Abe Lincoln and the First International.

[A.R.Amistad]

I know that Karl Marx and Frederich Engels sent several letters to President Lincoln. Marx sent a letter praising the end of slavery during the American Civil War. I have also heard rumors that Lincoln had other connections with the First International. I know Lincoln (don't worry, I'm not a Lincoln worshipper by any stretch of the imagination) actually said some pretty outspoken things against capitalism. Can anyone elaborate on this?

[Dimentio]

Did Lincoln ever reply?

[Random Precision]

Marx's letter on behalf of the International Workingman's Association to Abraham Lincoln, congratulating him on his victory in the 1860 election, with reply from Ambassador to Britain Charles Francis Adams (http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/iwma/documents/1864/lincoln-letter.htm).

Lincoln was never outspokenly against capitalism. Macpherson in The Battle Cry of Freedom has a quote somewhere where he speaks for free enterprise in very forceful terms, which pretty much debunks the "red Lincoln" canard that has been put to use by various pro-Confederate revisionists. Unfortunately I don't have the book with me, but it's excellent and everyone wanting to know about the Civil War must begin with that one.

More to the point however, Marx's comments in support of Lincoln were in the context of him completing the bourgeois task of ridding the country of slave labor and opening up the way for the full development of industrial capitalism. Here is a bit of an elaboration:


In the United States of North America, every independent movement of the workers was paralysed so long as slavery disfigured a part of the Republic. Labour cannot emancipate itself in the white skin where in the black it is branded. But out of the death of slavery a new life at once arose. The first fruit of the Civil War was the eight hours’ agitation, that ran with the seven-leagued boots of the locomotive from the Atlantic to the Pacific, from New England to California. The General Congress of labour at Baltimore (August 16th, 1866) declared:

“The first and great necessity of the present, to free the labour of this country from capitalistic slavery, is the passing of a law by which eight hours shall be the normal working-day in all States of the American Union. We are resolved to put forth all our strength until this glorious result is attained.” [161]

Karl Marx, Capital Vol. 1 Pt. 3 Ch. 10, p. 414 in the Penguin Edition

[Dave B]

For your information;

The International Workingmen's Association 1864
Address of the International Working Men's Association to Abraham Lincoln, President of the United States of America

Presented to U.S. Ambassador Charles Francis Adams
January 28, 1865

http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/iwma/documents/1864/lincoln-letter.htm (http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/iwma/documents/1864/lincoln-letter.htm)




Marx-Engels Correspondence 1865, Marx To Engels
In Manchester




Apropos. The fact that Lincoln answered us so courteously and the ‘Bourgeois Emancipation Society’ so brusquely and purely formally made The Daily News so indignant that they did not print the answer to us. However, since they saw, to their dismay, that The Times was doing so, they had to publish it later in The Express. Levy also had to eat humble pie. The difference between Lincoln’s answer to us and to the bourgeoisie has created such a sensation here that the West End ‘clubs’ are shaking their heads at it. You can understand how gratifying that has been for our people.


http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1865/letters/65_02_10.htm (http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1865/letters/65_02_10.htm)


Das capital quote at section seven;


http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/ch10.htm (http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/ch10.htm)

[A.R.Amistad]

Lincoln was never outspokenly against capitalism.

I can't remember the verbatim of the quote exactly, but it went somewhere along the lines of "capital needs labor, labor does not need capital. Therefore, labor interest should be placed before capital." Lincoln was no revolutionary, but you have to admire the fact that not everyone was willing to completely kiss capitalism's ass. I have some admiration for Lincoln as a symbol of American progressivism, but like I said, Lincoln was a elitist-racist and capitalist reformist.

Also, just so people don't get the Idea that Marx was the same level of racist that Lincoln was or that he had no empathy outside of philisophical thought, I do recall Marx stating in I believe Das Kapital that "The white worker cannot be free until he has released his black brethren from bondage" (Again, not sure if the verbatim is accurate)


Did Lincoln ever reply?

