Rememberance Sunday

[Pogue]

From Ian Bone's blog: http://ianbone.wordpress.com/2009/10/27/remembrance-sunday-november-8th/

I’ve put this post up for the last two years – but once again having seen not one poppy wearer at the Anarchist Bookfair I think it’s worth repeating. Are we out of sympathywith the common culture of our country comrades? Anyone drink down the Legion? We are not ‘ALL PALESTINIANS’ for fuck sake! The new Black Flag contains an article by Manchester No Borders crtical of my enthusiasm for Frank Newbould’s wartime propaganda poster ‘ Our England – Let’s fight for it’ – presumably it should have read ‘Our England – lets throw the towel in to the Nazis – thank god we got rid of borders by concreting in the Channel’

http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~pv/pv/courses/posters/images3/fightnow3.jpgAnother of Newbould’s brilliant wartime posters – it don’t exactly look like the Toff’s Britain he’s assking us to fight for?
Here’s a post on POPPY WEARING I put up last year – but it bears repeating I think:

Wearing poppies this year then?

Despite its annual proximity to Remembrance Sunday I can never recall seeing anyone at the Anarchist Bookfair wearing a poppy. Maybe this year – as the outporing – indeed out of the closet – support for our WW2 fighters on the previous post demonstrates – some poppy wearers might be a first step before we contemplate a wreath laying at local war memorials or the Cenotaph. Certainly anything at the Cenotaph ought to be heartfelt and low key……..but we really ought to be reclaiming the day from Royals and Party leaders.It was our fucking class that won the war – maybe at long last we can show some pride in it. I did wear a poppy last year on the Notting HilL BTR march and there was a furious response on the Libcom Forum from one indivdual like it was the sell out of a lifetime!!
It may be that after all it wasn’t my generation of 1968 that were the true radicals but our boring old mums and dads in their stuffy clothes and values that were the truly radical generation – fighting the war, bringing in the Labour landslide of 45, voting in Communists, ILP ers and the almost anarcho-utopian Commonweal party in the war. As always Orwell summed up the Left’s problem with patriotism and derided how out of touch with our people they were. Orwell said it was the upper class and the working class who valued physical courage and bravery – the middle class sneered and mocked it…….check out how that pans out in our movement now comrades.For Orwell in 1940 that meant dismissing the leftie pacifists and turning the forerunner of the Home Guard into a revolutionary fighting force. He even imported Spanish anarchists to teach petrolbomb throwing in sedate OSterley Park! We need a similar sea change in our attitde to our Englishness and our recent history.
Seeing Michael Vaughan’s tearful exit from being England’s cricket captain – stress mate stress – recall’s Australian cricketer Keith Miller’s response when asked if he got stressed in a test match. Miller had been a fighter pilot in the war……….’LISTEN MATE – A MESSERSCHMITT UP YOUR ARSE IS STRESS – THIS IS JUST A FUCKING GAME’+
http://www.illustrationartgallery.com/acatalog/NicolleTPL221detail.jpg (http://uk.wrs.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0WTf2r32eZKZAkBkylWBQx./SIG=12qicuvp6/EXP=1256729463/**http%3A//www.illustrationartgallery.com/acatalog/NicolleTPL221detail.jpg)HOWZAT! Miller takes out Nazi’s middle stump!

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++

I think he has a sound point and on more than just this. Although obviously the way we directed anything like this would have to make it clear we are supporting the efforts of working class soldiers, the wider point about us being out of touch and acting based on absurd ideological puritanical bullshit is true.

[Holden Caulfield]

i wear a poppy, and BS can attest to this, i was looking for a place to buy one when I was on the way to the bookfair.

The same bookfair I stood talking to Ian at, I wish i had bought one earlier just to ruin his article

[redflag32]

No wonder you're anti-(Irish)republican. Who ever heard of a social revolutionary celebrating an imperialist war.

[blake 3:17]

I don't wear one. My grandfather served in the first World War and lost three of his brothers and his toes. My dad was in the second, killed a lot of Germans, and got messed up for life.

Nothing to celebrate.

[Revy]

I tried to look into this because I didn't really understand what this was all about. I've never heard of Ian Bone. I googled Manchester No Borders. Here's their well-written article (http://nobordersmanchester.blogspot.com/2009/10/on-class-and-migrant-solidarity.html) which seems to have set off this guy on this incoherent rant.

Excerpt:



The 'English' anarchists – of that identity they seem to be proud – write on blogs and discussion forums that they will stand in defence of the working class when the “liberals” of No Borders abolish immigration controls in favour of capitalist exploitation. There is Matt D., member of the IWW and Liberty & Solidarity who blogs at ‘workers self organisation’. He draws a distinction that could have come straight from a primitivist or gated-communities pamphlet: “no borders… or community control of resources”. The No Borders position for him is “un-anarchist” as it “can only be realised if some large international body enforces it”. Or take 9/11 Cultwatch writer Paul Stott who finds it hard to believe that anarchists would “travel to another country” in solidarity with migrants rather than staying here in solidarity with workers facing recession. Even Class War founder Ian Bone on his blog defines class struggle in national terms: “it’s our England we will fight for”. Paul Stott again adds to this a typical expression of labour movement nationalism: “Is there anything more likely to drive down existing wages than mass immigration?”

We do welcome discussion and criticism, even and especially of the fundamentals of our theory and practice. We are not shy of debate and hope that in the near future we can continue and exchange with the ‘English’ class struggle anarchists. For now, in the constraints of a short article, we want to briefly respond to four frequent statements from within that movement that we have disagreed with.

1. No borders would benefit capitalism

You will have probably observed that, today, movement is increasingly free - just so long as it is profitable. To say that capitalism would benefit from no borders is to overlook the role border control has served and continues to serve in the maintenance of an exploitative status quo. It is one of the primary means through which labour-power is disciplined and global divisions of labour, privilege and power are enforced. At the border the abstract logic of profit confronts the lived reality of our lives. Hence the border, like the factory, is both a site of suffering and a vector of antagonism.

2. No borders is utopian

Yes, but only if you think like a state. ‘But how can you make this work, its unmanageable, its not practical,’ the anxious statesman will cry. From the perspective of the state, no borders is indeed utopian – a place that could not be. For us, no borders is an axiom of political action, a principle of equality from which concrete, practical consequences must be drawn. It means recognising, on the basis of our equality, solidarity in struggle irrespective of origins. There is nothing less utopian and nothing more immediately practical than this.

3. An anarchist society would have community borders

The border traces a threshold of inside and outside. What is outside is perceived as dangerous and a threat to the inside, hence the ‘need’ for a border. The security that the border offers is essentially imposed externally and with reference to this threat. But there is another kind of security, one created internally through cooperation and mutual support. There is nothing in this kind of security which necessitates the exclusionary and violent practices of bordering. It is this latter kind of cooperative security which we are hoping to create.

4. National culture should be reclaimed

The nation state is a modern/recent form of sovereignty based (not solely) on forms of cultural nationalism which in turn are achieved through the glorification of typically 'English' traditions and stereotypes. We do not aim to undermine or ignore the history and traditions of struggle in the UK. Rather our aim is to undermine static conceptions of culture or community that create imagined divisions between 'us' and 'them'; divisions that have very real consequences for those who find they cannot, or do not want, to fit into these rigidly defined identities.

For us it seems that rather than attempting to transcend notions of class (domination), this new 'English' anarchism appeals to an affirmative cultural identity of class. We feel that we need to abandon such sociological concepts of class for revolutionary perspectives of social struggle. Not everyone sees the distinction between class struggle and migrant solidarity. Let's conclude with a comment by 'Alessio', who defends the no borders position in a reply to Paul Stott: “As the 'English' anarchists ponder on their next move, it seems like every other anarchist movement across Europe strides confidently forward. I see a pattern emerging here, maybe we should be more confident in anarchist politics and how we express them rather than continuously feel that we should pander or apologise to certain sections of the class in the UK.”

