. :rolleyes:

[107]

Uh, I gave you a negative rep pointing out your idiocy (although you've done a decent enough job here in proving that to everyone else).

I never sent you a PM.

I know you lack human interaction with females, but please don't be so sad as to invent facts (lol @ 'unsolicited private messages.')

[#FF0000]

Why should they waste their lives in prison? Just shoot them. It's a waste of government money to keep scum alive.

Because

executions

are

more

expensive

than

life

imprisonment.

Research, people.

[Schrödinger's Cat]

Disgusting, to say the least, but the emotionally-induced calls for vigilante "justice" through gang rape and assassination are irresponsible. It's hard to actually judge those who did not partake in the rape but observed, either from a distance or close up, without knowing the context of their presence. A gang rape is a pretty intimidating scenario - one in which I almost had to deal with a few years ago - but I suspect most people would remove themselves from the situation if they couldn't feel compelled to help. But I've observed the "bystander effect" in other circumstances like violence where good people just freeze up. It's more appalling in a rape situation, granted. I felt disappointed with my classmates when I was the only kid stopping a beating. I can't imagine this particular scenario..

[Dooga Aetrus Blackrazor]

This is true. But of course when everyone reads it on an internet forum a few days later they act all outraged that no one did anything and talk about what internet tough guys they would have been if they were there.

Seriously, nothing is easier than talking about how disgusting and vile the people who were there were, but in reality, many of us suffer from the same human flaws that they did. The people that were involved in this are not the devil incarnate like many of us would like to think, but fellow human beings.

In no way is this post meant to condone what happened, but this attitude of moral outrage many of us have really contributes nothing to solving the real problems of rape and sexism in our society.

"Human" is an arbitrary definition. Those who committed the act were just as "human" as the rest of us. So were the bystanders.

Psychology such as the "Bystander Effect" is not an appropriate explanation of those involved. We shouldn't treat those people leniently because a psychological theory says "most people are prone to doing that." People aren't rocks that obey physical laws no matter what. Each one of those people could have easily done the right thing.

They're all cowards. Maybe their genetically predisposed to be cowards, but we certainly shouldn't be sympathizing with them because "most people might react in such a way." I'm personally insulted if these people are "human like the rest of us" implies they are on some equal moral standing as most people. I would not watch a women get raped and do nothing.

If the majority of people selected at random are incapable of intervening when a rape is in progress, why would anyone be a communist? We need to be careful about using science to justify irrational positions.

People are very capable of doing the right thing. They don't accept they are capable of it. They just make excuses for it. I don't care if helping the women would be risking their life. A society can't be founded on principles where people get to throw their common decency away whenever they're too cowardly or selfish to act properly.

Charge all of them with rape. Even if some of them didn't participate in a physical rape, they certainly raped the woman's spirit by revealing to her the indecency found on this earth.

Give them all the psychological help they need. If we can figure out a way to make a decent citizen out of them, release them. If not, a decent quality of life with forced labor that sends reparations to the victim and rape-related charities.

[Revy]

Charge all of them with rape. Even if some of them didn't participate in a physical rape, they certainly raped the woman's spirit by revealing to her the indecency found on this earth.


Her "spirit" was raped by those that stood by and watched? That will be laughed out of court, if it is a serious charge and not a metaphor.

They can't be charged with rape. Some other crime, maybe.

[118]

I don’t think that someone who simply watches a crime occur and doesn’t report it should be guilty of that crime, or a lesser crime. Yes, someone who is an accessory after the fact, e.g. they learn of the crime and subsequently help the criminal (for instance by hiding them), should face some sort of criminal responsibility. But I don’t see how someone who merely witnesses a crime and fails to stop it or report it should be in anyway liable – there are numerous reasons why the person may not have notified the police – fear of retribution, shock, mistaken as to whether it was actually a crime, etc. Generally an omission to help someone isn’t a criminal offence – there is no legal obligation to help someone who is being attacked by a group of criminals. The exception is where that person is under your control, you may face criminal liability for an omission (e.g. if you fail to provide your child with any food, you haven’t done anything directly to kill him/her, but your omission of providing him/her with food means that you’re criminally liable). Further, it seems that being required to inform the police would be at least in conflict with the Fifth Amendment – the right to silence.

