How do you explain the failure of communism in the 20th century?

[USA Empire Imperial Corps]

Communism failed, capitalism is still here.

What caused the Soviet Union, Red China, etc. to fail from a communist POV?


What were the mistakes? And what do you as a communist plan to do differently to avoid the mistakes?

I am all ears.


Though quite frankly, I'm surprised that people above 25 still think communism is a good idea.

[Kwisatz Haderach]

Communism failed, capitalism is still here.
Yeah, sorry about that. We've encountered some technical difficulties. Fortunately, the capitalists are currently hard at work reminding everyone just how much their economic system can do to screw the working class, so we should be returning to our regularly scheduled periodic revolutionary waves very soon. :cool:


What caused the Soviet Union, Red China, etc. to fail from a communist POV?
That is still a subject of controversy among communists. Essentially, there are 3 contending explanations:

1. A failure of leadership. Some communists argue that the USSR, PRC etc. were intentionally destroyed from the top. This was allegedly done because the leadership had become corrupt and wanted to gain the increased power and wealth that would come with a restoration of capitalism (or a move towards any other kind of exploitative system). This theory can be further subdivided into three sub-theories: one that blames Stalin for betraying the revolution, one that believes the USSR entered a period of fatal decline under Khrushchev, and one that argues things were mostly fine until Gorbachev came to power and intentionally destroyed the USSR. With regards to China, everyone agrees that the regime of Deng Xiaoping was at fault.

2. The impossibility of building socialism in one (non-industrialized) country. Without going into the details of Marxist theory, it's enough to say that we believe socialism and communism can only be built with the active participation of the working class. If you're trying to build them in a country where the working class is small or non-existent, you have a problem. Some communists believe this problem to be insurmountable. In that case, the Russian and Chinese revolutions ultimately failed because they tried to build socialism in countries that were too underdeveloped. For the record, Lenin and the early Bolsheviks predicted that their revolution would fail unless it quickly spread to more advanced, industrialized countries.

3. Undemocratic institutions. All communists agree that democracy and working class control over the government are absolutely essential. Many believe these things were lacking in the Russian and Chinese revolutions, which allowed for the birth of a new ruling class, which caused the failure of those revolutions. Within this theory, there are different ideas as to why those revolutions were not as democratic as they should have been.

Of course, it is possible to combine the above three theories in various ways. For example, I believe the lack of a sufficiently large working class (theory #2) was to blame for the relative absence of democratic institutions (theory #3), which ultimately led to the rise of a new ruling class that decided to restore capitalism in order to serve their own interests at the expense of the people (theory #1).


And what do you as a communist plan to do differently to avoid the mistakes?
We intend to make damn sure that the working class is in charge of society after the revolution, and that there is a functioning democracy in place.

If we are to have a revolution in a country with a small working class (an increasingly unlikely scenario, due to the rapid industrialization of most of the world), we intend to make every effort to spread the revolution to industrialized countries.

And the democracy thing should also eliminate the possibility of getting idiots like Gorbachev in charge.

[#FF0000]

In addition to KH's spot-on post, I want to point out that Russia and China didn't really have a history of democratic institutions. It's rather hard to get things right when you're trying to reorganize a country, when you don't have a practical guideline to look back on for either your new economic OR political system in a particular country with particular conditions.

[mikelepore]

What caused the Soviet Union, Red China, etc. to fail from a communist POV?

Lack of democratic control by the workers. A classless society must have the workplace administered like a Lockean-Jeffersonian republic. If it isn't, any supposed "socialist revolution" merely invents a new kind of ruling class.

[Red Icepick]

Bah! Democracy is shit. The true democracy is the Socialist dictator by consent. True democracy is when the people remove evil government by action not meaningless vote.

It was the USA that was responsible with their "Cold War"mongering that no one else wanted. It's hard to organize workers when some capitalist pig is pointing nuclear missiles at you. The USA was also willing to prostitute itself economically to do things that Socialist nations won't. The deathblow to the Soviet Union was when the USA convinced the Wahabi theocratic monarchs of Saudi Arabia to lower their oil to prices the Soviet Union could not compete at. It was a devilish trick, but the USA is burying itself. So gloat about your empire now while you still have it. Remember that history isn't over.