[Dr Mindbender]

You sometimes see the RAF 'wings' appeal round here.

Before i became politically conscious i wanted to and even applied to join the RAF, but i failed the medical and they refused to pay my university fees.

So fuck em, they can whistle.

[Pogue]

Again I think your just demonstrating excactly what he is saying. He is talking about there being nothing wrong with achknowledging the sacrifice of working class people in WW2. I think you are all proving how out of touch you really are.

[Pogue]

No wonder you're anti-(Irish)republican. Who ever heard of a social revolutionary celebrating an imperialist war.

:rolleyes:

[chegitz guevara]

We oppose patriotism.

[JohannGE]

I don't buy or wear a poppy.

I consider this:-

"The 2009 Poppy Appeal is emphasising the need to help the Afghan generation of the Armed Forces and their families – today and for the rest of their lives.

For their sake, wear a poppy"

http://www.poppy.org.uk/

...to be ample reason.

I am amazed that any leftist would be willing to support such an apeal.

The apeal was originaly instigated by the murderous war criminal Haig and is nowadays just an excuse for todays state mercanaries to wrap themselves in the bloody shrouds of true heroes who were sacrificed in the imperialist 1st world war and those who fought fascism in the 2nd.

[Spawn of Stalin]

I'm fine with supporting the people who fought the Nazis, but when you buy a poppy you are not supporting the heroes of the fight against fascism, you are supporting the imperialism mugs who will die for Queen and country on command. Fuck 'em.

[BobKKKindle$]

He is talking about there being nothing wrong with achknowledging the sacrifice of working class people in WW2.You're right, they did sacrifice themselves, they sacrificed themselves so that the British ruling class would be able to retain its hold on the world's and resources, and prevent Germany and Japan from threatening its imperial interests, because WW2, just like WW1, was a war between rival imperialist powers that had nothing to do with democracy or defeating fascism. If you say that it was good that they fought against German soldiers then that necessarily implies that there was a community of interests between the bourgeoisie and the working class during WW2, given that almost the whole of the establishment was also supporting the war effort, which, given that a basic principle of revolutionary socialism is that the interests of bosses and workers are irreconcilable, is problematic, to say the least. Not only that, it also raises the question of what you and Bone think about the decision of numerous Stalinist parties like the CPGB and CPUSA to make a truce with the state by calling on workers not to go on strike whilst the war was taking place - we can only assume that Bone supports such things because allowing strikes to occur would undermine what he regards as a working-class struggle. It was the job of socialists in that war to call on soldiers to turn on their officers and transform the war into a civil war between classes, and unfortunately there were quite a few Trotskyists and Anarchists, who, instead of speaking out against the war, sided with their respective ruling classes. The fact that so many working-class people in this country and in the countries that were under the control of British imperialism at the time like India and Egypt were butchered should not be celebrated as a glorious victory in the history of our movement, or treated as something that was in the interests of those who died, or as a sign of honour, it should be mourned as yet another sign, in addition to the poverty that working people endure every day, that capitalism, especially in its imperialist stage, has nothing to offer the vast majority of mankind and, as long as it continues to exist, will simply give rise to more destructive and tragic wars. If they want to show respect for the dead, then people should throw themselves into the anti-war movement and fight to overthrow capitalism, to make sure that no more workers have to die in imperialist wars, and that those people from working-class backgrounds who are currently serving in countries like Afghanistan and Iraq are brought home as soon as possible, to be with their families, not adopt a symbol of blind nationalism like the poppy.

I will not be wearing a poppy, and this is a very disappointing piece. It's worth pointing out that Bone's project of appropriating British nationalism is hardly original as Billy Bragg has been trying to do the same thing for years.

Despite being re-published by the Sparts, whose orthodoxy I don't agree with, this piece, commemorating the death of Martin Widelin, is very moving, and shows what socialists should have been doing, and the approach that we should admire:


Opposition to Nazism was not unusual in Europe. But the anti-fascism of Widelin and his comrades was something unique. For their opposition was conducted throughout in the spirit of internationalism.

They did not unite with the agents of Allied capitalism around the nationalist slogan of “Death to the Boche!”—as the Stalinists and “Socialists” did. On the contrary, Widelin and his co-workers in all countries sought to unite the masses of the occupied countries with the German soldiers in the occupying armies in a joint struggle against their common oppressors. Fraternization was their method, for they knew that only through fraternization could the struggle against Hitlerism have a successful revolutionary outcome. As a consequence, the Gestapo placed a higher price on the head of Widelin than it did on many an Allied general.

Widelin’s work was exceedingly dangerous. It was far easier to stick a knife between the ribs of a German soldier on a dark night than to meet that same German in the daytime, win his confidence and enlist him in the ranks of the revolutionary fighters against fascism. But difficult though this work was, Widelin carried it out with growing success until the day of his death.

In close cooperation with French and Belgian Trotskyists, he helped to establish a network of Fourth Internationalist cells within the Wehrmacht. This work was so effective that the Gestapo dispatched a special commission to Paris to destroy the Trotskyists. In one German unit alone, more than 30 soldiers were executed as Trotskyists after a stoolpigeon had been introduced into their midst.
The rest is available here. (http://www.icl-fi.org/english/wv/944/archives.html)

[Wanted Man]

absurd ideological puritanical bullshit

I.e. opposition to patriotism, nationalism, Britishness, Englishness, etc.

[BobKKKindle$]

I.e. opposition to patriotism, nationalism, Britishness, Englishness, etc.

The political tradition that you are part of gave enthusiastic support to WW2, and, as I pointed out above, called on workers not to go on strike so that the war effort could continue. I don't think it's fair for someone such as yourself to criticize others for not showing enough opposition to patriotism.

[chegitz guevara]

There are aspects of our national cultures that we ought to appropriate for ourselves, but jingoism is not one of them.

[Wanted Man]

The political tradition that you are part of gave enthusiastic support to WW2, and, as I pointed out above, called on workers not to go on strike so that the war effort could continue. I don't think it's fair for someone such as yourself to criticize others for not showing enough opposition to patriotism.

Why not? If it was a wrong position then, then it is wrong now, and anyone who feels this way should criticise it. You can still speak out on Afghanistan, even though your political tradition backed the mujahideen against the Soviets (along with such luminaries as the US government and Deng Xiaoping). In any case, I wasn't criticising him for being too patriotic, but I pointed out that he dismisses all opposition to patriotism as absurd ideological puritanical bullshit.

If anything is "not fair", it's the position that the OP is defending. As you well know from discussions here, when Irish, Afghani, Iraqi, or other people fight in a war for their country, the OP and his friends will make hundreds of posts here denouncing "nationalist, anti-working class c***s." (*) Same when the Soviet part in WWII comes up: it was nothing special, just lots of poor working-class dupes dying for two equally totalitarian states; their main part in defeating fascism was just coincidental, and what they brought in return was "just as bad", is the usual line.

Yet in Britain, the left needs to be attacked for not being patriotic enough, according to the OP, and for not supporting the British army at war. After all, the war was fought against the Huns, led by a madman who had only one ball, and it was fought by strapping working-class British boys, getting in their Spitfires to do the right thing for King and Country. Besides, they all voted for Labour or the "stalinist" CPGB afterwards, so there is clearly a progressive element there! What anarchist could possibly have a problem with that? :rolleyes:

(*) interestingly enough, this mostly happens when their enemies happen to be brave working-class British boys occupying those countries. This is surely a coincidence, and has nothing to do with the patriotism supported in the OP.

[chegitz guevara]

The political tradition that you are part of gave enthusiastic support to WW2, and, as I pointed out above, called on workers not to go on strike so that the war effort could continue. I don't think it's fair for someone such as yourself to criticize others for not showing enough opposition to patriotism.