[Revy]

I don’t think that someone who simply watches a crime occur and doesn’t report it should be guilty of that crime, or a lesser crime. Yes, someone who is an accessory after the fact, e.g. they learn of the crime and subsequently help the criminal (for instance by hiding them), should face some sort of criminal responsibility. But I don’t see how someone who merely witnesses a crime and fails to stop it or report it should be in anyway liable – there are numerous reasons why the person may not have notified the police – fear of retribution, shock, mistaken as to whether it was actually a crime, etc. Generally an omission to help someone isn’t a criminal offence – there is no legal obligation to help someone who is being attacked by a group of criminals. The exception is where that person is under your control, you may face criminal liability for an omission (e.g. if you fail to provide your child with any food, you haven’t done anything directly to kill him/her, but your omission of providing him/her with food means that you’re criminally liable). Further, it seems that being required to inform the police would be at least in conflict with the Fifth Amendment – the right to silence.

Awesome first post.:thumbup1:

[118]

Awesome last post. :(

[Rjevan]

But I don’t see how someone who merely witnesses a crime and fails to stop it or report it should be in anyway liable – there are numerous reasons why the person may not have notified the police – fear of retribution, shock, mistaken as to whether it was actually a crime, etc.
Yes, right, I'm pretty sure it is hard to realise that there is actually a crime happening if you see a 15 years old girl being gang-raped by 10 people in the street, I mean, pretty usual, isn't it, I would also never think that there might be something wrong. :thumbup1:
Fear of retribution - for reporting a crime??? Oh, come on...
And for shock, doesn't sound like the "bystanders" were so shocked, I hardly can imagine that people who pass by and walk along or watch it are so shocked that they need psychiatric care afterwards and could have never called the police, sounds more like "Who cares, I don't." for the people passing by or "Hey, great, wish I could be that guy" for the bystanders.


Generally an omission to help someone isn’t a criminal offence – there is no legal obligation to help someone who is being attacked by a group of criminals. Further, it seems that being required to inform the police would be at least in conflict with the Fifth Amendment – the right to silence.
Sad world if there first has to be a law forcing you to report a crime because you wouldn't do so otherwise. And a even more sad world if you rather choose to stick to the Fifth Amendment than to your humanity and conscience.
Awesome nonsense.

Generally, what to say, comparing those creatures to animals is a massive insult to every animal, no animal behaves like those scumbags did, what living pieces of shit and dirt, the only reason why I would be opposed to death penalty is that it is too good for them.

[102]

Yes, right, I'm pretty sure it is hard to realise that there is actually a crime happening if you see a 15 years old girl being gang-raped by 10 people in the street, I mean, pretty usual, isn't it, I would also never think that there might be something wrong. :thumbup1:
Fear of retribution - for reporting a crime??? Oh, come on...
And for shock, doesn't sound like the "bystanders" were so shocked, I hardly can imagine that people who pass by and walk along or watch it are so shocked that they need psychiatric care afterwards and could have never called the police, sounds more like "Who cares, I don't." for the people passing by or "Hey, great, wish I could be that guy" for the bystanders. Wow, what a fucking joke of a distortion, you disgusting piece of shit.

I was referring generally as to why someone may not wish to report a crime in a general situation and referring generally as to why someone who merely witnesses a crime shouldn’t be held liable for that crime; I was making absolutely no comment as to why the people in this situation didn’t report it or attempt to stop it. And yes, people often DO fear reporting a crime that has been committed against them or someone else for fear of retribution. If you were witnessing someone been stabbed, then should you be just as responsible for failing to step in? Evidently not, so shut up.

