Okay...now what. [Archive]

Luisrah

31st October 2009, 18:30

Well, I don't think you will have much sucess if you talk to them in a suit and tie.

And if you start right away talking about marxism and class struggle, they may think you're a snot nosed fool who has strange theories.

But if you approach them humbly, and discuss with them that the situation can not continue like this, and there while they are struggling for a piece of food, there's 10 people that are billions of times richer than them and waster all their money, they may start to agree with you.

And THEN you start talking about marxism, that things should change, talk about how there are countries where a revolution happened and no one sleeps on the street etc.
I for example always tell people that there should be a revolution like there was in 1974 in my country. A socialist revolution overthrew a fascist regime, and democracy was restored. But a counter-coup happened and blew the whole thing though there were nationalisations and land reforms.

And of course, tell them that the Communist or Socialist party in your country defends all that you told them, and you can be sure they will vote for it.

Bill Hadnot

31st October 2009, 18:51

I'ts nice to have a newspaper to give people that has this at the very beginning:

Three Main Points
by Bob Avakian, Chairman of the RCP,USA.

What do we in the Revolutionary Communist Party want people to learn from all that is exposed and revealed in this newspaper? Mainly, three things:

1) The whole system we now live under is based on exploitation—here and all over the world. It is completely worthless and no basic change for the better can come about until this system is overthrown.

2) Many different groups will protest and rebel against things this system does, and these protests and rebellions should be supported and strengthened. Yet it is only those with nothing to lose but their chains who can be the backbone of a struggle to actually overthrow this system and create a new system that will put an end to exploitation and help pave the way to a whole new world.

3) Such a revolutionary struggle is possible. There is a political Party that can lead such a struggle, a political Party that speaks and acts for those with nothing to lose but their chains: The Revolutionary Communist Party, USA.

This Party has the vision, the program, the leadership, and the organizational principles to unite those who must be united and enable them to do what must be done. There is a challenge for all those who would like to see such a revolution, those with a burning desire to see a drastic change for the better, all those who dare to dream and to act to bring about a completely new and better world: Support this Party, join this Party, spread its message and its organized strength, and prepare the ground for a revolutionary rising that has a solid basis and a real chance of winning.
----

But, of course it's very sad that the most in-depth and correct understanding of the nature of the capitalist system and what needs to be done to eliminate it is also put forth by a group who believe the nonsense that Bob Avakian is genetically superior to the rest of us, and that he can't possibly teach us all that he knows in reagards to making a successful revolution, even those whom he's been teaching for decades. So... I still use Revolution newspaper and the RCP as a model of what needs to be done, but always work in my criticisms of the party. Without the newspaper and party it'd be much harder to properly approach people about these subjects...and certainly there wouldn't be much for people to organize around and meaningfully contribute to.

As for homeless people and I include here all who've experienced it, we are the only ones I'd fully trust as leaders within the vanguard. I don't trust a Marxist in a suit, tie, or car (with some exceptions here) any more than I trust a capitalist.

Muzk

31st October 2009, 20:37

I don't trust a Marxist in a suit, tie, or car (with some exceptions here) any more than I trust a capitalist.

I totally agree with you. They have something to lose.

The exceptions of those people... it's strange why there are people who would have to give up on a lot of priviliges caused by capitalism... Those are the real selfless people, the ones with the true love for mankind

Honestly, don't we all have something to lose?

Right now, I might as well study and stick to the system, and then some day get a nice job.

You know what? I'm lazy, I want socialism now, I don't want to be looking for a job, write thousands of applications, and then work 8 hours a day for some rich bastards...

I'd rather work for the people than for some rich bastard, and get the security of a society based on collectivism :wub:

I'm desperately waiting for socialism... Argh... wish I was born like, maybe 100 years later:mad:

Spawn of Stalin

31st October 2009, 21:27

I totally agree with you. They have something to lose.

The exceptions of those people... it's strange why there are people who would have to give up on a lot of priviliges caused by capitalism... Those are the real selfless people, the ones with the true love for mankind
I disagree, I am quite sure that if we abolished capitalism we would still have cars and suits, these are hardly luxury items, for many people they are necessities. Now I don't trust a Marxist who owns a factory and drives a Bentley, but not trusting someone based on the fact that they wear a suit and drive a car? It just seems a little hysterical to me. By these standards we shouldn't even trust Marx himself, don't get me started on Engels, that guy had money coming out of his ears.

