Log in

View Full Version : On Rumors of Nepali Maoists, Trotskyism and Socialism in One Country



N3wday
22nd October 2009, 17:45
On Rumors of Nepali Maoists, Trotskyism and Socialism in One Country (http://mikeely.wordpress.com/2009/10/22/on-rumors-of-nepali-maoists-trotskyism-and-socialism-in-one-country/)

Posted on October 22, 2009

http://mikeely.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/marx_lenin_stalin_mao_prachanda_in_nepal.jpg?w=350 (http://mikeely.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/marx_lenin_stalin_mao_prachanda_in_nepal.jpg)Let's not lose a sense of the actual ideology of Nepali Maoists

By Nando Sims

A bit of a strange speculation has rippled through the online world of Trotskyism. It was triggered by the circulation of an article entitled “Communist Party of Nepal Recognises Role of Leon Trotsky (http://www.marxist.com/communist-party-nepal-recognises-role-of-trotsky.htm).” Its authors are listed as Pablo Sanchez and Kamred Hulaki.


In breathless tones, this piece claims that the world’s most prominent Maoist party has announced that Trotsky was right, and Stalin was wrong. The article’s opening paragraph reads:


“This summer The Red Spark [Rato Jhilko ...], a journal of the Communist Party of Nepal published an article by Baburam Bhattarai, which stated that, ‘Trotskyism has become more relevant than Stalinism to advance the cause of the proletariat’. This is the result of concrete historical experience that has revealed the real essence of Stalinism and vindicated the ideas of Leon Trotsky, in the case of Nepal in particular of the theory of the Permanent Revolution.” (from In Defense of Marxism, IDOM)


When we first received these claims (weeks ago) here at Kasama, we didn’t feel the need to post them or comment — since on the surface the various claims were hyped, false and even silly. But now this article from IDOM is apparently being taken seriously by some, so some comment is in order.
Just for starters: This piece does not even manage to get the name of the Maoist party right anywhere, including in its headline. There is no “Communist Party of Nepal” — as anyone familiar with Nepal knows. There are many parties with the word “Communist” in their name. The Maoist party is called the Unified Communist Party of Nepal (Maoist) — a fact apparently unfamiliar to the folks behind this IDOM article.


Such a error is not fatal in its own right — but it highlights that these authors are either remarkably unfamiliar with Nepali politics or else have a real indifference to the most basic facts. This ignorance marks the rest of the piece in less obvious ways.


Here is the heart of the matter:

The claims of this IDOM piece are based on a quote they have translated from an article written by Baburam Bhattarai, one of the most prominent leaders of the UCPN(M).

“Today, the globalization of imperialist capitalism has increased many-fold as compared to the period of the October Revolution. The development of information technology has converted the world into a global village. However, due to the unequal and extreme development inherent in capitalist imperialism this has created inequality between different nations. In this context, there is still (some) possibility of revolution in a single country similar to the October revolution; however, in order to sustain the revolution, we definitely need a global or at least a regional wave of revolution in a couple of countries. In this context, Marxist revolutionaries should recognize the fact that in the current context, Trotskyism has become more relevant than Stalinism to advance the cause of the proletariat”. (The Red Spark, July 2009, Issue 1, Page-10, our translation from Nepali language).
For starters, let us just say that we have no reason yet to accept this translation is accurate. It has emerged from marginal forces with an ax to grind — and their piece suggests (as i said) a militant indifference to facts.
The whole chatter pivots on one sentence above. Bhattarai may have said this, or he may not. He may have said something similar to this, but subtly different. We just don’t now at this point because we have no independent verification from the original Nepali. So we will discuss the quote — but note that both the citation and the translation needs to be confirmed (or modified) by much more reliable forces.


Look At the Context

If you read closely what Bhattarai is alleged to have said, you can see that the IDOM distorts this in some extreme ways. And it does so by ignoring what is actually being discussed and debated.


Here is that context: Nepal is one of the world’s poorest countries. It is landlocked. It has virtually no industry. And it is surrounded by two of the world’s largest countries (India and China). It is vulnerable to blockades. Its main natural resource (hydroelectric power) requires massive capital investment to exploit or export in any major way. And its lowland agricultural regions are very vulnerable to military occupation from India.
In that context, there is a debate within the Maoist party of Nepal over whether they can take a road of socialism in the current international climate (where there are no socialist countries and not yet a clear prospect of revolutionary victory within India over the short term).


