self-determination and left-communism

[Pierson's]

wikipedia suggests that left communists oppose "self determination", and see it as a form of "bourgeois nationalism". however, in the article on left communism, i can't see why self determination is opposed, beyond that.

so, the question is, do left communists generally oppose the concept of self determination, and if so, why?

surely it is better to allow people to have say in where they are ruled from, just as it is better to allow people to have a say in who rules them ('democracy'), rather than not at all (a feudal system, or where only land owners have a vote)?

another thought, wouldn't it be better to see the break up of various states (for example spain and turkey), as that would weaken the governments of those countries?

[Invincible Summer]

wikipedia suggests that left communists oppose "self determination", and see it as a form of "bourgeois nationalism". however, in the article on left communism, i can't see why self determination is opposed, beyond that.

so, the question is, do left communists generally oppose the concept of self determination, and if so, why?

surely it is better to allow people to have say in where they are ruled from, just as it is better to allow people to have a say in who rules them ('democracy'), rather than not at all (a feudal system, or where only land owners have a vote)?

another thought, wouldn't it be better to see the break up of various states (for example spain and turkey), as that would weaken the governments of those countries?

Here's the platform of one of the major Left Communist groups, and it briefly explains why internationalist communists are against national liberation: http://www.ibrp.org/en/about-us/iwg

It's not whether people should have a say or not in how they should be ruled - this is all within the context of capitalist society anyway. The point is that the bourgeoisie should not rule anymore.

And the capitalist gov'ts of countries shouldn't be weakened, they should be destroyed.

I'm still learning about Left-Communism, so take what I say w/ a grain of salt.

[Pierson's]

i think that you are conflating self determination with "national liberation". i don't think that they are the same thing at all, though they are obviously very similar.

self determination calls for independence of a region, using the notion of free assosiation. a person should be able to choice which country or region they want to "belong" to. (it has only ever really been used against germany and the former austria-hungry after ww1.)

regardless though, the page you linked to doesn't suggest that they "oppose" national liberation, or anything like that, rather they just don't support it. i can understand not supporting it, to a small extent, but out and out opposing it?

[Devrim]

From the Platform of the ICC: http://en.internationalism.org/node/615

Devrim