Drug policy in chaos after adviser is sacked

[Havet]

The Sunday Telegraph understands that members of the Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs (ACMD) have been discussing a number of options to protest against the removal of their chairman, Professor Nutt, by Alan Johnson, the Home Secretary.

A mass resignation is believed to be among the tactics being considered by the 30 unpaid members, including some of the country's leading doctors, psychiatrists, chemists and charity workers, who advise ministers on the harmfulness of drugs so that penalties can be set proportionately.

Link (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/lawandorder/6475239/Drug-policy-in-chaos-after-adviser-is-sacked.html)

Basically, to sum this up:

The governments chief drug advisor got fired for saying ecstacy is safer than horseriding and cannabis is safer than alcohol and tobacco (naturally I agree on the later (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyzlxzBXMJ4))

But theres a big shitstorm, cause it was a kind of "if im going, im taking you all with me scenario", so now other science advisors are threatening to quit
and the government is afraid of looking incompetent, cause they're going against their chief science advisor.

[ls]

I found this good and hilarious, look at other things like the mass resignation of somerset councillors, even the politicians are tired of this shit really.

[Jazzratt]

It's a fucking disgrace that he was sacked in the first place. Then again I don't really see the point in the government having science advisors since they never pay them the slightest bit of attention when making laws.

[Robert]

Interesting. Richard Nixon appointed a commission in 1972 to study marijuana, which recommended its decriminalization, and then he refused to even read the report never mind decriminalize pot.


1972 report, entitled "Marihuana: A Signal of Misunderstanding," boldly proclaimed that "neither the marihuana user nor the drug itself can be said to constitute a danger to public safety" and recommended Congress and state legislatures decriminalize the use and casual distribution of marijuana for personal use. http://norml.org/index.cfm?Group_ID=5049
What are the penalties for simple possession of a user amount of marijuana in the UK? What about cocaine, heroin and meth? Does the penalty increase for repeat offenders? Hmmm. Maybe I can find it: wow, marijuana is a class B drug that carries a possible 5-year stretch for possession? http://blogs.findlaw.com/solicitor/2009/10/drug-laws-in-the-uk-marijuana-for-medical-use.html Presumably heroin is class A. What could a class C be? Kat? Valium? Codeine?

[Demogorgon]

There is no way that someone would get five years just for possession. A first time offender would be unlucky even to get prosecuted, so it isn't quite as bad as it looks.

However drug policy is still outrageous and the stupidity of the Government lately is very much a case in point. Reclassifying it to Class B against all recommendations and evidence for no reason other than to please the right wing media is evidence of a very broken approach to the issue.

[rebelmouse]

in Serbia they treat marijuana as any hard drugs, so people can get one year prison if police catch them. governments are not here to help to society, they are here to rule and make prisons full. therefore people must organize and fight. rulers are organized, we are not, therefore we loose every fight.

[Havet]

Interesting. Richard Nixon appointed a commission in 1972 to study marijuana, which recommended its decriminalization, and then he refused to even read the report never mind decriminalize pot.

What are the penalties for simple possession of a user amount of marijuana in the UK? What about cocaine, heroin and meth? Does the penalty increase for repeat offenders? Hmmm. Maybe I can find it: wow, marijuana is a class B drug that carries a possible 5-year stretch for possession? http://blogs.findlaw.com/solicitor/2009/10/drug-laws-in-the-uk-marijuana-for-medical-use.html Presumably heroin is class A. What could a class C be? Kat? Valium? Codeine?

Here's a graph

http://www.mapinc.org/lib/LancetFigure1.gif

[Demogorgon]

What is that graph showing exactly? I am presuming it is harmfulness, but what is the measurement?

[Havet]

What is that graph showing exactly? I am presuming it is harmfulness, but what is the measurement?

It is showing the mean harm of the drugs.

I too looked for the source, but it seems to be strict access in scientific circles.

Nevertheless:

http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=18592490

Here the full article is for free, but you have to register...

http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(07)60464-4/abstract


We developed and explored the feasibility of the use of a nine-category matrix of harm, with an expert delphic procedure, to assess the harms of a range of illicit drugs in an evidence-based fashion.

[Robert]

Interesting that methamphetamine is not on the graph at all (it's not exactly the same as amphetamine, which is on the graph), whereas "4-MTA" is a class A that I have never heard of in the USA. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4-Methylthioamphetamine

Appears it's a dance scene drug like ecstasy, but it isn't even regulated federally or in any state except Wisconsin. http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/4mta/4mta_law.shtml

Do you Brits take 4-MTA when you're disco-ing the night away? Come on, you lot, let's hear it!

"Y - M - T - A"!

