my brother going to afghanistan in two days.

[RED ARMY FACTION]

My brother is going to Afghanistan with the royal air force, my mum is having a Christmas dinner" tomorow, because he wont be back for christmass, should i have the meal with him or not.
My mum has said she will never forgive me if i have an arguement about him going just before he leaves, so i was thinking of missing the goodbye parade.
he has been iraq twice but never afghanistan.
What should i do ?
what would you do?

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

Apart from an upset mum what will you achieve by not eating with your brother?

[Bud Struggle]

Go have dinner and be decent about it. There is a time to argue politics and there is a time to say goodbye to a brother and respect your mother's wishes.

[RED ARMY FACTION]

if i go surely i am condoning what he is doing.
i want to see him but i know we will end up arguing about it.
not sure what to do

[Die Rote Fahne]

He's your brother. Spend time with him. Do you want him to die and you to feel like the las thing he remembers is you not showing up to the dinner?

What do you think you'll achieve? Argue politics when he gets back not when he's about to go.

[Honggweilo]

ask him if he would do some urban guerilla with the RAF in afghanistan... oh wait :rolleyes:

[Red Icepick]

Dude, what the hell is wrong with you? That's your brother, put politics aside for a minute and wish him well. By acting like a prat, you're not going to convince him that you're right about anything nor are you going to end the war. There's a time and a place, quit protesting the dinner table. That's retarded.

[RedAnarchist]

I would advise you just to be your brother's brother, without any politics or arguments. If your brother dies out there, do you want the last thing you said to him to be some angry comment about how wrong what he is doing is?

[Radical]

Comrade this would also be difficult for me. Contray to the other Comrades here, I would also prefer not to eat with him.

However this is a controversal subject and I would not think less of you in the slightest for doing so.

If he dies in Afganistan, you may never forgive yourself.

[Vendetta]

Go have dinner and be decent about it. There is a time to argue politics and there is a time to say goodbye to a brother and respect your mother's wishes.

This, more or less.

[danyboy27]

your brother is a bureaucrat with a gun, there is no need to hate him or having an argument about what he doing.

he do stuff, we all support the system by our action somehow, we do it for survival, same goes for your brother.

go, have a dinner with him, put your politics aside and do whatever it take to make this moment enjoyable for everyone.

there will be plenty of time in the future to talk to him about his job.

[Dr Mindbender]

My brother is going to Afghanistan with the royal air force, my mum is having a Christmas dinner" tomorow, because he wont be back for christmass, should i have the meal with him or not.
My mum has said she will never forgive me if i have an arguement about him going just before he leaves, so i was thinking of missing the goodbye parade.
he has been iraq twice but never afghanistan.
What should i do ?
what would you do?

I'd ring up the RAF, and tell them he's a gay BNP member to get him court marshalled.

Hey, he'll hate you for a few years but you might be saving his life.

[Muzk]

id do it for the food

[mykittyhasaboner]

If your brother is going to Afghanistan, after going to Iraq twice, then obviously you've failed to convince him of the grave error of his ways. It's not likely that you'll be able to do anything about now, except to make this choice you've been presented with. I personally don't know what I would do, because this has never been a reality for me; but I have the feeling that even though you might hate what he's doing, you should at the very least see him off.

At best, you can be a constant reminder of how his actions are totally irrational and reprehensible, depending on what kind of impression you can make on him. I would obviously let them know I vehemently disagree with their decision to fight for imperialism, but I wouldn't ruin what could possibly be your last time seeing him.

To say the least, this is a tough situation. You must do what you feel is right.

[AvanteRedGarde]

My brother is going to Afghanistan with the royal air force, my mum is having a Christmas dinner" tomorow, because he wont be back for christmass, should i have the meal with him or not.
My mum has said she will never forgive me if i have an arguement about him going just before he leaves, so i was thinking of missing the goodbye parade.
he has been iraq twice but never afghanistan.
What should i do ?
what would you do?

Accept that as someone from a First World "working" class background, your brother is simple fulfilling a logical duty of his class: mindlessly killing other people in a way that objectively maintains imperialism and FW privilege. In a real sense, your brother is living up to normal class consciousness of his parasite class.

What's your other choice, try to convince him that Afghans are his class brothers? Good luck.

[red cat]

My brother is going to Afghanistan with the royal air force, my mum is having a Christmas dinner" tomorow, because he wont be back for christmass, should i have the meal with him or not.
My mum has said she will never forgive me if i have an arguement about him going just before he leaves, so i was thinking of missing the goodbye parade.
he has been iraq twice but never afghanistan.
What should i do ?
what would you do?

I place politics above all personal relationships.

[danyboy27]

I place politics above all personal relationships.

you should go out more.

[red cat]

you should go out more.
Very funny.

[MaoTseHelen]

Family comes before ideology, be a human being. You're not condoning shit by saying bye to your bro.

[red cat]

I think that in order to develop into a revolutionary, one needs to subordinate everything else to his ideology.

[Scary Monster]

I think that in order to develop into a revolutionary, one needs to subordinate everything else to his ideology.

what are you, a communist robot? im guessing you have a shitty life if you subordinate relationships below some ideology

[red cat]

what are you, a communist robot? im guessing you have a shitty life if you subordinate relationships below some ideology

If people value their personal lives more than their politics, then there will be no revolution.

[#FF0000]

libralizm

lol

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

Of course you should have dinner with him. More than that, enjoy your time together.

[Red Icepick]

If your brother is going to Afghanistan, after going to Iraq twice, then obviously you've failed to convince him of the grave error of his ways. It's not likely that you'll be able to do anything about now, except to make this choice you've been presented with. I personally don't know what I would do, because this has never been a reality for me; but I have the feeling that even though you might hate what he's doing, you should at the very least see him off.

At best, you can be a constant reminder of how his actions are totally irrational and reprehensible, depending on what kind of impression you can make on him. I would obviously let them know I vehemently disagree with their decision to fight for imperialism, but I wouldn't ruin what could possibly be your last time seeing him.

To say the least, this is a tough situation. You must do what you feel is right.

It sounds like they're already well aware of his views. His point will be taken more seriously if he is polite and not pushy, especially at such an inappropriate time. When he gets back, then talk politics, for now be a brother.

Really though, protesting Christmas dinner? That's silly. I actually find it pretty heart-warming that his family would have a Christmas dinner for him since he won't be around.

[TC]

Break his legs.

[Areté]

If he already knows how you feel about what he does as work, then I wouldn't bring it up at all. Wishing him a safe trip and return is what I would do.

