I want the bnp to win... But i dont spport them nazi bastards

[RED ARMY FACTION]

I want the BNP to win, because when they do, the conditions for revolution will come about.
do you agree with my opinion

[BurnTheOliveTree]

No, it doesn't work like that.

Fascists getting into power means workers movements get smashed and set back, and the leaders get killed. In Germany and Italy before Hitler and Mussolini, there were massive socialist movements that were subsequently destroyed by the state.

-Alex

[Demogorgon]

I imagine this will be the post that gets you banned, but for what it's worth...

That same stupid view was articulated by some German Communists in 1932. Look how that fantastic plan worked out.

[Trosso]

BNP speaks a lot of truth tbh.

[#FF0000]

RAF you're fucking stupid.

[Durruti's Ghost]

I want the BNP to win, because when they do, the conditions for revolution will come about.


BNP speaks a lot of truth tbh.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_mrNAj3N_TZI/Sku6N-TukcI/AAAAAAAAABw/3xdEmYmoNsk/s400/double-facepalm.jpg

[RED ARMY FACTION]

why.
the BNP would try and deport blacks asians jews they would be oppressive to gays and lesbians, they would take away the little freedoms we had under capitalism.
This would rallyu every red against them, maybe even get us to stop the petty sectarianism we have for each other, trotskyites Marxist Leninists maoists anarchists, we would stop bullshiting and would i am sure unite against the BNP government.
We would have suppoirt of the oppressed and i am sure of the white straight middle class people who the BNP want to dominate britain, some would want us to overthow them too.
Once the people realized they had voted facsists into power they would look to the power that was resisting them, they would look to us.

Or maybe im just fucking stupid for asking a question

[RED ARMY FACTION]

BTW the guy who said the BNP speak the truth should be fucking banned straight away, thats fucking pathetic

[Durruti's Ghost]

why.
the BNP would try and deport blacks asians jews they would be oppressive to gays and lesbians, they would take away the little freedoms we had under capitalism.
This would rallyu every red against them, maybe even get us to stop the petty sectarianism we have for each other, trotskyites Marxist Leninists maoists anarchists, we would stop bullshiting and would i am sure unite against the BNP government.
We would have suppoirt of the oppressed and i am sure of the white straight middle class people who the BNP want to dominate britain, some would want us to overthow them too.
Once the people realized they had voted facsists into power they would look to the power that was resisting them, they would look to us.



It would be nice if this happened. However, historically, the workers have not united and revolted when conditions have gotten worse; they've turned on each other, seeking only to survive. Why can one person with a gun effectively control thirty people? Because no one wants to be the first one to get shot. It is only when the gunman turns his back--when, to expand on the metaphor, the oppressive hand of the capitalist state begins to lift a little--that the workers gain the confidence needed to rise up and overthrow it once and for all.

[RED ARMY FACTION]

maybe i am uneducated in theory but i am inclined to disagree, i am sure the people of britain would rise, especially groups like the INLA in northern ireland creating a mass of support for the guerrilla fighters, in germany the raf had over 6 million symperthisers, if you do not beleive me look it up, well imagine a fascist government of nazi persuasion, the people will definately rise up, others will fight for the bnp, sparking civil war and pushing the people into two camps socialist fascist, at that point we would wether the mods on revleft are as revolutionary as they proclaim.

[Durruti's Ghost]

i am sure the people of britain would rise, especially groups like the INLA in northern ireland creating a mass of support for the guerrilla fighters, in germany the raf had over 6 million symperthisers, if you do not beleive me look it up, well imagine a fascist government of nazi persuasion, the people will definately rise up, others will fight for the bnp, sparking civil war and pushing the people into two camps socialist fascist

Can you name one instance in which the Left has successfully defeated a fascist reaction?

[RED ARMY FACTION]

this instance of british revolution would be unique
no?

[Bud Struggle]

Can you name one instance in which the Left has successfully defeated a fascist reaction?

Well there was World War II, but it would be best if we don't replay that scenerio again.

