A Speech by a RAIM Comrade on the 8th Anniversary of the Invasion of Afghanistan

[AvanteRedGarde]

(http://raimd.wordpress.com/2009/10/21/a-speech-by-a-raim-comrade-on-the-8th-anniversary-of-the-invasion-of-afghanistan/)

The following was delivered by a RAIM comrade on October 7th, 2009, the 8th anniversary of the invasion of Afghanistan. In the speech, the RAIM comrade tells the audience of anti-war and police brutality activists, anarchists and RAIM supporters that the problem is not Bush or Obama, it is Amerika.


“Leonard Peltier is a political prisoner – an artist, a writer, a father whose life has been stolen. Locked away for defending his land. Locked away in Amerikkka’s dungeons. He just sent an open letter to the president. To paraphrase: ‘I am not Bush’s political prisoner. I am your political prisoner now.’ He is Obama’s responsibility. This is an important point, especially for the liberals here whose politics begin and end with ‘throw out the Bush regime.’ Well, Bush is gone. Surprise, surprise. Amerikkka is still at war. Two wars wasn’t enough. Iraq, Afghanistan, and now Pakistan. And Iran is in the cross hairs. A recent poll shows a majority of Amerikans, Republican and Democrat or “Independent,” want to use force on Iran right now. Iran is in the crosshairs and it’s Obama with his finger on the trigger and your average Joe Amerikan cheering him on.


These wars are not just wars of the ‘right wing,’ or ‘conservative, or ‘Republican’ wars. These aren’t Bush’s wars. They are Obama’s now. More accurately, they are Amerika’s wars. And, it will take more to stop these wars, and the next war and the one after that, than marching in the streets holding signs. This shit goes back to 1492, even earlier. The crusaders, KKKolumbus, Manifest Destiny, chattle slavery, the endless imperialist wars of the last century.


In 1492, KKKolumbus sailed the ocean blue.. then he landed and killed everyone who wasn’t European. Exterminated the Taino peoples. That’s the real story.


Yesterday, it was the US genocide of South East Asia, the propping-up and financing of death squad states in Latin America, the rape and enslavement of Africa. Today it’s killing Pakistanis with unmanned drones. What will it be tomorrow?


The problem is bigger than Democrats and Republicans. Bigger than Bush and Obama. The problem is Amerika, and Amerikans. We can’t let Amerikans, and the Amerikan working class off the hook. Even the poorest Amerikan benefits from imperialism.


Yet Amerikans have the hypocrisy to point their fingers at the Third World. They call the Iranian president a “holocaust denier.” Yet Amerikans are the biggest holocaust deniers on the planet. It was the US that largely exterminated the whole continent of North America, from sea to shining sea — the largest genocide in history, thousands of civilizations gone forever – tens of millions killed by Uncle Sam.


In Zimbabwe, a recent report condemned Mugabe because he ‘only’ paid three percent in compensation to the imperialists during his land reform program. Let me get this straight. The imperialist come to Africa, they steal the land from the Africans, they disrupt the African traditional way of life, the imperialists impose white supremacist terrorist states on Africans, then when those Africans take their land back, the imperialists call it ‘theft’ and impose sanctions to strangle Zimbabwe, to punish the Africans, to make them OBEY. When Mugabe turned the tables and gave land to the poor Africans, he is a ‘thief,’ yet the imperialists think nothing about stealing whole countries as was the case in Zimbabwe or whole continents as was the case in the Americas. The only compensation the Africans received was the whites imposing a terroristic white supremacist state to keep them in bondage. The only compensations the Indigenous received in North America was to be killed or herded into reservations on the worst land, to have their children stolen and culture stripped away.


Remember the pigs earlier today who dared us to cross their invisible line on the ground? The pigs told us that we could not stand on parts of the sidewalk in front of the building? Who the fuck are they to say anything about where we can and can’t go on this land? This is Mexican and Indigenous land. It’s Uncle Sam who squats here on borrowed time. This land will be returned to its rightful owners. These crackers will get a taste of socialism – the power of the Third World over the First World. RAIM opposes the war. More than that, RAIM opposes Amerika and Amerikans.


The vast majority of humanity in the Third World barely survives on about $2.50 a day. Yet, Amerikans and the First World as a whole plop themselves down in front of their stupid boxes, one hand glued to a remote controller, the other in a bag of Cheetos. Amerikans waste their lives away on the back of others. RAIM is out to settle the score. RAIM is going to turn the tables.”


