Griffin on Question Time

[Holden Caulfield]

Thoughs?

[Vanguard1917]

The Tory, the Lib Dem and the New Labour Government Minister competed over who could most loudly call Griffin a racist and take the highest moral ground, and then proceeded to have a fight about which one of them would most effectively suppress further immigration! What was confirmed is that the biggest enemy of immigrants to Britain is not largely powerless individuals like Nick Griffin, but the main establishment parties, with whom the 'anti-fascist' protestors at the BBC were more than happy to stand shoulder to shoulder.

[BobKKKindle$]

I saw Pogue at the protest.

[Anton]

The Tory, the Lib Dem and the New Labour Government Minister competed over who could most loudly call Griffin a racist and take the highest moral ground, and then proceeded to have a fight about which one of them would most effectively suppress further immigration!
this.

Jack Straw amazingly managed to beat Nick at being a stammering idiot unable to formulate a sentence.

[Socialist Guy]

I'd rather he wasn't on all together, but I think Jack Straw did a good job along with the rest of the panel in drowing Nick Griffin out.

[Revy]

This is something I don't understand about the UK. Numerous individuals are banned (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_individuals_banned_from_entering_the_Unite d_Kingdom) from entering the UK because of their extremist views. But Nick Griffin and the BNP are somehow allowed to be considered a normal political party (by appearing on what appears to be an important political show), despite clearly having similar views.

[Pogue]

The Tory, the Lib Dem and the New Labour Government Minister competed over who could most loudly call Griffin a racist and take the highest moral ground, and then proceeded to have a fight about which one of them would most effectively suppress further immigration! What was confirmed is that the biggest enemy of immigrants to Britain is not Nick Griffin, but the main establishment parties, with whom the 'anti-fascist' protestors at the BBC were more than happy to stand shoulder to shoulder.

Yes, it would certainly have been much better for none of us to turn up, lest some keyboardist prick on the internet criticise us for it.


I saw Pogue at the protest.

I had yo back Bob, even though I stormed ahead of you :lol:

[RedAnarchist]

If you're a Facebook friend of mine, you should read my comments on there. Griffin made a total fool out of himself, and I hope it hits the BNP hard. It won't cause their overnight collapse, but this has got to have damaged the mask they love to wear in front of the public.

[Vanguard1917]

Yes, it would certainly have been much better for none of us to turn up, lest some keyboardist prick on the internet criticise us for it.

Using your head to its maximum capacity again i see.

What about taking the opportunity to stage a demonstration against immigration controls? Would that not have been better than trying to side with the state against a relative non-entity like Nick Griffin?

[Stranger Than Paradise]

My highlight was the part where Griffin called the BBC an ultra-leftist organisation.

[Vanguard1917]

If you're a Facebook friend of mine, you should read my comments on there. Griffin made a total fool out of himself, and I hope it hits the BNP hard. It won't cause their overnight collapse, but this has got to have damaged the mask they love to wear in front of the public.

Yes, i guess it will fail to incite the pogroms and race riots that the elitist 'anti-fascist' protestors hysterically thought it would. Even the scrutiny of a panel largely made up of utter idiots was too much for the pathetic politics of Nick Griffin.

[Stranger Than Paradise]

The other three panel members had no real alternative to Nick Griffins policies. No real analysis of why the BNP has gained support. Just a load of bollocks about clamping down on immigration.

[POUM]

It seems to me the result is pretty positive:

1) Antifascists made a strong presence and showed public dissatisfaction with Griffin and the BNP
All the media attention was focused on the protests rather than the actual talkshow

2) Griffin was aired anyway and ended up looking like a complete jackass.

[Vanguard1917]

1) Antifascists made a strong presence and showed public dissatisfaction with Griffin and the BNP

A few hundred protestors is not 'the public'. The more likely scenario is that the vast majority of the public in Britain opposed the state and media censorship of Nick Griffin that the 'anti-fascist' campaigners outside the BBC were demanding, while at the same time rejecting the BNP's politics.

[POUM]

Maybe a few hundred, but still louder than anyone else. When people look back they won't remember a collectively shared tought that you described, they will remember a protest and the storming of the BBC and will have a memory of opposition. In fact, i was refering to a general anti-bnp sentiment, not to a pro-censorship-anti-bnp sentiment

When do protests today even gather more than a average thousand people anyway?

[Dr Mindbender]

it was fucking pathetic IMO.

There was 3 members of the heavyweight parties squabbling as to how they could steal the BNP's thunder over who can be nastiest to immigrants. All they did was pay lip service to Griffin's venomous paranoia.

No criticism was levelled against the bosses, some of which were there going by the prescence of the pinstripe suits with their pro-Cameron chorus in the front row of the audience. Course, you couldnt expect much else, its not as if that lot have a leg to stand on patronising the public why they're so much better. If anything, all the BBC did was substantiate why the BNP shouldnt have a platform because those useless tossers dont have any alternative answers. It would have been more positive if they'd at least invited a representative of the anti-fascist movement to the platform rather than some american scholar who knows fuck all about working class reality.

Did anyone hear that gobshite Peter Hain go on about how stupid the protestors were for 'giving oxygen' to the BNP?

[Lyev]

Apparently 8 million people watched it last night; which I kinda like cos Griffin looked like a cock, but then again so did Jack Straw at times, but it probably sparked debate with people that aren't usually interested in politics. Although it did big up all the other mainstream parties; it's hard to not look respectable beside Mr Griffin.

Can I just ask, though, is it racist to have immigration laws? To not let some immigrants into the country, even 'illegal' ones? I understand the peril of overcrowding in some areas, and that a country needs to fend for it's own needs on a national level, but immigration, I believe, is an international level. People displaced by war and famine can't just be left wandering the planet looking for a country to go to, when they've been rejected entry to another.