[Durruti's Ghost]

this instance of british revolution would be unique
no?

Doesn't it seem like an enormous gamble to take, given the very low chance of success and incredibly high chance of failure, though?


Well there was World War II, but it would be best if we don't replay that scenerio again.

That's sort of true, I suppose. However, it didn't represent a victory for the Left so much as it represented a defeat for the fascists. It didn't result in the position of the working class getting any better; it just resulted in our position not getting much, much worse.

[Nwoye]

RED ARMY FACTION (http://www.revleft.com/vb/member.php?u=26241)
Reactionary
Restricted

not surprised.

[Bud Struggle]

That's sort of true, I suppose. However, it didn't represent a victory for the Left so much as it represented a defeat for the fascists. It didn't result in the position of the working class getting any better; it just resulted in our position not getting much, much worse.

I didn't mean to make too fine of a historical point with my remark--I just meant that it would be best if we avoid another Nazi Reich and the 20 or so million deaths that go along with it.

There's nothing to be gained by any National Socialist victory whatsoever except death, pain and endless human suffering.

[Durruti's Ghost]

I didn't mean to make too fine of a historical point with my remark--I just meant that it would be best if we avoid another Nazi Reich and the 20 or so million deaths that go along with it.

There's nothing to be gained by any National Socialist victory whatsoever except death, pain and endless human suffering.

Very true.

[Decolonize The Left]

maybe i am uneducated in theory but i am inclined to disagree, i am sure the people of britain would rise, especially groups like the INLA in northern ireland creating a mass of support for the guerrilla fighters, in germany the raf had over 6 million symperthisers, if you do not beleive me look it up, well imagine a fascist government of nazi persuasion, the people will definately rise up, others will fight for the bnp, sparking civil war and pushing the people into two camps socialist fascist, at that point we would wether the mods on revleft are as revolutionary as they proclaim.

You fail to understand the conditions necessary for a revolution. Revolutions are not launched due to reactionaries in government - ever (as far as I know). Revolutions are launched due to material conditions which toll on the working class to the point where they feel they have no choice but to seize control of the means of production for their own survival.

A revolution is necessary when the majority undergoes relative deprivation; i.e. when their ideas of the way things should be are contrasted directly by the material conditions which tell them things are not, and won't be, that way.

What you are claiming here is that the public will moralize to an enormous degree and seize up arms against a government which was just 'democratically' elected! Given that this is posited in a large industrial nation where consumer durables are readily available, I don't see how this is anything beyond pure idealism.

- August

[LOLseph Stalin]

The BNP could be closet leftists. Ok, no. That's about as likely as Obama being a closet commie.

[Dr Mindbender]

I want the BNP to win, because when they do, the conditions for revolution will come about.
do you agree with my opinion
Did the population of Germany become any more communist after Hitler won?

[RED ARMY FACTION]

the conditions will never come about in britain its too well off and not poverty stricken, in the first world, the conditions will never be there until the third world is won by revolution

[Glenn Beck]

Did someone say BNP??!
http://www.unionjackwear.co.uk/images/great%20britain%20bulldog.jpg
FUCK YEAH BNP

[Dr Mindbender]

the conditions will never come about in britain its too well off and not poverty stricken, in the first world, the conditions will never be there until the third world is won by revolution

Its isnt just poverty and wealth that creates revolutionary circumstances. It's also other factors, like class consciousness, public anger at the establishment etc.

Radical political change usually do happen in times of crisis. It's worth remembering that right before the victory of the nazis, the German communists were also in a position to seize power but were forbidden by Moscow from forming a united pact to win the election. It could have gone either way. If the fascists ever win, it'll be too late for a revolution because it'll be away with the democratic ladder and to the gas chambers with anyone who complains. That is why they must be thwarted at all costs.

In regards to the sectarianism in the German left of the 1920's, why i mantain that in this country, one of the left's biggest enemies are itself. We can't even agree amongst ourselves let alone convince the public that our ideology is best.