Lincoln had his ambassador send a reply that, in my opinion, was somewhat impersonal and half assed. But I do get a chuckle out of a then ambassador for the US calling Karl Marx, the father of modern communism, his "most obediant and faithful servant." Fast forward about 50 or so years and get a good laugh at that :lol:

Here is the original text, both from Marx and from the Ambassador:
http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/iwma/documents/1864/lincoln-letter.htm

[Wanted Man]

But I do get a chuckle out of a then ambassador for the US calling Karl Marx, the father of modern communism, his "most obediant and faithful servant." Fast forward about 50 or so years and get a good laugh at that :lol:

That was just a way of concluding formal letters at the time. It is considered kind of archaic nowadays.

[KC]

I can't remember the verbatim of the quote exactly, but it went somewhere along the lines of "capital needs labor, labor does not need capital. Therefore, labor interest should be placed before capital." Lincoln was no revolutionary, but you have to admire the fact that not everyone was willing to completely kiss capitalism's ass. I have some admiration for Lincoln as a symbol of American progressivism, but like I said, Lincoln was a elitist-racist and capitalist reformist.

Lincoln said many things that were contradictory. This statement is not representative of his true beliefs, as his actions have shown. And Lincoln was not a progressive in any sensible use of the word.

If you would like to get a good description of Lincoln as a person and his beliefs I highly suggest you read Richard Hofstadter's The American Political Tradition and the Men Who Made It, and particularly the chapter "Abraham Lincoln and the Self-Made Myth".

[Die Neue Zeit]

I can't remember the verbatim of the quote exactly, but it went somewhere along the lines of "capital needs labor, labor does not need capital. Therefore, labor interest should be placed before capital." Lincoln was no revolutionary, but you have to admire the fact that not everyone was willing to completely kiss capitalism's ass. I have some admiration for Lincoln as a symbol of American progressivism, but like I said, Lincoln was a elitist-racist and capitalist reformist.

In his 1861 State of the Union address:

"Labor is prior to and independent of capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration."

[Jethro Tull]

The stance on Lincoln that Marx and Engels had at the time, is, in retrospect, fallacious, with all due respect. They were possibly too occupied with the decline of the old European empires - much as how modern-day U.S. Leftists will support Iran, the P.R.C., etc.

If we analyze the Civil War, we see the evisceration of a primitive, semi-feudal plantation capitalism that refused to adapt to the changing world around it. The Old European powers supported the C.S.A. in hopes of putting a road-block in the way of the US's ascent to global dominance.

Lincoln himself passed the Homestead Act, one of the cornerstones of the US's brutal colonization of remaining Indian territories in the West.

[mikelepore]

In his 1861 State of the Union address:

"Labor is prior to and independent of capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration."

From a book I copied some more of the context surrounding Abe's comment:

http://www.deleonism.org/text/linc0001.htm

[Die Neue Zeit]

Comrade, I'm well aware of his "capital has its rights" comment afterwards. That is why I put his sound bite quote only in the preamble to the reform section of the program that I sent you. ;)

If someone says cynically that "he wasn't a commie," then I can say that I put his remark in its place for that reason. If someone says "he was a commie," then perhaps I can explain the context (unless that someone hates Lincoln already to the redneck bones).

Ditto with Keynes's "somewhat comprehensive socialization of investment" remark in his General Theory.

[Schrödinger's Cat]

It's hard to tell where Lincoln stood on most issues given that he was inclined to be a statesman foremost; there's contradicting evidence on what he felt towards African-Americans, but it's a chronological contradiction, where at the end of his life he started speaking of some very vague notions equality and not necessarily exporting blacks to an African colony (which leads historians to wonder if he progressively became 'less racist,' or if he was hiding his true beliefs to win). And yet we have plenty of literature that states he felt blacks were inferior.

As to what his thoughts were on the labor movement, all I'm aware about is that one quote and Lincoln's attack on banking interests.

[A.R.Amistad]

The Old European powers supported the C.S.A. in hopes of putting a road-block in the way of the US's ascent to global dominance.

That as well as the fact that English textile factories were doing good business with the slave south for cotton, so they had a direct capital interest as well. It is also uplifting to know, however, that most Proletarians opposed slavery and supported a Union victory in the Americas.