Another thing is that the USA was able to infect populations with their consumerism. Much like how Christianity appealed to man's weakness to spread around the world(just like how democracy does), the USA was able to do the same. People would say, "Hey, putting socialism together is work! Why don't I just live a life of debt servitude while I sip Coca Cola and rot away my brain with idiotic television and music devoid of any culture." If you give people the easy way out, the majority will take it every time. That's why Capitalism, Christianity, and Democracy are so popular, and it's why democracy degrades itself further and further with each passing election.

[RED ARMY FACTION]

one reason any revolution has failed.

they did not have me with them, otherwise i would have said my famous lines.

oi capitalists why dont you shut up and mind your own buisness, or ill break your face, or my brother phill will break your face.
hearing my lines they fled like frightened little field mice

so remember saturday 6 oclock hard man in afghanistan
ross kemp

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

Bah! Democracy is shit. The true democracy is the Socialist dictator by consent. True democracy is when the people remove evil government by action not meaningless vote.

It was the USA that was responsible with their "Cold War"mongering that no one else wanted. It's hard to organize workers when some capitalist pig is pointing nuclear missiles at you. The USA was also willing to prostitute itself economically to do things that Socialist nations won't. The deathblow to the Soviet Union was when the USA convinced the Wahabi theocratic monarchs of Saudi Arabia to lower their oil to prices the Soviet Union could not compete at. It was a devilish trick, but the USA is burying itself. So gloat about your empire now while you still have it. Remember that history isn't over.

Another thing is that the USA was able to infect populations with their consumerism. Much like how Christianity appealed to man's weakness to spread around the world(just like how democracy does), the USA was able to do the same. People would say, "Hey, putting socialism together is work! Why don't I just live a life of debt servitude while I sip Coca Cola and rot away my brain with idiotic television and music devoid of any culture." If you give people the easy way out, the majority will take it every time. That's why Capitalism, Christianity, and Democracy are so popular, and it's why democracy degrades itself further and further with each passing election.

http://media.ebaumsworld.com/mediaFiles/picture/517631/698617.jpg

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

so remember saturday 6 oclock hard man in afghanistan
ross kemp

Is it going to be on the internet or rerun later, sadly I may miss ross kemp.

[RED ARMY FACTION]

fuck him, playing hero in an impearialist war.

[Bud Struggle]

KH--really great post.


Bah! Democracy is shit. The true democracy is the Socialist dictator by consent. True democracy is when the people remove evil government by action not meaningless vote. That may be the case--but the verbage of things like "dictator by concent" isn't somethhing that is likely to win many converts. The idea of "Soviets" is interesting, but unfortunately the Soviet Union was lacking in soviets alltogether so no one really knows if the idea really works in practice.


It was the USA that was responsible with their "Cold War"mongering that no one else wanted. It's hard to organize workers when some capitalist pig is pointing nuclear missiles at you. The USA was also willing to prostitute itself economically to do things that Socialist nations won't. No, I think it was a two way street. Both sides were equally as interested in spreading their ideology. Stalin set up a network of Soviet controlled operatives as well as the CPUSA in America with the express intent of distroying the American government--something that was sure to produce a reaction from the people in charge. Also, things like the Berlin Wall (I couldn't imagine a worse public relations idea) and unsightly, uncharaismatic and overly doctrinaire officials scared people off considerably. Further the SU did little to oranize workers they were too busy pointing missiles of their own.


The deathblow to the Soviet Union was when the USA convinced the Wahabi theocratic monarchs of Saudi Arabia to lower their oil to prices the Soviet Union could not compete at. It was a devilish trick, but the USA is burying itself. So gloat about your empire now while you still have it. Remember that history isn't over. Well it was a little more than lower oil prices. The government of the SU somewhere along the line ceased to represent the Russial people and really ceased to represent Communism. There was very little protest when the Soviet Union fell. Communism deserved what it got in Russia.


Another thing is that the USA was able to infect populations with their consumerism. Much like how Christianity appealed to man's weakness to spread around the world(just like how democracy does), the USA was able to do the same. People would say, "Hey, putting socialism together is work! Why don't I just live a life of debt servitude while I sip Coca Cola and rot away my brain with idiotic television and music devoid of any culture." If you give people the easy way out, the majority will take it every time. That's why Capitalism, Christianity, and Democracy are so popular, and it's why democracy degrades itself further and further with each passing election.You are spot on there--and consumerism is going to be on difficult habit to shake. People have always been willing to sell their birthright for a bowl of porridge.