They are debating whether to soon seize power, establish a peoples democracy, and take the socialist road. Or to postpone it, operate within a bourgeois democratic framework of post-monarchical Nepal, and solicit international investment in hyroelectric projects — and then, when a more favorable context develops internationally, to seize power and take the socialist road. One argument says it would be reckless and premature to go it alone in this context, the other says that waiting may mean the chance of revolution will slip away — and that the painstakingly gathered currently-existing revolutionary forces will be demoralized, dissipated, disappointed or even crushed.


The debate (in short) is over whether to draw out the current “transition” period — or to cut it short by preparing a seizure of power.


In that context, Bhattarai is associated with the line of extending the transition period — in hopes of having a more regional revolutionary process. He was also a major author of the whole 206 substage of “transition period” and the proposal for the 2006 negotiated ceasefire and political offensive.


So to be clear: what he is arguing for is the opposite of Permanent Revolution. And he is not making an argument that Trotsky was right in 1920 — but rather that major changes in the last decades mean that the old communist verdict (in favor of socialism in one country) may not apply today in some universal or mechanical way, and so Nepal’s situation should be thought through in light of current concrete conditions.


The Trotskyist theory of Permanent Revolution holds that one stage socialist revolution is the universal necessary model for overthrowing capitalism — including in poor agricultural third world countries. This theory of permanent revolution exists in sharp and direct opposition to the Maoist theory of New Democracy (two stage socialist revolution) in third world countries.
Bhattarai seems to arguing for drawing out the stages — and perhaps making some form of bourgeois democracy into its own extended indeterminate stage (preceding the transition to socialism). His argument is the opposite of Trotskyism.


So why would he quote Trotsky?

Bhattarai is raising the question of “socialism in one country” for fresh consideration.


In the Soviet Union, in the mid 1920s there was a debate over whether it was possible to take the socialist road in the former Russian empire. Trotsky said you could not, and instead needed the support of forces in the more advanced countries, and that you could not build socialism in one country. The Stalin-Bukharin forces argued that such support was not coming. The revolution in Germany had been defeated repeatedly. And so the Stalin-Bukharin forces argued that the Soviet Union had no choice but to proceed on the socialist road alone, if necessary, pending some new wave of world revolution in the future.


China and the Soviet Union were (after all) two of the very largest countries on earth — with large populations and many diverse resources for developing complex economies and for conducting credible military defense against reactionaries.


This previous has always begged the question: Is it possible to build “socialism in one country” universally? In all countries? What about very small, poor and isolated ones? Can one build socialism in just El Salvador? Or in Zimbabwe? Or Nepal? The previous answer was that they could integrate themselves into an existing socialist camp. But there is no such camp now. Is it the case that smaller countries now need regional revolutions to lay a sufficient basis for socialist transformation and economics?


And, in addition, there have been changes (as Bhattarai is arguing) in the world economy — as the circuits of production and exchange have internationalized in highly unprecedented ways. Is it possible to conceive of a socialist country today with the kind of the semi-isolated economy that was attempted in Russia and China?


In Nepal, there is for example the acute reality that they have one major national resource (hydroelectric power) and some potential for tourism — neither of which will develop if Nepal is cut off from neighbors and the world market. If Nepal take a socialist road that assumes a form of autarchy (isolation), what does that mean for its chances of advancing, and what does that mean for its internal political conditions. Is it possible to imagine a lively open society of debate if economically the whole is confined to subsistence agriculture by embargo? Or is it possible for the seizure of power in Nepal to be a kind of manifesto that draws forward positive conditions — and perhaps accelerates radical movements and changes in India?


So, in that difficult debate, Bhattarai is saying (in a provocative way) that it would be wrong to take Stalin’s 1920s position as some kind of universal verdict that applies in all places and all times. And that (ironically) he believes that some of the arguments made against socialism in one country (in the Soviet Union) may apply today to Nepal.


This is not (as the IDOM implies) some vindication of Trotsky’s historic role or core positions, but a consciously provocative way of arguing against dogmatism and mechanical thinking.


It is unusual for supporters of Mao to cite Trotsky in this way. But it is certainly not the case that if “XXX is mentioning YYY, he must be a closet YYY-ist.” Similarly when Chavez mentions Trotsky, (as he occasionally does) some of these same international Trotskyist forces chatter — thinking, in their dogmatic style, that this must mean Chavez too is a closet Trotskyist. The simple-mindedness of this speaks for itself.