[jake williams]

I'm not saying what I'm representing here is really my whole view on the matter, or explanatory of what I myself would actually do in the situation.

What I do think we need to consider quite seriously and openly is the extent to which we don't really care about the effects of imperialism. We're just not so upset about its thousands upon thousands upon thousands of victims every year just from the particular sort of violence your brother is participating in. We're not upset about how many of us are designing, building or using highly sophisticated tools to kill people, a lot of people, not to mention destroying farms, schools, homes, hospitals etc. It doesn't really sway us much how many hundreds of Afghans are killed, if I recall correctly, every month - by people like your brother. He is your brother, after all. Christmas dinner comes before expressing distaste about massacre. It would be really impolite.

Really, we think it's more important to be kind to friends and relatives than to help stop murder. The fact that millions of people participate in it is irrelevant. It's not okay for me to go down the street and kill a neighbour just because I get a few dozen friends to help out. If that's how I choose to spend my time, no one, much less everyone, has an obligation to leave me alone about it just because to challenge me would upset me. That's idiotic.

And anyway, Western soldiers die very rarely, especially in the Air Force. He'll be fine (if that's what you call fine), he'll be back, and he'll probably keep at it.

[Red Icepick]

I'm not saying what I'm representing here is really my whole view on the matter, or explanatory of what I myself would actually do in the situation.

What I do think we need to consider quite seriously and openly is the extent to which we don't really care about the effects of imperialism. We're just not so upset about its thousands upon thousands upon thousands of victims every year just from the particular sort of violence your brother is participating in. We're not upset about how many of us are designing, building or using highly sophisticated tools to kill people, a lot of people, not to mention destroying farms, schools, homes, hospitals etc. It doesn't really sway us much how many hundreds of Afghans are killed, if I recall correctly, every month - by people like your brother. He is your brother, after all. Christmas dinner comes before expressing distaste about massacre. It would be really impolite.

Really, we think it's more important to be kind to friends and relatives than to help stop murder. The fact that millions of people participate in it is irrelevant. It's not okay for me to go down the street and kill a neighbour just because I get a few dozen friends to help out. If that's how I choose to spend my time, no one, much less everyone, has an obligation to leave me alone about it just because to challenge me would upset me. That's idiotic.

And anyway, Western soldiers die very rarely, especially in the Air Force. He'll be fine (if that's what you call fine), he'll be back, and he'll probably keep at it.

By holding Canadian citizenship and paying taxes, the blood is on your hands too. Should people get in your face about it everyday?

[9]

I'm not saying what I'm representing here is really my whole view on the matter, or explanatory of what I myself would actually do in the situation.

What I do think we need to consider quite seriously and openly is the extent to which we don't really care about the effects of imperialism. We're just not so upset about its thousands upon thousands upon thousands of victims every year just from the particular sort of violence your brother is participating in. We're not upset about how many of us are designing, building or using highly sophisticated tools to kill people, a lot of people, not to mention destroying farms, schools, homes, hospitals etc. It doesn't really sway us much how many hundreds of Afghans are killed, if I recall correctly, every month - by people like your brother. He is your brother, after all. Christmas dinner comes before expressing distaste about massacre. It would be really impolite.

Really, we think it's more important to be kind to friends and relatives than to help stop murder. The fact that millions of people participate in it is irrelevant. It's not okay for me to go down the street and kill a neighbour just because I get a few dozen friends to help out. If that's how I choose to spend my time, no one, much less everyone, has an obligation to leave me alone about it just because to challenge me would upset me. That's idiotic.

And anyway, Western soldiers die very rarely, especially in the Air Force. He'll be fine (if that's what you call fine), he'll be back, and he'll probably keep at it.

Actually, I think this is where you make a serious error. It is an error like that of the lifesylists who think that people who shop at Walmart don't really care about the effects of capitalism. So they guilt their family and friends into not shopping at Walmart, and then they feel like a hero who's really doing something to change the world. The fact is, they're not a hero, and they're not doing shit to change the world. Capitalism doesn't come crashing down because some middle class teenage environmentalists stop shopping at Walmart, imperialism doesn't come to a screeching halt because some kid skips out on his imperialist-soldier-brother's last dinner before he gets deployed. If anything, acting like an ass is only going to solidify his brother's feelings and make him less receptive to criticism when it comes at an appropriate time. Your idea basically comes down to, what I can only figure, is your assumption that the only way RAF can really show he cares about the effects of imperialism is by not having dinner with his brother.
I just think that's so petty. Imperialism doesn't end because a bunch of military families stopped having dinner with their enlisted family members. Skipping a dinner doesn't do anything for the victims of imperialism. Even if RAF doesn't act immature and skip dinner - and instead decides to engage his brother at an appropriate time in a mature fashion - bringing his brother around so that he abandons the military also doesn't do anything for the victims of imperialism. Of course, I think RAF should try to bring his brother around (though I don't know that abandoning the military is necessarily the right solution either). But I think, should he succeed, that its absurd for him to think convincing one person that imperialism is bad is somehow dealing it a deadly blow. It isn't. This is the thinking of individualists and lifestylists whose entire conception of the world and "good and bad" comes down to their own personal choice. That's not how things work. Changing one person's mind - or acting like a child when their mind remains unchanged - does not solve an institutional or systemic problem, and I tend to believe that convincing oneself otherwise is just a mechanism to appease personal guilt.

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

if i go surely i am condoning what he is doing.
i want to see him but i know we will end up arguing about it.
not sure what to do

Go eat dinnner and don't argue.

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

Accept that as someone from a First World "working" class background, your brother is simple fulfilling a logical duty of his class: mindlessly killing other people in a way that objectively maintains imperialism and FW privilege. In a real sense, your brother is living up to normal class consciousness of his parasite class.

What's your other choice, try to convince him that Afghans are his class brothers? Good luck.

Fuck off ****.

[Muzk]

just eat what the fuck of damage will it do to you? all you get is a full belly, afterwards you can go out and hand out anti-war flyers

[LeninBalls]

Well as someone who had one of their most liked cousins join the British Army, all I can say is you'll regret not bidding him farewell. Before we said bye, I expressed my views and that if he was just some random lad I'd probably wish death upon him in Afghanistan and all he said was "I know yer some communist or something and you think all these mad ideas that I'm out to opress Afghanis, but all I can tell you is I'm joining because I want adventure and to kill boredom, so don't worry about me."