[revolution inaction]

Communism failed, capitalism is still here.

What caused the Soviet Union, Red China, etc. to fail from a communist POV?

since the soviet union and china where never communist i'm not sure how any failure of these states has anything to do with the viability of communism?



What were the mistakes? And what do you as a communist plan to do differently to avoid the mistakes?

the bigeset mastake made be many communists was to think that the bolshevikes had anything to do with communism, and that the bolshevikes represented the interests of the workers, this made it much easier for them to gain power and suppress the revolution.

To prevent this hapening again we must shot the bolshevikes at the stat before its to late :D
Sorry i mean build workers power and self organisation so that when the revolution happens they take power for themselves and don't tolerate any leaders taking power on there behalf.



I am all ears.

that must be a terrible affliction



Though quite frankly, I'm surprised that people above 25 still think communism is a good idea.
whats even more amazing is that anyone who isn't part of the ruling class thinks that capitalism is a good idea.

[Hiero]

Failed at what?

Do you even know the point of a revolution?

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

fuck him, playing hero in an impearialist war.

Say what you like but he does make damn entertaining television.

[RED ARMY FACTION]

Failed at what?

Do you even know the point of a revolution?

to make liquorish a thing of the past?

[RED ARMY FACTION]

i do like it when he shits his pants and yells at the camera man lol

[Radical]

The Collapse of Communism was due to Revisionism and a hostile Capitalist World that constantly tried to destroy the Soviet Union.

[RED ARMY FACTION]

dosent help when a bald reformist dismantles the biggest socialist force on earth

[Matty_UK]

Communism failed, capitalism is still here.

What caused the Soviet Union, Red China, etc. to fail from a communist POV?


What were the mistakes? And what do you as a communist plan to do differently to avoid the mistakes?

I am all ears.


Though quite frankly, I'm surprised that people above 25 still think communism is a good idea.

Firstly, you have to abandon understanding politics in market terms - most westerners seem to believe that there is a selection of pre-packaged ideologies that a country can choose and implement, but the economic conditions of and contradicting social interests within a country have more impact on how history unfolds than ideas or the intentions of individual leaders do. "Men make history, but not as they please," to quote Marx.

All the "Communist" revolutions that have taken place thus far have been in underdeveloped (relative to the west) nations. There is a historical reason for this - western capitalism derives super-profits from a high rate of exploitation in workplaces abroad, and so can afford to supply the working class within their own borders with relatively high living standards. In the age of imperialism, when the current world economic system was established, cheap western goods ruined the indigenous industries of the rest of the world, meaning their economies have become completely dominated by western capital. The problem with this is that it makes the development of industrial capitalism within their nations impossible as indigenous businesses cannot compete, and they get reduced to exporting raw materials or producing cheap commodities for low wages where most of the profit goes to western investors.

Another effect of this is that it creates a small comprador class which acts as a middle man between western imperialism and indigenous labour, and come to share interests with western capital. This class tends to be made up of pre-existing "feudal" (for lack of a better word) elites from landholding (and often aristocratic) families. As the emerging capitalist class is often (but not entirely) tied to western interests also, this creates a situation where the capitalist class does not have the same progressive role it did in European countries and tends to side the old feudal ruling class in service of western imperialism. It cannot carry out the progressive role it carried out in the French Revolution and analagous processes in western Europe and the USA.

For this reason, a revolution against the remnants of feudalism necassarily had to take on the character of a class war, and an anti-capitalist war. The development of the nation's infrastructure required protection against western competition and the use of largely domestic resources to rapidly develop industry and infrastructure via a planned economy. The unwillingness of Chinese or Russian elites to do this meant that the peasantry with the proletariat had to take the lead politically.

Both Lenin and Mao recognised that their revolutions had a "bourgeois" character, even if they weren't led by the bourgeoisie. If we understand this, then in some sense they were successful revolutions - they created relatively powerful and modern capitalist nations.

They failed because, if we define a communist revolution as a revolution where the proletariat (wage earners) takes political and economic power, then they were not communist revolutions - the proletariat was too small in the countries where revolutions took place, precisely because of their underdevelopment which spawned revolutions in the first place. (this is a gross oversimplification - there were many factors, internal and external)

The conditions for communism are desperately present in the first world today. Most people are employed in hopelessly superfluous jobs - call centres, public relations, service jobs, advertising, sales, and so on. There is a massive crisis of unemployment/underemployment, which is only going to get worse. There is an endless production of waste which is destroying the environment and poses a historically unprecedented threat to the very survival of the human race.