Considering The IS/SWP didn't support the Vietnamese revolutionaries and supported the Brit army intervening in Northern Ireland back when the Troubles began, you might not want to be attacking people for their party's positions from generations past. All of our groups have made shit decisions in the past.

[BobKKKindle$]

Considering The IS/SWP didn't support the Vietnamese revolutionariesThe IS did support the national liberation struggle in Vietnam in the same way that we supported the liberation struggle in Afghanistan when that country fell under Soviet occupation, but unlike the rest of the left we didn't pretend that the Vietnamese Stalinists were fighting for the overthrow of capitalism, as distinct from political independence, and, unlike people like Tariq Ali and his friends in the IMG, we also didn't overlook the fact that they had murdered almost all of the Vietnamese Trotskyists shortly after the end of WW2, when the latter sought to organize the working class. If there's anyone who can be accused of not supporting revolution in Vietnam it's Mao and the his comrades in the CPC - during the Geneva talks in 1954, conducted between France and Pham Dan Vong, both the USSR and the PRC urged the Vietminh to enter into a peace agreement and accept the temporary division of their country along the 19th parallel despite the superior military strength and morale of the Vietminh (when the treaty was signed the Vietminh had in fact occupied almost the whole of what would later become Vietnam and whilst they were forced to withdraw as result of the treaty, and allow southern Vietnam to fall under the control of a right-wing regime, it would have been strategically possible for them to inflict a critical defeat on NATO’s regional interests by establishing a unified state, such was France’s lack of support amongst the working population) as well as the opposition to this conciliatory move amongst the leadership of the organization. Nor was the PRC's support for imperialism limited to Vietnam.


supported the Brit army intervening in Northern Ireland back when the Troubles beganWhat actually happened is that the SWP dropped their previous slogan of "British troops out". This is not the same as calling on troops to intervene just like the Bolsheviks dropping the slogan "All power to the Soviets!" for a limited time was not the same as them being oppossed to a government based on Soviet power or calling for a defense of the Provisional Government. Nonetheless, I think it was a mistake, and so did the rest of the SWP, which was why it was overturned at our next conference. The point here is not that the SWP has never made mistakes, but that the mistakes it has made are exceptions to an otherwise consistent policy of opposing imperialism - the same cannot be said for Stalinist organizations which have consistently betrayed internationalism.

[chegitz guevara]

Consistently betrayed internationalism isn't really accurate. The USSR almost went to nuclear war with the United States over Cuba. They've also lent considerable aid to Marxist guerrilla movements, as well as those countries where revolutions were successful.

Sometimes they were on the right side. There's certainly a lot to fault them for, but we should only attack people for their past mistakes if they are continuing to make those same mistakes. Maybe the Dutch CP is still making those mistakes. Rather more likely, they're making a whole new set of mistakes owing to them being social democrats.

Regardless, it was a rather gratuitous attack when he was making a decent political point.

[Devrim]

The political tradition that you are part of gave enthusiastic support to WW2, and, as I pointed out above, called on workers not to go on strike so that the war effort could continue. I don't think it's fair for someone such as yourself to criticize others for not showing enough opposition to patriotism.

As did the vast majority of the Trotskyist political tradition, and the ones who didn't split soon after. I actually agreed with your post, but it doesn't at all represent the Trotskyist position.

The historical bit about Martin Widelin was interesting too. Do you know which group he was in? I dug about looking for some references on the internet and found these things:

Copies of the paper:
http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/newspape/soldat/index.htm

An article about Trotskyism in occupied France:
http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/newspape/soldat/broder.htm

Third Camp Internationalists in France by Pierre Lanneret (devotes a section to Trotskyism)
http://www.kurasje.org/arkiv/6300t.htm

A section from the ICC's book on the German/Dutch left (deals with some splits from Trotskyism:
http://en.internationalism.org/books/dgcl/4/10_00.html

The Trotskyist in Occupied France article doesn't mention, which group it was.

Devrim

[Devrim]

Consistently betrayed internationalism isn't really accurate. The USSR almost went to nuclear war with the United States over Cuba.

That is called the struggle between two imperialist blocs, not internationalism.

Devrim

[Devrim]

Further investigation reveals the name of the organisation: IKD (Internationalist Communists of Germany):
http://books.google.com.tr/books?id=_eUtQjseKaIC&pg=PA425&lpg=PA425&dq=IKD+%22German+internationalist+communists%22&source=bl&ots=AdRRX_6KIH&sig=ZPEiBE5c0AA_VBkirD9AgmvWvFU&hl=tr&ei=a8ToSqDxBc_KjAeWpIXMBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CAcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=IKD%20%22German%20internationalist%20communists% 22&f=false

Devrim

[Das war einmal]

That is called the struggle between two imperialist blocs, not internationalism.

Devrim

Please explain how the USSR help to Cuba was 'imperialist' because I believe thats a stupid remark

[bricolage]

This is a probably a better option than poppies.

Before;

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/images/2009/10/440342.jpg

After;

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/images/2009/10/440344.jpg

Or;

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/images/2009/10/440625.jpg

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2009/10/440341.html

[Pogue]

This is a probably a better option than poppies.

Before;

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/images/2009/10/440342.jpg

After;

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/images/2009/10/440344.jpg

Or;

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/images/2009/10/440625.jpg

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2009/10/440341.html

Well this is true. its what I advocate. I think Ian Bone needed to go into more detail on what he was actually proposing. I think we should commemorate those who died in WW2, it was a sacrifice made for whatever reason, yes, it was an imperialist war, but yes, Hitler was also rampaging across Europe murdering as he went and so he had to be stopped. And it was the working class who stopped him.

[Pogue]

We oppose patriotism.

Well, you don't, your party promotes the patriotism of third world countries on a regular basis.

[Pogue]

This is excactly the sort of thing I'd expect to see really, as in the responses. I think it shows a lack of willingness ot engage on this topic which has been a weakness of the left for such a long time.

Firstly, both me and Ian have said we are talking about commemorating WW2. Not the subsequent wars in Ireland, Iraq and Afghanistan. Obviously i am opposed to these wars and active to that effect. So thats the first correct assumption that has been made here thats is wrong. I do not think the troops of today are heroes, I think they are a mixture of desperate working class people and jingoistic servants of imperialism. I am talking about commemorating the sacrifice the working class made to prevent Hitler rampaging across the world between 1939-1945.

Secondly my main point was how out of touch we are with this. The fact that everyone just screams 'patriotism' etc as soon as anyone even mentions achknowledging any kind of national heritage is absurd. Obviously, I am English. I identify as such. I am part of the English working class. I am opposed to the English ruling class. I stand in solidarity with members of the working class all over the world and I want to see an international revolution that does away with capitalism and the state. I've said before and I'll say it again, there is not a contradiction here, its just a base fact that I am English and will have some fondness for this country.

Again I think the main problem is that Ian Bone did not make clear what he was commemorating and why, i.e. the poppy campaign is largely focused these days on soldiers in the wars today who as I said I don't see as heroes. But again as I noted, I think his more general point about what we achknowledge is correct.

On the subject of 'reclaiming nationalism' I have never said I advocated this and that was a pathetic attempt at a slur from bobkindles. I think I am less guilty on this nationalistic front than someone whose signature was promoting the idea of national liberation for a couple of weeks previously. What I said is there is nothing wrong with achknowledging where you come from and some of the hsitory of that place. Its how much importance you put to it that matters - I think class is the most important thing, I do not think the advancement of the 'nation' comes before that of the class, I don't believe in restricting people from coming to this country, etc.

[Holden Caulfield]

I saw that afghan soldier thing myself on the way to the bookfair just as I talked to BS (who i saw yesterday with a poppy on) about buying a poppy. I think it is shamless but I expect no better.