[Spawn of Stalin]

I don't think all immigration laws are racist, though personally I favour open borders. Currently this country does have racist immigration laws though, since some nationalities are allowed to travel freely in and out of Britain, while some are not allowed to, we have the EU to thank for that.

Apparently Nick is going to be making an official complaint to the BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8322322.stm).

[Devrim]

Personally, I can understand why people don't want to see this sort of racist nonsense on their TV screens. Here we have a man who openly refuses to speak to Muslim women*, and was responsible for kicking out hundreds of Asylum seekers, including one Iraqi on whose rejection he wrote in 2000 "We have faith in the integrity of the Iraqi [/URL]judicial process and that you should have no concerns if you haven’t done anything wrong", and did his best to appear stronger on immigration than the BNP.


Yet where were the protests against Jack Straw.


Devrim[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Straw#cite_note-N000100-6"] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq)

[Devrim]

Currently this country does have racist immigration laws though, since some nationalities are allowed to travel freely in and out of Britain, while some are not allowed to, we have the EU to thank for that.

No you don't. Turks with Green 'special' passports, which are given to state employees, nurses, teachers, etc, can travel to most European countries without a visa. Britain is one of the few that still demands them. It has nothing to do with the EU.

Devrim

[Holden Caulfield]

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2009/10/440453.html

[Stranger Than Paradise]

Get this racist Jack Straw off the BBC

Leaflet distributed at the Unite Against Fascism demonstration against British National party leader Nick Griffin's appearance on Question Time arguing against censorship and "ruling class anti-fascism".

The recent row over the British National Party’s appearance on BBC Question Time displays the level of anger at the rise of the far-right party. All of us have turned out today because we oppose Nick Griffin’s racist effort to blame immigrants for all of society’s ills, including the economic crisis, and do not want his rubbish to gain more of an audience. But given the level of establishment racism, a campaign to defend immigrants must not stop at mere anti-BNPism, nor can the growth of the far-right be stopped by appealing to the existing authorities to silence them.

The rise of the BNP
The BNP’s electoral support has rocketed in recent years—in the last decade its European Election vote has increased ten-fold, achieving nearly one million votes in this June’s poll. Much greater in number than the fascist core leaders of the party, BNP voters are typically identified as working-class former Labour voters who no longer feel that they have a ‘voice’ with the open pro-business turn of that party. The BNP does not simply advocate its racist ideology, but also plays on very real concerns like poor housing, underfunded public services, and the economic crisis, to win support for their effort to scapegoat immigrants for these same problems. With all the main ruling class parties agreeing to the ‘austerity consensus’ that working-class people have to suffer because of the crisis, for some voters the BNP seem like an alternative.

Ruling class anti-fascism
For this very reason it is mistaken to believe that the Labour and Conservative parties are allies in efforts to stop the growth of the BNP, as Unite Against Fascism does. UAF platforms often feature establishment politicians like Peter Hain, or even Sir Teddy Taylor, one of the most right-wing leaders of the Tories, because they are ‘anti-fascist’, and yet these are exactly the people at fault for the rise in the BNP vote. It is no good to accept the behaviour of the existing parties and keep silent about their racism and their capitalist ‘austerity and cuts’ consensus. This was shown when UAF’s Weyman Bennett, a member of the Socialist Workers Party, debated the BNP’s Simon Darby on the radio, steadfastly remaining ‘apolitical’ and saying nothing as Darby attacked bankers and free-market capitalism for causing the crisis—making it look as if the BNP were the only alternative on offer. This is a dead end both in terms of stopping people turning to the BNP, and stopping the media and political onslaught against immigrants.

Moreover, although the Tory and Labour politicians who have alienated their voter base routinely denounce the despicable racist ideas of the BNP, they do so not because of sincere concern for immigrants, but rather for fear of a challenge to their support. They themselves rail against ‘illegal’ immigrants even more than against the far-right. And these politicians are not just speechifying: for some, this support for racist borders poses a very real life-and-death risk. In 2000, when Jack Straw, who is opposing Griffin on Question Time tonight, was Home Secretary, 58 Chinese migrants died in a truck as they were smuggled into the UK: the direct result of ‘Fortress Britain’s’ borders. Day after day we hear of more police raids on workplaces—such as SOAS or the Willis insurance office in the City of London—where unregularised migrants had spoken out against low wages and long hours. The workers were arrested, imprisoned and then flown to their countries of origin, where they face poverty and violence from paramilitaries. Just last Friday the UK Borders Agency carried out its first mass forcible deportation to Baghdad since the 2003 invasion. Disgustingly, the Daily Express congratulated them, arguing that the Iraqis threatened to bring Sharia law and mass female circumcision to the streets of Britain. These sentiments are not just coming from the BNP—they reflect a racism running deep in British society.

Freedom of speech?
This conservatism of mainstream anti-fascism is also reflected in its tactics, with UAF lobbying the great and good of the BBC as well as the state to silence the BNP. They argue that the BNP is not a ‘legitimate’ party and the state should silence it: yet surely, in the state’s eyes, the radical left, the anti-war movement and militant workers’ struggles are also not ‘legitimate’? We must have no trust in state bans or state censorship: we need only look at its use of ‘anti-terrorism’ laws to silence protests, and its demands on migrants seeking regularisation to show their ‘loyalty’, with a ban on taking part in anti-war demos. The idea of ‘legitimate’ politics, as defined by the existing ruling class, is a total dead end.