More here: www.raimd.wordpress.com

[Havet]

Does he purposefully misspell America and Americans?

BTW, how can there be any "rightfull owners" of any land?

[AvanteRedGarde]

Yes.

Every society defines what ownership of the land means. Pre-columbian North American supposedly has communal conceptions of land ownership (or perhaps stewardship is a modern word for some aspects of their view). Amerika had a different on: doling out plots of land to individual settlers and slave owners. As evident by the raim speech, in this example the state defined property lines as the protest was forbidden to go beyond a certain point.

RAIM obviously has it's own conception of what rightful ownership means.

(Here's my chant: This is what materialism looks like) Seriously, use your head.

[Havet]

Yes.

Every society defines what ownership of the land means. Pre-columbian North American supposedly has communal conceptions of land ownership (or perhaps stewardship is a modern word for some aspects of their view). Amerika had a different on: doling out plots of land to individual settlers and slave owners. As evident by the raim speech, in this example the state defined property lines as the protest was forbidden to go beyond a certain point.

RAIM obviously has it's own conception of what rightful ownership means.

(Here's my chant: This is what materialism looks like) Seriously, use your head.

How can there be any rightful concept of ownership? Dont communists oppose ownership and property on principle?

[Bud Struggle]

The Taliban would behead ever member of RevLeft in a heartbeat if they could get their hands on them.

They are not our friends.

[AvanteRedGarde]

No, communists would state that a rightful ownership entails the collective ownership by the people for their own use and benefit.

[AvanteRedGarde]

The Taliban would behead ever member of RevLeft in a heartbeat if they could get their hands on them.

They are not our friends.

That's probably because Afghans rightly perceive the First World so-called left as not being its friend.

[#FF0000]

I'm gonna go ahead and call it:

No one in RAIM has any work experience out of retail.

[Bud Struggle]

That's probably because Afghans rightly perceive the First World so-called left as not being its friend.

The Left isn't a friend. Do you support Sharia Law? Death to all unbelievers? The subjugation of women? Rule by Mullah?

Where are we their friend? Yea, the Left and the Taliban don't like America--but would you sell your soul to radical Islam just to hit America?

[AvanteRedGarde]

The CIA and the State Department, which do provide a role in oppressing people around the entire planet, could say exactly the same thing, from a 'left' perspective.

Besides, at what point does RAIM say, "We support to taliban." Stay on topic and address the actual points made.

[Bud Struggle]

The CIA and the State Department, which do provide a role in oppressing people around the entire planet, could say exactly the same thing, from a 'left' perspective.

Besides, at what point does RAIM say, "We support to taliban." Stay on topic and address the actual points made.

The point is meaningless if it doesn't support the struggle. So what if Feudal Islamists don't like Capitalism? This entire thread is off topic.

[danyboy27]

wow those RAIM folks seem to be really angry, people, must be hard to live in that state of constant hatred.

hey lovecharch, what wrong about the retail sector?

i work in the retail sector, am i a bad person for that?

[Conquer or Die]

The Taliban would behead ever member of RevLeft in a heartbeat if they could get their hands on them.

They are not our friends.

That's because they are defending their country from foreign occupation.

[Conquer or Die]

hey lovecharch, what wrong about the retail sector?

i work in the retail sector, am i a bad person for that?

Apparently you're a weakling for not being part of the non-existent working class and working class movement. One remembers the Michael Moore film "Roger and Me" where he sorrowfully describes how auto industry workers lost their cushy jobs and had to work at Taco Bell where it was "fast paced."

[#FF0000]

wow those RAIM folks seem to be really angry, people, must be hard to live in that state of constant hatred.

hey lovecharch, what wrong about the retail sector?

i work in the retail sector, am i a bad person for that?

Nah it's just that the third worldists just go wild about how no one in the united states is a worker and apparently that applies to retail especially.

[#FF0000]

Apparently you're a weakling for not being part of the non-existent working class and working class movement. One remembers the Michael Moore film "Roger and Me" where he sorrowfully describes how auto industry workers lost their cushy jobs and had to work at Taco Bell where it was "fast paced."

middle-class liberal spotted

[Conquer or Die]

middle-class liberal spotted

Effete Archy Bunker identified.

[AvanteRedGarde]

snap

[Havet]

No, communists would state that a rightful ownership entails the collective ownership by the people for their own use and benefit.

What are the arguments for justifying rightful collective ownership?

If individual ownership is not rightful, then it follows that many individual ownerships are not rightful, and it follows that collective ownership is not rightful, since a collective (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective) is a group of individuals.