In this situation, I would like to think that I would immediately call the police. I’m not strong enough to fight off ten men, and I’d be putting myself in danger of also being raped if I tried. If someone just witnessed a young woman being raped with full knowledge of that without alerting the police ASAP, then on face value they’ve failed, in my mind, to meet certain ethical standards. But they haven’t raped anyone and nor should they be treated as they have.

So fuck you for totally distorting my position, you lying asshole.


Sad world if there first has to be a law forcing you to report a crime because you wouldn't do so otherwise. And a even more sad world if you rather choose to stick to the Fifth Amendment than to your humanity and conscience.
Awesome nonsense.Again, you lying dickhead, I was addressing it from a legal perspective; in most jurisdictions someone cannot be charged for failing to report a crime, and especially in the USA I questioned that it would be in conflict with other legal principles. In a perfect world all crimes would be reported, all criminals would be caught. Until then, there are a myriad of reasons why people will refuse to talk to the police.

[Invincible Summer]

Wow, what a fucking joke of a distortion, you disgusting piece of shit.

[...]


Evidently not, so shut up.

[...]

So fuck you for totally distorting my position, you lying asshole.

[...]

Again, you lying dickhead,



Watch the inflammatory language.


In this situation, I would like to think that I would immediately call the police. I’m not strong enough to fight off ten men, and I’d be putting myself in danger of also being raped if I tried. If someone just witnessed a young woman being raped with full knowledge of that without alerting the police ASAP, then on face value they’ve failed, in my mind, to meet certain ethical standards. But they haven’t raped anyone and nor should they be treated as they have.
Yeah, cuz they're just animals that rape everything in sight. It's pretty safe to say that if you try to prevent a girl being raped, you won't be raped...

And if someone witnesses a rape and doesn't report it, they're pretty much helping the disgusting act go along unpunished.

[#FF0000]

you guys are fucking stupid.

[cb9's_unity]

I think we need rehabilitation over punishment. However I think rehabilitation takes time and for these guys it should be quite a long time.

The people in their late-teens and those in their twenties should spend quite some time, if not most of the rest of their lives, locked away. However I'm concerned about putting a 15 year old in jail for the rest of his life. Right now he is one of the most disgusting people on the earth and should certainly be taken out of the mainstream population for his actions, but hopefully with help and the hope of a future outside of jail he can understand the horrors he inflected and change himself.

Again the older kids and adults can spend most of their lives in jail but is anyone else concerned with putting a 15 year old, who obviously wasn't around respectable peers, in jail for the rest of his life?

[Die Rote Fahne]

I think we need rehabilitation over punishment. However I think rehabilitation takes time and for these guys it should be quite a long time.

The people in their late-teens and those in their twenties should spend quite some time, if not most of the rest of their lives, locked away. However I'm concerned about putting a 15 year old in jail for the rest of his life. Right now he is one of the most disgusting people on the earth and should certainly be taken out of the mainstream population for his actions, but hopefully with help and the hope of a future outside of jail he can understand the horrors he inflected and change himself.

Again the older kids and adults can spend most of their lives in jail but is anyone else concerned with putting a 15 year old, who obviously wasn't around respectable peers, in jail for the rest of his life?

No, I would suggest intensive psychotherapy. Although, i wouldn't be opposed to giving him a few years in the pen.

[Sasha]

sockpuppet circle jerk

[Pavlov's House Party]

fucking scumbags, absolute filth, lowest life form on fucking earth.

quoted for fucking truth

I'm not a very emotional person, but reading this article filled me with rage and indignation. There's no sentence they can be given that would ever make up for what the did. Fucking scum.

[proudcomrade]

The person whose right to rehabilitation, intensive psychotherapy, and the ability to walk around enjoying fresh air, sunlight and basic human dignity, concern me, is that girl.