Couldn't help but feel sorry for the poor chap, brainwashed by this system. I just refused to argue and wished him good luck, hoped he doesn't do any damage to the Afghanis and that he'll come back alive.

(He did, and to my delight he didn't fire a single shot)

I think your brother will be pretty upset when he's lying on the side of the road and remembering the last thing his brother said was "You fucking imperialist **** I hope you die dont join the armyktmkhmkumk"

[Conquer or Die]

If you love your brother then you'll make the best decision in this circumstance.

[Havet]

My brother is going to Afghanistan with the royal air force, my mum is having a Christmas dinner" tomorow, because he wont be back for christmass, should i have the meal with him or not.
My mum has said she will never forgive me if i have an arguement about him going just before he leaves, so i was thinking of missing the goodbye parade.
he has been iraq twice but never afghanistan.
What should i do ?
what would you do?

I would say goodbye to your brother one last time.

[jake williams]

By holding Canadian citizenship and paying taxes, the blood is on your hands too. Should people get in your face about it everyday?
Yes.


Actually, I think this is where you make a serious error. [...]
I think it would be absurd to say that this is the solution to imperialism, but it would also be ridiculous to infer that position from what I said. What I mean is that we owe at least pause, because, while war is both abstractly and materially the consequence of imperialism and capitalism, we ourselves also have some non-zero responsibility for it. At any rate, even were we not responsible at all, we owe at least pause, because like I said, there's a whole lot of suffering that we don't care much about, and that's not alright.

Further - it's known that it has an effect on recruiting when it moves from being socially respectful to join the military to it being socially uncomfortable to be in the military. It's hardly 'the solution', but it's not like it's meaningless.

Also, to the general argument that, because labour is coerced under capitalism, and because under capitalism we have no say over what happens, and surplus is in general used against the workers - sort of yeah, sort of no. More specfically, all those things are true in general, but there's a lot of "space" more concretely. It's true that as worker under capitalism we have a short list of options, one of which is poverty, and usually all of which entail both self-harm and harm to the working class in general. But the sort of harm one causes working at McDonalds, or workng at Walmart, is qualitatively different from the sort of harm one causes blowing kids up. We should react differently to people who choose to blow kids up. There should be a moral distinction.

In fact, even for a closer to home example: there was a scene in Michael Moore's Capitalism where, during a home expropriation by a bank, when challenged by the community, the repossesor argued that he was "just doing his job". Someone argued back that it's better to be homeless than to make all kinds of other people homeless. I have trouble disagreeing.

[ellipsis]

Wish him luck. A soldier friend of mine is going back to A-stan as infantry for a third tour, he got stop lossed, so against his will. I don't know you bro deal but he needs your support. if you love him you will be there for him.

[RED ARMY FACTION]

had the meal with him and we all drinking atm, i deceided to put everything aside.
thanks for the advice

[Dejavu]

I don't think you're obligated to go have dinner with him or your mum. Its even more interesting when you feel that your mum and brother will use guilt against you if you do not show up and that's what you really fear. In a way , you are sort of being psychologically bullied into this.

You should let your brother know how you feel about it and not be afraid of the consequences. You would be deceiving him if you allowed him to think you were proud of him for going off to wage war.

Personal courage is what you need.

[danyboy27]

Very funny.

i am really serious, invite someone out for a date, have a great dinner and watch a good movie.

it might give you a little bit of humanity at the end.

[red cat]

i am really serious, invite someone out for a date, have a great dinner and watch a good movie.

it might give you a little bit of humanity at the end.

I would rather remain as inhuman as I am now.

[danyboy27]

I would rather remain as inhuman as I am now.

have fun not being taken seriously beccause you act like a stalin robot then.

[Socialist Guy]

Well done for putting personal politics aside, your brother is your brother no matter what and you should never let anything get in the way because family comes first.

[red cat]

have fun not being taken seriously beccause you act like a stalin robot then.

That is an honour.

By the way, we have quite a few people here who won't ever eat out or watch movies at theatres ( I am not that strict)etc. They say that they need to win the economic rights for the working class to do all that first.

[Spawn of Stalin]

I don't have a social life and haven't since I became a Marxist-Leninist, all I have is my Comrades and my partner whom I live with, she also happens to be a big nasty Stalinist. The only relationships I have other than that is with my Mum and my Sister who no longer object to my political beliefs and have both taken interest in what I have to say. The only non-socialists I am interested in having interactions with are people who could potentially become socialists.

Wow, in retrospect, my life is really horrible.

[danyboy27]

i am sad for both of you guys.

[red cat]

I tend to befriend workers wherever I go, though. That way I have many more friends than you do, danyboy25. :)

[danyboy27]

I tend to befriend workers wherever I go, though. That way I have many more friends than you do, danyboy25. :)

you dont know how many friend i have.

[Spawn of Stalin]

you dont know how many friend i have.
Just the one, apparently.

;)

[red cat]

Just the one, apparently.

;)

That was a nice one.
:lol:

[danyboy27]

Just the one, apparently.

;)

another annoying grammar nazi

[Spawn of Stalin]

Not usually, I'm just bustin' your balls, couldn't resist.

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

I don't have a social life and haven't since I became a Marxist-Leninist.

I am not surprised.

[Red Icepick]

another annoying grammar nazi

I suppose it's too 'conformist' to punctuate, capitalize, and spell correctly?

[danyboy27]

I suppose it's too 'conformist' to punctuate, capitalize, and spell correctly?

when its done in an annoying patronizing way, yes.

a polite PM would have done the job.

i will call every assole who will patronize me on my ponctuation in public a grammar nazi.

beccause their main goal is not to correct my ponctuation but to ridicule me.

[Spawn of Stalin]

I am not surprised.
Thank you Comrade Joe for this useful post.

[Havet]

when its done in an annoying patronizing way, yes.

a polite PM would have done the job.

i will call every assole who will patronize me on my ponctuation in public a grammar nazi.

beccause their main goal is not to correct my ponctuation but to ridicule me.


You mean like this?

http://basszje.vrijwazig.org/files/2009/04/grammar-nazi.jpg

[danyboy27]

You mean like this?

http://basszje.vrijwazig.org/files/2009/04/grammar-nazi.jpg

yup

[Red Icepick]

when its done in an annoying patronizing way, yes.

a polite PM would have done the job.

i will call every assole who will patronize me on my ponctuation in public a grammar nazi.

beccause their main goal is not to correct my ponctuation but to ridicule me.