Muzk

31st October 2009, 21:38

Spawn of Stalin

31st October 2009, 21:53

I don't think there need to be exceptions because everyone should have the right to look nice occasionally, or to drive themselves somewhere.

Luisrah

31st October 2009, 22:01

By these standards we shouldn't even trust Marx himself, don't get me started on Engels, that guy had money coming out of his ears.

Why shouldn't we trust Marx?

Wasn't he having problems to survive, and it was Engels who had to give him some money?

I know that Engels had a factory or was already pretty rich, but wasn't Marx poor?

Muzk

31st October 2009, 22:07

I don't think there need to be exceptions because everyone should have the right to look nice occasionally, or to drive themselves somewhere.

Didn't you read?! Exceptions as in rich people willing to fight for the poor, and eventually giving up all their priviliges for a better society -_-

anyways, thinking because someone is privileged doesn't mean they can't be revolutionary, or poor people liberals, there are some more factors determining such things, but let dialecticians think about those things <_>

Spawn of Stalin

31st October 2009, 22:09

Why shouldn't we trust Marx?

Wasn't he having problems to survive, and it was Engels who had to give him some money?

I know that Engels had a factory or was already pretty rich, but wasn't Marx poor?
Alright maybe I went a bit over the top saying we shouldn't trust Marx.

Didn't you read?! Exceptions as in rich people willing to fight for the poor, and eventually giving up all their priviliges for a better society -_-
You don't have to be rich to own a car or a suit, that's all I'm saying pal. I don't think that if you can afford a car you necessarily have something to lose.

CELMX

31st October 2009, 22:33

And of course, tell them that the Communist or Socialist party in your country defends all that you told them, and you can be sure they will vote for it.

Well, btpound, I'm not sure if you live in the U.S. or not, but if you do, don't tell them to vote for the CPUSA! Our communist party is kinda fucked up, and it is actually moving away...FAAAr away...from any communist ideology. I don't even think it deserves to be called communist.
Same w/ Socialist Party.
IWW is far better.

I agree with these other comrades to speak with them humbly, and with simple language. Don't try to act too intelligent. They may think differently if you do. I bet they would be really happy if you had lunch with them (on you, of course:)) and talked with them over food.

Luisrah

31st October 2009, 23:41

Well, btpound, I'm not sure if you live in the U.S. or not, but if you do, don't tell them to vote for the CPUSA! Our communist party is kinda fucked up, and it is actually moving away...FAAAr away...from any communist ideology. I don't even think it deserves to be called communist.
Same w/ Socialist Party.
IWW is far better.

I don't, I live in Portugal, and the PCP is marxist-leninist and is true to the marxist-leninist ideals.

In fact, it is the only party in which deputees (representatives in the national assembly, I hope you understand what I mean lol) have to sign a contract that makes their salary remain the same.
If you had a salary of 800 euros and the deputee salary was 1500, then you continue to earn 800, and the difference goes to the party.
If you had a salary of 2000 euros, you keep it, and the party pays you the difference.

I agree very much with it, and I think I don't have to explain why it's good.

The Portuguese Communist Party is communist alright.

blake 3:17

1st November 2009, 00:30

I was riding the bus the other day, and saw a gathering of homeless people on the street. They were being loud and rowdy, and i had the thought of, "what if I went over there and started talking to them about marxism?" But then I thought about, what if they agreed with me... then what?

Find out what they're doing. Talk to them. Don't do the missionary thing -- try listening and discussing political and social issues that they're engaged with and/or that you're engaged with.

If there are forms of mutual aid or political action by and for the very poor, go with it.

My question is two part, what do you tell someone to do if you convince them in socialist revolution, and what part can the homeless play in socialist revolution?

First off any social revolution should be prioritizing housing, food, education, health care and jobs for all. Poor people understand that it is stupid to be spending billions invading other countries for ;democracy' when they are treated like garbage.