[#FF0000]

sockpuppet circle jerk

this thread is all sorts of circle jerk

[Rjevan]

Again the older kids and adults can spend most of their lives in jail but is anyone else concerned with putting a 15 year old, who obviously wasn't around respectable peers, in jail for the rest of his life?
That he's a 15 years old doesn't excuse anything. And I seriously doubt he will regret what he has done (well, maybe he will after several years in prison and dicovering that life in freedom was maybe not that bad) and I also don't think it's an excuse that he was in "bad company". He did what he did, he must have known the consequences and if he didn't well, that is also no excuse either.

And I think it is so typical that the rapers "were wearing bulletproof vests and [were] flanked by deputies" in court and that people (not only here!) suggest they need help. Sorry, but bullshit! The only person who needs help, protection, attention, psychological care and our sympathy is the girl! Something is really really wrong with a system in which the criminals are presented as some kind of victims themselves!

[Dooga Aetrus Blackrazor]

Her "spirit" was raped by those that stood by and watched? That will be laughed out of court, if it is a serious charge and not a metaphor.

They can't be charged with rape. Some other crime, maybe.

Courts are a joke. I don't mean some metaphysical entity, of course. I'm simply trying to use a metaphor to illustrate their role.

Consider scenario X:

John rapes a women.
A women will be raped if John does nothing.

Either way, John performs an action. Either he acts in his decision to do nothing, or he acts in his decision to rape. Either way, his choices are responsible for the result. A women got raped. Every "innocent" bystander to an offense is guilty.

A rapist would not be treated leniently if he was scared of the consequences of not raping, or if he was too "aggressive to not rape."

Similarly, an innocent bystander should not be treated leniently if they were "too scared of the consequences of doing something, or "too cowardly" to do anything.

Human flaws are human flaws. They go in both directions. Society only makes an irrational distinction between choosing "to do" and choosing "not to do" because it's a convenient excuse for moral indecency and sitting on your ass.

I choose "not to help the poor." I'm not responsible for their poverty. I choose "not to stop paying low wages," but "it's not my fault their family can't afford health insurance. I choose "not to stop the government," but it's not my fault they trample over our rights.

Really, we can't pick and choose with how we analyze situations, is what I'm saying. The actions of every person in this rape case allowed a women to get raped. If an injustice occurs where we can say "if X had made another choice it would not have happened," then that person is guilty.

This won't sit well with most people. It means we're all guilty of terrible things. That's just the way things are. The consequences are the same. You either make the right choice or you don't, and somebody pays the consequences.

[bcbm]

And I think it is so typical that the rapers "were wearing bulletproof vests and [were] flanked by deputies" in court and that people (not only here!) suggest they need help. Sorry, but bullshit! The only person who needs help, protection, attention, psychological care and our sympathy is the girl! Something is really really wrong with a system in which the criminals are presented as some kind of victims themselves!

i don't believe that humans are complete monsters who will wantonly rape at the slightest provocation. something in the social environments we've created forms people in such a way that they can do these things and, in this sense, they are victims in need of help. obviously they should be held personally responsible for their actions and denied their freedom for some time, but to suggest that ideas of help and rehabilitation have no place in that is troubling. i think the sort of "fucking scum (though they are), lock em up and throw away the key and hey let's piss on them while we're at it" mentality is reactionary. while it satisfies some basic emotional urge, the reality is that when these people get out in 10-15 years there is a good chance they will be more violent and anti-social. how does that help anyone?

[Hiero]

No, I would suggest intensive psychotherapy. Although, i wouldn't be opposed to giving him a few years in the pen.

There may not be a deep psychological problem as the cause. Some may have had a history of sexual abuse that made it easier to act in this case.

However my point was that these children acted in the place of others, thoose who could not act, that there is an underlying structure of ideas of sexual fantasy, domination, violent desires that run through society. Only certian people will act out these desires, which is why these acts are scarce by quite common to all societies so far. So focusing on the individual is actually counter productive unless you are going to dwell deep into an understanding of the desires society.

In this cases the actors acted out the sado-masochist desire of unrestrained collective sex upon a victim.Which western society has a long cultural history, it can be seen in alot of literature.