Why don't you just make an effort to propertly spell and punctuate? Honestly, how hard is it to hold down shift and press a letter when necessary? Being from Quebec, it's likely that you're bilingual and English is your second language, so spelling and grammar mistakes can be excused. Capitalization is the same either way though, and it's not hard. Anyone who tries to do it isn't going to fail.

[Scary Monster]

If people value their personal lives more than their politics, then there will be no revolution.

i wonder just what kind of revolution youre fighting, if it involves not holding humanity or people who deeply care about you in higher regard :). plus its stupidly dogmatic if someone is just gonna stop talking to or even disown their own sibling over this, when they have a chance of being killed in war very soon.

[red cat]

i wonder just what kind of revolution youre fighting, if it involves not holding humanity or people who deeply care about you in higher regard :). plus its stupidly dogmatic if someone is just gonna stop talking to or even disown their own sibling over this, when they have a chance of being killed in war very soon.


The choice is personal of course. But here the person concerned is in violent contradiction with the masses. That is why I would choose to act the other way.

[LOLseph Stalin]

If people value their personal lives more than their politics, then there will be no revolution.

I guess there won't be a revolution from me then. :rolleyes: Politics always comes second in my life. I prefer to live as a human being rather than some Commie-bot.

[Il Medico]

I guess there won't be a revolution from me then. :rolleyes: Politics always comes second in my life. I prefer to live as a human being rather than some Commie-bot.
http://media.giantbomb.com/uploads/0/1099/830240-andy_5comm_super.png
Dogma before people. Beep...Beep!

[red cat]

Revolution is for the people.

[Bud Struggle]

Revolution is for the people.

But the work of Communists isn't to throw bombs to hurt workers...it isn't alienate people who might be sitting on the fence. The job of a Communist in today's world is to be MORE human than the Capitalists. Not less human. It's to care for people's feeling, to understand their problems and then to provide a solution.

And the solution ISN'T to start a Revolution.

The solution is to change the consciousness of the working class by showing them EXACTLY WHO THEY ARE in realtionship to the world so that they, the working class, can start the Revolution.

The job of a Communist in today's world isn't to piss off some poor old lady who's kids going off to fight in some imperialist war--it's to win over the heart of that little old lady so her kid won't have to go fight in some imperialist war.

[red cat]

Do you realize that while we discuss our moral duties here, civilians in Afghanistan are being murdered by foreign troops?

Class politics places before us very clearly who are the class-enemies. It includes members of the working class serving the armed forces as well. No place for family bondage.

[Bud Struggle]

Do you realize that while we discuss our moral duties here, civilians in Afghanistan are being murdered by foreign troops?

Class politics places before us very clearly who are the class-enemies. It includes members of the working class serving the armed forces as well. No place for family bondage.

Yea I understand that. What I am suggesting is what I think the best way to actually SOLVE the proble.

Remember: this is COMMUNISM--it's not out personal fight to solve the woes of mankind. I think the question is, how can we best ALL WORK TOGETHER to bring about a better world. When we start operating independantly of the working class it is we who become the alienators.

There can never be Communism without the workers and right now the workers are on the side of the Capitalists. We need to change their hearts and beliefs, not by independantly fighting little wars with little people who won't have a clue what you're talking about. It's about engaging the working community as a whole and giving them a new consciousness of life.

Really and truly--Communism isn't about what YOU want or what makes YOU feel good. It's about RAF's mother.

[red cat]

This contradiction is violent. That is what makes the difference. Of course it would have been best to talk things out and stop the soldier from joining the war at the first place. But that does not mean that one should keep explaining things while the other person commits acts of class violence one after the other. Every foreign soldier fighting in Afghanistan stands liable for the thousands of murders there, and their execution by resistance forces is completely justified. Don't forget that.

When you embrace proletarian politics, you have to break with everything else if required.

[Bud Struggle]

This contradiction is violent. That is what makes the difference. Of course it would have been best to talk things out and stop the soldier from joining the war at the first place. But that does not mean that one should keep explaining things while the other person commits acts of class violence one after the other. Every foreign soldier fighting in Afghanistan stands liable for the thousands of murders there, and their execution by resistance forces is completely justified. Don't forget that.

When you embrace proletarian politics, you have to break with everything else if required.

No, you have to win. Communism has failed enough, don't you think? When you break with everything and no one else does you become a fruitcake. You have to change minds--it's not about YOUR consciousness. It's about the Communist consciousness and thet entails the gradual winning of the working class and the opening of their minds.

The "slap 'um in the face with a dead fish" school of Communsim ended with the colapse and fall of whatever that was that considered itself communism.

Let's try another plan, please?

[danyboy27]

. You have to change minds--it's not about YOUR consciousness. It's about the Communist consciousness and thet entails the gradual winning of the working class and the opening of their minds.


anyone who havnt already gave a good rep to Bud for that should do it right now.

[manic expression]

Let's try another plan, please?

The plan isn't the problem here. Let me ask you a question: when basketball players take jumpshots, do they make every attempt? When baseball players go to bat, do they get to base every time? However, no one would try to tell basketball players that jumpshots aren't the most effective way of taking shots from outside the key, and no one would tell baseball players to fundamentally change the way they swing a bat.

The point is that oftentimes, the best techniques aren't always 100% successful. Communism (that is, Marxism-Leninism) is a solid plan, and its defeats prove this almost as much as its victories; the question whether we can apply it the right way. That being said, I agree that communists must win more and more workers to our side, and that means knowing what workers want, getting them to want more and outlining the path forward. I just don't think we should throw the baby out with the bathwater.

[Bud Struggle]

The plan isn't the problem here. Let me ask you a question: when basketball players take jumpshots, do they make every attempt? When baseball players go to bat, do they get to base every time? However, no one would try to tell basketball players that jumpshots aren't the most effective way of taking shots from outside the key, and no one would tell baseball players to fundamentally change the way they swing a bat. Seventy years of jumpshots. Plenty of chances to turn Communism into what it should be.


The point is that oftentimes, the best techniques aren't always 100% successful. Communism (that is, Marxism-Leninism) is a solid plan, and its defeats prove this almost as much as its victories; the question whether we can apply it the right way. That being said, I agree that communists must win more and more workers to our side, and that means knowing what workers want, getting them to want more and outlining the path forward. I just don't think we should throw the baby out with the bathwater.

The Societ Union, Communist China, North Korea, Cambodia...etc. Good idea (Communism) totally failed plan to implement it.

Time to try something differnent.

[red cat]

Seventy years of jumpshots. Plenty of chances to turn Communism into what it should be.