Yet that does not mean we want Nick Griffin on Question Time, and we look to a force which can challenge the BNP’s anti-immigrant propaganda: not the courts, not the Labour Party, but the collective action of organised workers. Much like the Sun workers who in 1984 blanked that papers’ lying front page during the Miners’ Strike, media workers should use their power to stop racist views getting an audience—from the BNP, or anyone else. Our support for free speech in terms of opposing state censorship by no means implies passivity to the BNP finding more and more of a platform. This debate does however pose the question of who changes society: the state intervening to curb the worst excesses of the worst parties, or collectively organised action by workers?

Migrant worker organising
Most centrally, we must challenge the underlying racism in society and insist that everyone has the right to live and work where they please and on equal terms. Only if we determinedly make the argument for this basic democratic right can we even begin to try and push back the atmosphere where Labour, Tories and the BNP trade blows over who can best sort out the ‘problem’ of immigration. Anti-racism and anti-BNPism should not be a propagandist effort separated from the existing struggles of unregularised migrants, which are usually in direct conflict with Labour.

Here we can look to migrant-worker cleaners in the City of London and on the Tube as excellent examples of how to resist the recession. These workers, many of them without papers and living in a perilous unregularised status, have refused to accept management bullying and being paid peanuts. They show the whole working class that we do not have to knuckle under and accept the Labour-Tory consensus that the working class has to suffer because of the capitalist crisis: such community and workplace resistance is the real alternative, not the BNP.

Borders, national identity and ‘legal’ and ‘illegal’ status have long been used by our rulers to divide the working class and bulldoze through their attacks. The answer is not to line up with Labour and the Tories, congratulating them on being less hostile to immigrants than the BNP are, but rather to build links between migrant workers’ struggles, resistance to the recession like the Royal Mail strikes, and anti-fascism resting on the power of organised workers rather than state censorship.

Link: http://libcom.org/library/get-racist-jack-straw-bbc

[Spawn of Stalin]

No you don't. Turks with Green 'special' passports, which are given to state employees, nurses, teachers, etc, can travel to most European countries without a visa. Britain is one of the few that still demands them. It has nothing to do with the EU.

Devrim
The EU commands racist immigration laws, of course they would exist without the EU, but on a much smaller scale. Freedom of movement for some people, no freedom of movement for others.

[communard resolution]

Yes, i guess it will fail to incite the pogroms and race riots that the elitist 'anti-fascist' protestors hysterically thought it would. Even the scrutiny of a panel largely made up of utter idiots was too much for the pathetic politics of Nick Griffin.


I agree with all of the above, as well as with Vanguard1917's previous post. Last night's TV show proved the hysteric 'no platform' strategy wrong. In fact, nothing better could have happened than Nick Griffin walking into that show and looking like an insecurely grinning idiot, scared to respond to any question honestly, hands trembling in excitement, face hung in embarrassment over his rhetoric incompentence half of the time. I would guess he lost a lot of potential voters last night. People aren't attracted to a loser. I'm writing this from work, and Nick Griffin is the running joke of the day with all of my co-workers.

The bad news is that in the second half, the mainstream politicians appropriated the BNP's anti-immigration politics and gave them a more polite/respectable face. But this was to be expected after the EU protest vote and would have happened with or without Question Time - QT was only the official christening of what we can expect to happen very soon, whether the Tories or Labour win the elections. Nick Griffin is a harmless fringe lunatic compared to Jack Straw and his ilk.

In my opinion, the Left should have pushed to get a platform on that programme. We would have gained more from that than from staging a po-faced protest in front of the BBC studios, looking like a bunch of backward halfwits that are scared of open debate while the rest of the UK was laughing at Nick Griffin the imbecile.

My SWP mate has actually just sent me a text saying that UAF tried to get in there but was banned by the BBC. Is this true? And if so, did they want to get in there to propose left-wing alternatives to the general immigrant bashing that was taking place, or just jump up and down and shout "Nazi, Nazi" over Griffin's pathetic attemps at stringing sentences together?

[Devrim]

The EU commands racist immigration laws, of course they would exist without the EU, but on a much smaller scale. Freedom of movement for some people, no freedom of movement for others.

The UK had immigration laws before joining the EEC, and today it has much stronger ones than most of the EU. You can't blame the EU for this one. It is well known that the UK is the hardest country to get a visa for in Europe.

Devrim

[Jimmie Higgins]

To people against the counter-protest, what was your alternative (assuming that the BBC would not have allowed a left-wing representative on the program)?

A protest against the BNP appearance on the show sounds like the exact type of thing that should happen. If the concern is that parties and groups with bourgeois politics were also protesting, well then wouldn't you just try and have banners and slogans that mark the differences and talk to people about how establishment parties are playing the same game as the BNP on immigration and are legitimizing their politics even while trying to exclude the party itself?

[communard resolution]

To people against the counter-protest, what was your alternative (assuming that the BBC would not have allowed a left-wing representative on the program)?Whether they would or not, we don't know. You can fill out application forms to be a member of the Question Time audience online. They ask you about your political views, but if in doubt you can write some bullshit just to get in. Had hundreds of us systematically applied, chances are several of us would have been lucky enough to get in. A few well-directed questions and comments might have not only embarrassed Griffin, but also the immigrant-bashing members of the mainstream parties. We might have also been able to put some of our ideas forward.

The programme is not broadcasted live, but a few hours after the actual debate takes place. I'm not sure if and to what extent they edit it.

As for having left-wing represenatives on the panel, I don't know about that - but did any group actually try to find out?

As for alternatives to a "ban Griffin from Question Time" demo, Vanguard1917 once again put it best:


What about taking the opportunity to stage a demonstration against immigration controls?Don't help the mainstream parties in singling out the BNP to absolve themselves from guilt while simultaneously adopting their anti-immigrant politics!

[Spawn of Stalin]

The UK had immigration laws before joining the EEC, and today it has much stronger ones than most of the EU. You can't blame the EU for this one. It is well known that the UK is the hardest country to get a visa for in Europe.