Not just what Pogue said, although I mostly agree with it.

But I wear a poppy as a sign of rememberence to the lives of decent people thrown away in imperialist games. I have friends in the army now, not one is a 'flag waving patriotist', do i want them to die? no. do I realise why working class lads join the army? yes. Would I not attend their funeral? yes

Should I turn up like the Phelps and tell them how much of fools they all are.
Or would I be aware that they are mislead, they are are putting their lives on the line for a country that doesn't care for them.


I am not a patriot, but I don't see myself and pogue being dammed to high hell by marxists when we sing republican songs, or when we relate with the struggle of the Irish. When I go along to see Bourgeois republican bands, when I go watch Celtic in the pub. Am I a nationalist for celebrating a culture that "is not my own".
Do i think that the majority of republicans were/are mislead? Yes.

Do we support Hamas? Not like some who have posted in this thread.
We realise that Hamas would be a bourgeois police man of palestine in time, same as Fatah, and Arafat.

Did any party we are in support bourgeois polticians in this country on the merit that they are brown so it is okay? No.

I am aware there are massive differences between the examples but its rich to label us nationalists and such other sladers. Espeically considering the slimey arguments and the hypocrisy oozing from this thread.

I am an internationalist, my positions do not go against this

[Wanted Man]

Secondly my main point was how out of touch we are with this. The fact that everyone just screams 'patriotism' etc as soon as anyone even mentions achknowledging any kind of national heritage is absurd. Obviously, I am English. I identify as such. I am part of the English working class. I am opposed to the English ruling class. I stand in solidarity with members of the working class all over the world and I want to see an international revolution that does away with capitalism and the state. I've said before and I'll say it again, there is not a contradiction here, its just a base fact that I am English and will have some fondness for this country.
(emphasis mine)

I don't think this is the case with most of the left. We do oppose patriotism for various reasons, but that doesn't mean that every worker who expresses these views should be denounced as an evil nationalist or anything. Except maybe by "maoist third-worldists"! But many countries, including Britain and the US, do have a lot of snooty college-based sects who take this view, so I can understand what you are trying to oppose.

It's just the mindless tailing of reactionary sentiments that should be avoided. If a large group of workers jumped off a cliff, would you jump too? There is a kind of false dichotomy being presented here, between that kind of tailing, and, on the other hand, denouncing the British working class as net exploiters and patriots who only want gassy beer and Page 3, like some of the loonier sections of the "left".

I also think that if you want to acknowledge your English identity, that's all well and good, but it should not be a main idea for the rest of the movement. After all, this excludes people who don't subscribe to that identity at all, or even just people who don't have the same idea of their "national heritage".

[Pogue]

(emphasis mine)

I don't think this is the case with most of the left. We do oppose patriotism for various reasons, but that doesn't mean that every worker who expresses these views should be denounced as an evil nationalist or anything. Except maybe by "maoist third-worldists"! But many countries, including Britain and the US, do have a lot of snooty college-based sects who take this view, so I can understand what you are trying to oppose.

It's just the mindless tailing of reactionary sentiments that should be avoided. If a large group of workers jumped off a cliff, would you jump too? There is a kind of false dichotomy being presented here, between that kind of tailing, and, on the other hand, denouncing the British working class as net exploiters and patriots who only want gassy beer and Page 3, like some of the loonier sections of the "left".

I also think that if you want to acknowledge your English identity, that's all well and good, but it should not be a main idea for the rest of the movement. After all, this excludes people who don't subscribe to that identity at all, or even just people who don't have the same idea of their "national heritage".

But no one is suggesting we pander to whatever reactionary ideas working class people hold. You can argue from a pro-working class basis without having to rely on pathetic principles that get us nowhere. Its about relating to people. I too care about troops dying in Iraq and Afganistan just as I care about Iraqi and Afgani civilians dying too - I think its all part of imperialist slaughter. Its the line in which we argue from.

I know it will never, ever be a movement wide thing, and it'd be odd if it was. The point is though we should not be denounced as heretics solely because we achkmnowledge certain things the rest of the left shy away from. Alot of the approaches here stinks of liberalism, the sort of liberalism some socialists portray in other areas of their politics such as failing to deal with the concerns of the white working class in response to the neo liberal mishandling of multiculturalism, as an example. Its this patronising leftie hypocrisy that is one of the main reasons why no one wants to listen to us.

[100]

Today we hear the same slogans that we are fighting for ‘freedom’ and ‘democracy ‘that were put forth in WW2. We’ve been hearing the same slogans in every imperialist war. Anarchists have just decided that for WW2 we should believe them.

Here’s who I’ll think about.

I’ll think about the communists in Holland, Germany, Italy and elsewhere who were systematically slaughtered, assassinated or imprisoned because they refused to side with neither their country nor the ‘anti-fascism’ allies. I’ll think about the workers who striked (and many who were later killed), whom were replaced by scab workers by Stalin’s Russia in the name of anti-fascism.

I’ll think about the workers who striked in Turin and Milan, and whose factories and neighbourhoods were bombed by the great anti-fascist front known as the RAF.

If you call that anti-fascism, then anti-fascism is nothing more than apologism for imperialism and apologism for capitalist domination.

And if you think that as an anarchist you should side with the pigs who murdered your comrades then you don’t have a spine and you spit on their graves and the thousands of other graves of communists and anarchists who gave their lives in fighting capitalism and refusing to take sides with the groups which had formerly murdered their comrades.

No matter how brutal the crime, you'll always get glorification of its heroism and tradition from the eunuchs of bourgeois culture.


Maybe this year – as the outporing – indeed out of the closet – support for our WW2 fighters on the previous post demonstrates – some poppy wearers might be a first step before we contemplate a wreath laying at local war memorials or the Cenotaph. Certainly anything at the Cenotaph ought to be heartfelt and low key……..but we really ought to be reclaiming the day from Royals and Party leaders.It was our fucking class that won the war – maybe at long last we can show some pride in it. What a joke, and typical from a liberal anarchist. The working class never wins wars, unless its a class war. In WW2 the English, American or French working class had nothing to celebrate. Tens of millions of dead is nothing to celebrate over. You think the English working class won, they also burned Dresden to the ground, the US also nuked Japan. Only a disgusting pig would have any pride in that. You can’t reclaim what isn’t yours. Imperialist wars always belong to the ruling class, and they love it more than anything when the working class fall's for their rhetoric.

Fuck anarcho liberals.

[Pogue]

Today we hear the same slogans that we are fighting for ‘freedom’ and ‘democracy ‘that were put forth in WW2. We’ve been hearing the same slogans in every imperialist war. Anarchists have just decided that for WW2 we should believe them.

Here’s who I’ll think about.

I’ll think about the communists in Holland, Germany, Italy and elsewhere who were systematically slaughtered, assassinated or imprisoned because they refused to side with neither their country nor the ‘anti-fascism’ allies. I’ll think about the workers who striked (and many who were later killed), whom were replaced by scab workers by Stalin’s Russia in the name of anti-fascism.

I’ll think about the workers who striked in Turin and Milan, and whose factories and neighbourhoods were bombed by the great anti-fascist front known as the RAF.

If you call that anti-fascism, then anti-fascism is nothing more than apologism for imperialism and apologism for capitalist domination.

And if you think that as an anarchist you should side with the pigs who murdered your comrades then you don’t have a spine and you spit on their graves and the thousands of other graves of communists and anarchists who gave their lives in fighting capitalism and refusing to take sides with the groups which had formerly murdered their comrades.

No matter how brutal the crime, you'll always get glorification of its heroism and tradition from the eunuchs of bourgeois culture.