[ls]

We fight for workers' economic wins in actions such as strikes because we want the best for them, given the conditions, wanting the BNP to win is just reformist but obviously other people who want them to win are fascist, in your case it's idiotic reformism.

[Dr Mindbender]

idiotic reformism.
understatement of the century.

[ls]

understatement of the century.

I don't think RAF is a fascist. :p Perhaps an idiot, but not a fascist.

[Dr Mindbender]

I don't think RAF is a fascist. :p Perhaps an idiot, but not a fascist.

I'm not making that insinuation either, but seriously... Wanting the BNP to win to create a revolution is beyond stupid.

[ls]

I'm not making that insinuation either, but seriously... Wanting the BNP to win to create a revolution is beyond stupid.

Eh fair enough, of course people do the BNP vote as a protest vote though they do not really necessarily want them to 'win', that was the point I was attempting to convey although I didn't do it very well. :p

[Dr Mindbender]

Eh fair enough, of course people do the BNP vote as a protest vote though they do not really necessarily want them to 'win', that was the point I was attempting to convey although I didn't do it very well. :p

Most people who vote BNP dont do so because they want communism either. Usually its because they dont see an alternative and dont feel that theyve anything to lose by them coming into power.

[ls]

Most people who vote BNP dont do so because they want communism either. Usually its because they dont see an alternative and dont feel that theyve anything to lose by them coming into power.

Well of course, most people who are semi-quietly sympathetic to socialism do not vote BNP, but do have xenophobic views, that is my experience.

[#FF0000]

To be serious, the idea that shit needs to get worse for the workers for people to "wake up" is one that just doesn't make sense when you look at history. See: world war I, world war II, Thatcher, Reagan...etc.

[Rosa Provokateur]

BTW the guy who said the BNP speak the truth should be fucking banned straight away, thats fucking pathetic
http://bogomip.net/images/humor/irony.jpg

[gorillafuck]

It would do you some good to really rethink some of your political positions, RAF. You're idea of creating conditions for revolution is to have fascists come to power for people to unite against and win people over through terrorist attacks.

[Conquer or Die]

The total destruction of a fascist britain may be the psychological therapy needed for a majority of the world's peoples.

Ed: Let's talk inevitability as well. Britain is on a short road to a racialism based country. France could be the necessary part 2 for the new imperialist axis.

[9]

Yeah, to the OP... it's pretty sad that it was only 70 years ago that this happened in Germany (as others have noted) and yet you appear to be unable to see the failure of such a "strategy". I wonder what the 15+ million people who were systematically exterminated by the Nazis would think of your suggestion... it does nothing but harm to the working class and to the cause of communism.

[Conquer or Die]

Yeah, to the OP... it's pretty sad that it was only 70 years ago that this happened in Germany (as others have noted) and yet you appear to be unable to see the failure of such a "strategy". I wonder what the 15+ million people who were systematically exterminated by the Nazis would think of your suggestion... it does nothing but harm to the working class and to the cause of communism.

Or it's an inevitability within the workings of the materialist world.

[9]

Or it's an inevitability within the workings of the materialist world.
Either way, that does not justify communists supporting the victory of fascists.

[Yazman]

RAF you're fucking stupid.
The only thing thats fucking stupid is people who make one-liner posts slandering users who need education. Don't bother to post if you're just going to say crap like this. Instead you should be stating WHY you think its stupid, and why he's wrong.

Yazman

[RHIZOMES]

I want the BNP to win, because when they do, the conditions for revolution will come about.
do you agree with my opinion

Wow I never knew that German communists from the early 1930's had time machines. Amazing!

[RED ARMY FACTION]

:Dhaha lol
no but we live long lives and we will have our revenge

[RED ARMY FACTION]

and anywaythey did gain from hitler getting power, they got east germany

[Bud Struggle]

and anywaythey did gain from hitler getting power, they got east germany

Again: the best way to win converts to Communism isn't by the slaughter of 20+ million innocent people. And there is a chance and a pretty good one that Hitler might have won the war instead of the Allies.