It depends on circumstance and what's on offer. I'm not sure where you are, but I am assuming English North America. In Toronto, we have OCAP (http://ocap.ca/ ) one of the most amazing radical organizations fighting on behalf of the homeless, the unemployed, the disabled, the super exploited, and immigrants and refugees. It's highly political, includes homeless people as part of its leadership, and works in solidarity with the labour movement but not afraid to piss it off. Ther are some unique circumstances on how OCAP developed -- it's not a template for every poor persons organization.

Discussing radical ideas with people facing particularly severe forms of oppression is great. But, if their lives are so screwed up and dependent on hustling for bits of change, a place to stay, a meal or a bottle, it gets kind of stuck.

Basic political demands are probably around housing, social assistance, access to decent food and medical care, decriminalization of drugs, opposition to vagrancy laws, and normalization of immigration status.

Bill Hadnot

1st November 2009, 01:06

I disagree, I am quite sure that if we abolished capitalism we would still have cars and suits, these are hardly luxury items, for many people they are necessities. Now I don't trust a Marxist who owns a factory and drives a Bentley, but not trusting someone based on the fact that they wear a suit and drive a car? It just seems a little hysterical to me. By these standards we shouldn't even trust Marx himself, don't get me started on Engels, that guy had money coming out of his ears.

The only people who need cars are some disabled people and people who don't live in cities. I've lived my whole life just fine without a car, to say people need one is not going to work on me. If you own a suit try to sell it, or give it to someone who can't afford enough clothes. If you buy a suit instead of poor people clothes then you're immoral and selfish, you should buy poor people clothes and spend the excess to help those most in need and/or support the party. I don't mean to say that rich people can't come to understand the world correctly and become properly oriented for revolution, just that if they continue to want to live their lifestyle then they haven't come to the proper understanding and have no place in leadership within the party. And under socialism where we can produce cars and suits for all the people who want those things, then have fun, I'd hope you'd consider the environment and not get a car anyways though. And yes, we must live a thousand contradictions as communists under this rotten capitalist system, but we should work to minimize those contradictions to the greatest degree we can.

Kukulofori

1st November 2009, 06:29

Find out what they're doing. Talk to them. Don't do the missionary thing -- try listening and discussing political and social issues that they're engaged with and/or that you're engaged with.

If there are forms of mutual aid or political action by and for the very poor, go with it.

Yes, exactly this. Don't get them to help you, find out how you can help them and use the opportunity of working with them to spread your ideas of how socialism is the only final solution to homelessness.

The ISO here in Portland, OR organizes marches, and a lot of them, over healthcare reform. If you can get them involved in something like that, it's a good way to reach them as well.

Bill Hadnot

1st November 2009, 16:11

Yes, exactly this. Don't get them to help you, find out how you can help them and use the opportunity of working with them to spread your ideas of how socialism is the only final solution to homelessness.

The ISO here in Portland, OR organizes marches, and a lot of them, over healthcare reform. If you can get them involved in something like that, it's a good way to reach them as well.

You mean like the ones where you allow ruling class politicians who tell the homeless that they have to leave downtown to use your ISO equipment?
I can't post links, but you know what I'm talking about. I find it very ironic that the ISO in pdx would paint itself as poor-people friendly. I've never seen wealthier "socialists" in my life.

But, yes as revolutionaries our most meaningful work is with those who catch hell everyday under this rotten capitalist system. Wealthy people are not a waste of time, but groups like the ISO show you what happens when rich people selfishly not willing to give up their privlege discover certain truths..they get stuck on a ledge along the ascent of the intellectual mountain.

which doctor

1st November 2009, 16:17

I don't trust a Marxist in a suit, tie
Do you trust this one?

http://www.nndb.com/people/740/000029653/karl-marx-MED.jpg

Bill Hadnot

1st November 2009, 18:41

Invincible Summer

2nd November 2009, 01:00

Actually I've never even read much Marx and likely never will. Does one need read Darwin nowadays to understand evolution? I think it can even get in the way.
Yeah, you know how knowledge always gets in the way. Hell, I think I better stop taking atmospheric science classes because I don't need that shit to understand how to analyze a tephigram. In fact, I think my prof is hindering my understanding of it.

I don't think I'll get anyone to help me interpret some Dutch text that I've found. I think I get it anyway.

Do you see how arrogant you sound? Everyone can learn from reading Marx, Darwin, etc. We may think we understand things without actually reading sources on the topic, but can you say you really understand physics without taking courses in it, or at least doing extensive reading and practice?