What a joke, and typical from a liberal anarchist. The working class never wins wars, unless its a class war. In WW2 the English, American or French working class had nothing to celebrate. Tens of millions of dead is nothing to celebrate over. You think the English working class won, they also burned Dresden to the ground, the US also nuked Japan. Only a disgusting pig would have any pride in that. You can’t reclaim what isn’t yours. Imperialist wars always belong to the ruling class, and they love it more than anything when the working class fall's for their rhetoric.

Fuck anarcho liberals.

Way to take what I said completely out of context marsella. I said we should honour the sacrifice of working class people who fought Hitler during WW2. I don't have some sort of blanket praise for the RAF. I recognise elements of the armies on the ALlied sid ein WW2 did reactionary, anti-working class things. But that doesn't mean we should ignore the sacrifice of millions who died fighting fascism and trying to stop Hitler's onslaught. What would you have done, waited for those troops who liberated Paris to come home who saw their comrades killed and brought the world back from the brink of fascist domination and heckled them, calling them scum?

This is why I said we ened to direct who we commemorate and have a strictly working class commeooration, whcih links in with celebrating the partisans, the futility of imperialist war, the evils of fascism, etc.

[Pogue]

Also, don't quote something Ian Bone wrote as mine, I said I think he has a point and the point could be extended out into the left further, I didn't say I agreed 100% with him.

[Pogue]

Also, again, as I said, its not 'falling for their rhetoric', thats th eprecise opposite of what I am proposing and what Ian Bone is proposing, he is suggesting we do what the left, especially pathetic left communists with their empty ideas such as you, have failed to do, and thats advance a working class agenda rather than just moaning about everything on the sidelines.

[redflag32]

Again I think your just demonstrating excactly what he is saying. He is talking about there being nothing wrong with achknowledging the sacrifice of working class people in WW2. I think you are all proving how out of touch you really are.

But equally you could say that its ok to acknowledge and celebrate the sacrifice's that fascist members of the working class made at that time as well?

The working class were used by the elite. Theres nothing to celebrate.

And i thought you hated nationalism.

[Pogue]

But equally you could say that its ok to acknowledge and celebrate the sacrifice's that fascist members of the working class made at that time as well?

The working class were used by the elite. Theres nothing to celebrate.

And i thought you hated nationalism.

I don't think your doing your arguments any justice by accusing me of nationalism, because its nothing of the sort, its a desire to achknowledge the sacrifice of working class people in fighting fascism.

So no, you couldn't 'equally achknowledge fascist members of the working class' because they were fascists, I would have thought that was a quite obvious really, if your all up for honouring fascists thats your business.

[redflag32]

I don't think your doing your arguments any justice by accusing me of nationalism, because its nothing of the sort, its a desire to achknowledge the sacrifice of working class people in fighting fascism.

So no, you couldn't 'equally achknowledge fascist members of the working class' because they were fascists, I would have thought that was a quite obvious really, if your all up for honouring fascists thats your business.

But the working class people who were fighting against fascism were fighting for Capitalism. You have taken a side between two sets of workers who were used as tools by a capitalist class.

WW2 was fought between workers who sided with the fascists and those who sided with the non-fascists. If we leave it there, it doesnt seem like we have a problem. But you have to realise that the 'non-fascist' workers who were fighting against hitler were siding with and strengthening the capitalist class. So there was no better side to be on. One side was part of fascism the other was tied up with imperialism/capitalism.

So yes, your right, we shouldnt celebrate the role workers played on the fascist side in any way. But equally we shouldnt celebrate the role workers played on the capitalist/imperialist side. Why have you chosen to pick a side in between these two sets of workers who were used as tools in this war? One was fighting for capitalism, the other was fighting for fascism/national socialism. Which is worse? There basically the same.

The funny thing is, the only workers you seem eager to celebrate are those who were in the state army. You constantly slander Irish republicans on this forum, who basically single handedly stopped the fascist movement from taking hold in Ireland. Don't they deserve celebration too?

[Pogue]

But the working class people who were fighting against fascism were fighting for Capitalism. You have taken a side between two sets of workers who were used as tools by a capitalist class.

WW2 was fought between workers who sided with the fascists and those who sided with the non-fascists. If we leave it there, it doesnt seem like we have a problem. But you have to realise that the 'non-fascist' workers who were fighting against hitler were siding with and strengthening the capitalist class. So there was no better side to be on. One side was part of fascism the other was tied up with imperialism/capitalism.

So yes, your right, we shouldnt celebrate the role workers played on the fascist side in any way. But equally we shouldnt celebrate the role workers played on the capitalist/imperialist side. Why have you chosen to pick a side in between these two sets of workers who were used as tools in this war? One was fighting for capitalism, the other was fighting for fascism/national socialism. Which is worse? There basically the same.

The funny thing is, the only workers you seem eager to celebrate are those who were in the state army. You constantly slander Irish republicans on this forum, who basically single handedly stopped the fascist movement from taking hold in Ireland. Don't they deserve celebration too?

I think we should celebrate irish republicans who fought british imperialism against the black and tans, those who went to spain (connolly column obviously, not the blueshirts), and all those who resisted british aggression in ireland as equally as we should celebrate the sacrifice of working class people in ww2, i think many irish republicans, especially in the early 20th century are heroes and are part of our and especially my class heirtage and deserve to be honoured as such, and that british soldiers who served in ireland deserve fuck all commemoration from anyone.

[AntiFA-Manchester]

I'll be wearing me as a true socialist.

They smashed the Nazis and for that i'll be forever grateful.

If you don't wear one you may as well have a swastika tattooed on your forehead.

[Uncle Ho]

I don't know why you'd be so proud that the most prolific and horrible Imperial power the world has ever known managed to beat the young upstarts so they could continue to rape and pillage the world without competition.

The Nazis were hardly sunshine and roses, but compared to the British Empire, they were teenage goths smoking in the parking lot. Siding with either is counter-productive.

[Patchd]

Again I think your just demonstrating excactly what he is saying. He is talking about there being nothing wrong with achknowledging the sacrifice of working class people in WW2. I think you are all proving how out of touch you really are.
But the point is that the funds from the Poppy appeal doesn't simply go to WWII or WWI veterans, more so now because many have died by this point. Most of the funds now go into funding volunteer veterans among others, obviously I take into account that many working class people are led into the Armed forces as the only other alternative is being on the dole, I was gunna join the army myself and fuck off uni when I was in my mid-teens but luckily I came round to better politics before I had the chance to.

Point is, I'm not giving money to an organisation that may well give funds to soldiers who, say, you know, were used to break pickets during the Miners' strike, or who sign up due to nationalist reasons. The conditions of veterans is fucking dire, although that's not to say that we should be campaigning for better lives for veterans, we should be campaigning for people to not have to go out and lose a limb for the bosses' state in the first place, so that they don't have to become veterans being treated like shit.

Many in the working class also hate ethnic minorities, or at least in my hometown anyway, should I cater for that simply because it'll put me more in 'touch with the working-class', whatever that means, considering I'm already a member of the working-class selling my labour power in a restaurant, I don't see how much more in touch I could get with my fellow worker.

But no surprise from Bone, seeing as I remember a blog article of his talking about how great England and 'English culture' (whatever the fuck that means) is and why morris dancing was a great English past time :rolleyes: let's stop catering to nationalists please.


I'll be wearing me as a true socialist.

They smashed the Nazis and for that i'll be forever grateful.

If you don't wear one you may as well have a swastika tattooed on your forehead.LOLWUT. Are you really that thick?

Jeez, guess I'll go get that tattoo then. :blink:

To most people, this is the only time in the year they even remember, or even bother themselves with the problems facing those led into the Armed forces. The rest of the year, life goes on just as usual.