In fact, some in the UCPN(M) have argued to debating these matters without clouding the issue by injecting Trotsky’s name. One Central Committee member Kushal Pradhan is quoted saying:


“If a simultaneous wave of revolution is necessary to sustain the revolution in each country and if such a position is in line with the Marxist-Leninist-Maoist thought, then there is no point in dragging Trotsky into this debate. Secondly, the idea of revolution in a single country belongs to Lenin; and Stalin created the structure of the first socialist state. Stalin might have made some mistakes, but he was a great Marxist and Leninist practitioner and his contribution should not be underestimated.” (The Red Guard, September 2009, cited by IDOM) (http://www.marxist.com/nepal-maoists-looking-for-new-strategic-direction.htm)

(http://www.marxist.com/nepal-maoists-looking-for-new-strategic-direction.htm)
And it is true that thinking in terms of regional revolution is quite compatable with Maoism and does not require some reference to Trotsky. (Just one historical example: In the 1970s, Mao urged the people of Indochina to view their revolutionary process as linked.)


This quote from Kushal Pradhan also confirms that the IDOM (and its headline) is simply wrong in implying that Bhattarai is somehow speaking for the“Communist Party of Nepal” in all this. He is speaking as part of a debate within the UCPN(M) — and his views on this (and certainly any quip about Trotsky-Stalin) is not some reversal of views by his party-as-a-party.
It is well known that among the Maoists, the Nepali party has had the most harshly critical stand on Stalin — in particular in their willingness to move away from assumptions of a Soviet-style one-party state. But there is no indication (zero) that they have any inclination toward the core concepts of Trotskyism. .


* * * * * * * *


At the risk of stating the obvious:
There has been a flurry (in some corners) of accepting the IDOM report at face value. And for some it seems like wishful thinking: I.e. some trotskyists see this as a vindinciation of their own defense of Trotsky’s 1920s arguments. Other political forces (who have sought to merge Trotskyism and Maoism in various ways) have seen this as a vindication of their politics. And so on.


It needs to be pointed out that people should not be so gullible or superficial. Should we really ourselves descend to the mindless world of 10-second soundbites — flung around without thought or context?


Bhattarai’s remarks were taken out of the context of an intense real-world debate (a debate in which Trotskyism and Permanent Revolution are NOT one of the significant poles).


More to the point: Revolutions produce clouds of disinformation and false claims. And too many people seem willing to pick this or that claim from the bourgeois press or other sources (in this case IDOM) — and spin a chatter of superficial speculation. Is that wise? Is it helpful? Does it help anyone understand what is actually going on?

blake 3:17
25th October 2009, 09:15
A thoughtful response from the Kasama site. I agree with quoted comments that if the Nepalese comrades are engaging with Trotsky's thought it shows signs of some imagination. Despite his criticisms of Trotsky and Trotskyism he does write, "And I have (all my life) carefully read his [Trotsky's] main works, theories and biographies." And there's reason for that -- Trotsky lived a quite amazing life, made immense contributions to practical socialism, was a beautiful writer, and developed and articulated analyses of social and political phenomenon as they were happening.



Heresy: On New Demarcations & Coherent Theory (http://mikeely.wordpress.com/2009/10/24/on-demarcations-and-new-coherent-theory/)

Posted by Mike E (http://mikeely.wordpress.com) on October 24, 2009

http://mikeely.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/burning_the_witches_heresy.jpg?w=350 (http://mikeely.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/burning_the_witches_heresy.jpg) Demarcations and differences do not require treating others like heretics from some true religion

By Mike Ely
I’d like to build upon what Tell No Lies just said (http://mikeely.wordpress.com/2009/10/22/on-rumors-of-nepali-maoists-trotskyism-and-socialism-in-one-country/#comment-18493) in our discussion of the mentioning of Trotsky by one of Nepal’s leading Maoists.
First, the point in all of this is that we need to find a way to be clearly, shockingly revolutionary, but not sectarian. This is a challenge (in a left where anti-sectarianism is the banner of reformism). I think it is possible, and I think many of us are eager for it.
Starkly non-sectarian, fiercely revolutionary. With all that this implies and demands.
TNL said (excerpted from among other things):
“I am quite pleased to see Bhattarai quoting Trotsky, if only to shake up the dogmatists. … I’d love to see a similar openness to the full range of heretics from Gramsci through Fanon and beyond. Being “on guard” against heretical ideas is deadly to revolutionary theory… A genuinely scientific outlook is unafraid of heresy and knows that seemingly disproven ideas come back to life all the time in the light of new experiences or theoretical advances in other areas. The Trotskyist critique of building socialism in one country was problematic more because it was politically paralyzing than because it was analytically wrong about the limits of what could be achieved and its revival in a much smaller country in a more globally integrated world economy makes complete sense to me.”
I think there are a number of sides to approach here..... Skippng towards the end

5) On the question of Trotsky in particular.
I have always been against the demonization of trotsky (as an agent, anti-christ whatever). He was a revolutionary leader in the Soviet Union who make significant contributions (from the 1905 Soviet to the creation of the red army). And I have (all my life) carefully read his main works, theories and biographies.
But….