[Dejavu]

What are the arguments for justifying rightful collective ownership?

If individual ownership is not rightful, then it follows that many individual ownerships are not rightful, and it follows that collective ownership is not rightful, since a collective (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective) is a group of individuals.

Indeed. Imagine if someone ran a restaurant and was like , no black person can eat here , only a group of black persons 10 or more.

[PRC-UTE]

What are the arguments for justifying rightful collective ownership?

If individual ownership is not rightful, then it follows that many individual ownerships are not rightful, and it follows that collective ownership is not rightful, since a collective (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective) is a group of individuals.

In the final analysis property is an exploitive relationship. Communists want to abolish that.

Regarding natives of the Americas and rightful ownership (or stewardship of tribal lands) I believe the Marxist sense of ethics is to look at who has actually put in the labour.

[Havet]

In the final analysis property is an exploitive relationship. Communists want to abolish that.

Regarding natives of the Americas and rightful ownership (or stewardship of tribal lands) I believe the Marxist sense of ethics is to look at who has actually put in the labour.

I didn't know communists sought to abolish both private ownership of the MOP and collective ownership of the MOP.

Why not just destroy the MOP then? If nobody's allowed to use them...:rolleyes:

[SocialismOrBarbarism]

RAIM is going to turn the tables? lol


Amerikans waste their lives away on the back of others.

Not by saying complete bullshit like this.

[#FF0000]

I didn't know communists sought to abolish both private ownership of the MOP and collective ownership of the MOP

Perhaps it'd be better to say we oppose "exclusive" ownership of the means of production then, so you don't get to use any of those neat language tricks to take us down the valley of bizarre reasoning.

[Havet]

Perhaps it'd be better to say we oppose "exclusive" ownership of the means of production then, so you don't get to use any of those neat language tricks to take us down the valley of bizarre reasoning.

Interesting.

So if i want to make orange juice from the orange juice machine, that is a capital good ( what you call a 'means of production'), I HAVE TO get every single person on the planet to vote in majority or consensus for me to make this cup of orange juice, or else I'm being exclusive, correct?

[ls]

Are you too an Amerikan ARG? I'd like an answer to that first off. Secondly, thanks for the laughs- especially liked KKKolumbus, will have to remember that one.


Yet Amerikans are the biggest holocaust deniers on the planet. It was the US that largely exterminated the whole continent of North America, from sea to shining sea — the largest genocide in history, thousands of civilizations gone forever – tens of millions killed by Uncle Sam.

This doesn't somehow mean workers in America today are at fault for their ancestor's actions, many of them even immigrated recently, way after that even happened.

[PRC-UTE]

I didn't know communists sought to abolish both private ownership of the MOP and collective ownership of the MOP.

Why not just destroy the MOP then? If nobody's allowed to use them...:rolleyes:

You're reading terminology like private ownership in the capitalist definition, not the Marxist one.

Property and mode of production (I assume that's what you mean by "MOP") are actually two different things, and are a source of tension. There can't really be property in a stateless gift economy, there aren't even workers.

[Havet]

You're reading terminology like private ownership in the capitalist definition, not the Marxist one.

So what's the marxist one?


Property and mode of production (I assume that's what you mean by "MOP") are actually two different things, and are a source of tension. There can't really be property in a stateless gift economy, there aren't even workers.

Actually MOP read Means of Production.

If there can't be property then either nobody owns anything or everybody owns everything.

If nobody owns anything then we'll all die.

If everybody owns everything, every single time an action is engaged in, one must get the interplanetary consent or majority vote that allow such person to engage in such action. You think this is doable?

Like I said:


So if i want to make orange juice from the orange juice machine, that is a capital good ( what you call a 'means of production'), I HAVE TO get every single person on the planet to vote in majority or consensus for me to make this cup of orange juice, or else I'm being exclusive, correct?

[SocialismOrBarbarism]

Interesting.

So if i want to make orange juice from the orange juice machine, that is a capital good ( what you call a 'means of production'), I HAVE TO get every single person on the planet to vote in majority or consensus for me to make this cup of orange juice, or else I'm being exclusive, correct?


Do you honestly have to troll this forum constantly for nine hours a day? Shouldn't you be out doing something, like, running a black market business?

[#FF0000]

Interesting.

So if i want to make orange juice from the orange juice machine, that is a capital good ( what you call a 'means of production'), I HAVE TO get every single person on the planet to vote in majority or consensus for me to make this cup of orange juice, or else I'm being exclusive, correct?