[Pogue]

But the point is that the funds from the Poppy appeal doesn't simply go to WWII or WWI veterans, more so now because many have died by this point. Most of the funds now go into funding volunteer veterans among others, obviously I take into account that many working class people are led into the Armed forces as the only other alternative is being on the dole, I was gunna join the army myself and fuck off uni when I was in my mid-teens but luckily I came round to better politics before I had the chance to.

Point is, I'm not giving money to an organisation that may well give funds to soldiers who, say, you know, were used to break pickets during the Miners' strike, or who sign up due to nationalist reasons. The conditions of veterans is fucking dire, although that's not to say that we should be campaigning for better lives for veterans, we should be campaigning for people to not have to go out and lose a limb for the bosses' state in the first place, so that they don't have to become veterans being treated like shit.

Many in the working class also hate ethnic minorities, or at least in my hometown anyway, should I cater for that simply because it'll put me more in 'touch with the working-class', whatever that means, considering I'm already a member of the working-class selling my labour power in a restaurant, I don't see how much more in touch I could get with my fellow worker.

But no surprise from Bone, seeing as I remember a blog article of his talking about how great England and 'English culture' (whatever the fuck that means) is and why morris dancing was a great English past time :rolleyes: let's stop catering to nationalists please.

LOLWUT. Are you really that thick?

Jeez, guess I'll go get that tattoo then. :blink:

To most people, this is the only time in the year they even remember, or even bother themselves with the problems facing those led into the Armed forces. The rest of the year, life goes on just as usual.

Your right, why is why I don't support the poppy charity, but I still think Ian Bone has a point on how we approach that war. I don't think its untoward for us to want to commemorate it in someway, even if its from an anti-war perspective.

But I totally understand you and other people's objections. I think alot of people have been off the mark in their criticisms. For example countless people arguing against me as if I have proposed we celebrate one imperialist faction. Obviously I don't support that, I'm talking about commemorating the sacrifice of individual working class soldiers.

But whatever really, as I expected this discussion wont go anywhere.

[Patchd]

Your right, why is why I don't support the poppy charity, but I still think Ian Bone has a point on how we approach that war. I don't think its untoward for us to want to commemorate it in someway, even if its from an anti-war perspective.
Agreed, lots of working-class people being sent to die deserves commemoration.


But I totally understand you and other people's objections. I think alot of people have been off the mark in their criticisms. For example countless people arguing against me as if I have proposed we celebrate one imperialist faction. Obviously I don't support that, I'm talking about commemorating the sacrifice of individual working class soldiers.

But whatever really, as I expected this discussion wont go anywhere.Sorry if I mistook what you meant mate :tongue_smilie:

[Andropov]

I think we should celebrate irish republicans who fought british imperialism against the black and tans, those who went to spain (connolly column obviously, not the blueshirts), and all those who resisted british aggression in ireland as equally as we should celebrate the sacrifice of working class people in ww2, i think many irish republicans, especially in the early 20th century are heroes and are part of our and especially my class heirtage and deserve to be honoured as such, and that british soldiers who served in ireland deserve fuck all commemoration from anyone.
How come before in a debate you stated that you would join the British Army before you would join the Provos?

[Andropov]

What are the figures for the amount of deaths from British Imperialism again?
If im not wrong they exceed that of the NAZI holocaust but sure rap it in some good old British Chauvanism, throw in progressive a few times into the debate and bobs your uncle a nice old Imperial White Wash, now where do I buy my poppy?

[Pogue]

How come before in a debate you stated that you would join the British Army before you would join the Provos?

I wasn't aware the IRA was fighting a war against Hitler, my mistake.

[Pogue]

What are the figures for the amount of deaths from British Imperialism again?
If im not wrong they exceed that of the NAZI holocaust but sure rap it in some good old British Chauvanism, throw in progressive a few times into the debate and bobs your uncle a nice old Imperial White Wash, now where do I buy my poppy?

Is there a reason why you have a overiding desire to completely ignore everything I have said in this thread, or are you just thick?

[Andropov]

I wasn't aware the IRA was fighting a war against Hitler, my mistake.
Link to where I stated the IRA were fighting a war against Hitler?

[Andropov]

Is there a reason why you have a overiding desire to completely ignore everything I have said in this thread, or are you just thick?
Do you have the arrogance to suggest that was directed at you?

[Pogue]

How come before in a debate you stated that you would join the British Army before you would join the Provos?

I said I would have joined the British Army if it was a means to fight Hitler during WW2, so why would I ever join the Provos, seeing as they weren't fighting Hitler?

[Pogue]

Do you have the arrogance to suggest that was directed at you?

Maybe make it a little bit clearer then, i.e. quote who your addressing it too.

[Andropov]

I said I would have joined the British Army if it was a means to fight Hitler during WW2, so why would I ever join the Provos, seeing as they weren't fighting Hitler?
You stated...

I think we should celebrate irish republicans who fought british imperialism against the black and tans, those who went to spain (connolly column obviously, not the blueshirts), and all those who resisted british aggression in ireland
So why did you state before that you would have joined the British Army before you would join the PIRA in regaurds to Ireland?
Or have you just changed your political perspective?
Its an honest question, not having a go.

[Andropov]

Maybe make it a little bit clearer then, i.e. quote who your addressing it too.
Ehhh no, how about I make a point with regaurds to Poppy Day and you dont have the arrogance to assume im addressing you.
Simples.

[Devrim]

Please explain how the USSR help to Cuba was 'imperialist' because I believe thats a stupid remark

It depends if you think that the USSR at that time was a socialist state of whatever sort or an imperialist one.

Devrim

[Devrim]

The ICC are holding a public forum in London on the nature of the Second World War:
World War Two: ‘Good war’ or imperialist massacre? (http://www.revleft.com/vb/icc-public-forum-t121125/index.html?p=1584573#post1584573)

Saturday 14 November
2pm
Conway Hall
Red Lion Square
London WC1

Devrim

[Hoggy_RS]

I don't think anyone on here would support an imperialist army, so why would any of ye wear a poppy?

The British Army has caused many more years of oppression than the nazis did. Id hold both armies in the same regard(both armies had working class bases but were controlled by scum).

[Stranger Than Paradise]

It is important to commemorate the event from a pro-working class perspective I feel. We must denounce the bourgeois imperialist armies but at the same time remember the working class people the Capitalists sent to die in their imperialist wars.

[Pogue]

It is important to commemorate the event from a pro-working class perspective I feel. We must denounce the bourgeois imperialist armies but at the same time remember the working class people the Capitalists sent to die in their imperialist wars.

This is essentially what I was getting at.

[Pogue]

The ICC are holding a public forum in London on the nature of the Second World War:
World War Two: ‘Good war’ or imperialist massacre? (http://www.revleft.com/vb/icc-public-forum-t121125/index.html?p=1584573#post1584573)

Saturday 14 November
2pm
Conway Hall
Red Lion Square
London WC1

Devrim

I'm interested to attend this.

[Andropov]

It is important to commemorate the event from a pro-working class perspective I feel. We must denounce the bourgeois imperialist armies but at the same time remember the working class people the Capitalists sent to die in their imperialist wars.
Is that not what the white poppy is for?

[ls]

Is that not what the white poppy is for?

This is a very good point actually.

As for participation in WWII, I don't feel any longer that you 'have to get in to get out' ie participate in this kind of imperialist war on the side of an imperialist faction and expect to not end up doing things that you did not wish/had no control over. For instance, you are helping out Churchill consolidate popular support for his government in the name of "fighting Nazism", we must remember this man was extremely reactionary even by capitalist standards, you can argue that was "of the time", but it certainly wasn't to his extent. Also, you may have been asked to repress workers and even communists in Britain upon your return, remember that once you join the army, they have quite a lot of control over you.

The anarchists who supported WWI and fighting in WWII were denigrating the class-struggle imo. Real shame that massive factions supported this imperialist war without a true class-struggle perspective.