I have to say of the various communist theoretical and political figures, Trotsky’s work has not struck me as particularly valuable.
Trotsky seems to embody a particular strain of European socialism that is even more inclined toward inevitabilism, reductionism, teleology, objective idealism, theory of the productive forces, workerist economism, euro-chauvinism etc. than several other forces that emerged out of the Comintern.
Many of the features of Stalin’s philosophy and ideology that we criticize seem even more pronounced Trotsky’s.
Also I think that Trotsky’s specific politics have been fairly discredited by history (in a way laid out in a Nando essay “History’s cruelty toward Trotskyism (http://www.revleft.com/vb/../2009/01/05/nando-historys-cruelty-towards-trotskyism/)” — including particularly his specific theory of “what went wrong” in the USSR.
Here are the theories and verdicts that I have seen as central to this political current… and I list them because (on balance) I think they are not correct.

In my opinion Trotskyism is defined by a web of core ideological and political positions (despite the diversity of today’s declining and loosely Trotskyist trends.)

Permanent Revolution — i.e.an opposition to a view of communists leading anti-feudal antiimperialist revolution in the poorer third world countries (taking the socialist road through two-stage New Democratic revolution)
Theory of Degenerate Workers State and its conception of a bureaucracy (as a stratum) playing an increasingly self-conscious and autonomous role in reversal of revolutionary politics
Theory of Deformed Workers State (which negates the need for a trotskyist party, and posits a theory of “revolution with a blunt instrument”)
a particularly idiosyncratic and often highly sectarian view of what vanguard parties are, and the role of historical programmatic “continuity” in their development.
Trotsky’s transitional programme (i.e. a particular view of mass work in non-revolutoinary times that i perceive as classic economism)
a particular view of socialism (assumptions about world system, political forms, prerequisite productive basis etc.)
a developed theory of the productive forces (i.e. I believe Trotskyism shares with both Stalin’s politics and then later revisionist politics a mechanical view of the interaction of productive forces and politics).
a particularly pronounced euro-centric view of both the working class and the worldwide transition to socialism
A view of the peasantry and anti-feudal tasks in the world revolutionary process that has led to an underestimation of the anti-colonial revolutions of the past 50 years (and of the remaining anti-feudal tasks of revolution in countries like Nepal, Peru and many parts of India.
a particular view of working class united front (based on a time-specific analysis of the communist-socdem hostility in Germany) and (as part of that) an idiosyncratic view of fascism (very different from the later Comintern’s analysis of “openly terroristic dictatorship of the most reactionary sections of the bourgeoisie”)
There are some subordinate ideological and political issues:

Trotsky’s view of art and culture
Trotsky’s theory of military doctrine (very different from Mao’s)
A highly mechanistic and undialectical theory of “parallelogram of forces”
A view of History (with a capital “H”) which protects and promotes a lot of the Hegelian teleology within Marxism.
I list these things because I think we should allow space to permit discussion of these things. The days are long gone when it was a norm to shun Trotskyism, dismiss its views without engagement or demonize those who merely mentioned Trotsky’s name. (That too is a line question, and if more breaks are needed, then fine.)
But I also feel that, in those discussions we will have, I will find myself arguing against the core views that have defined Trotskyism since Trotsky — simply because i think that this current basically got the key things wrong.

Die Neue Zeit
25th October 2009, 09:36
There has been a flurry (in some corners) of accepting the IDOM report at face value. And for some it seems like wishful thinking: I.e. some trotskyists see this as a vindinciation of their own defense of Trotsky’s 1920s arguments. Other political forces (who have sought to merge Trotskyism and Maoism in various ways) have seen this as a vindication of their politics. And so on.

The bulk of the blog is a mere elaboration of my one-liner on the situation in Nepal depending on the situation in India.

Now, what is important is that this blog understates part of this paragraph: "other political forces who have sought to merge Trotskyism and Maoism in various ways."

Saorsa
25th October 2009, 09:43
The bulk of the blog is a mere elaboration of my one-liner on the situation in Nepal depending on the situation in India.

It's really not.

blake 3:17
25th October 2009, 09:54
The big question, and why this discussion matters, is socialism in Nepal possible?