Then what?

[Sam_b]

and anywaythey did gain from hitler getting power, they got east germany

Almost worth all those socialists, communists and trade unionists getting murdered eh?

This is the strangest justification or explaination I have ever seen.

[RED ARMY FACTION]

revolution is always stained by blood revolutuion may cost millions of lives, but think of all the future deaths of capitalism that will of been prevented

[IcarusAngel]

Ppl. have to be prepared mentally for a post-capitalist society. Trying to force people into ideas when they're not ready leads to all kinds of backlash. You play your hand intelligently, as the gay rights movement is doing by democratically pushing for their rights. (They're very strong in their rhetoric, but they're not too crazy with it.)

The idea of a revolution is that ppl. recognize the plight that they're in, and deal with it. Revolutions where you're just forcing people to agree always fails.

[Paul Cockshott]

Speaking of WWII




That's sort of true, I suppose. However, it didn't represent a victory for the Left so much as it represented a defeat for the fascists. It didn't result in the position of the working class getting any better; it just resulted in our position not getting much, much worse.

I dont see how any social history that compared the 1930s to the late 1940s could reach that conclusion.

[fidzboi]

Once the people realized they had voted facsists into power they would look to the power that was resisting them, they would look to us.

This is where your arguments hits troubled times. Fascism is a movement, one which has historically arisen to counteract the communist movement. fascist parties build a whole, engulfing social network around them which seeks to create a nation of mini fascists. I imagine that like most of us you would have been taught about Nazi Germany in school, remember all the stuff about the Hitler Youth and all the other social orgs surrounding the Nazi Party? Well these serve to create a fascist culture, one in which the majority of a countries populace 'realizes' nothing more than fascist principles.

When fascists have access to the state apparatus, historically, they have pursued policies of social indoctrination and the brutal suppression of opposition groups. In such a situation, once the fascists have taken hold of the state machinery there has been little opportunity for organised resistance, certainly mass based organised resistance, and the indoctrination of the populace has been significant. A number of academics have written about how deep seated Nazi propaganda was in the public consciousness for many years after the end of the Third Reich.

So fascism in power, from our perspective, is disastrous. If the BNP were in power right now, most of the British members of this board would either be dead, in prison, or afraid to post. Never mind actually doing anything, we wouldn't even be able to discuss doing anything! That is not good. However, if you'd said that a powerful fascist movement arising was a good sign, you might have a kinda' weird point.

A powerful fascist movement, historically, has accompanied and arisen because of a powerful workers movement. So one could possibly argue that a fascist movement gaining prominence represents the ruling class becoming more and more fearful of us, the working class. But arguing that it would be good for the BNP, or any other fascist group, to take state power, is misguided. It would result in one thing: the destruction of the revolutionary workers' movement.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

Not that my opinion matters, but penalising someone for asking a question and arguing a point that, whether incorrect or correct, is, inkeeping with the ethos of the board, an argument which finds its base in a desire to further revolutionary struggle, seems just as misguided as RAF's perspective. Is there a bigger picture here? Or is it just a case of seasoned politicos not willing to accept people who haven't already purchased the good revolutionary guide: pre-determined, pre-selected answers to integrate as your own, available from all good political orgs, whilst stocks last.

?????

[Durruti's Ghost]

Speaking of WWII



I dont see how any social history that compared the 1930s to the late 1940s could reach that conclusion.

Correlation does not equal causation. Yes, conditions in the '30s were worse than conditions in the '40s, but it doesn't make much sense to attribute this to the rise and defeat of fascism. Unless you by into the whole "war is needed to stimulate the economy!" rubbish.

[Black_Flag]

Almost worth all those socialists, communists and trade unionists getting murdered eh?

This is the strangest justification or explaination I have ever seen.



revolution is always stained by blood revolutuion may cost millions of lives, but think of all the future

Sam_b was talking about socialists, communists and trade unuionists getting murders under the Nazis, so how are you tring to justify that by talking about revolution? I'd hardly call that a revolution.