Anyways, if those were the cheapest/most economical clothes that Marx had access to buy then he was acting morally...if he chose to pay more to the ruling class to pretty himself up for society then he was selfish and immoral for doing so.Although it's true that class society puts a great emphasis on dress in order to delineate the rich from poor, and that some of these formalities are unnecessary, it's quite a stretch to say it's "immoral" and "selfish."

Like it or not, appearances have to be kept to some degree. You wouldn't go on a date wearing your PJs. Wearing decent clothes, IMO, shows respect to those you are interacting with. It shows you are putting time into making yourself presentable for them. People don't necessarily buy decent/nice clothes so they can stare at themselves and go "ohhhh yeahhhhhh."

And yeah, some clothes are overpriced and "put more money into the ruling class." Well, so does buying a plane ticket to see your parents on the east coast; so does buying a car/bike/skateboard/roller blades/shoes/computer. Do you see where I'm going with this? Communism isn't against objects that are "bourgeois," but against the bourgeoisie. It is not against the products of labour (after all, they are the fruit of workers' labour), but against the conditions and exploitation in capitalist labour.

The people of the West (and other privileged folk) are fortunate to have these resources and goods. We should use it to our advantage, not shun them and decry them as evil bourgeois machinations or some stupid shit.

I don't follow any ideas dogmatically, my point about trust was in regards to leadership positions where there is no place for selfishness of any kind,Dude, Communism is for a lot of collective-things, but that doesn't mean you can't give yourself a bit of love sometimes. This isn't some Amish/Buddhist/whatever self-denial of the material shit.

but even more broadly, to know that there are parents in Haiti right now who're forced to feed their children cookies made of oil, sugar and dirt in an effort to survive, and then to go out and make a car payment to the ruling class when you have able legs and public transit options to get around like poor people do, or to buy a suit is spitting in the face of those parentsOkay, so we should all eat dirt cookies, have shitty sleep and be malnourished just because someone in ______ does? Maybe I should get AIDS too, because that's the only way I can understand the struggle of millions of real proles. I would also not be spitting in anyone's face that way.

And for these selfish people to have come to understand something about the nature of this capitalist system and continue to lead their lifestyles tells me everything I need to know about them, they are really just out to get their's in this and don't have the interests of humanity at heart. They're still thinking like Americans and not about humanity.Again, the communist struggle is not one against material goods but against the conditions and nature of the system that creates them.

What are you, a primmo? Fucking christ.

blake 3:17

2nd November 2009, 01:38

I've found two measures have gone a long way on including people whoe are often excluded from anything political.

The simplest one is providing transit fare for people who couldn't otherwise afford it.

The other big one is childcare -- either directly providing it at rallies and meetings or providing subsidies to pay for babysitters. Childcare is a bit more complicated and costly but worth it if you are able to pull it off.

RotStern

2nd November 2009, 01:44

Say this:

''Have ya heard of revleft?''.:)

Kukulofori

2nd November 2009, 04:06

You mean like the ones where you allow ruling class politicians who tell the homeless that they have to leave downtown to use your ISO equipment?
I can't post links, but you know what I'm talking about. I find it very ironic that the ISO in pdx would paint itself as poor-people friendly. I've never seen wealthier "socialists" in my life.

But, yes as revolutionaries our most meaningful work is with those who catch hell everyday under this rotten capitalist system. Wealthy people are not a waste of time, but groups like the ISO show you what happens when rich people selfishly not willing to give up their privlege discover certain truths..they get stuck on a ledge along the ascent of the intellectual mountain.

It never claimed to be lumpen friendly, it organizes at a university. I claimed that campaigning for healthcare is a very lumpen-friendly goal, and if you can get them involved in that that's a good thing. Just because an organization has flaws doesn't mean it's not a good idea to work with them.

Or we could argue identity politics all day, but I figured it might be more useful to accomplish something.

chegitz guevara

2nd November 2009, 04:53

As for homeless people and I include here all who've experienced it, we are the only ones I'd fully trust as leaders within the vanguard. I don't trust a Marxist in a suit, tie, or car (with some exceptions here) any more than I trust a capitalist.