A communist revolution in the west could abolish much of the aforementioned jobs that only exist to serve capitalism, and simply divide up the work that actually needs to be done rather than leaving people unemployed. This way, as time goes by, less and less mundane work will be needed to be done and more and more time for science and the arts will be opened up. By organising the economy democratically rather than for the profit of the few, we could quite easily create more fulfilling, happy, and stress-free lives for the human race.

[USA Empire Imperial Corps]

I will pry into your minds further.

What is your response to the accusations against the communists, including, but not limited to:

1. Being responsible for massive famines due to inefficiency and forced industrialization.

2. Killing millions of your own people

3. Sending dissenters to gulags

4. Not letting people move




Go ahead.

[Weezer]

Communism failed, capitalism is still here.

What caused the Soviet Union, Red China, etc. to fail from a communist POV?


What were the mistakes? And what do you as a communist plan to do differently to avoid the mistakes?

I am all ears.


Though quite frankly, I'm surprised that people above 25 still think communism is a good idea.

You're either a troll or you're a sadly mislead person.

There were no "communist countries" in the 20th Century. Communism doesn't have a state, stop just leeching on the Republican Party's misinformation.

The reason socialism failed in the 20th Century is because the countries were not very socialist at all. The proletariat rarely controlled the means of production, it was mostly a group of individuals who sought to profit from the revolution who controlled the means of production.

While these countries' mistakes have blown out of proportion by reactionaries, it doesn't take them anyway. Gulags were just awful. Just fucking awful. The lack of democracy and choice for the proletariat further brought forth the dismantling of socialism in 1988-1991. People just got tried of being bossed around, and Gorbachev's reforms brought socialism down further.

Communism never happened, sir. Not on the scale that revolution has in mind for.

[Lyev]

I will pry into your minds further.

What is your response to the accusations against the communists, including, but not limited to:

1. Being responsible for massive famines due to inefficiency and forced industrialization.

2. Killing millions of your own people

3. Sending dissenters to gulags

4. Not letting people move




Go ahead.

My favourite part of this incredibly astute and intelligent argument is the cheeky little 'Go ahead' at the end and I really like it that you left a few more spaces just to make it that little more scathing; I don't why this whole website doesn't flock over to the winning side and join you in enlightenment. Thanks for 'prying into our minds', mister.

But seriously, I'm not sure if there is actually any coherant link between the ideology of communism and 'inefficiency and forced industrialisation', ie. 'inefficiency and forced industrialisation' aren't exclusive to 'communism'.

And 'killing... your people' is kind of vague, could you expand on that?

'sending dissenters to the gulags' could easily be replaced with 'sending innocent men and women to Guantanamo Bay, where normal human rights don't exist'. You seem to be trying refute supposed 'communism' on the ground that the polar opposite (capitalism) is totally clean of blood, which it is not at all.

And, the last one, 'not letting people move'? What's that suppose to mean?

[Jazzratt]

I will pry into your minds further.

What is your response to the accusations against the communists, including, but not limited to:

1. Being responsible for massive famines due to inefficiency and forced industrialization.

2. Killing millions of your own people

3. Sending dissenters to gulags

4. Not letting people move




Go ahead.

While it should have been obvious from the replies you've got so far that it's more complex than that I'll make one point: Why does the sending of dissenters to gulags when you admit that your political position on dissent is even more barbaric.


I don't think liberals, communists, socialists, etc. deserve free speech. Anyone who openly speaks out against capitalism, OR tries to challenge our privileged place in the world, should be immediately imprisoned and their children sent to re-education camps.

It seems completely inconsistent to take a position against the anti-dessent policies of the USSR when you hold worse ones yourself.

[RHIZOMES]

I will pry into your minds further.

What is your response to the accusations against the communists, including, but not limited to:

1. Being responsible for massive famines due to inefficiency and forced industrialization.

2. Killing millions of your own people

3. Sending dissenters to gulags

4. Not letting people move




Go ahead.