The closest analogy I can think of is Bolivia, where the MAS government is trying to implement socialist measures and having tremendous difficulty doing so. Like Nepal, it is land locked and very poor. As I heard one of the leaders in the MAS, you can't redistribute wealth until you have it. Bolivia has the big advantage of being connected to the ALBA countries, most importantly Venezuela.

pranabjyoti
25th October 2009, 10:30
The big question, and why this discussion matters, is socialism in Nepal possible?
The closest analogy I can think of is Bolivia, where the MAS government is trying to implement socialist measures and having tremendous difficulty doing so. Like Nepal, it is land locked and very poor. As I heard one of the leaders in the MAS, you can't redistribute wealth until you have it. Bolivia has the big advantage of being connected to the ALBA countries, most importantly Venezuela.
There is another very important point. Nepal is an Asian country and Bolivia is a Latin American country. Bolivia don't have fight and destroy feudal legacies like most of Asian Countries like Nepal.

dez
25th October 2009, 17:58
There is another very important point. Nepal is an Asian country and Bolivia is a Latin American country. Bolivia don't have fight and destroy feudal legacies like most of Asian Countries like Nepal.

You might want to confirm that fact.

Labor Shall Rule
25th October 2009, 18:34
You might want to confirm that fact.

Nepal is a landlocked nation, and it's also incredibly underdeveloped. Bolivia, unlike Nepal, has vast lithium and uranium reserves in their high-mountain plateaus. The largest source of capital in Nepal, on the other hand, comes from tourism, and the majority of the labor force is employed in agriculture.

It's obvious that the Maobadi are not depending on imminent revolution because they know that the socialist movement is relatively weak on their subcontinent, and they know they are wedged between two superpowers that can intervene at any attempt at a countrywide seizure of power.

Q
26th October 2009, 09:30
They are debating whether to soon seize power, establish a peoples democracy, and take the socialist road. Or to postpone it, operate within a bourgeois democratic framework of post-monarchical Nepal, and solicit international investment in hyroelectric projects — and then, when a more favorable context develops internationally, to seize power and take the socialist road. One argument says it would be reckless and premature to go it alone in this context, the other says that waiting may mean the chance of revolution will slip away — and that the painstakingly gathered currently-existing revolutionary forces will be demoralized, dissipated, disappointed or even crushed.Ah, the crux of the matter. There has been loads of discussions on stageism (= first developing capitalism then, at some "favorable" point in the future, go for socialism). What apparently lacks in the understanding of our stalinist and maoist comrades is still that capitalism offers no way forward. China would be my obvious example at just how strong this strategy fails: the Chinese regime, by developing capitalism, is no longer progressive in any sense of the word. All the social gains of the revolution, limited as they were, have been revoked and destroyed. I would say that the Chinese regime currently is vastly reactionary indeed.

The point of Permanent Revolution is the realisation that not realpolitik and conforming one self to the standards of capitalism is the way forward, but that proposing a programme in which the world working class, unrestricted by national borders, will take power as the highest expression of its self-emancipation. As such Nepal could be a beacon if it were to introduce actual workers democracy, toward India, China and far beyond.

Stageism follows the same logic as reformism in that it conforms itself to "capitalist reality", but is in fact several degrees worse as it plays the role of betrayal towards the working masses. Is this what the Nepali fighters have died for during their decade long peoples war? To replace one regime of feudal-capitalism with that of "red"-capitalism only to be replaced by socialism at some point in a rosy future? Instead of solely basing itself on the collective power of the working class internationally and base a strategy on that prospect, the maoist answer is to just be "realistic" and wait for better times. A truly dead end if there ever was one.

FSL
26th October 2009, 10:57
The point of Permanent Revolution is the realisation that not realpolitik and conforming one self to the standards of capitalism is the way forward, but that proposing a programme in which the world working class, unrestricted by national borders, will take power as the highest expression of its self-emancipation. As such Nepal could be a beacon if it were to introduce actual workers democracy, toward India, China and far beyond.

Stageism follows the same logic as reformism in that it conforms itself to "capitalist reality"



The real possibilities of collectivization are determined, not by the depth of the impasse in the villages and not by the administrative energy of the government, but primarily by the existing productive resources – that is, the ability of the industries to furnish large-scale agriculture with the requisite machinery. These material conditions were lacking. The collective farms were set up with an equipment suitable in the main only for small-scale farming. In these conditions an exaggeratedly swift collectivization took the character of an economic adventure

But even so, collectivization could and should have assumed a more reasonable tempo and more deliberated forms. Having in its hands both the power and the industries, the bureaucracy could have regulated the process without carrying the nation to the edge of disaster. They could have, and should have, adopted tempos better corresponding to the material and moral resources of the country.
“Under favorable circumstances, internal and external,” wrote the émigré organ of the “Left Opposition” in 1930, “the material-technical conditions of agriculture can in the course of some 10 of 15 years be transformed to the bottom, and provide the productive basis for collectivization

What Trotsky wrote on collectivization.