[danyboy27]

It's a fucking disgrace that he was sacked in the first place. Then again I don't really see the point in the government having science advisors since they never pay them the slightest bit of attention when making laws.

well they need advisor just in case they discover something that will suit their goal IE: drug make your penis fall down.

[johhy one two]

i dont know you guys i herd ecstasy turns people in to sex manics.I saw a program on it.
I dont want people making love to my cat or something each to there own and all that but its scary enough walking around these days:crying:

[Havet]

i dont know you guys i herd ecstasy turns people in to sex manics.I saw a program on it.
I dont want people making love to my cat or something each to there own and all that but its scary enough walking around these days:crying:

Lol

Extasy has a documented effect of increasing sociability and empathy. For instance, it is usually used in dubious bars by sex predators, who insert the pill in the glass of a drink while their victim is non suspicious.

The effect the pill has is precisely on turning the victim more open and empathic towards the aggressor, who will find less resistance when raping him/her.

[danyboy27]

Lol

Extasy has a documented effect of increasing sociability and empathy. For instance, it is usually used in dubious bars by sex predators, who insert the pill in the glass of a drink while their victim is non suspicious.

The effect the pill has is precisely on turning the victim more open and empathic towards the aggressor, who will find less resistance when raping him/her.

fail.

its not extasy, its GHB you are talking about.
GHB cause that+memory loss.
extasy cause hypersensibility.

[Robert]

i herd ecstasy turns people in to sex manics.

I heard that, too. But it's a lie. Trust me. :(

[Havet]

fail.

its not extasy, its GHB you are talking about.
GHB cause that+memory loss.
extasy cause hypersensibility.

No, i'm actually talking of MDMA

Here's a list of the effects:

POSITIVE


mild to extreme mood lift, euphoria
increased willingness to communicate
increase in energy (stimulation)
ego softening
Decreased fear, anxiety, and insecurities
neurotically-based-fear dissolution
feelings of comfort, belonging, and closeness to others
feelings of love and empathy
forgiveness of self and others
a sense of inner peace and acceptance of self, others, and the world
increased awareness & appreciation of music
increased awareness of senses. (eating, drinking, smell)
increased pleasure from the sense of touch and being touched
profound life-changing spiritual experiences
sensations bright and intense
urge to hug and kiss people
analgesia, anti-nocioception, decreased pain perception


NEUTRAL


appetite loss
visual distortion
rapid, involuntary eye jiggling (nystagmus)
mild visual hallucinations (uncommon)
moderately increased heart rate and blood pressure (increases with dose)
restlessness, nervousness, shivering
change in body temperature regulation
upwellings of unexpected emotion, emotional lability
strong desire to do or want more when coming down


NEGATIVE

(negative side effects increase with higher doses and frequent use)
inappropriate and/or unintended emotional bonding
anxiety or paranoia (less common than opposite)
agitation (less common than opposite)
tendency to say things you might feel uncomfortable about later
mild to extreme jaw clenching (trisma), tongue and cheek chewing, and teeth grinding (bruxia) (http://www.erowid.org/psychoactives/health/health_jaw-tension.shtml)
difficulty concentrating & problems with activities requiring linear focus
short-term memory scramble or loss & confusion
muscle tension
insomnia, inability to fall asleep when physically tired
erectile disfunction and difficulty reaching orgasm
increase in body temperature, hyperthermia, dehydration (drink water)
hyponatremia (http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/mdma/mdma_health_water.shtml) (don't drink too much water)
nausea and vomiting
headaches, dizziness, loss of balance, and vertigo
sadness on coming down, sense of loss or immediate nostalgia
post-trip Crash (http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/mdma/mdma_effects2.shtml) - unpleasantly harsh comedown from the peak effect
hangover (http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/mdma/mdma_effects_hangover1.shtml) the next day, lasting days to weeks
mild depression and fatigue for up to a week
severe depression and/or fatigue (uncommon)
possible strong urge to repeat the experience, though not physically addictive
possible psychological crisis requiring hospitalization (psychotic episodes, severe panic attacks, etc) (rare)
possible liver toxicity (rare)
possible neurotoxicity (http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/mdma/mdma_neurotoxicity.shtml) (controversial)
small risk of death. Approximately 2 per 100,000 users have extreme negative reactions resulting in death. (rare)


I bolded and underlined the parts of relevance

Source (http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/mdma/mdma_effects.shtml)

[Robert]

its not extasy, its GHB you are talking about. I see Hayenmill demurs, but notice that GHB (a class C drug) is considered less harmful than marijuana (class B) in Hayenmill's graph!

That isn't true in the states, btw. Simple possession of a user amount of GHB and just about any drug is a federal misdemeanor, but a state jail felony. Marijuana possession (use amount) is now a misdemeanor in every jurisdiction I know of.

[danyboy27]

but wouldnt be more advantageous to use ghb? it cause severe memory losses.