Or we could decide that we can produce enough orange juice machines for everyone who wants one to get one, to avoid such silly extremes. Likewise for all appliances, computers, lawn equipment...etc.

[Dejavu]

Or we could decide that we can produce enough orange juice machines for everyone who wants one to get one, to avoid such silly extremes. Likewise for all appliances, computers, lawn equipment...etc.

I would maybe 'want' a lot of things. Just because I want it does not entail some entitlement to me to have it, does it? What are the costs of providing everyone with an orange juice machine simply because they 'want' one?

[#FF0000]

I would maybe 'want' a lot of things. Just because I want it does not entail some entitlement to me to have it, does it? What are the costs of providing everyone with an orange juice machine simply because they 'want' one?

Who knows. We'll work it out when we come to it.

[Havet]

Who knows. We'll work it out when we come to it.

Doesn't look like people have things very well planned out for after the revolution.

[Havet]

Do you honestly have to troll this forum constantly for nine hours a day? Shouldn't you be out doing something, like, running a black market business?

I'm sorry that you find legitimate questions as trolling.

It is no surprise then, that you resort to such ad homs in order to cover up the fact that you can't (and won't even bother to) address my points.

[Bud Struggle]

Doesn't look like people have things very well planned out for after the revolution.

Actually there's plenty of plans. There is the Anarchist's plan and the the Leninist, plans the Trotskiest plans, the Hoxhaist plans, the Maoist plans, etc. There most be 50 plans.

It will be interesting to see who wins out.

[Robert]

It will be interesting to see who wins out. You mean, as between you and me, right? I'm still down with our east coast/west coast power sharing arrangement, Bud-meister. Winter or Summer, there'll always be a place to ski!

There are latent dictatorships in the bowels of each of these little sub-movements, for all their claims to egalitarianism. Some of them are truly malevolent (witness the frank admiration of Cuba and North Korea on this board). Normal people can see it and are repelled by it.

It's one of several reasons the Left cannot get serious traction, no matter how much the working class may be struggling. And as Icarus claims elsewhere (though I have my doubts), things are getting marginally better for the working class anyway. They are going to vote in health care reform and increases in minimum wages and then revolt?

[Bud Struggle]

You mean, as between you and me, right? I'm still down with our east coast/west coast power sharing arrangement, Bud-meister. Winter or Summer, there'll always be a place to ski! That what I love about Communism--with no innate natural rights, everything's fair. Nice split! And if ever our young Commies get restless, we can alway go to war (your brand of Communism will be no doubt "slightly" different from mine) after the first peace--lunch (full state) is on me. Hopefully you'll pick up the tab after our second war.


There are latent dictatorships in the bowels of each of these little sub-movements, for all their claims to egalitarianism. Some of them are truly malevolent (witness the frank admiration of Cuba and North Korea on this board). Normal people can see it and are repelled by it.And the Stalin lovers, and Mao. One wonders, is this what human nature really looks like or is is just the politics of the place?


It's one of several reasons the Left cannot get serious traction, no matter how much the working class may be struggling. And as Icarus claims elsewhere (though I have my doubts), things are getting marginally better for the working class anyway. They are going to vote in health care reform and increases in minimum wages and then revolt?

That is the question.

[SocialismOrBarbarism]

I'm sorry that you find legitimate questions as trolling.

It is no surprise then, that you resort to such ad homs in order to cover up the fact that you can't (and won't even bother to) address my points.


So if i want to make orange juice from the orange juice machine, that is a capital good ( what you call a 'means of production'), I HAVE TO get every single person on the planet to vote in majority or consensus for me to make this cup of orange juice, or else I'm being exclusive, correct?Unless you somehow don't understand the concept of property held in common, which seems unlikely, then yes, I'd say this was trolling. There is no point to address here. If you don't understand, go to a public park or hang out with some hippies.

Also, I don't see how me pointing out that you stay on this forum for nine hours a day is an ad-hominem. It's an observation.

[Havet]

Unless you somehow don't understand the concept of property held in common, which seems unlikely, then yes, I'd say this was trolling. There is no point to address here. If you don't understand, go to a public park or hang out with some hippies.

On the contrary, its you who can't seem to grasp my criticisms. Since you decided to quote that particular text, I invite you to answer me.


Also, I don't see how me pointing out that you stay on this forum for nine hours a day is an ad-hominem. It's an observation.

I don't spend 9 hours a day here

And the ad-hominem was because you unnecessarily called me a troll.