This isn't to trivalise the eomtional stress of the victim, ofcourse there is a personal trauma of the even and of course the victim her is going to need some long term therapy.

But in this case we often act as a audience, like in the amphitheatre for such events through the modern media.

[WhitemageofDOOM]

People aren't rocks that obey physical laws no matter what. Each one of those people could have easily done the right thing.

Humans aren't rocks no, but they are matter. And matter cannot disobey the laws of physics. I can no more disobey my programming as i could lift a ten ton rock, nor can you.
Being the smartest creature on the face of this earth doesn't mean we get to magically ignore millions of years of evolution.


I would not watch a women get raped and do nothing.Yes, you would. That's what this being normal behavior means. You are not special, unique or better. Any sin man can commit is one you can and would commit.
Trying to distance yourself from that reality doesn't make you a better person, just a more hateful one.


If the majority of people selected at random are incapable of intervening when a rape is in progress, why would anyone be a communist? We need to be careful about using science to justify irrational positions.Because democracy is more efficient than tyranny? Because a more free and equal society is going to have this sort of shit crop up less often?
Irrationality is the denial of reality.


Give them all the psychological help they need. If we can figure out a way to make a decent citizen out of them, release them.They are decent human beings.

Theirs more important things than punishing these people for our sense of vengence. Namely making sure this kind of shit never happens again, and no amount of punishment is going to stop rape, changes in cultural context however can.

[Coggeh]

Humans aren't rocks no, but they are matter. And matter cannot disobey the laws of physics. I can no more disobey my programming as i could lift a ten ton rock, nor can you.
Being the smartest creature on the face of this earth doesn't mean we get to magically ignore millions of years of evolution.

Being related to the ape does not mean we have to behave like one .

[proudcomrade]

I can't possibly be the only one here growing tired of Revleft threads repeatedly defending and/or empathizing with rapists. I certainly don't wonder why the tiny of handful of women who register to this site, usually vanish as fast as they got here.

[bcbm]

I can't possibly be the only one here growing tired of Revleft threads repeatedly defending and/or empathizing with rapists. I certainly don't wonder why the tiny of handful of women who register to this site, usually vanish as fast as they got here.

no one is defending them or really even empathizing with them but rather pointing out that their crime, like most crimes, is caused by social conditions and that it is possible for them to be rehabilitated. certainly no one is saying there should not be any action taken against them or any restrictions or anything of that sort and obviously care for the victim is the primary concern. but anyway, if you want to argue over how to deal with rape, let's have that discussion instead of just dumbing down what is being said for some emotional appeal.

[Saorsa]

They are decent human beings.

No, they're not. There may be a whole host of reasons behind why they did what they did (everything from a sexist culture to the possibility they were abused as children), but that doesn't excuse it. I don't understand how you can even write those words.

Deep down I want nothing more than to see rapists suffer. I wish they would experience even a fraction of the pain and fear they're victims now have to endure for the rest of their lives. But thinking about it rationally, not just letting the blood red mist cloud our eyes and our judgement, most rapists probably can be rehabilitated. They can be given psychological treatment and in a more sane and humane culture could probably reintegrate into society. Some can't, and need to be seperated, but to call for these kids to be executed isn't the right way to go about it.

And anyone who calls for rapists to be raped is a douchebag. I'm sorry, but rape is horrible no matter who's doing it or why. It's inexcusable to advocate it being done to anyone.

[Dooga Aetrus Blackrazor]

Humans aren't rocks no, but they are matter. And matter cannot disobey the laws of physics. I can no more disobey my programming as i could lift a ten ton rock, nor can you.
Being the smartest creature on the face of this earth doesn't mean we get to magically ignore millions of years of evolution.

Yes, you would. That's what this being normal behavior means. You are not special, unique or better. Any sin man can commit is one you can and would commit.
Trying to distance yourself from that reality doesn't make you a better person, just a more hateful one.