Trotsky objected, and rightly so, to the catastrophic collectivizations carried out in a beaurucratic manner against the peasantry


How a Trotskyist commented on the above.



You may want to think again who's reformist.

Q
26th October 2009, 12:22
I'm not sure what collectivisation in 1930's Russia has to do with the revolutionary tasks of Nepal today. I mean, sure, the agrarian question is an aspect of the revolution in how to solve feudal land distribution and instead free the workers so they can become involved in the development of society. But I didn't at all deal with the agrarian question in a specific sense, but more with the tasks of instating workers democracy and that role that it can play in being a beacon for the working class internationally, thusly furthering the revolution.

So, besides a petty sectarian slur, what was your point exactly FSL?

FSL
26th October 2009, 13:25
I'm not sure what collectivisation in 1930's Russia has to do with the revolutionary tasks of Nepal today. I mean, sure, the agrarian question is an aspect of the revolution in how to solve feudal land distribution and instead free the workers so they can become involved in the development of society. But I didn't at all deal with the agrarian question in a specific sense, but more with the tasks of instating workers democracy and that role that it can play in being a beacon for the working class internationally, thusly furthering the revolution.

So, besides a petty sectarian slur, what was your point exactly FSL?


Petty sectarian slurs just make my day.



The point of Permanent Revolution is the realisation that not realpolitik and conforming one self to the standards of capitalism is the way forward


The real possibilities of collectivization are determined, not by the depth of the impasse in the villages and not by the administrative energy of the government, but primarily by the existing productive resources – that is, the ability of the industries to furnish large-scale agriculture with the requisite machinery. These material conditions were lacking

“Under favorable circumstances, internal and external,” wrote the émigré organ of the “Left Opposition” in 1930, “the material-technical conditions of agriculture can in the course of some 10 of 15 years be transformed to the bottom, and provide the productive basis for collectivization


I've narrowed down my quotes a bit to make it easier for you to isolate my point. A small hint, it hasn't much to do with the agrarian question in Nepal or the USSR but with who puts the advancement of working class revolution at the top of his priorities and who might be guilty of what is accused here


What apparently lacks in the understanding of our stalinist and maoist comrades is still that capitalism offers no way forward.

red cat
26th October 2009, 13:34
Stageism follows the same logic as reformism in that it conforms itself to "capitalist reality", but is in fact several degrees worse as it plays the role of betrayal towards the working masses. Is this what the Nepali fighters have died for during their decade long peoples war? To replace one regime of feudal-capitalism with that of "red"-capitalism only to be replaced by socialism at some point in a rosy future? Instead of solely basing itself on the collective power of the working class internationally and base a strategy on that prospect, the maoist answer is to just be "realistic" and wait for better times. A truly dead end if there ever was one.

Are you familiar with the concept of new-democracy; what you are terming as "red capitalism"? And exactly how do you propose to handle the situation if both India and China attack Nepal?

chegitz guevara
26th October 2009, 20:10
And exactly how do you propose to handle the situation if both India and China attack Nepal?

I can take one or two of them. You'll have to handle the other two billion.

Seriously, what are we going to do?

Revolution is infectious. The imperialists were right about the domino theory. When one people have a revolution, it spreads. The communists in Nepal need to think like the Bolsheviks and remember that they aren't just responsible for the revolution in Nepal, but like all of us, they are responsible for the whole world. As Lenin said, we make the revolution in Russia for Germany. In Nepal, they need to make the revolution in Nepal for India.

But that's easy for me to say, here a planet in between us. It would be much more difficult for me if I were in the revolution, with the lives of millions of Nepalis at stake.

spiltteeth
26th October 2009, 20:17
Petty sectarian slurs just make my day.







I've narrowed down my quotes a bit to make it easier for you to isolate my point. A small hint, it hasn't much to do with the agrarian question in Nepal or the USSR but with who puts the advancement of working class revolution at the top of his priorities and who might be guilty of what is accused here

I submit that Nepal needs capital, not capitalism; it is incredibly a tricky situation.

N3wday
27th October 2009, 23:38
The communists in Nepal need to think like the Bolsheviks and remember that they aren't just responsible for the revolution in Nepal, but like all of us, they are responsible for the whole world.

By "the communists" do you mean the rightwing of the UCPN? Because there are in fact many communists in the UCPN arguing for for insurrection as soon as possible. Spreading their base areas into the cities through tactical compromise was brilliant. They are now in a much stronger position to make revolution and hold the country.