Having said all of this, there are people in this thread that support, for instance, the popular front during the scw, so I think some people's points are rather contradictory myself.

[Stranger Than Paradise]

Is that not what the white poppy is for?

No the white poppy is a pacifist poppy. It does not represent a working class perspective of the events of previous imperialist wars.

[Andropov]

No the white poppy is a pacifist poppy. It does not represent a working class perspective of the events of previous imperialist wars.
From my knowledge it does not represnt pacafism.
It actually represents the slaughter of the two great Imperialist Wars.

[Devrim]

No the white poppy is a pacifist poppy. It does not represent a working class perspective of the events of previous imperialist wars.

That was the impression I was under to. I think they are produced by the Peace Pledge Union. That said although it doesn't represent a revolutionary perspective, it is less stomach churning than having to read anarchists trying to incorporate one of the symbols of British imperialism into their politics in the name of connecting to the class.

Devrim

[Stranger Than Paradise]

That was the impression I was under to. I think they are produced by the Peace Pledge Union. That said although it doesn't represent a revolutionary perspective, it is less stomach churning than having to read anarchists trying to incorporate one of the symbols of British imperialism into their politics in the name of connecting to the class.

Devrim

No, no one has said they want to incorporate one of the symbols of British imperialism into their politics. We said we should have our own rememberance of the working class people who died in these wars from a revolutionary perspective.

[Devrim]

No, no one has said they want to incorporate one of the symbols of British imperialism into their politics.

Ian Bone did:


Despite its annual proximity to Remembrance Sunday I can never recall seeing anyone at the Anarchist Bookfair wearing a poppy. Maybe this year – as the outporing – indeed out of the closet – support for our WW2 fighters on the previous post demonstrates – some poppy wearers might be a first step before we contemplate a wreath laying at local war memorials or the Cenotaph. Certainly anything at the Cenotaph ought to be heartfelt and low key……..but we really ought to be reclaiming the day from Royals and Party leaders.It was our fucking class that won the war – maybe at long last we can show some pride in it. I did wear a poppy last year on the Notting HilL BTR march and there was a furious response on the Libcom Forum from one indivdual like it was the sell out of a lifetime!!


We said we should have our own rememberance of the working class people who died in these wars from a revolutionary perspective.

Are you talking about all wars, or just the Second World War as I an seems to be there?

Devrim

[Devrim]

http://www.illustrationartgallery.com/acatalog/NicolleTPL221detail.jpg (http://uk.wrs.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0WTf2r32eZKZAkBkylWBQx./SIG=12qicuvp6/EXP=1256729463/**http%3A//www.illustrationartgallery.com/acatalog/NicolleTPL221detail.jpg)HOWZAT! Miller takes out Nazi’s middle stump!



It sort of reminds me of the 'GOTCHA' headline in the Sun.

Devrim

[Stranger Than Paradise]

Forget what Ian Bone said, no one is agreeing with him on here.

[ls]

That was the impression I was under to. I think they are produced by the Peace Pledge Union. That said although it doesn't represent a revolutionary perspective

So do you recommend that people wear 'revolutionary' things that others will not understand like red & black poppies? How about that communist international review logo with the old allied & axis WWII map behind it? I can't see that catching on. Having said that, I'm not big on the idea of helping fund the peace pledge union, so I'd rather be able to get them from another source.

[Devrim]

Forget what Ian Bone said, no one is agreeing with him on here.

Well Pogue seemed to be to me.


So do you recommend that people wear 'revolutionary' things that others will not understand like red & black poppies? How about that communist international review logo with the old allied & axis WWII map behind it? I can't see that catching on. Having said that, I'm not big on the idea of helping fund the peace pledge union, so I'd rather be able to get them from another source.

No, I don't recommend anything. I just don't find the white ones as objectionable.

Devrim

[Pogue]

Well Pogue seemed to be to me.



No, I don't recommend anything. I just don't find the white ones as objectionable.

Devrim

I said I think he has a point but more in terms of how we approach alot of things, i.e. we have a blanket dismissal of things we could offer a sound perspective on, for example we could commemorate WW2 but from our own perspective.

[PRC-UTE]

what a painfully stupid blog post. of course I don't think there's anything wrong with one valuing their own nations' culture- be it English or whatever. but this is moronic; no-one is oppressing English culture, though I get the feeling that he thinks that, re his comment about borders. :rolleyes:


But the point is that the funds from the Poppy appeal doesn't simply go to WWII or WWI veterans, more so now because many have died by this point. Most of the funds now go into funding volunteer veterans among others, obviously I take into account that many working class people are led into the Armed forces as the only other alternative is being on the dole, I was gunna join the army myself and fuck off uni when I was in my mid-teens but luckily I came round to better politics before I had the chance to.

tbh, if the poppy was about honouring WWII vets, I wouldn't really object. but as you just said, this is not really about WWII. what Ian Bone is doing is lying. he suggests that anyone not wearing a poppy is basically soft on the Nazis. Britain's current wars aren't against fascists, and they're not conscript armies- they're men who volunteer to murder and oppress British and American colonies.

Now I can see now why Class War has attacked the irps over the years. They denounced our statement for solidarity with the Communist Youth who were being outlawed and driven underground, they and other anarchists even called us "nationalists" when the Youth section fo the IRSP released a solidarity statement with Russian anarchists being murdered by fascists.

anyway, that's a lot clearer now.

[Devrim]

what a painfully stupid blog post. of course I don't think there's anything wrong with one valuing their own nations' culture- be it English or whatever. but this is moronic; no-one is oppressing English culture, though I get the feeling that he thinks that, re his comment about borders. :rolleyes:

I have doubts about the whole culture question. What is this English culture that people 'value'? I presume they are not talking about Morris dancing, and Maypoles and the like.

The point about capitalism and its increasing globalisation is that it destroys traditional culture. Nowhere is this more true than in England the home of capitalism where this process has been in motion longest.There is no 'English culture' today. Not that there ever was at all. The whole idea of a national culture was mostly a national myth anyway.


Now I can see now why Class War has attacked the irps over the years. They denounced our statement for solidarity with the Communist Youth who were being outlawed and driven underground, they and other anarchists even called us "nationalists" when the Youth section fo the IRSP released a solidarity statement with Russian anarchists being murdered by fascists.

anyway, that's a lot clearer now.

I think you are confusing your anarchists here. Class War are probably the British anarchists most synpathetic to Irish Republicanism:


The Irish Republicans and Us
We have to be clear about our attitude here, a situation like this is an acid-test of our politics. So far we have avoided going into the long list of atrocities and horrors that the British ruling class have inflicted on the Irish and continue to do so to this date. We do not intend to morally blackmail you into supporting the Republicans as do many of the British Left.
What is a problem however is the moralism that our ruling class plant in our heads. In their terms killing, torture and starvation are legitimate methods of pursuing their interests and is sanctioned by the State, explained by educationalists and blessed by the Church. For instance it is well known, and well documented, that undercover units from the UDR, RUC, Army and SAS etc. have been involved in random sectarian killings, torture and the execution of Catholics and Republican activists. Yet we are told that it is only the IRA etc. that do this. We must not forget the scale of the propaganda war that the British State is waging over Northern Ireland, or that the main target of that war is us, the British working class.
Throughout the rest of the world Ireland is seen as suffering from British occupation and aggression. Ireland is seen as a war situation not a 'terrorist' problem caused by a few evil nutters, as we are told in the Britain.
When a group of people take on the superior organised might of the State and use force they have to use "all means necessary"� as the black revolutionary Malcolm X pointed out. The only rules of war are that there are no rules except to kill the enemy, and World War One and Two, Vietnam and the Gulf War prove the point. There is no nice way to kill another human being. The outcry from the Left over the killing of three unarmed IRA volunteers in Gibraltar should be compared with a statement from the IRA on BBC radio;
"We understand the rules of war, all we ask is that you admit that your forces shot our volunteers on sight as we would expect to do to yours, and stop pretending otherwise."�
During the Algerian war against the French, women and children were used to plant bombs. Criticised for this by the French, the Algerians replied "give us tanks and aeroplanes and we will gladly use them instead!"� The French of course practised every conceivable barbarity in the pursuit of 'civilisation'.
Dreadful mistakes and the accidental killing of innocent people are what happens in war and we see no reason to believe that the coming class war between our class and our oppressors and enemies is going to be any different.
The Irish Republicans have made many mistakes and would be the first to agree. Some of these were plainly because of the lack of class politics, such as the Birmingham pub bombings where the enemy were seen as the English in general. Such actions are to say the least hard to explain or defend, except on the grounds of utter desperation. The more recent tactic of attacking military, political and economic targets is a more positive development.
As we pointed out in our general commentary on nationalism in Chapter Two we must remember that desperation often motivates those involved in anti-imperial struggles and this can be very difficult for many people to understand in a country like the UK. While we agree with the removal of such imperial and colonial oppression we argue and fight against the 'local' oppression waiting in the wings to take over the local management of capitalism.
James Connoly was dead clear about this difference between national liberation and the class war. On the eve of the 1916 rising during a lecture on the methods of guerilla war he advised the Irish Citizen Army as follows;
"If we should win, hold on to your rifles because the volunteers [nationalists] may have a different goal. Remember we're out not only for political liberty but for economic liberty as well. So hold on to your rifles."�
It is worth repeating here our attitude to nationalism from Chapter One;
"What we must understand is that in the face of often brutal oppression nationalism gives working class people something. This 'something' is identity, pride, a feeling of community and solidarity and of course physical self-defence. We need to combat capitalism and its nationalism with something as strong i.e. - with our identity, pride, community, solidarity, history, culture and inspiration of the international working class's. To achieve this effectively will require courage, imagination and determination. To challenge nationalist ideas means doing more than saying that they are bad, we must prove that fighting for our class is better than fighting for a country."�
In Northern Ireland the Republicans do try to attack what they consider legitimate targets; the security forces and those who work for them, economic targets, and members of Loyalist paramilitary groups. In contrast the security forces and Loyalist groups consider it OK to kill any Catholic as part of their policy of terrorising the whole community, and of course IRA members etc. when they can get them are also targets.
To say the IRA are responsible for dividing the working class in Northern Ireland would be about as sensible as blaming the blacks in South Africa for apartheid. The IRA are a symptom of a divided class and not the cause.
The British State has split and counter split the Irish people for the last 300 years. But the British ruling class has not had it all its own way over these years. Time and time again the Irish have united across the sectarian divide to drive out those who have used religious bigotry as a tool for ensuring Ireland is kept under direct rule from Britain.
Things will continue to become more and more difficult for the capitalists as the Irish working class realise that their interests are best served by uniting across the sectarian divide to smash not only capitalism but all those who have helped perpetuate direct rule from Britain.
We do support the struggle against the British State in Northern Ireland as we support all working class people fighting against oppression and look forward to the removal of British domination. We do not give uncritical support to any nationalist organisation.
We look forward to the struggle against oppression being widened in Ireland to include that against capitalism, both British and Irish, and the Catholic and Protestant churches. We also greatly look forward to the Protestant working class regaining its proud older tradition of unity with the rest of their class against oppression from both outside Ireland and within.


Anyway, Ian hasn't been a member for years.

Devrim

[PRC-UTE]

Okay that's good to know that Ian hasn't been a member in years.

[ls]

Anyway, Ian hasn't been a member for years.

Devrim

You sure about this? He sure does talk about them a lot if he isn't a member, I know he founded it but still.

[Devrim]

You sure about this? He sure does talk about them a lot if he isn't a member, I know he founded it but still.

Yes, as certain as you can be.

Devrim

[Das war einmal]

It depends if you think that the USSR at that time was a socialist state of whatever sort or an imperialist one.

Devrim


This kind of argument is hollowing out concepts like imperialism.

[The Ungovernable Farce]

I have doubts about the whole culture question. What is this English culture that people 'value'? I presume they are not talking about Morris dancing, and Maypoles and the like.

Sadly, at least one person is: http://ianbone.wordpress.com/2009/06/11/in-praise-of-england-and-morris-dancing/


Last night I was watching some women Morris Dancing outside an African boozer in South London and I thought ‘England’s great aint it’. I should add I love Morris Dancing ever since I attended the WYLAM GOOSE FAIR up the Tyne Valley many moons ago and saw a load of Morris Men clobber a load of nuisance lads who’d been taking the piss... During WW2 FRANK NEWBOLD produced some propaganda posters for the government which were the most un-war like propaganda posters you could ever seen - one featuring a shepherd strolling over the South Downs with his sheep and another picturing a fairground with the slogan underneath ‘IT’S YOUR BRITAIN – FIGHT FOR IT’. It is our England – not theirs – we shouldn’t be ashamed to fight for it back.
It's a shame, there's actually a lot of things I admire about Class War, at least their classic mid-80s-to-97 incarnation, so it's quite embarrassing to see Bone degenerate so far in his old age.

[The Deepest Red]

I think we should celebrate irish republicans who fought british imperialism against the black and tans, those who went to spain (connolly column obviously, not the blueshirts), and all those who resisted british aggression in ireland as equally as we should celebrate the sacrifice of working class people in ww2, i think many irish republicans, especially in the early 20th century are heroes and are part of our and especially my class heirtage and deserve to be honoured as such, and that british soldiers who served in ireland deserve fuck all commemoration from anyone.

What was so particularly great about Irish Republicans in the early 20th century? Labour, Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil all consider this period to be the source of their political lineage. As far as I can tell the objectives of the purely nationalistic Republican project have remained unchanged for centuries. In what way do (in political terms that is) the "Real IRA" differ from the United Irishmen or the Irish Republican Brotherhood?

[Devrim]

Sadly, at least one person is: http://ianbone.wordpress.com/2009/06/11/in-praise-of-england-and-morris-dancing/

Oh my God. That really is repulsive.


It's a shame, there's actually a lot of things I admire about Class War, at least their classic mid-80s-to-97 incarnation, so it's quite embarrassing to see Bone degenerate so far in his old age.

What do you admire? It didn't seem that admirably at the time.

Devrim

[ls]

Oh my God. That really is repulsive.

I thought it was ok the first time I saw it a few months ago but yes, it does read a bit crassly. The comments in particular are something else, I'm not sure why some of them haven't been deleted but it certainly does not look good.


What do you admire? It didn't seem that admirably at the time.

As someone who lives in a place where they were extremely active previously, you should see how disgustingly gentrified it is, it really does get to me beyond words.

Sorry, but the thought of loud, unapologetic collective resentment of the kinds of people I see everyday and have as neighbours is something I would gladly welcome. ;) I do agree with some of the criticisms of class war such as burning that effigy though, it was pretty racist, as such I don't think this group are the right group for me.

[bricolage]

Problem with Class War (aside from the hero worship and regular descent into nationalism) is they seem completely stuck in the 80s. At the bookfair this year their entire stall seem to be covered with stickers related to Thatcher which begs the question what will they do when she actually does die? To be honest I think WAG today are a lot better at doing the good bits of Class War than Class War (as they currently stand) ever could be.

[Stranger Than Paradise]

Yes Class War in recent times has done some pretty questionable things. I know of one person on here who is in Class War, it would be good if they could tell us if these things were one-offs and how they were perceived by the rest of the organisation.

[Holden Caulfield]

http://img239.imageshack.us/img239/8933/pic1vv5.jpg

I got a dressing down from a set of very decent republican socialists, and am on the verge of revising my position.

the lesson being that its not a bad thing to admit being wrong