I'll let other people answer that (since I need to study for my exams and I'm wasting precious time by being on this site right now) but I'll pose a few questions to you, how do you explain for capitalism:

1. The millions of people killed in US imperialist wars, both overt in the case of the Spanish/Vietnam/Afghanistan/Iraq and covert in the case of practically the fucking entirety of Latin America

2. People dying in third world sweatshops so your capitalist corporations can make a quick buck

3. Not letting people (working class immigrants) move (:p)

4. Slavery

5. The numerous examples in history of cracking down on workers wanting a wage that they can actually, y'know, survive off

Anyone else wanna add to this list of questions?

[#FF0000]

You're either a troll, you're a sadly mislead person.

Someone who asks these questions aren't necessarily trolls or sadly mislead people. They're just ignorant of leftist politics which isn't at all unusual. You came off as a little condescending.

Even though yeah I think this particular guy is a troll.

[Weezer]

Someone who asks these questions aren't necessarily trolls or sadly mislead people. They're just ignorant of leftist politics which isn't at all unusual. You came off as a little condescending.

Even though yeah I think this particular guy is a troll.

Firstly, "You're either a troll or you're a sadly mislead person." My post should've been like that, but I thought sadly mislead person would've been synonymous with someone ignorant on the subject of leftist politics.

[Bud Struggle]

There were no "communist countries" in the 20th Century. Communism doesn't have a state, stop just leeching on the Republican Party's misinformation.

I just want to point out that the fact that Communism never really happened isn't exactly common knowledge in the Western world. The SU and China were just "the Communists." There's not much thought or teaching put into to the economic or political philosophy of these countries in America at least--just those were the Commies.

It's hardly the OP's fault for being never taught properly. The Cold War was more than about troops and Star Wars defense systems. It was about brainwashing the masses. Just look around RevLeft and see how many "Commies In Good Standing" support Stalin and all his works and pomps. If RevLeft Commies buy into that crap--how could you expect a normal Red Blooded American to know more.

Give him a chance and you may get a convert--run him off and he stays an enemy.


The OP is the result of 40 years of Cold War. He may not be stupid. Be decent give him a chance.

[Edit] Just found this on the Inmate Intro thread.

Seems a bit Trollish

http://www.revleft.com/vb/inmate-39-s-t60521/index15.html

[mikelepore]

1. Being responsible for massive famines due to inefficiency and forced industrialization.
2. Killing millions of your own people
3. Sending dissenters to gulags
4. Not letting people move



For the cause of such effects, you're looking to something implicit in the concept of communism, but it's not there. The cause is having unaccountable leaders rule "in the name of" the people, and pretending that this is rule BY the people. That has nothing to do with communism. It's the same whether it's Pinochet, Ivan the Terrible, Robespierre, Henry VIII, or a Roman Caesar. You may call it communism or any other -ism" that you wish, but the fact is, very simply: Either you have a carefully planned system of representative government and civil liberties, or you don't.

By the way, just try to find, in anything that Marx ever wrote in his whole life, the slightest suggestion that there should be one-party "elections", suppression of dissident parties and publications, religious persecution, etc. Not one word to that effect can be found.

[Dimentio]

Bah! Democracy is shit. The true democracy is the Socialist dictator by consent. True democracy is when the people remove evil government by action not meaningless vote.

It was the USA that was responsible with their "Cold War"mongering that no one else wanted. It's hard to organize workers when some capitalist pig is pointing nuclear missiles at you. The USA was also willing to prostitute itself economically to do things that Socialist nations won't. The deathblow to the Soviet Union was when the USA convinced the Wahabi theocratic monarchs of Saudi Arabia to lower their oil to prices the Soviet Union could not compete at. It was a devilish trick, but the USA is burying itself. So gloat about your empire now while you still have it. Remember that history isn't over.

Another thing is that the USA was able to infect populations with their consumerism. Much like how Christianity appealed to man's weakness to spread around the world(just like how democracy does), the USA was able to do the same. People would say, "Hey, putting socialism together is work! Why don't I just live a life of debt servitude while I sip Coca Cola and rot away my brain with idiotic television and music devoid of any culture." If you give people the easy way out, the majority will take it every time. That's why Capitalism, Christianity, and Democracy are so popular, and it's why democracy degrades itself further and further with each passing election.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tb-gI_pFog0

[Red Icepick]

Why would I play that one when this one has such awesome footage to go along with it?

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/omm3QPMqyjc&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/omm3QPMqyjc&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Oh yeah, I can't post attachments. Well it's not my loss.