Devrim
I'm not blaming the EU for Britain's immigration laws. You just completely agreed with me, Britain is very hard to get into, unless you are already a resident of a member state.

[Led Zeppelin]

Anyone know where I can see the full episode online?

[Dr Mindbender]

Anyone know where I can see the full episode online?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00nft24/Question_Time_22_10_2009/

[communard resolution]

One last thing just before I buzz off into the weekend: if you actually think that Nick Griffin and a few thousand white nationalists are a bigger threat than the capitalist class and their henchmen in the bourgeois parties (I don't), you've got reason to celebrate:

Right now, laughter spawned by Griffin's imbecility is resounding around the country. And if you had a look at the newspaper front pages this morning, you will have noticed that the entire political establishment from the far-right Daily Mail to the liberal Guardian is slamming Griffin and laughing at him.

I particularly liked the Independent headline: "The BBC gave him the oxygen of publicity - he choked on it".

[BurnTheOliveTree]

Griffin's appearance has provoked the 'biggest recruitment in a single night' that they've ever had - 3000 are ready to sign up after they sort out their legal issues.

Yes, he got mullered and looked like an idiot for most of the show. But he's still won, just as it was pointed out that he would.

This is what happens when you give a fascist a massive platform, and no one should be surprised. Now there will be more fascist attacks on blacks, asians, jews, gay people etc. Great. I'm sure all the pretty rhetoric about how people who don't want them on there are ennabling the state will be a lot of comfort.

The rest of the panelists were terrible, with the possible exception of Bonnie Greer, often going down the same routes as the BNP. Seemed like a game of who's the biggest patriot for a bit, and the uniform agreement that we should be capping immigration and kicking people out was grotesque.

No one on there dared to suggest that immigration was not the problem, of course - the mainstream parties seem to be trying to talk like the far right to regain their lost votes. British Jobs For Brtish Workers. :(

And of course no left alternative was offered at all, which I guess is something we can all agree is terrible.

-Alex

[Led Zeppelin]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00nft24/Question_Time_22_10_2009/

Blah, I get a UK only notice.

[nuisance]

Griffin's appearance has provoked the 'biggest recruitment in a single night' that they've ever had - 3000 are ready to sign up after they sort out their legal issues.

Have you got a source for this?

[Dr Mindbender]

Blah, I get a UK only notice.

Part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4iKfrY9l2kY

Part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNVB43xfBRY

Part 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlQFvKgPSC0&feature=related

Part 4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQE0QPFoLfs&feature=related

Part 5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pX2h1A6rk6Y&feature=related

Part 6
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slya8UVaQjk&feature=related

[Spawn of Stalin]

Okay so YouGov isn't exactly the be and end all of public opinion but this BBC report (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8323638.stm) is pretty fucking terrifying. Looks like the BNP's manifestos have been removed from their website, cute.

[Yazman]

I'm watching it now, and I think this show epitomises why censorship is fucking stupid.

We don't need censorship for people to know how much the BNP sucks. They rolled on Griffin. The BNP are so fucking stupid though, XFD

HAHA I love this Bonnie Greer, she just fucking schools them whenever she opens her mouth.

Yazman

[Dr Mindbender]

I'm watching it now, and I think this show epitomises why censorship is fucking stupid.

We don't need censorship for people to know how much the BNP sucks. They rolled on Griffin. The BNP are so fucking stupid though, XFD

HAHA I love this Bonnie Greer, she just fucking schools them whenever she opens her mouth.

Yazman

The danger is that the outer urban working class feel alienated by the panelists that appeared alongside Griffin. I think indymedia made a valid point about Straw and his ilk coming across as holier-than-thou, 'middle class metropolitan clever-clogs'. This makes people empathise with Griffin as he's the one looking like the working class saviour.

[Paul Cockshott]

The danger is that the outer urban working class feel alienated by the panelists that appeared alongside Griffin. I think indymedia made a valid point about Straw and his ilk coming across as holier-than-thou, 'middle class metropolitan clever-clogs'. This makes people empathise with Griffin as he's the one looking like the working class saviour.

Those discussing this are failing to bring any political economy to it.

The rate of profit in a capitalist country is primarily determined by the rate of growth of the working population. For scientific evidence on this look at the interactive web page http://compbio.dcs.gla.ac.uk/cgi-bin/profits/home.cgi
Click on the analysis sub menue and then chose a country to examine.
which shows how you can predict the rate of profit of any leading capitalist economy using an equation one of whose main independent variables is the rate of growth of the working population.

Neo-liberalism favours the free movement of labour and capital for the very good reason that these are the optimal conditions for profit maximisation. To maintain a high rate of profit in a country with a relatively low birth rate ( like the UK ) the capitalist system requires a significant rate of inward migration, conversely, a restriction on the rate of inward migration causes the rate of profit to collapse.
I suggest that readers use the interactive web site to compare the rate of profit in a country with really strict immigration rules (Japan) with one with relatively liberal rules
like the UK or USA. The recovery of the latter two from the profits crisis of the late 1970s would not have been possible without the combination of
a) a huge waste of capital by the state and financial institutions and
b) a continued growth of the labour supply

There is thus a prima facia case that the employing class have an interest in liberal immigration policies.

On the other hand, the price of labour power, like any other commodity is determined by competition in the market. If labour is in abundant supply relative to capital, the price of labour power is depressed and capital has an advantage in bargaining with labour.

It is pointless for the left to ignore these basic facts of economics when discussing immigration. They should face up to the real dilemas that these economic realities impose for our politics.

[RHIZOMES]

well then wouldn't you just try and have banners and slogans that mark the differences and talk to people about how establishment parties are playing the same game as the BNP on immigration and are legitimizing their politics even while trying to exclude the party itself?