Because democracy is more efficient than tyranny? Because a more free and equal society is going to have this sort of shit crop up less often?
Irrationality is the denial of reality.

They are decent human beings.

Theirs more important things than punishing these people for our sense of vengence. Namely making sure this kind of shit never happens again, and no amount of punishment is going to stop rape, changes in cultural context however can.


So you would watch a women being raped and do nothing? That's normal "human" behavior? Is that the claim you're making here? The issue of punishment isn't what's important. The issue is that people shouldn't watch a rape in progress. And biology does not support that they would. They are fully capable of acting differently.

The majority of people, if witnessing a rape, are fully capable of opposing it. Even if some of them aren't, if they had been raised in a better way, by a better society, they would have been capable of opposing it. Humans are not genetically predisposed to passively allow rape to occur. Nor does our current society make all people predisposed to act in such a way.

Frankly, you accusing me being a person who would passively watch a women be raped is insulting. Especially considering you said it is "human" behavior. You're accusing everyone here at revleft of being a person who would watch a women get raped, and do nothing?

There is nothing inherent about human nature that, in any society, 99% of people witnessing a rape in progress will do nothing.

"Any sin man can commit is one you can and would commit."

If Jake can kill 700 children, I "could" kill 700 children. I certainly "would NOT" do that. What exactly are you saying here?

[The Red Next Door]

Hope some bubba in prison treats them to a cock meat sandwich in the ass.

**NOTE**

I said this in the heat of the moment. I don't mean it. So for all of you who got offended, don't act so damned superior.
funny:lol:

[The Red Next Door]

They need to fucking die, Let shove a bomb up their asses and which them become human chiltitlings.

[WhitemageofDOOM]

So you would watch a women being raped and do nothing? That's normal "human" behavior? Is that the claim you're making here? The issue of punishment isn't what's important. The issue is that people shouldn't watch a rape in progress. And biology does not support that they would. They are fully capable of acting differently.

The majority of people, if witnessing a rape, are fully capable of opposing it. Even if some of them aren't, if they had been raised in a better way, by a better society, they would have been capable of opposing it. Humans are not genetically predisposed to passively allow rape to occur. Nor does our current society make all people predisposed to act in such a way.

Frankly, you accusing me being a person who would passively watch a women be raped is insulting. Especially considering you said it is "human" behavior. You're accusing everyone here at revleft of being a person who would watch a women get raped, and do nothing?

There is nothing inherent about human nature that, in any society, 99% of people witnessing a rape in progress will do nothing.

"Any sin man can commit is one you can and would commit."

If Jake can kill 700 children, I "could" kill 700 children. I certainly "would NOT" do that. What exactly are you saying here?

I'm saying that the bystander effect is a studied predictable aspect of human behavior. It is a psychological fact. The more people that witness a crime the less likely anyone is to intervene. So anyone here is very likely to intervene in a rape if no one else is there, but throw a crowd of 50 people in and we aren't going to intervene. That's reality.

If your insulted by reality, well too bad. Reality doesn't give a shit what you think, and nothing is gained by denying it. We need to accept reality and adapt to it, or adapt it to us however currently we can't casually rewrite the human psyche so we are just going to have to adapt to the reality of the bystander effect until we can.

[Dooga Aetrus Blackrazor]

I'm saying that the bystander effect is a studied predictable aspect of human behavior. It is a psychological fact. The more people that witness a crime the less likely anyone is to intervene. So anyone here is very likely to intervene in a rape if no one else is there, but throw a crowd of 50 people in and we aren't going to intervene. That's reality.

If your insulted by reality, well too bad. Reality doesn't give a shit what you think, and nothing is gained by denying it. We need to accept reality and adapt to it, or adapt it to us however currently we can't casually rewrite the human psyche so we are just going to have to adapt to the reality of the bystander effect until we can.

Some people don't seem to obey the Bystander effect. Otherwise, we would see examples of it far more often. Are they going to obey it if 50 more people are watching? Or are some people just actually doing the right thing?