The Societ Union, Communist China, North Korea, Cambodia...etc. Good idea (Communism) totally failed plan to implement it.

Time to try something differnent.

Communism and socialism radically differ from all the preceding types of societies due to the vast majority of the population seizing power. As it happens with all kinds of new systems, there will be failures. But each time, the proletariat learns from its past mistakes.

The main reason why we failed to protect the past revolutions is purely due to military reasons. The revisionists infiltrating the party and conducting assassinations and barbaric repression on the masses is due to our failure to see how to continue our war against the bourgeoisie.

Also, each time the bourgeois tactics have been to announce the social contradictions as "peaceful", while they themselves continued their violent crimes against the proletariat. We respond to this as declaring every aspect of class contradiction between the bourgeoisie and the proletariat to be violent, even if it expresses itself within our relatives, friends and comrades.

[Sean]

Of course you should have a meal with him.

[Jazzratt]

Revolution is for the people.

Not when it demands first and formost that those involved give up a lot of what makes them people (interpersonal relationships and so on). Then it becomes revolution for its own sake and has to adopt rhetoric like this to cover for the fact it just exists as a way for the soi dissant "revolutionary" class can consolidate its own power and simply usher in exactly the same oppression under new bosses.


Seventy years of jumpshots. Plenty of chances to turn Communism into what it should be.Capitalism took 500 years in the building. That we're even hitting the rim at 70 years is pretty fucking impressive.

[red cat]

Not when it demands first and formost that those involved give up a lot of what makes them people (interpersonal relationships and so on). Then it becomes revolution for its own sake and has to adopt rhetoric like this to cover for the fact it just exists as a way for the soi dissant "revolutionary" class can consolidate its own power and simply usher in exactly the same oppression under new bosses.


Every member of the proletariat puts his class-interests ahead of his personal ones during the revolution.

[Bud Struggle]

Every member of the proletariat puts his class-interests ahead of his personal ones during the revolution.

I wonder if that is something that would really happen. It would be best if the class interests of people could be presented so that they coincide with the personal interests of workers.

The Capitalists do that trick quite well selling pariotism, self determination, and that lucky chance to work hard and make a million dollars. Comsumerism is one of the best tools that Capitalism has--you fight for Capitalism all your life and you are rewarded with the opportunity to buy a large screen TV.

[Jazzratt]

Every member of the proletariat puts his class-interests ahead of his personal ones during the revolution.

Oh for fuck's sake. Boilerplate slogans like this are exactly why no one takes maoists seriously. We are not in a revolutionary period and we never will be if we behave like automata for whom "the revolution" is the be all and end all. Class actions, revolution in general, doesn't mean shit if workers have to subordinate themselves to the system. You can claim class interest all you want and it may be that some of your policies are in the economic interests of some sections of the working class, but unless you pay attention also to the individual aims and circumstances of the proleteriat all you've got is so much guff.

You go down the pub now or at any time and tell the workers there that they have to stop associating with some of their mates over pissy disagreements in politics. I fucking dare you. You tell that to the people actually involved in the struggle, rather than cheering from the sidelines and offering stupid slogans. You sound fucking ridiculous and incredibly alienated from the working class as a whole.

[red cat]

Oh for fuck's sake. Boilerplate slogans like this are exactly why no one takes maoists seriously.

Right. Just the workers and peasants do.;)




We are not in a revolutionary period and we never will be if we behave like automata for whom "the revolution" is the be all and end all. Class actions, revolution in general, doesn't mean shit if workers have to subordinate themselves to the system. You can claim class interest all you want and it may be that some of your policies are in the economic interests of some sections of the working class, but unless you pay attention also to the individual aims and circumstances of the proleteriat all you've got is so much guff.


You have no idea of what is going on. We are very much in a revolutionary period. And tell me if people don't subordinate their personal interests to class interests, how come so many people are martyring themselves in the ongoing revolutions?



You go down the pub now or at any time and tell the workers there that they have to stop associating with some of their mates over pissy disagreements in politics. I fucking dare you. You tell that to the people actually involved in the struggle, rather than cheering from the sidelines and offering stupid slogans. You sound fucking ridiculous and incredibly alienated from the working class as a whole.

Here in the third world we teach the workers not to drink at the first place.

[Matty_UK]

Every member of the proletariat puts his class-interests ahead of his personal ones during the revolution.

We're not in a revolution right now.

And even so, at the risk of sounding hippy-ish, personal relations are important for revolution, and are even subversive. I think simply by remaining close friends to the people you've grown up with and who trust you and respect your opinions, you're doing a lot more for raising class consciousness than being part of a tiny sect handing out leaflets that to most people seem far out. I'm pretty sure I've won over more people to understanding that the recession is an unavoidable part of capitalism down the pub with my mates than I ever would by handing out leaflets in the city centre.

One of the strengths of modern capitalism in the west is that it destroys communities and atomises the working class. Keep close to your friends and family, and ensure they keep close to each other, and you do a bit to help your class be stronger as a whole. Sorry if that sounds cheesy, but nothing can be more subversive than clinging on to what is human in a society of ever more acute alienation.

[manic expression]

Seventy years of jumpshots. Plenty of chances to turn Communism into what it should be.

We have a pretty good shooting/batting average, especially when you look at the odds against us. We're getting double-teamed every time we get the ball and yet we still manage to sink enough shots to keep us in the game.


The Societ Union, Communist China, North Korea, Cambodia...etc. Good idea (Communism) totally failed plan to implement it.The Soviet Union: compare life in 1922 to life in 1952...incredible improvements in every aspect of society. Some of the most dramatic periods of economic growth in human history, the defeat of Nazism, progress in civil rights for many different groups, access to the arts for the public at large, etc., etc. I could go on. The point is the Soviet Union was a success and everyone who's seriously studied the subject from a progressive point of view will tell you that.

Oh, and for a comparison, every aspect of life has gotten worse for the former Soviet Union since the fall of the USSR.

Cuba: the most democratic society on the face of the earth, the best healthcare system in the Americas, practically zero homelessness or illiteracy, doctors sent to impoverished communities around the word, the defeat of apartheid, the liberation of women and LGBTs, access to the arts is ridiculously good, consistently ranked one of the best education systems of the developing world (and the world in general), massive steps for racial equality, etc., etc.

Some clutch three pointers right there, and we got fouled on both shots by reactionaries. AND-1!


Time to try something differnent.I agree, it's time to apply those successes to entirety of humanity. Even if we miss that shot this time around, we'll get nothing but net sooner or later, and when we do, it'll be a game-winning buzzer-beater. From downtown!