The problem is that we aren't doing that.

[redmarxist90]

that is very true, we aren't doing anything like that

[Pogue]

The danger is that the outer urban working class feel alienated by the panelists that appeared alongside Griffin. I think indymedia made a valid point about Straw and his ilk coming across as holier-than-thou, 'middle class metropolitan clever-clogs'. This makes people empathise with Griffin as he's the one looking like the working class saviour.

I don't think he looks like a working class saviour at all, in fact thats quite an odd thing to say. Nothing he did or said suggested he was a 'working class saviour'

[Stranger Than Paradise]

(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QAvkFS_cgk&feature=channel)
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QAvkFS_cgk&feature=channel)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QAvkFS_cgk&feature=channel

[Dr Mindbender]

I don't think he looks like a working class saviour at all, in fact thats quite an odd thing to say. Nothing he did or said suggested he was a 'working class saviour'

you only had to look at the suits and wet eared students in the audience to see it was full of the liberal elite petit bourgeoisie London 'commuter class'. Therefore i dont think the image he obtained in the studio will resonate everywhere.

Throughout the show i kept envisaging the white van men of industrial Northern towns like Oldham and Burnley rooting for him. Ultimately, if the BNP keep growing it will be thanks to the votes of people beyond the leafy 'burbs'.

As much as it pains me to admit it i dont think its coincidence the BBC decided to show the program in London rather than one of the constituencies that they're actually doing well in.

[communard resolution]

Griffin's appearance has provoked the 'biggest recruitment in a single night' that they've ever had - 3000 are ready to sign up after they sort out their legal issues.

What is the source for this - I hope not the BNP website?


Now there will be more fascist attacks on blacks, asians, jews, gay people etc. Great.How does that work?

A friend of mine keeps repeating that wherever the BNP win council seats, racist attacks go up as a consequence. Not only have I never seen any statistics to support this (neither has he), I also find this to be a very bold assumption as to cause and effect.

You go one step further. You claim that "there will be more fascist attacks on blacks, asians, jews gay people etc" because Nick Griffin made a fool of himself on television. Could you elaborate upon the social and psychological mechanisms that make this possible?

[Pogue]

you only had to look at the suits and wet eared students in the audience to see it was full of the liberal elite petit bourgeoisie London 'commuter class'. Therefore i dont think the image he obtained in the studio will resonate everywhere.

Throughout the show i kept envisaging the white van men of industrial Northern towns like Oldham and Burnley rooting for him. Ultimately, if the BNP keep growing it will be thanks to the votes of people beyond the leafy 'burbs'.

As much as it pains me to admit it i dont think its coincidence the BBC decided to show the program in London rather than one of the constituencies that they're actually doing well in.

Yes, because no one in London or who wears a suit is working class :rolleyes:

[Holden Caulfield]

I hate myself for doing this:
i agree with US over Pogue.

the BNP set itself up as the only 'major' party against the establishment, and so when ****s like Lib, Lab, Con line up to take pops at them they only reaffirm their position. This is one of the reasons why a break from (all or, at least, most) MPs is pretty vital for anti-fascists (something UAF are yet to grasp, it doesnt matter if they don't do anything, you list them on your website and it discredits you).

What I saw on Question Time was a show trial. Nobody faced him on proper working class issues, when immigration came up the major parties were happy to parrot his own line in softer terms. All they did was talk about him being a Jew hater. Let let him dodge many issues, and yeah he made a tit of himself but infront of middle class politicians. If I was on Question Time and smarmy educated MPs had a pop at me it would if anything endear me to my demographic even more. A lot of the questions were from Middle Class people, you could see it in their manner, in their questions and in their underlying political assumptions.

People who know the BNP are scum already know the BNP are scum, repeating it over and again won't change much at all. UAF/Searchlight have worked in Stoke, in Barnsley, and where ever the BNP are strong for years now. Do antifascists just think they need to be told that Griffin is a nazi one more time and the people will reject him? Do they think that this section of the working class are just slow learners?

Read the Questions you wont hear asked on question time thread, think about questions that would have turned people against them. Like why they wanted to call the army to crush strikes. Ask them that if the BNP can so easily disown its past then their criticisms of, for example, Labour are flawed because it to is entitled to disown its past. things like this will show the abursurdity of their claims.

One last point, writing in the independant Frankie Boyle said that the BNP is like a stress ball for major political parties, all who have racist policies, they can deflect attention to them and call them racist instead. They can unite sections of the working class to defend and cheer on Jack Fucking Straw against a bogy man.

The BNP is a threat, we should combat them, i do not say anything contrary to this, but if we are to suceed we must do it properly

[Pogue]

I hate myself for doing this:
i agree with US over Pogue.

the BNP set itself up as the only 'major' party against the establishment, and so when ****s like Lib, Lab, Con line up to take pops at them they only reaffirm their position. This is one of the reasons why a break from (all or, at least, most) MPs is pretty vital for anti-fascists (something UAF are yet to grasp, it doesnt matter if they don't do anything, you list them on your website and it discredits you).

What I saw on Question Time was a show trial. Nobody faced him on proper working class issues, when immigration came up the major parties were happy to parrot his own line in softer terms. All they did was talk about him being a Jew hater. Let let him dodge many issues, and yeah he made a tit of himself but infront of middle class politicians. If I was on Question Time and smarmy educated MPs had a pop at me it would if anything endear me to my demographic even more. A lot of the questions were from Middle Class people, you could see it in their manner, in their questions and in their underlying political assumptions.

People who know the BNP are scum already know the BNP are scum, repeating it over and again won't change much at all. UAF/Searchlight have worked in Stoke, in Barnsley, and where ever the BNP are strong for years now. Do antifascists just think they need to be told that Griffin is a nazi one more time and the people will reject him? Do they think that this section of the working class are just slow learners?