Psychology doesn't excuse people from being responsible for an action either. I'm not going to generalize a psychological effect tested on other people to myself. Why would I do that?

Also, there are factors concerning proximity (the rape was right in front of them) and time (it occurred over a period of time). Even if we want to use the Bystander Effect to account for certain behavior, I'm not sure it's appropriate in this case.

Furthermore, being aware of the bystander effect and the moral obligations involved in this issue likely makes it easier to act rightly. These people were likely of poor caliber to begin with.

Maybe it's because I have depression and my mental states are a little out of sync, but I just don't get it. I'll change my mind and say the majority of people wouldn't do anything if they saw a rape.

However, I just can't see myself doing nothing. I might chicken out, but I'd certainly call the police. I still think I'd even get involved physically. I wouldn't be much help there, though.

Really, the majority of posters at revleft, who have a better understanding of social justice, are going to submit to this effect? Nothing about being politically aware, leftist, empathetic, etc, is going to influence the results?

I'm fine with determinism, but I find it difficult to see how social influences wouldn't drastically change the significance of this effect.

[9]

@WhitemageofDOOM:

Contrary to your assertion that the "bystander effect" is "a fact", it is actually a very controversial 'theory' with an absurdly tiny body of evidence to support it.
And in fact, it seems to go against common sense as well. If somebody pulls out a gun and shoots someone else in a crowded mall, I'd say there is a far better chance that people will collectively bring the shooter down than someone in an empty alleyway who witnesses somebody getting shot.
To suggest that people who participate in gang raping a fifteen year old girl are absolved from any responsibility for their actions because of some poorly-corroborated crackpot psychology theory is really very pathetic.

[Dean]

It's very disheartening to see such a litany of voices who seem to think that rape is not infact caused by social conditions, and somehow arises from moral failings which only stem from the individuals who exercise the act. One could almost foget the decidedly social context of the act, that is a gang rape.

Truly, the crime is inexcusable and I don't know that there is any set standard to define rehabilitation or a decent length of imprisonment. But simply disassociating ourselves from this distinct social and moral failing will not enlighten and empower the social response to the problems of rape and dominance, but rather profoundly weaken our social-psychological understanding and prevention tactics.

No leftist, or indeed any person seriously interested in revolutionizing society towards an egalitarian, scientific orientation should take on the dismissive, reactive tone which is highly present in this thread.

They may not be "decent human beings." But they are human beings, and any communist worth his/her salt ought to know damn well that the end of all social-economic activity ought to be mankind as a whole. Therefore, I see no reason why we should start to prune the tree of humankind itself, but rather provide different services for those parts of our population who cannot live peaceably with others. As far as I'm concerned, the dismissive, emotive response in this thread serves none of these purposes; being more disgusted by the moral failings of some humans doesn't instantly devalue their lives.

[9]

^I'm frankly more bothered by the preponderance of people playing rape apologist here than I am about the people who think its reprehensible. Honestly, I don't really understand why this "let's all hug and hold hands" attitude doesn't seem to be present here when issues like racism, fascism, Islamophobia, anti-Semitism, homophobia etc. come up. I wonder, if the group responsible for this rape had beat the shit out of a black kid or a gay male rather than raped a girl, would anyone here be arguing that "well...you see, the bystander effect is a scientific fact, and these racists are decent human beings, and we would all have done the same thing in their shoes!"? No. But for some reason, when it comes to abuse against women, there is this "boys will be boys" attitude where people are tripping over each other to justify the actions of rapists.

And if you are referring to my comment when you say "a litany of voices who think rape is not caused by social conditions", I never suggested that "social conditions" don't play a role in rape, they obviously do. However, "social conditions" play just as much of a role in racism, fascism, Islamophobia, anti-Semitism, etc. and yet we don't pretend that this excuses racists, fascists, Islamophobes, anti-Semites, etc. or that they're "decent human beings" or that they're therefore absolved of any responsibility for their disgusting views/actions, and no one would even think about making such a statement in a thread about an act of group violence against an ethnic/religious minority.