[Scary Monster]

We're not in a revolution right now.

And even so, at the risk of sounding hippy-ish, personal relations are important for revolution, and are even subversive. I think simply by remaining close friends to the people you've grown up with and who trust you and respect your opinions, you're doing a lot more for raising class consciousness than being part of a tiny sect handing out leaflets that to most people seem far out. I'm pretty sure I've won over more people to understanding that the recession is an unavoidable part of capitalism down the pub with my mates than I ever would by handing out leaflets in the city centre.

One of the strengths of modern capitalism in the west is that it destroys communities and atomises the working class. Keep close to your friends and family, and ensure they keep close to each other, and you do a bit to help your class be stronger as a whole. Sorry if that sounds cheesy, but nothing can be more subversive than clinging on to what is human in a society of ever more acute alienation.

shit that wasnt cheesy at all man! thats what i was tryin to say earlier but you put it very eloquently id say

[Bud Struggle]

We have a pretty good shooting/batting average, especially when you look at the odds against us. We're getting double-teamed every time we get the ball and yet we still manage to sink enough shots to keep us in the game.[quote] Fair evaluation--but unfortunately for Communism life isn't fair--so we have to trod on.

[quote]The Soviet Union: compare life in 1922 to life in 1952...incredible improvements in every aspect of society. Some of the most dramatic periods of economic growth in human history, the defeat of Nazism, progress in civil rights for many different groups, access to the arts for the public at large, etc., etc. I could go on. The point is the Soviet Union was a success and everyone who's seriously studied the subject from a progressive point of view will tell you that. Granted the SU was better than the Tsar--but what isn't? I think they would have done better under a Western style democracy--certainly the countries in Western Europe faired better. And my problem with the SU is that it was for it's entire existance EXACTLY the same as it was under the Tsar--a totalitarian dictatorship. And there was fear.


Oh, and for a comparison, every aspect of life has gotten worse for the former Soviet Union since the fall of the USSR. There were the Feudal Tsars, the Communist Tsars and now the quasi-Capitalist Tsars.


Cuba: the most democratic society on the face of the earth, the best healthcare system in the Americas, practically zero homelessness or illiteracy, doctors sent to impoverished communities around the word, the defeat of apartheid, the liberation of women and LGBTs, access to the arts is ridiculously good, consistently ranked one of the best education systems of the developing world (and the world in general), massive steps for racial equality, etc., etc. I think your singing of the praises of Cuba are a little over the top. Indeed, I'm sure things are better than they were under Battista, but the country is poor--all of the people are poor and there is some division of wealth between the average Cuban and the "government officials." The LGBT community is gaining accecptance just recently--certainly Fidel was no friend of gays, but better late than never--they are definitely following Capitalist Democracies there, though. Now I'll grant you the USA has been less than kind--but there is definitely state oppression of dissidents, no Internet access to the rest of the world and little freedom of speech. And the Castroesque Nepotism is just grotesque. And again--there is fear.


Some clutch three pointers right there, and we got fouled on both shots by reactionaries. AND-1! I agree, Capitalism doesn't play fair--but Communists should.

FYI: I've been to the USSR and Eastern Europe (my parents were Polish ex-pats) and Cuba--never been to Russia, so I can't comment. Anyway--I'd like to see something better come out of Communism than just more of "that."

[manic expression]

Fair evaluation--but unfortunately for Communism life isn't fair--so we have to trod on.

We have to do what we can, which means deepening our understanding of Marxism, being ready for the decisive moment and always propagating our views among the workers, as workers and allies of workers. That's the technique I'm talking about, and it does work.


Granted the SU was better than the Tsar--but what isn't? I think they would have done better under a Western style democracy--certainly the countries in Western Europe faired better. And my problem with the SU is that it was for it's entire existance EXACTLY the same as it was under the Tsar--a totalitarian dictatorship. And there was fear.

They have a "Western style democracy" now, and life got worse. The fall of the USSR and its aftermath was one of the greatest vindications of the October Revolution that anyone could ever imagine. Every aspect of life got worse for the majority of Soviet citizens, I'm not even exaggerating that. The stats on homelessness, prostitution, life expectancy, general health, women's rights (including shockingly fatal domestic violence stats), race relations, access to the arts and more all back me up on this.


There were the Feudal Tsars, the Communist Tsars and now the quasi-Capitalist Tsars.

Don't oversimplify things. You might as well call George Bush the new King George, it makes no sense given the social relations involved.


I think your singing of the praises of Cuba are a little over the top. Indeed, I'm sure things are better than they were under Battista, but the country is poor--all of the people are poor and there is some division of wealth between the average Cuban and the "government officials." The LGBT community is gaining accecptance just recently--certainly Fidel was no friend of gays, but better late than never--they are definitely following Capitalist Democracies there, though. Now I'll grant you the USA has been less than kind--but there is definitely state oppression of dissidents, no Internet access to the rest of the world and little freedom of speech. And the Castroesque Nepotism is just grotesque. And again--there is fear.

It's not over the top at all. The people are not poor, living standards for the masses are far and away the best in Latin America (which is the most fair and reasonable comparison in terms of historical development, IMO). Socialism is not about making everyone equal, I don't know who told you that because it's just not true; Marx's writings back me up on this. The LGBT community is gaining full equality now, but they weren't treated so badly before; the AIDS pandemic did not decimate the Cuban LGBT community as it did in the capitalist world (when Reagan officials, IIRC, actually said that gays deserved to die for being immoral). Further, Cuba is far ahead of most bourgeois countries, as it is the only country on the face of the earth to offer free sex changes to transgender citizens, and it has recognized gay unions as fully equal to heterosexual unions (I'm pretty sure on that, since they don't recognize religious marriage at all).

Internet access is limited because of resources, not because of ideology. The Cuban government has been working overtime to provide schools and places of education with internet first, and moving to private access beyond that (things are improving in this regard, everyone agrees on that). Lastly, dissidents have complete freedom of speech, they just don't have the freedom to accept funds from US-based terrorist groups via the US government (which is documented to be true in the case of the 70-so dissidents arrested).

Castro nepotism isn't what made Raul the leader of Cuba. The Bush administration told Cuba not to elect Raul, so Cuba did it in part to tell Bush to go f*ck himself. Raul has also been a principled revolutionary leader from day one who was very qualified for the job. If you have any criticisms of Raul outside of his last name, it would help to post them.

Remember, all of these claims are verifiable from independent sources.