[Havet]

I see Hayenmill demurs, but notice that GHB (a class C drug) is considered less harmful than marijuana (class B) in Hayenmill's graph!

That isn't true in the states, btw. Simple possession of a user amount of GHB and just about any drug is a federal misdemeanor, but a state jail felony. Marijuana possession (use amount) is now a misdemeanor in every jurisdiction I know of.

The point of showing the graph was to show exactly how flawed it was and why it required a change in policy

[Havet]

but wouldnt be more advantageous to use ghb? it cause severe memory losses.

Depends actually. Ectasy can cause memory loss as well

I think it all depends on the price of either ectasy or GHB

[Oneironaut]

That graph seems to be complete shit. How the hell are they even trying to argue that ectasy is safer than pot? I don't know how ectasy is manufactured where ever they took these results but where I am from it is cut dirty to make a larger profit. Around here it is usually cut with amphetamines giving you the uppety boost that is so fun, but i try to stay away from amphetamines because I find them verrry addictive, at least for me.

[Havet]

That graph seems to be complete shit. How the hell are they even trying to argue that ectasy is safer than pot? I don't know how ectasy is manufactured where ever they took these results but where I am from it is cut dirty to make a larger profit. Around here it is usually cut with amphetamines giving you the uppety boost that is so fun, but i try to stay away from amphetamines because I find them verrry addictive, at least for me.

Ok, there seems to be some confusion with the graph

Arbitrary ranking

CURRENT DRUG CLASSIFICATION

Class A



Cocaine/crack
Heroin
Ecstasy
LSD
Magic mushrooms
Crystal meth (pending)

Class A/B


Amphetamines

Class C


Cannabis
Ketamine



The researchers said the current ABC system was too arbitrary, and failed to give specific information about the relative risks of each drug.

It also gave too much importance to unusual reactions, which would only affect a tiny number of users.
Professor Nutt said people were not deterred by scare messages, which simply served to undermine trust in warnings about the danger of drugs.

He said: "The current system is not fit for purpose. Let's treat people as adults. We should have a much more considered debate how we deal with dangerous drugs."
He highlighted the fact that one person a week in the UK dies from alcohol poisoning, while less than 10 deaths a year are linked to ecstasy use.

Professor Blakemore said it was clear that current drugs' policies were not working.

"We face a huge problem. Illegal substances have never been more easily available, or more widely abused."
He said the beauty of the new system, unlike the current version, was that it could easily be updated to reflect new research.

Professor Leslie Iversen, a member of the Academy of Medical Sciences group considering drug policy, said the new system was a "landmark paper".

He said: "It is a real step towards evidence-based classification of drugs."

Professor Iversen said the fact that 500,000 young people routinely took ecstasy every weekend proved that current drug policy was in need of reform.


Source (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/low/health/6474053.stm)

[Jazzratt]

That graph seems to be complete shit. How the hell are they even trying to argue that ectasy is safer than pot? I don't know how ectasy is manufactured where ever they took these results but where I am from it is cut dirty to make a larger profit.Around here it is usually cut with amphetamines giving you the uppety boost that is so fun, but i try to stay away from amphetamines because I find them verrry addictive, at least for me.

I presume that these results were made using lab quality stuff not just whatever shit they happened to score off some random. As hilarious as the concept of a selection of pasty scientist types in a stereotypical drug dealer's place is. What they were dealing with is probably purer than street shit (but perhaps not all that much more pure (http://www.viceland.com/issues/v12n4/htdocs/cut.php/)). With that taken into account I guess that the ecstasy came up less harmful.

[Havet]

UPDATE:Scientists quit government drugs body over David Nutt sacking (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article6898456.ece)


Two members of the Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs quit yesterday in protest at Alan Johnson’s dismissal of David Nutt in a row over the relative harm caused by drugs and alcohol.

Les King, an expert chemist, was the first to resign. He said that the Home Secretary had denied Professor Nutt his right to free speech and called for the council to become truly independent of politicians. He was swiftly followed by Marion Walker, a pharmacist and clinical director with the substance misuse service at the Berkshire Healthcare NHS Foundation Trust.

http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/9821/eyes1638096a.jpg

Posters from a government campaign against drug-driving warn motorists that their eyes will give them away if they take cannabis or Ecstasy

[Oneironaut]

I presume that these results were made using lab quality stuff not just whatever shit they happened to score off some random. As hilarious as the concept of a selection of pasty scientist types in a stereotypical drug dealer's place is. What they were dealing with is probably purer than street shit (but perhaps not all that much more pure (http://www.viceland.com/issues/v12n4/htdocs/cut.php/)). With that taken into account I guess that the ecstasy came up less harmful.

I suppose, yes. I've always wondered how safe ectasy actually is if it could be regulated to standards.