[bcbm]

However, "social conditions" play just as much of a role in racism, fascism, Islamophobia, anti-Semitism, etc. and yet we don't pretend that this excuses racists, fascists, Islamophobes, anti-Semites, etc. or that they're "decent human beings" or that they're therefore absolved of any responsibility for their disgusting views/actions, and no one would even think about making such a statement in a thread about an act of group violence against an ethnic/religious minority. i don't think anyone is absolving people of personal responsibility, at least not that i've seen. if we were talking about some nazis beating an immigrant, i would propose more or less the same solution to dealing with them. just because someone is repugnant now doesn't mean they're beyond help and i don't see the benefit of answering barbarism with barbarism in a society that creates so many damaged individuals.

[Glenn Beck]

Can we not have a fucking shitstorm in here? Out of respect for the victim at least?

[9]

i don't think anyone is absolving people of personal responsibility, at least not that i've seen. if we were talking about some nazis beating an immigrant, i would propose more or less the same solution to dealing with them. just because someone is repugnant now doesn't mean they're beyond help and i don't see the benefit of answering barbarism with barbarism in a society that creates so many damaged individuals.

I'm certainly sympathetic to what you are saying; my irritation was not in response to proposals for rehabilitation. It was in response to the blurring of the line between advocating rehabilitation and excusing rape as something beyond anyone's control. For example, see here:



Originally Posted by WhitemageofDOOM http://www.revleft.com/vb/revleft/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showthread.php?p=1586339#post1586339)



People aren't rocks that obey physical laws no matter what. Each one of those people could have easily done the right thing.Humans aren't rocks no, but they are matter. And matter cannot disobey the laws of physics. I can no more disobey my programming as i could lift a ten ton rock, nor can you.
Being the smartest creature on the face of this earth doesn't mean we get to magically ignore millions of years of evolution.



I would not watch a women get raped and do nothing. Yes, you would. That's what this being normal behavior means. You are not special, unique or better. Any sin man can commit is one you can and would commit.
Trying to distance yourself from that reality doesn't make you a better person, just a more hateful one.



Give them all the psychological help they need. If we can figure out a way to make a decent citizen out of them, release them.They are decent human beings.I just find this defense of rapists and rape inexcusable. It is one thing to analyze the conditions that lead a bunch of teens and twenty-year-old's to believe they are entitled to rape a 15-year-old girl. It is another thing entirely to bastardize materialism in order to suggest that rapists are "decent human beings" who deserve to take no responsibility for raping a girl because they had to rape her because the law of physics said so (:rolleyes:), thus providing a validation for rape. Or in other words, everyone go rape a girl, you cannot be held accountable for your own actions, it's in your "programming" and you can no more disobey your "programming" than you can lift a ten ton rock, so pick a girl and have at it, the law of physics absolves you.

[Искра]

What kind of idiot can approve such things or try to excuse idiots who did it?
Go and drink your pills and then comment again... Gang rape is not funny, nor amusing, and you can't justify it. When it comes to gang raping 15 year old girl only thing that they should get is castration with "the rusty spoon".

[Invader Zim]

Courts are a joke. I don't mean some metaphysical entity, of course. I'm simply trying to use a metaphor to illustrate their role.

Consider scenario X:

John rapes a women.
A women will be raped if John does nothing.

Either way, John performs an action. Either he acts in his decision to do nothing, or he acts in his decision to rape. Either way, his choices are responsible for the result. A women got raped. Every "innocent" bystander to an offense is guilty.
This logic exhonerates the rapists because it implies that the bystanders are as moraly responcible as the rapists themselves. I don't buy that. While certainly they are certainly guilty of something; they cannot be held accountable for the rape itself.


But for some reason, when it comes to abuse against women, there is this "boys will be boys" attitude where people are tripping over each other to justify the actions of rapists.

Where has anyone done that? Have I missed something?