Yeah, this guy was a total counter-revolutionary. :laugh:
http://www.nicenetruth.com/images/uncategorized/2007/12/26/lenin010605nv9.jpg'\
And this guy. Major bourgeois fuck.
http://www.biografiasyvidas.com/monografia/marx/fotos/marx340a.jpg

Damn suit and tie wearing Marxists!
http://www.cooperativeindividualism.org/engels-friedrick.jpg

chegitz guevara

2nd November 2009, 04:55

Actually I've never even read much Marx and likely never will.

All you need is Chairman Bob!

Bill Hadnot

2nd November 2009, 23:52

I never said not to study communism. Wtf? You can beat a strawman to death very well.

If you want to dress fancy as to mark yourself different than those who cannot afford those clothes then you're feeding the system that traps those on the bottom the way it does. When you spend excess money on clothes rather than supporting the Party and/or people who're worse off than you then this is blatant selfishness and immorality.

I have a computer because it allows me to teach selfish people and properly orient people (including myself) for revolution. If I had a computer to please myself then I'd be selfish.

I'm outraged that people are forced to eat cookies made of dirt, does this mean that I think we should all be doing things that are unhealthy to survive? Of course not! But according to you I'm that stupid...I raised the example to point out that it's in part because of the selfishness of people like you who could be contributing YOUR ALL to support the cause of making revolution to end such horrible conditions, that such conditions continue to exist. You would instead pretty yourself up to differintiate yourself from those this system traps at the bottom, so that others will make sure to know that you're not..one of them people.

There is straw f'ing everywhere here. I will not respond to any further posts from you with this much straw in them. By all means attack my statements, but don't try to think you've made a conclusion on where I'm coming from. I'm not against material things in general, once we've reached socialism and we can produce goods for need and goods are produced in excess of what it takes for everyone to survive and be healthy then be selfish all you'd like, but you better be friendly to our Earth.

Bill Hadnot

3rd November 2009, 00:02

All you need is Chairman Bob!

Nope, a whole lot of what you need is Chairman Bob, minus the whole nonsense where he thinks he's genetically superior to everyone..like it is impossible, after decades even, that he could teach someone all that he knows in regards to making a successful revolution. Only the vital Chairman Bob can lead the revolution you know? :thumbup1:

Invincible Summer

3rd November 2009, 00:35

I never said not to study communism. Wtf? You can beat a strawman to death very well.

Well you said you have never read Marx and do not plan to, and that one does not have to study Darwin to understand his theories. With that logic, one does not have to study the important thinkers of communism to understand communism. That's ridiculous.

If you want to dress fancy as to mark yourself different than those who cannot afford those clothes then you're feeding the system that traps those on the bottom the way it does. When you spend excess money on clothes rather than supporting the Party and/or people who're worse off than you then this is blatant selfishness and immorality.
Well who is to say that I am dressing to "mark [my]self different" or to just clothe myself? What if I find certain clothes more comfortable, and want to pay a bit more for it? Who are you to say how people can/should dress? Wearing a certain shirt/sweater/etc doesn't make one any less revolutionary. Besides, the "fanciness" of clothes is subjective and relative.

I have a computer because it allows me to teach selfish people and properly orient people (including myself) for revolution. If I had a computer to please myself then I'd be selfish.

So you don't use your computer to listen to music, or to watch videos... doing "pleasureable" things? You strictly use it to "teach selfish people?" I have a hard time believing this. That's also pretty condescending.

I'm outraged that people are forced to eat cookies made of dirt, does this mean that I think we should all be doing things that are unhealthy to survive? Of course not!
Well you said that buying a car (possibly to go to work to barely support your family) or buying a suit (even an old, used one in order to get a job to earn money) is "spitting in the face" of the poor and oppressed.

To me, it sounds like you're saying that revolutionaries should be like the poor and oppressed or else we're insulting them.

But according to you I'm that stupid...I raised the example to point out that it's in part because of the selfishness of people like you who could be contributing YOUR ALL to support the cause of making revolution to end such horrible conditions, that such conditions continue to exist. You would instead pretty yourself up to differintiate yourself from those this system traps at the bottom, so that others will make sure to know that you're not..one of them people.