But, that's not going happen through will power... That's how you appear to treat it.

As this article points out Bhattarai represents the rightwing of the UCPN, and is arguing for an extension of the tactical compromise, perhaps to the point where it will no longer be "tactical" in any practical sense. But, the other wings of the party have been gaining traction. This was represented through the their convention when Kiran, Bhattarai, and another member of the UCPN were all appointed co-chairman, where previously it was only Bhattarai. This is of great significance.

These two essays are interesting.

interview with Basanta - http://www.wprmbritain.org/?p=914
interview with Bhattarai - http://www.wprmbritain.org/?p=926

chegitz guevara
28th October 2009, 01:24
I don't think that was what I was saying at all. Look, there are really two possibilities here: they make the revolution or they don't. If they go for it and win, they are in an impossible situation, surrounded by powerful hostile countries and not even sufficient capital to build their own roads. If they don't make the revolution, then capitalism's hand gets strengthened, it regroups, and ultimately smashes the Maobadi.

Personally, I think the cessation of the military struggle to build contacts with the urban masses was f***ing brilliant. I'm not one of those who think that the CPN(M) should have just gone for it. I don't think Prachandra is leading a revisionist line.

What I am saying is that those who are worried about India and China need to keep in mind that if the revolution in Nepal is successful, that will give strength to revolutionary forces in India and elsewhere, which might make it possible for the Nepalese revolution to survive being crushed between two elephants. Revolutionary success is always risky and never guaranteed. It's always dangerous, and we can't let those dangers hold us back from doing what is needed.

Yes, they may lose, but it's better to try an lose than not try and lose. That's what I'm saying.

dez
4th November 2009, 21:18
Nepal is a landlocked nation, and it's also incredibly underdeveloped. Bolivia, unlike Nepal, has vast lithium and uranium reserves in their high-mountain plateaus. The largest source of capital in Nepal, on the other hand, comes from tourism, and the majority of the labor force is employed in agriculture.

It's obvious that the Maobadi are not depending on imminent revolution because they know that the socialist movement is relatively weak on their subcontinent, and they know they are wedged between two superpowers that can intervene at any attempt at a countrywide seizure of power.

I wasnt talking about Bolivian or nepali geography, and I thought it was pretty obvious.
I was talking about feudal legacies. Although bolivia never really experienced a proper feudalism, caudillism is still rampant and is the main opposing force to the socialist movement. I recall watching a video of jr. caudillos marching and claiming they would have morales' head.

Yehuda Stern
5th November 2009, 22:42
Just like with Chavez, people are mystified by statements made by Nepalese Maoists because they take every sentence of theirs to be part of some clear, unified political worldview rather than an expression of the eclecticism which is characteristic of such movements, whose leaders aim fundamentally to defend capitalism but must also appeal to their mass base of workers, peasants etc. who genuinely want a socialist revolution.

I think that IDOM and Kasama are two sides of the same coin in this matter: IDOM habitually tries to seize on any radical-sounding sentence of every politician it supports, from left laborites to third world nationalists, to justify its class-collaborationist support of them, while Kasama tries (in an incredibly lame way - "we have no reason yet to accept this translation is accurate", haha) to deny that some Maoists did make a partial endorsement of Trotsky, probably due to pressure from their proletarian base.

gorillafuck
5th November 2009, 22:59
while Kasama tries (in an incredibly lame way - "we have no reason yet to accept this translation is accurate", haha) to deny that some Maoists did make a partial endorsement of Trotsky, probably due to pressure from their proletarian base.
What makes you think the proletariat in Nepal are all Trotskyists?

Saorsa
6th November 2009, 04:36
Actually Yehuda I very, very much doubt that to the grassroots cadres of the UCPN (M), out of all the myriad issues before them, an endorsement of Trotskyism by their leaders is a high priority.

ls
6th November 2009, 07:18
Yes, the UCPN (Maoist) are Trotskyist-Maoists. Really, who cares what "great man" a movement does or does not associate with?

It doesn't fucking matter, what matters is the movement's politics, more than a couple of more traditional Communists, Anarchos and Trotskyites have given the movement their firm support, which is of course hilarious as you can expect it from many in all the above currents, seeing as so many on the left fight internationalism as hard as possible. Yep well done to them for a firm betrayal of workers.

I thought that people from the ISL might be a little bit better than other trots, appears not.

Crux
6th November 2009, 12:24
I thought that people from the ISL might be a little bit better than other trots[...].
Why?