Read the Questions you wont hear asked on question time thread, think about questions that would have turned people against them. Like why they wanted to call the army to crush strikes. Ask them that if the BNP can so easily disown its past then their criticisms of, for example, Labour are flawed because it to is entitled to disown its past. things like this will show the abursurdity of their claims.

One last point, writing in the independant Frankie Boyle said that the BNP is like a stress ball for major political parties, all who have racist policies, they can deflect attention to them and call them racist instead. They can unite sections of the working class to defend and cheer on Jack Fucking Straw against a bogy man.

The BNP is a threat, we should combat them, i do not say anything contrary to this, but if we are to suceed we must do it properly

That doesn't deal with what I said. I mean come on you know my views better than to think I don't agree with everything you just said.

My point is, he didn't look like a 'working class saviour', I think this is evidence of a culture building up in regards to anti-fascism in which people seem to think working class people will blindly flock to Griffin because they are too thick to do anything other than side with the most controversial figure.

I didn't even watch Question Time because I knew it'd be a middle class wankfest but after seeing short clips my suspicions were confirmed.

But I think there are two problems here:

1) The assumption that a working class person cannot reject the BNP on principle of them being racist. Why is it that people here seem to think the working class is made up of mindless racists who you need to hit across the face with a paddle of 'material interests' before they will support or reject something.

2) The idea that Question Time was going to be anything else than what it was. The BNP stand out for opposition because of their extremism which is still fermente din the minds of alot of people. Its the most controversial thing. And so if someone had a chance for a pop at Griffin, someone who is anti-racist, its most likely to be this.

Obviously when going about proposing working class solutions to the issues the BNP take their own stance on we're going to forward actual policies, actual reasons why we're better than the BNP, which is why I am an advocate of organising on bread and butter issues in regards to dealing with the BNP. I don't think they will be beaten by anything other than a political alternative, i.e. an class-struggle anarchist solution to their politics, but the fact remains it's ok to reject the BNP solely because you find their racist views reprehensible. Its almost as if some people here would condemn a working class person if they said 'I don't like them, its racist'.

And sure, Question Time may be dominated overwhelmingly by middle class people, but again I think there is some sort of bias assumptions underlying such a statement, i.e. the idea that because no one stood up in paint splattered blue overalls and asked a question about pie and mash or the football in a cockney accent, there were no working class people in the audience. I think maybe alot of people have an idealised or generally odd view of what a working class person is and the sorts of issues that affect working class people.

Either way though I agree the show didn't do well enough in combatting him, but its a liberal media circus in which other reprehensible politicians spout on aload of shit to do their token conedemnation of the fascist on the panel. Since when did we ever expect Question Time to be the definitive solution to the working classes issues though? And even if middle class people did ask mdidle class questions, why does that suprise you? They are middle class after all. You can hardly expect a middle class person to ask a question about something that doesn't affect their class. of course they wont, because its not a class issue for them. So it would seem the problem is either the absence of working class people in the audience or the fact everyone seemingly missed them.

At the end of the day, Griffin went on like I personally thought he would, I knew realistically him getting stopped by us was unrealistic, everyone gave him a hard time, he spoke his usual shit, all the other neo-liberals on the board didn't succesfully combat him and fuck all else happened.

[BurnTheOliveTree]

What is the source for this - I hope not the BNP website?

The BNP claim 9,000 signed up to membership/mailing lists, I think. I got the 3000 figure from a telegraph article:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/6417906/One-in-four-would-consider-voting-BNP.html

On examination it does actually say that "the BNP claim" a 3000 rise in membership, clearly this isn't an authoritative stat then, I apologise. That said, I honestly think it's evident they've done well out of this. The article quotes a Yougov poll taken after his appearance:

22 per cent of voters would “seriously consider” voting for the BNP in a future local, general or European election.

This is a rise, by anyone's standards.


How does that work?

It works because regardless of Griffin's performance he is on a massive BBC platform. That gives the impression that his party is legitimate and going places, and gives racist thugs confidence and fuel for their fire. Suddenly they aren't marginalised, they are a serious part of British democracy.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1222498/Shocking-moment-racist-teenagers-launch-attack-Asian-shopkeeper.html

This happened like 2 days after his appearance. One of them shouted "I will kill you, you fucking paki." Another one said "Fucking **** needs to go home" to the police. I really can't imagine that this is just a big coincidence, personally.

-Alex

[Devrim]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1222498/Shocking-moment-racist-teenagers-launch-attack-Asian-shopkeeper.html

This happened like 2 days after his appearance. One of them shouted "I will kill you, you fucking paki." Another one said "Fucking **** needs to go home" to the police. I really can't imagine that this is just a big coincidence, personally.

I don't think that this racist attack is at all connected with Griffin's appearance on TV, but that is because I actually bothered to read the article:


The court heard that Gardener, who has 19 previous convictions, stormed into Costcutter in Bedminster, Bristol, with a friend on April 5 and attacked shopkeeper Hardik Patel. He punched him to the ground before hitting him twice more and shouting racist abuse.
...
On June 6, the Lovedale twins and Gardener went to Bargain Booze at 10.30pm to buy cigarettes and vodka.
When staff refused to serve them they launched a sickening assault on Ashok Selvam as a female member of staff frantically tried to fight them off with a broom handle.
They pulled Mr Selvam's T-shirt over his head and, as one brother held him in a headlock, the other repeatedly punched him in the face as they shouted racist insults.


Racist attacks are not uncommon events in the UK unfortunately. I think that the reason that this has made the news is more because of the pictures, and video evidence than anything else. It has nothing to do with Griffin's appearance on question time nearly five months later though.