Yeah. That's it. You read me like a book. :rolleyes:

I'm sorry that I have my own life to lead outside of being a communist... I'm a terrible person and should just throw in my lot with the bougies. :crying:

There is straw f'ing everywhere here. I will not respond to any further posts from you with this much straw in them. By all means attack my statements, but don't try to think you've made a conclusion on where I'm coming from. I'm not against material things in general, once we've reached socialism and we can produce goods for need and goods are produced in excess of what it takes for everyone to survive and be healthy then be selfish all you'd like, but you better be friendly to our Earth.

Well I don't think you realize the ramifications of what you're saying.

btpound

4th November 2009, 07:35

Actually I've never even read much Marx and likely never will. Does one need read Darwin nowadays to understand evolution? I think it can even get in the way. Anyways, if those were the cheapest/most economical clothes that Marx had access to buy then he was acting morally...if he chose to pay more to the ruling class to pretty himself up for society then he was selfish and immoral for doing so.

I don't follow any ideas dogmatically, my point about trust was in regards to leadership positions where there is no place for selfishness of any kind, but even more broadly, to know that there are parents in Haiti right now who're forced to feed their children cookies made of oil, sugar and dirt in an effort to survive, and then to go out and make a car payment to the ruling class when you have able legs and public transit options to get around like poor people do, or to buy a suit is spitting in the face of those parents. And for these selfish people to have come to understand something about the nature of this capitalist system and continue to lead their lifestyles tells me everything I need to know about them, they are really just out to get their's in this and don't have the interests of humanity at heart. They're still thinking like Americans and not about humanity.

First off, I think it is self-centered of you to castigate someone because they drive a car. I drive a car. You know why? Because I live far away from my job because the low income housing i can afford is on the south side of town. Me and my girlfriend live together and have to share. I am so glad I have a car too. You know why? Because my girlfriend would have to take a hour and a half bus ride all the way across town to her job. And it didn't drop he off in front. It took her a mile away. So she had to walk, another half hour, in the hot Florida heat, and THEN clock in and work a eight hour day, and PRAY that she would be cut before the buses stopped running. "I don't trust anyone with a car or a suit" Fuck you. It such a typical middle-class outlook. It's like those bougie liberals who tell struggling workers that we can't solve our problems through violence, while counter revolutionaries are murdering their children. You know why people buy cars? Because walking sucks. Buses suck. You get fucked with by assholes and its uncomfortable. I am not rich by any means. I am below the poverty line, and I have a car. As for suits, obviously Marx would have had to look presentable, he was trying to lead a revolutionary movement. What would you have him do? Stand up there looking like the Charlie Chaplin tramp? With holes in his clothes, covered in dirt. I wouldn't look at him and think, "Wow, how selfless of him to not care how he looks." I would think, "This guy is suppose to lead us? He can't even lead himself to a laundromat." The desire to have nice clothes and reliable, comfortable transportation is not SELFISH you moron. Look at the clothes you are wearing right now. This very second. See that tag on the collar? Where does it say it was made? China, huh. You know why. Because cheap clothes are made in China. These clothes were made in a sweat shop. We all know this. We buy it because we are the working class. The wholly propertyless. We have the scraps of the rich to live off off. I am very lucky to live in a country with big scraps. And if you are about to say, "I buy fair trade" then I guess you do care what you wear. Your viewpoint is a bourgeois, insulated, middle-class one, and if you plan on making any effectual change in your would I would shed it quick. Haven't read much Marx huh? Well it fucking shows. Thank you Rise Like Lions for having the patience i don't. Jesus Christ!

Bill Hadnot

7th November 2009, 02:08

It sounds like you don't live in a city. As with others on this thread if you'd just read what I've already written you'd see I've already spoken to what you raise. If you live where there is no bus then you might have to have a car to secure your survival. Of course people can be ignorant of the facts that it is much more expensive, dangerous and unhealthy to have a car in which case I do not fault them for not knowing of course.

I'm middle-class..that is hilarious :laugh: but what's not is that you think you're too good to walk and ride the buses like poor people do everyday and aren't willing to give your all, even if it includes ..oh dread..walking a little bit in Florida (I've done it myself quite a bit and I'm okay) to the cause of making revolution.

Yes, sweatshop labor is a horror...there I said it. If we must buy this stuff then buy the cheap stuff and give the excess to the Party so that we can bring about an end to the system that inevitably creates sweatshop labor.