[Nwoye]

and anywaythey did gain from hitler getting power, they got east germany
jesus h christ

[RED ARMY FACTION]

the working class is pretty much dead on its feet.
our class is apathetic its unreal, change will not come like in russia because the thing is we are exploited in the uk but we are like the house negros of capitalism, therfor we get it better than the third world field negro.
we will never wake the masses up without action, the bullshit about raising class conceousness, they are concious they just dont care, at all, because they think its great because they live in a "DEMOCRACY".
wise up, its too late for raising awareness, that ship sailed when people realised that capitalism was bad, but they like it because alot of people say communism would be boring because they would not have their luxuries or you cant strive to be the best etc etc.
if they are not part of the solution they are part of the problem.

[Red Icepick]

The BNP could be closet leftists. Ok, no. That's about as likely as Obama being a closet commie.

Haha. Yeah, that's like saying the Taliban are closet leftists. Oh wait, Khad really says that...

[RED ARMY FACTION]

lol

[Module]

I doubt RAF is stupid, I think it's stupid to answer people in that way.

I think it would be a shame if the only way people would want communism is if they were ... desperate. Surely socialism should be stronger than that.

[RED ARMY FACTION]

i think socialism is too weak to ever come about through mass movement, the working class will never beleive that the gov the bbc and sky news is lying to them.
they will be told how evil we are and once they have been brainwashed 99 percent of the time it is too late.
only military focos will shake the foundations of capitalism and when we are honest to ourselves, we know armed actions are the only way to dismantle capitalism

[#FF0000]

we know armed actions are the only way to dismantle capitalism

[citation needed]


also: did you just ignore every post in this thread because I am pretty sure by now you'd have to acknowledge that you're advocating two strategies that have failed throughout history.

[RED ARMY FACTION]

so have yours, otherwise we would be in a communist society, also just becauswe something failed once it will automatically fail again

[Old Man Diogenes]

That same stupid view was articulated by some German Communists in 1932. Look how that fantastic plan worked out.

There is a really good documentary I watched in a History class (I don't remember the name, unfortunately) once about Germany before the Nazi Party got into power and it actually has former members of the Young Communist Party from this time asserting this view also.

[Module]

i think socialism is too weak to ever come about through mass movement, the working class will never beleive that the gov the bbc and sky news is lying to them.
they will be told how evil we are and once they have been brainwashed 99 percent of the time it is too late.
only military focos will shake the foundations of capitalism and when we are honest to ourselves, we know armed actions are the only way to dismantle capitalism
You know, I don't necessarily think that is true - that they will never believe the government, the BBC and Sky News are lying to them. If anything, it's the opposite. Levels of trust in politicians from the general public is abysmally low. I think people are very suspicious of the media, unfortunately most people don't have the time for (or the interest in) reading around political issues and what they see on the news. I don't think views like this are giving people enough credit. People have common sense.

[Dejavu]

No, it doesn't work like that.

Fascists getting into power means workers movements get smashed and set back, and the leaders get killed. In Germany and Italy before Hitler and Mussolini, there were massive socialist movements that were subsequently destroyed by the state.

-Alex


How many of those socialists did not try to fight fascism but merely 'converted' over to it?

[fidzboi]

the working class is pretty much dead on its feet.

Your point has some merit, as the working class over the last few decades has suffered some major defeats. It's not surprising then that quite pessimistic revolutionary thought, like yours, becomes prevalent in such times. But your point about mass indoctrination is groundless, every indicator shows that people are more cynical today than they ever have been, and indeed state propaganda has become much more subtle and less able to indoctrinate people.

Don't believe me? Ask someone in their 50's or 60's if they remember having nuclear bomb drills where they hid under their desks in an attempt to safe themselves from a Soviet dirty bomb. That's indoctrination.