I agree, Capitalism doesn't play fair--but Communists should.

Agreed, because it helps us in the long run, and shows that workers are more progressive than capitalists.


FYI: I've been to the USSR and Eastern Europe (my parents were Polish ex-pats) and Cuba--never been to Russia, so I can't comment. Anyway--I'd like to see something better come out of Communism than just more of "that."

I'm presently trying to get to Belarus partially to get a feel for Soviet institutions, and going to Cuba is a dream for me. However, much of my views on Cuba are from the impressions I've gotten from people who've lived there, both socialists and non-socialists alike (quick somewhat-related story: I was in NYC for a PSL petition campaign last summer, and I came across someone from Cuba; I first thought "oh, no, an anti-Castro exile"...but when he saw my pamphlets which were blatantly socialist, he smiled and gave a big thumbs-up, and explained he was visiting for a few months before going back to Cuba; I gave him our info, then we shook hands and went our ways). However, you can't look at Cuba or the USSR and say everything that exists is the result of socialism. For example, did the illegal embargo against Cuba ever cross your mind when you saw shortages on the island? Did you ever consider that most of the population had no access to workable toilets of any form when the revolution happened? We can't blame communism for that, can we?

Like I said, we keep getting fouled on our shots, and we still drop dimes. Not bad at all, if you ask me.

[SocialPhilosophy]

if i go surely i am condoning what he is doing.
i want to see him but i know we will end up arguing about it.
not sure what to do


Having been there before, i can tell you that what is really important, is that he is your brother, and if he is going to make it home alive, he needs all the support he can get.

[Sarah Palin]

I think that in order to develop into a revolutionary, one needs to subordinate everything else to his ideology.

Yeah! Let's become robots! Great idea. Really. I commend you. That's some clear thinking right there. Forget about your family, the people who made you who you are. Get the fuck out.
OP, you should be ashamed of yourself for even thinking of not going to say goodbye to your brother, whom you might never see again.
You might not agree with what he's doing, but just imagine that he dies, and your last memory of him is an argument.

[SocialPhilosophy]

Yeah! Let's become robots! Great idea. Really. I commend you. That's some clear thinking right there. Forget about your family, the people who made you who you are. Get the fuck out.
OP, you should be ashamed of yourself for even thinking of not going to say goodbye to your brother, whom you might never see again.
You might not agree with what he's doing, but just imagine that he dies, and your last memory of him is an argument.


If I wasn't Restricted I'd thank you for your post.

:thumbup1:

[danyboy27]

I think that in order to develop into a revolutionary, one needs to subordinate everything else to his ideology.

you sound like a nazi.

[Richard Nixon]

Congratulate him, play "God Save The Queen". :)

But seriously, you're being ideological fundamentalists if you have to expound your ideology EVERY SINGLE TIME TO EVERYONE.

[PRC-UTE]

My brother is going to Afghanistan with the royal air force, my mum is having a Christmas dinner" tomorow, because he wont be back for christmass, should i have the meal with him or not.
My mum has said she will never forgive me if i have an arguement about him going just before he leaves, so i was thinking of missing the goodbye parade.
he has been iraq twice but never afghanistan.
What should i do ?
what would you do?

order him a pizza. and let the RIRA know.

[red cat]

We're not in a revolution right now.

Even if we assume that we are not, is it morally justified not to vehemently oppose someone who is going to commit murders in the third world for the sake of imperialism?



And even so, at the risk of sounding hippy-ish, personal relations are important for revolution, and are even subversive. I think simply by remaining close friends to the people you've grown up with and who trust you and respect your opinions, you're doing a lot more for raising class consciousness than being part of a tiny sect handing out leaflets that to most people seem far out. I'm pretty sure I've won over more people to understanding that the recession is an unavoidable part of capitalism down the pub with my mates than I ever would by handing out leaflets in the city centre.


You definitely did a very good job there. :thumbup1:
But all types of class contradictions cannot be handled the same way.



One of the strengths of modern capitalism in the west is that it destroys communities and atomises the working class. Keep close to your friends and family, and ensure they keep close to each other, and you do a bit to help your class be stronger as a whole. Sorry if that sounds cheesy, but nothing can be more subversive than clinging on to what is human in a society of ever more acute alienation.

Let us see it this way; we, the oppressed masses of the third world often have to fight against first world soldiers because they invade our countries or collaborate with our national armies in repressing us. If you do not oppose everyone directly associated with the imperialist side of the war, then not only are you insulting our struggle for liberation and the sacrifice of our countless martyrs, but also proving that you are a revolutionary just in words and would rather cling to your personal relationships rather than expressing solidarity to the world-proletariat.

[danyboy27]

now that the OP took its decision, i dont think he need more advice anymore.

we could close the thread now and avoid further bullshit from ww2 red army commisar copycat.

[red cat]

I am honoured. :lol:

[danyboy27]

I am honoured. :lol:

good, we both benefit from it.

[red cat]

good, we both benefit from it.

Agreed.

[Matty_UK]

Let us see it this way; we, the oppressed masses of the third world often have to fight against first world soldiers because they invade our countries or collaborate with our national armies in repressing us. If you do not oppose everyone directly associated with the imperialist side of the war, then not only are you insulting our struggle for liberation and the sacrifice of our countless martyrs, but also proving that you are a revolutionary just in words and would rather cling to your personal relationships rather than expressing solidarity to the world-proletariat.

Where are you from btw?

Making it clear you disapprove of their actions and explaining to them why is a more effective way of opposing them than treating them like dirt, which is only counter-productive as it makes people disdainful of your views.

I would agree that imperialist needs to be defeated militarily before a revolution takes place in the west, but winning over the soldiers is a prerequisite also and you have to be very tentative about your position to not make them hate socialists.

[red cat]

Making it clear you disapprove of their actions and explaining to them why is a more effective way of opposing them than treating them like dirt, which is only counter-productive as it makes people disdainful of your views.

I agree. But if you see it from the point of view of a third world(may be an Afghan) communist, it's like this; a soldier is looting raping and murdering his compatriots and you are "explaining" things to him each time he is going home. This just isn't acceptable.

[Matty_UK]

I understand that, but really there isn't much else you can do if you live in an imperialist nation. Short of attacking military installations which is suicide unless there's actually a revolution underway.

[red cat]

I understand that, but really there isn't much else you can do if you live in an imperialist nation. Short of attacking military installations which is suicide unless there's actually a revolution underway.