Devrim

[Zanthorus]

IMO Griffin was just a puppet who played a part in a crappy stunt to provide a short break from the regular drivel that flows through the corporate media, a stunt that may have unfortunate and wide-ranging consequences for the political climate in this country :(

The best part is the people who are defending griffin on the grounds of freedom of speech. All I saw in that show was a repeat of the same ruling class drivel that immigration is a 'problem' that needs to be 'solved'. No one was allowed on who would dare question that assumption because of course that would be disruptive to the comfortable lives of our glorious corporate masters who need to keep everyone's minds trapped in a right-wing political paradigm.

I wonder what would actually happen if a radical leftist got on question time or some such.....

[BurnTheOliveTree]

Racist attacks are not uncommon events in the UK unfortunately. I think that the reason that this has made the news is more because of the pictures, and video evidence than anything else. It has nothing to do with Griffin's appearance on question time nearly five months later though

Urghh, sorry. I saw the videos and report as I was dashing through a train station played immediately after a slot on griffin's appearance, and then just looked it back up on the net. Didn't bother to check dates. Idiot. :blushing:

Do you really think there's no connection between racist attacks and racists being on a massive platform, though? Can you honestly see no reason why one would lead to the other? :confused:

-Alex

[Devrim]

Do you really think there's no connection between racist attacks and racists being on a massive platform, though? Can you honestly see no reason why one would lead to the other? :confused:

Obviously not in this case. Although the left gets excited about the BNP, I think that the real racist danger comes not from them, but from the mainstream bourgoies parties. Who on that programme had been responsible for deporting more asylum seekers, Nick Griffin or Jack Straw? Which party was it that popularised the slogan 'British jobs for British workers', the tiny BNP, or the Labour Party's Prime Minister reported in all of the bourgoies media?

As for the connection between the BNP being on TV and an increase in racist attacks I have no idea if it causes an increase. Many have argued though that BNP councillers being elected causes an increase in racist attacks. The could be a connection or it could be the other way round, areas where there are lots of racists vote BNP. The causation isn't proven either way.

It could equally be true that the worse thing on that programme wasn't Griffin being given a platform but the anti immigrant arguments that came from all of the panalists.

Devrim

[Hit The North]

It could equally be true that the worse thing on that programme wasn't Griffin being given a platform but the anti immigrant arguments that came from all of the panalists.

Devrim

The worst and the most obvious. How else did people think the establishment were going to compete with Griffin?

It would've been better if we'd stopped him getting in the building. Better still if the technicians had voted to pull the plug on the whole sorry circus.

[Vanguard1917]

The worst and the most obvious. How else did people think the establishment were going to compete with Griffin?

It would've been better if we'd stopped him getting in the building. Better still if the technicians had voted to pull the plug on the whole sorry circus.

Why? Because you fear that the masses will hear his feeble arguments and be led astray like young children.

[Hit The North]

Why? Because you fear that the masses will hear his feeble arguments and be led astray like young children.

Not the masses, genius. Are you going to deny that the BNP will see a surge in growth from this.

But it's instructive that you indicate you prefer a victory for Griffin (getting his 15 minutes on QT) than a victory for the anti-fascists - presumably on the basis that it was a victory for freedom of speech or some such bourgeois nonsense.

[Dr Mindbender]

Yes, because no one in London or who wears a suit is working class :rolleyes:

Im not saying thats the case, but equally its pretty naive that when it comes to people who get engaged in political debate to say there isnt a class divide and change of consciousness between north and south, especially when we're talking about the sort of people who are most confidently vocal in their communities and actually make the effort to appear on shows like Question time.

Besides which its much different looking at the hoyty toyty playboys with their gold cufflinks and their cookie-cutter right of centre politics, making David fucking Cameron their poster boy. Working class my arse.

[Vanguard1917]

Not the masses, genius. Are you going to deny that the BNP will see a surge in growth from this.

Of course. Whatever the reasons for any future growth, only the most philistine and backward of political outlooks would place the blame on greater freedom of speech. In reality, it is precisely suppressed public debate which creates favourable conditions for the rise of reactionary politics.

As a man who you may have heard of, Leon Trotsky, pointed out: "In fact, it is only the greatest freedom of expression that can create favorable conditions for the advance of the revolutionary movement in the working class." (link) (http://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/1938/08/press.htm)



freedom of speech or some such bourgeois nonsense.


Freedom of speech = 'bourgeois nonsense'?

Please see what the great leader of the Russian Revolution had to say on the matter above. (A person who, i might add, also said that those leaders on the left who call for bourgeois censorship are 'traitors' and that 'they should leave the ranks of the working class'.)

[Devrim]

The worst and the most obvious. How else did people think the establishment were going to compete with Griffin?

Right, and 'the establishment' didn't have racist immergration controls before the recent rise of the BNP.


It Would've been better if we'd stopped him getting in the building. Better still if the technicians had voted to pull the plug on the whole sorry circus.

Who? Jack Straw?

Devrim

[Hit The North]

Right, and 'the establishment' didn't have racist immergration controls before the recent rise of the BNP.


No, you're wrong there, Devrim. They did.


Who? Jack Straw?
I think that feat is currently beyond us.


Originally posted by Vanguard1917
In reality, it is precisely suppressed public debate which creates favourable conditions for the rise of reactionary politics.
In reality it is the failure of capitalism to satisfy the needs of workers which creates favourable conditions for the rise of reactionary politics.


Please see what the great leader of the Russian Revolution had to say on the matter above.
Are you suggesting that Lenin up-held the right to free speech as the most important political freedom, as you seem to do? You couldn't tell that from his practical politics. So either Lenin was a terrific hypocrite or he didn't cling dogmatically to the eternal verities of bourgeois ideology as you do.

[Devrim]

No, you're wrong there, Devrim. They did.