What's more both you, I and others on this board have clearly overcome our 'indoctrination'. Is that because we're particularly brilliant? I'm certainly not and I don't think most people on this board would hold such a view. Perhaps you do, and perhaps you are exceptional, but the existence of ordinary people seeing through the fog, suggests that your ideas that we will never rise are are misinformed.

Major social transformation is a complex beast, like society itself, and I'd proffer that at this time, your understanding of the two is rather reductionist and simplistic. You focus on very small factors and situations, ignoring contradictory evidence, and instead universalise these circumstances into general laws of societal action. You want everything in the here and now, but it takes time and effort to build everything!

And again, arguing that people who are supposedly hopelessly lost to us should vote the BNP into power, based on the view that these supposedly lost people would realise their folly whilst you proclaim that normally they are unable to see past BBC propaganda never mind fascist, is a nonsensical position. If you wish to engage with my point, please do so; but from looking at this thread you seem not to want to understand, but to just proclaim.

Revolutionaries must understand... if the point is to change the world, then we first must understand how to do that.

[#FF0000]

How many of those socialists did not try to fight fascism but merely 'converted' over to it?

A handful but they were usually non-marxist socialists, I think. Mussolini and Mosley and them.

[Rosa Provokateur]

and anywaythey did gain from hitler getting power, they got east germany

If East Germany was a victory then I'd hate to see what a defeat looked like.

http://www.timetravelerproductions.com/2204BE4.jpg

[Rosa Provokateur]

just becauswe something failed once it will automatically fail again

Russia, China, Vietnam, North Korea, Cambodia, and Cuba.

I've got six reasons right there for you, if you feel antsy enought to go for number seven then be my guest but don't cry over spilt milk once it either crumbles or goes corrupt.

[RHIZOMES]

and anywaythey did gain from hitler getting power, they got east germany

Yeah because East Germany totally came about due to a worker's revolution. :rolleyes:

[RHIZOMES]

Your point has some merit, as the working class over the last few decades has suffered some major defeats. It's not surprising then that quite pessimistic revolutionary thought, like yours, becomes prevalent in such times. But your point about mass indoctrination is groundless, every indicator shows that people are more cynical today than they ever have been, and indeed state propaganda has become much more subtle and less able to indoctrinate people.

I disagree, I think discourses such as identity politics/multiculturalism and a focus on individual failings as being to blame for people's position in life (Welfare mothers, dole bludgers, etc), two totally mainstream ideas today, are due to a culmination of decades of indoctrination and propaganda. I think the cultishness of the Obama campaign had elements of mass indoctrination. I think support for imperialist wars such as the "War on Terror" is due to media and politician propaganda, as they predominantly mold what discourses are seen as legitimate and which aren't (i.e. the completely exonymic terms "extremist" and "terrorist", which lump fascists and communists together, national liberation movements with Al Qaeda as one and the same). I think these processes of indoctrination are completely vital for a revolutionary to recognise.

However those things came about through much more subtle means than propaganda which is openly government-sponsored such as in Nazi Germany.

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

I kind of see where RAF is coming from.

Instead of govt in power that fuck minorities and the poor behind their back every goddamn day, why not one that tryto fuck 'em to tha face?

How about govt that, instead of saying it wants to go blow shit up for freedom, says it wants to go blow shit up for MONEY

Fuck it, come and tell us what ya really want.

Enough of the bullshit and all that, nobodys gonna try and stop the rape if they don't know they're bein fuckd. And when they ppull som bs and starts roundign peolpe up bang! bang! bang! mo fucka! go louis 16 on dem mofuckas!

sometimes I wish Obama was overthrown in a right-wing coup, just to see if the country had the balls to react. I think itd actytually bes a liberatin unitin experience.

no mor politicals as usaul eh? hehehe

[RHIZOMES]

I kind of see where RAF is coming from.

Instead of govt in power that fuck minorities and the poor behind their back every goddamn day, why not one that tryto fuck 'em to tha face?

How about govt that, instead of saying it wants to go blow shit up for freedom, says it wants to go blow shit up for MONEY

Fuck it, come and tell us what ya really want.