At least boycott them socially. Let them know that their friends and relatives hate them for what they are doing. That way they will learn. Because otherwise, the death of so many innocents has no appeal to them. The way that several American marines referred to the Iraqis( it was when the pics came out), it was clear that they had been trained into identifying them with subhuman beasts.

[Bud Struggle]

At least boycott them socially. Let them know that their friends and relatives hate them for what they are doing. That way they will learn.

I understand what you are saying--I just don't know if that is the best thing for the Communist movement. The thing is that most of the soldier's friends and relatives DO appove of what the guy is doing. Even if they don't actually support the war--they support the guy and the guy's decision.

One of the better things about Capitalist Democracy is that for the most part it's judgement free--if you want to be a Baptist or a Jew or an Athiest of a Tory or a Democrat or a whatever, it never becomes part of one's actualy realtion with the person.

It works to a disadvantage in situations like this, but on the flip side it works to the Communist's advantage because people like you aren't shunned because or your beliefs. It's a two edged sword, once you begin to polarize people politically you can also find yourself on the cutting edge of the sword.

[red cat]

It works to a disadvantage in situations like this, but on the flip side it works to the Communist's advantage because people like you aren't shunned because or your beliefs.


In all capitalist countries, and specially in the US, communists are portrayed as bloodthirsty villains waiting to enslave free people. This propaganda starts right from school level. That is why when a communist tries to convince someone in these countries, he gets all sorts of annoying and ridiculous replies. This ensures that communists can never propagandize enough in spite of the bourgeois freedom of expression. If communists manage to reach a position to challenge the state, then they will be immediately outlawed.

[danyboy27]

At least boycott them socially. Let them know that their friends and relatives hate them for what they are doing. That way they will learn. Because otherwise, the death of so many innocents has no appeal to them. The way that several American marines referred to the Iraqis( it was when the pics came out), it was clear that they had been trained into identifying them with subhuman beasts.

liferstylism is for noobs.

its been proven over and over that marginalising yourself will never work out.

[Robert]

In all capitalist countries, and specially in the US, communists are portrayed as bloodthirsty villains waiting to enslave free people.

You'd better find some way to curb and marginalise your Maoist, Stalinist, and "Dear Little Bastard-ist" comrades, or this "false" perception will never, ever change.

[red cat]

You'd better find some way to curb and marginalise your Maoist, Stalinist, and "Dear Little Bastard-ist" comrades, or this "false" perception will never, ever change.

No wonder you are restricted.

[danyboy27]

No wonder you are restricted.

and this cocky attitude might just lead you to the OI one day!

[red cat]

and this cocky attitude might just lead you to the OI one day!
May be it will, but I will never tolerate that sort of mockery of my comrades or the kind of words that were used to describe them.

[Bud Struggle]

May be it will, but I will never tolerate that sort of mockery of my comrades or the kind of words that were used to describe them.

If Communism is to win any ground I think it's going to be necessary to "loose" some Comrades that aren't ideologically easily acceptable to the general masses.

It's not like you don't have a good example of something like that in Stalin who disposed of almost all the Old Bolshviks that brought Communism to power in the Soviet Union.

It's for the good of Communism--I'm sure they'll understand.

[red cat]

If Communism is to win any ground I think it's going to be necessary to "loose" some Comrades that aren't ideologically easily acceptable to the general masses.

Doesn't quite seem so from the situation in India or the Philippines or certain other countries.



It's not like you don't have a good example of something like that in Stalin who disposed of almost all the Old Bolshviks that brought Communism to power in the Soviet Union.

This issue has been addressed a number of times in other threads and we have made our stand clear.



It's for the good of Communism--I'm sure they'll understand.

Good for pushing communism a century or two into the future may be.

[danyboy27]

i know you hate the first world red cat, but please take in consideration that we didnt choose that life, and that we would be completly mad to put ourselves in the same dire condition that you are suffering just to send a message.

[red cat]

i know you hate the first world red cat, but please take in consideration that we didnt choose that life, and that we would be completly mad to put ourselves in the same dire condition that you are suffering just to send a message.

But you can choose to be a first-world proletarian and act according to your internationalist spirit !

P.S. And we hate the first world bourgeoisie, not proletariat

[danyboy27]

But you can choose to be a first-world proletarian and act according to your internationalist spirit !

P.S. And we hate the first world bourgeoisie, not proletariat

i am already that by default, i just dont want to build my life around politics or religions, there are far more important thing to deal with right now.

i dont see the point of alienating the world i live with just to make it fit my political ideal.

you do that, its fine, really, if it work, good for you.

be an extremist and fallow other extremist, but dont expect the other proletarian to take you seriously or the bourgeois who might be on your side one day, for that matter.

[red cat]

i am already that by default, i just dont want to build my life around politics or religions, there are far more important thing to deal with right now.

i dont see the point of alienating the world i live with just to make it fit my political ideal.

you do that, its fine, really, if it work, good for you.

be an extremist and fallow other extremist, but dont expect the other proletarian to take you seriously or the bourgeois who might be on your side one day, for that matter.

You will, of course, do what you think is right. I was just trying to explain my position through my infinitesimal knowledge of Marxism. I think that vast majority of the working class do take us seriously. Yes, if I don't remain loyal to the proletariat(I don't guarantee that I will, I can't see the future and I may succumb to the system), the bourgeoisie will of course be on my side.

I am really tired of this debate. I won't post in this thread any further. Good for me, good for everyone, good for the thread.

[danyboy27]

You will, of course, do what you think is right. I was just trying to explain my position through my infinitesimal knowledge of Marxism. I think that vast majority of the working class do take us seriously. Yes, if I don't remain loyal to the proletariat(I don't guarantee that I will, I can't see the future and I may succumb to the system), the bourgeoisie will of course be on my side.

I am really tired of this debate. I won't post in this thread any further. Good for me, good for everyone, good for the thread.

agreed

[ls]

Some of the responses in this thread are anti-worker, purely hateful and purely moronic.

YOU SHOULD KILL HIM111

You should (have, as I suppose as he's probs gone now) attempted to do your best to talk him out of going, to get him to avoid the military operation by any means possible, what ulster socialist said is a frankly brilliant suggestion.

[Patchd]

This is a bad place to get advice for this kind of thing. This needs to be your decision although that's not to say you shouldn't listen to advice. You know your brother and your relationship with him better than anyone else on this board does, so you would be in a better position to make the decision.

I wouldn't know what I would do, I have no siblings so don't know what it would be like to have a close family member in the Armed forces.

[Pawn Power]

http://www.ivaw.org/