Yes that was my point. This idea, which has also been promoted on the other thread that the racist immigration policies came out to compete with Griffin is nonsense. These dare long held policies of these parties.


I think that feat is currently beyond us.

I seems that the same applies to Griffin too. I know which of the two I think is a more dangerous racist though.

Devrim

[RHIZOMES]

In reality it is the failure of capitalism to satisfy the needs of workers which creates favourable conditions for the rise of reactionary politics.

So the situation wouldn't have been better if say, for example, there was a revolutionary leftist on Question Time along with the bourgeois politicians and Nick Griffin?

[Vanguard1917]

In reality it is the failure of capitalism to satisfy the needs of workers which creates favourable conditions for the rise of reactionary politics.

No, capitalism's failures can give way to the rise of reactionary politics or radical ones. The decisive factor is subjective -- related to things like public debate and winning arguments, things which you wish to have the state (the primary enemy of progress) police and shut down.



Are you suggesting that Lenin up-held the right to free speech as the most important political freedom

I was referring to Trotsky, but, yes, both him and Lenin saw freedom from bourgeois censorship as fundamentally important for communists. That's why they opposed all censorship in capitalist society.

That you keep referring to this as 'bourgeois' -- despite the fact that Marxists have historically been the most enthusiastic and consistent opponents of censorship in capitalist society -- shows either dishonesty on your behalf or a severe lack of understanding of the political tradition which you claim to be a part of.

[Vanguard1917]

double post

[Dr Mindbender]

I seems that the same applies to Griffin too. I know which of the two I think is a more dangerous racist though.


You're not serious, are you? The likliehood of Griffin coming to power is a null point. It's his intentions that are what matters. The fact that the BNP remains a diminutive force in british politics should be celebrated yes, but not taken for granted.

[Revy]

Is UKIP not a real threat? They got more votes than Labour in June. They seem to have a lot of far-right people in their party.

[Dr Mindbender]

Is UKIP not a real threat? They got more votes than Labour in June. They seem to have a lot of far-right people in their party.

The UKIP arent fascist potential genocidal mass murderers. It's dishonest to pretend otherwise.

[Revy]

The UKIP arent fascist potential genocidal mass murderers. It's dishonest to pretend otherwise.

But UKIP gaining ground gives the BNP a boost because the UKIP thinks a xenophobic position on the issue of immigration is legitimate. And the left actually fails to deliver a critique of such positions.


The expansion of the EU has allowed uncontrolled immigration from the former Warsaw Pact nations of Eastern Europe.


Meanwhile, our public services are crumbling under the strain of the 1 million-plus people who have arrived on our shores. The government is powerless to stop this. - UKIP websiteIn fact, the supposedly "left-wing" No2EU coalition imitated such rhetoric, blaming "foreign workers" for unemployment among "local workers". It was clear to anyone with half a brain that No2EU only cared about tricking right-wing idiots into voting for them.

The elections are about issues as well as party loyalty. The rise of the right in general is the trend. This is why the BNP is growing. Resisting the BNP requires far more than just focusing on the BNP, but eliminating the political conditions which allow them to grow.

Devrim is correct.

[Dr Mindbender]

But UKIP gaining ground gives the BNP a boost because the UKIP thinks a xenophobic position on the issue of immigration is legitimate. And the left actually fails to deliver a critique of such positions.


TBH, the UKIP are a one trick pony, they are the party of ultra euro-scepticism.

On immigration, i dont think theres much 'clear blue water' between them and the conservatives.

The BNP are the only ones calling for both 0% immigration and retro-active repatriation.

[h0m0revolutionary]

TBH, the UKIP are a one trick pony, they are the party of ultra euro-scepticism.

On immigration, i dont think theres much 'clear blue water' between them and the conservatives.

The BNP are the only ones calling for both 0% immigration and retro-active repatriation.


That's not true. UKIP call to cease all immigration for a five year period. The Tories do not.

UKIP aren't a one-trick pony. They're contesting every seat in the next General Election and if you go read their manifesto comprehensively, you'll find so much reactionary, racist shit in there you'll die a little inside.

We shouldn't dismiss reactionary orginisations like UKIP as single-issue parties. They, like the other mainstream orginisations, are part of parcel of the obvious agenda to drive up anti-immigrant sentiment. The BNP are a mere byproduct of a much wider campaign by the establishment to blame immigrants for the shortcomings of capitalism.

[Devrim]

You're not serious, are you? The likliehood of Griffin coming to power is a null point. It's his intentions that are what matters. The fact that the BNP remains a diminutive force in british politics should be celebrated yes, but not taken for granted.

No, I don't think it is his intentions that matter. Which would you say is more dangerous, the chance of me being run over and killed in the (very dangerous) Ankara traffic, or the chance of me being killed by an asteroid hitting the world. Whilst one would cause immeasurable damage, it is so unlikely that I don't worry about it.

The Labour Party has expelled more asylum seekers, enacted more racist laws, and been involved in more imperialist adventures resulting in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people than the BNP could even imagine in all but their wildest fantasies.

Besides that when far right wing parties come to power, they tend to become more similar to the mainstream parties. We had the 'fascist' MHP, a much more serious and dangerous party than any of the European 'fascist' groups, in coalition government a few years ago, and I didn't really notice any difference.

I don't really think that fascism exists as a social force in its traditional sense today. Most of the so-called fascist parties are merely right winbg populists, and although the BNP has roots in neo-Nazism, it is becoming more and more of an embaressment to them. If they are to come anywhere near power, it is something that they most move away from. What would the BNP in power do? I don't think they would be setting up gas chambers, but they would certainly act against immergration and asylum seekers...just like the Labour Party have been doing over the past years, and the Tories did before them.

Devrim