Enough of the bullshit and all that, nobodys gonna try and stop the rape if they don't know they're bein fuckd. And when they ppull som bs and starts roundign peolpe up bang! bang! bang! mo fucka! go louis 16 on dem mofuckas!

sometimes I wish Obama was overthrown in a right-wing coup, just to see if the country had the balls to react. I think itd actytually bes a liberatin unitin experience.

no mor politicals as usaul eh? hehehe

lol are you drunk

[Red Icepick]

If the BNP took power and didn't have the support of the military, it's likely that the military could easily topple them, open up a civil war, and pave the way for Socialism. Revolutions typically always work on the side that has military support(or at least the support of the most trained combatants), typically the right manages to take hold but not always. In Hitler's early days in power, he was extremely worried the military would schuck him. If the military was filled with revolutionary zeal and the BNP took power, that would probably be an instant civil war. I don't think that is the case, however.

[ls]

If the BNP took power and didn't have the support of the military, it's likely that the military could easily topple them, open up a civil war, and pave the way for Socialism. Revolutions typically always work on the side that has military support(or at least the support of the most trained combatants), typically the right manages to take hold but not always. In Hitler's early days in power, he was extremely worried the military would schuck him. If the military was filled with revolutionary zeal and the BNP took power, that would probably be an instant civil war. I don't think that is the case, however.

Definitely not a wholly pointless post.

[rhys]

If the BNP took power and didn't have the support of the military, it's likely that the military could easily topple them, open up a civil war, and pave the way for Socialism. Revolutions typically always work on the side that has military support(or at least the support of the most trained combatants), typically the right manages to take hold but not always. In Hitler's early days in power, he was extremely worried the military would schuck him. If the military was filled with revolutionary zeal and the BNP took power, that would probably be an instant civil war. I don't think that is the case, however.

'Never play at Revolution'. Military coups are nothing to do with working class revolution and never will be, fascists destroy working class power and the German CP was suicidal when it didn't throw everything into beating Hitler. The only thing the working class can ever trust is itself. As British industry is allowed to decline, the fight moves elsewhere: let's stop being so provincial.

[Red Icepick]

'Never play at Revolution'. Military coups are nothing to do with working class revolution and never will be, fascists destroy working class power and the German CP was suicidal when it didn't throw everything into beating Hitler. The only thing the working class can ever trust is itself. As British industry is allowed to decline, the fight moves elsewhere: let's stop being so provincial.

Don't be confused, I'm not talking about a coup where the top brass takes over. That's why I specified in 'trained combatants.' The Bolsheviks were successful because they captured the hearts of the soldiers. In Germany after WWI, the Spartacists, Volksmarine, and soldiers councils were beaten by the Freikorps because most veterans had nationalist tendencies. So I'm not necessarily speaking of a coup, the generals are worthless, but actual support from the soldiers at the bottom. If they opt out then the generals have nothing and the government's executive power is seriously depleted.

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

Never mind my last post due to not being totally sober.

Anyway, I'd have more faith in the english overthrowing fascism than Germany. In the 1930s, Germany didn't exactly have a long history of bourgeois republics, and the Germany under that republic wan't exactly going through the golden years.

[Luís Henrique]

I want the BNP to win, because when they do, the conditions for revolution will come about.
do you agree with my opinion

So, we should just wait for the BNP winning - that's what our activity should be for this time?

What kind of reasoning is this - "rooting" for something to happen, without taking any action towards this?

On the other hand, if you actually think that the BNP winning is a good thing, can you explain why should we not act to facilitate their victory?

Luís Henrique

[Radical]

I understand the thoery, but it is way too risky. When Mussolini was a Socialist, he wanted Italy to join World War I so that it could create a Revolutionary situation in Italy.