And there is no need for a suit. Why pay more to act like you're not poor? What do you have against the way poor people look? Why are you trying to impress those who hate poor people rather than giving your all to transform the people for revolution? It sounds very much like you're waiting on the rich fucks to throw a revolution for us.

btpound

7th November 2009, 17:15

I understand what you're trying to say, I really do. I understand that you think we should not care what we look like. What you need to realize is that this materialism is a form of capitalist alienation. It can not be destroyed by telling people they need to love poverty. I am not a communist because I love poverty, I am a communist because I want democratic control over the wealth I create. Your viewpoint is a deformed, insulated, middle-class one, even if you are not middle class (which I highly suspect you are or came from that backround). I know this because I use to think like you. I would tear my clothes because I hated nice clothes. I would never shower. I dropped out of school, twice! I refused getting a job. I ate out of trashcans. I am not saying there is anything wrong with these things, but I was emulating a economic statues that wasn't mine. I had a home to go to, and the people who were forced into that kind of life resented me, just like they would resent you for what you are saying. "If you got a home to go to, what are you doing sleeping on a street corner?" But then I grew up. I realized that my views were rooted in a rebellion against the ruling-class consciousness that had been instilled in me since birth. I had to realize, like you will, that this isn't how you live your life. You can love revolution without loving poverty. I'm gunna make a prediction, and say you are not married, have no children, and are probably younger than 25. Did I get it? Was I close? In reality, maybe arguing with you is both pointless and unnecessary. Because your deformed class views are rooted in an inslated material situation. Let's see how you love poverty when you have no food in YOUR mouth. Let's see you explain to your daughter how a home loan is a "bourgeois trick!" As Marx would put it: "Communism is for us not a state of affairs which is to be established, an ideal to which reality [will] have to adjust itself. We call communism the real movement which abolishes the present state of things. The conditions of this movement result from the premises now in existence."

gorillafuck

7th November 2009, 17:29

I was riding the bus the other day, and saw a gathering of homeless people on the street. They were being loud and rowdy, and i had the thought of, "what if I went over there and started talking to them about marxism?"
I think that going over to them and lecturing them on marxism is a pretty pointless idea. What were they gathering and being rowdy about?

btpound

8th November 2009, 05:50

I think someone was handing food out, and one of them was just drunk. I was on the bus at the time, so I didn't hear them, but his body language seemed very animated. Maybe he was discussing the exploitation of the capitalist society? Lol.

#FF0000

8th November 2009, 07:01

It sounds like you don't live in a city.

Or in a city that isn't a tourist-safe green zone like New York.

I'm middle-class..that is hilarious :laugh: but what's not is that you think you're too good to walk and ride the buses like poor people do everyday and aren't willing to give your all, even if it includes ..oh dread..walking a little bit in Florida (I've done it myself quite a bit and I'm okay) to the cause of making revolution.

Some people who walk or take the bus to work every day would probably like to have a car. It's safer and more convenient.

Yes, sweatshop labor is a horror...there I said it. If we must buy this stuff then buy the cheap stuff and give the excess to the Party so that we can bring about an end to the system that inevitably creates sweatshop labor.

Oh word. So third world workers should take one for the team so we can buy cheap clothes to make sure we don't look like we're trying to act rich. Sounds pretty selfish and immoral to me.

And there is no need for a suit.

MIDDLE CLASS STUDENT DETECTED

Why pay more to act like you're not poor?

Because things like job interviews exist.

What do you have against the way poor people look?

Poor people look a lot of different ways but going based on people in my area, I can say that we all tend to look battered and dirty. Maybe marked up with open sores from meth addiction. Premature hair loss is common. People seem to age way too fast. And then there's the homeless, who look more or less the same but dirtier and colder as they weather a Pennsylvania winter on the train tracks behind the Wal*Mart distribution center.

But it's all okay because we get to revel in how morally sound and selfless we are in our poverty and squalor.

Why are you trying to impress those who hate poor people rather than giving your all to transform the people for revolution? It sounds very much like you're waiting on the rich fucks to throw a revolution for us.

It sounds very much like you don't know what you're talking about. How someone dresses and whether or not they have a car is totally irrelevant. It's their commitment to the class struggle that counts.