I must also note. Dont take on the SWP Propaganda. The BNP is not a Nazi-party. They are Nationalists and Fascists. It is Counter-Productive to our Movement to call them Nazis. It is not difficult to find out that they do not advocate the Aryan Race or persecution of Jews. The majority of people think the Left are a joke when we use such words. Make no mistake, when Marxist-Leninism prosper, the Trotskyists will cease to attack the BNP. Instead they will go to extreme lenths to attack Marxist-Leninists and call us Stalinists, full well knowing that we are not Stalinists, just like they know the BNP are not Nazis.

[Nwoye]

Make no mistake, when Marxist-Leninism prosper, the Trotskyists will cease to attack the BNP. Instead they will go to extreme lenths to attack Marxist-Leninists and call us Stalinists, full well knowing that we are not Stalinists, just like they know the BNP are not Nazis.
this has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the thread.

[ls]

Make no mistake, when Marxist-Leninism prosper, the Trotskyists will cease to attack the BNP. Instead they will go to extreme lenths to attack Marxist-Leninists and call us Stalinists, full well knowing that we are not Stalinists, just like they know the BNP are not Nazis.

You should make a song out of this.

[Sam_b]

It is not difficult to find out that they do not advocate the Aryan Race or persecution of Jews

How ridiculous.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6X8QQwU00Jk&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlMD9k7z7eI

Why not look up the videos of Mark Collett saying that he admires Hitler? Or that Hitler took things "a bit too far". Just because the BNP does not explicitly state things does not mean they do not permeate the very heart of the party, or make them less true.

[bailey_187]

The BNP is not a Nazi-party. They are Nationalists and Fascists.

Sorry Comrade but that is false

http://www.hopenothate.org.uk/the-real-bnp/images/JohnTyndall_left.jpg

The guy on the left is the founder of the BNP

Besides, there is really little difference between Nazism and Fascism.

[ls]

Sorry Comrade but that is false

http://www.hopenothate.org.uk/the-real-bnp/images/JohnTyndall_left.jpg

The guy on the left is the founder of the BNP

He died some time ago thankfully, unfortunately since then Nick has tried to make the party look respectable.


Besides, there is really little difference between Nazism and Fascism.

This gives a rough summary http://www.differencebetween.net/miscellaneous/difference-between-fascism-and-nazism/.

The BNP are certainly an ultra-nationalist fascist party, there are a lot of nazis in their ranks, then again there are a larger amount of confused nationalistic people who don't know where else to turn.

[Luís Henrique]

then again there are a larger amount of confused nationalistic people who don't know where else to turn.

Looks like a description of the Nazi party itself.

Luís Henrique

[SocialPhilosophy]

The BNP could be closet leftists. Ok, no. That's about as likely as Obama being a closet commie.

Obama? Not Communist!? B..B..but the 9/12ers seem so sure!!!!!! :lol:

(note, for those who lack a sense of humor, this is known as Sarcasm)

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

"Currently joining CPGBML".

I take it the OP's politics won't be improving any time soon.

RAF, you should read the Communist Manifesto and Engels' Principles of Communism in order to better understand the driving forces behind economic and social history. I would explain it here, but i'm sure Karl and Friedrich do it far, far better;)

[Patchd]

As revolutionaries, we understand that revolutionary situations will probably come about during a time of hardship, or of a big change in their immediate social and economic conditions, however as working class people ourselves, we never call for our conditions to get hard. You realise what would happen if the BNP get into power? My rights, as a homosexual, as well as my own personal security would pretty much diminish overnight, as well as the rights of many other groups, ethnic minorities, asylum seekers, women, transgender people, LGBQ people, and also never to be left out, the working class gets a complete new look at what Capitalist oppression really means.

That big change in social or economic conditions could well come about as a result of a crackdown by the state on growing workers' forms of organisation, but that comes about through our own struggle against the state, and capitalism, whatever form it arises in, very importantly, fascism.

[reporter]

why.
the BNP would try and deport blacks asians jews they would be oppressive to gays and lesbians, they would take away the little freedoms we had under capitalism.


how in the hell are they not in power now :crying:

they should and would "Git er Done"

too many people taking the wrong colour pill these days damned liberals destroying all that's good and wholesome in our fine society