Yehuda Stern
8th November 2009, 00:01
To all concerned: I never said that all or even a significant number of Nepali workers are Trotskyists. I would imagine that only a small minority would even consider itself to be to some degree Trotskyist. But during revolutions, working class people generally develop an interest in revolutionary politics and history, and this means an interest in Trotsky too. Otherwise I see no reason why Maoists, who in any given day would consider Trotsky as nothing more than a "counterrevolutionary wrecker", would say anything positive about him.

As for the ISL being better than other trot groups, we really are. I just don't see why you would say that, ls, as you have been habitually hostile to our politics. Nor do I see how my comment does anything to change the validity of that statement.

Saorsa
8th November 2009, 00:20
Otherwise I see no reason why Maoists, who in any given day would consider Trotsky as nothing more than a "counterrevolutionary wrecker", would say anything positive about him.

I like to think that the international communist movement is less consumed by internal conflict than it was a few decades ago. The Nepali Maoists wouldn't refer to Trotsky as just a 'wrecker', they've shown themselves to be very nondogmatic and have also made references to Rosa Luxemburg and others in the past.



As for the ISL being better than other trot groups, we really are.

I love you Yehuda :lol:

scarletghoul
8th November 2009, 00:25
Really, to suggest that the Maoist leadership is somehow trying to opportunistically appeal to Trotskyist opinions in the masses (which have shown no indication of existing) is just pathetic. It ignores a few things: 1. that the Maoists have never made concessions to appeal to other strands of communism. There are a whole bunch of rival commie parties in Nepal. The UCPN(M) wins people over by showing their success in making revolution, not pretending to be something they're not. 2. There are much much more relevent types of communism active in Nepal than Trotskyism.

Does it not occur to you that Bhattarai maybe sees Trotsky's stance somewhat relevent to Nepal's current situation? That the Maoists are capable of putting petty historical personality clashes aside to instead consider points of practical importance? This last concept may be difficult for you to get your trotskyite head around, but please try, man.

red cat
8th November 2009, 00:30
I like to think that the international communist movement is less consumed by internal conflict than it was a few decades ago. The Nepali Maoists wouldn't refer to Trotsky as just a 'wrecker', they've shown themselves to be very nondogmatic and have also made references to Rosa Luxemburg and others in the past.




In general Maoists hold that Rosa Luxemburg was a communist, don't they? She never got to see how the USSR progressed under Lenin's policies for long. She also attempted to make a proletarian revolution in her country, and that makes her pretty much a communist.

Andrei Kuznetsov
8th November 2009, 00:38
I consider Rosa Luxembourg a Communist, or at least someone we Maoists- as anti-bureaucrats who constantly want to unleash the masses into taking control of society- should look back to and learn from. She's cool in my book.

I myself think Communists should expand beyond the "5 Greats" of Marx-Engels-Lenin-Stalin-Mao. I think we have to learn from Rosa, from Che, from Connolly, Althusser, Badiou, Zizek, the Frankfurt School... The list of schools of thought we need to reach out to are vast.

scarletghoul
8th November 2009, 00:42
Yeah, there's a long list of awesome people and movements that have influenced my personal views and I'm sure there's loads more I've yet to read. I still haven't read any Badiou yet, and don't know much about him. Can you recommend anything?

Andrei Kuznetsov
8th November 2009, 01:03
I loved his works on Sarkozy and St. Paul. I've mainly read his short essays and interviews, but those are the two books I've read.

spiltteeth
8th November 2009, 01:20
Yeah, there's a long list of awesome people and movements that have influenced my personal views and I'm sure there's loads more I've yet to read. I still haven't read any Badiou yet, and don't know much about him. Can you recommend anything?

Yea, Badiou's work is highly theorhetical, but here's some easy basic stuff :

Comrade Zero's sums up Badiou :
http://comradezero.blogspot.com/2008/03/maoism-of-alain-badiou.html


Kasama had a descent very simple article on him, the comments at the end are enlightening :
http://mikeely.wordpress.com/2009/04/05/nando-sims-sparks-over-the-very-idea-of-communists-engaging-ideas/

http://stefandav.blogspot.com/2009/04/badiou-101-for-rcpusa-kasama.html

For a more technical full approach of is politics :http://culturemachine.tees.ac.uk/cmach/backissues/j004/Articles/hallward.htm

Youtube also has some stuff, here's a good one if you can get past the accent :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-gjz2yORJk

ls
8th November 2009, 22:53
As for the ISL being better than other trot groups, we really are.

Yes, which is why I bothered to call you out.


I just don't see why you would say that, ls, as you have been habitually hostile to our politics. Nor do I see how my comment does anything to change the validity of that statement.

I don't think I've been "habitually hostile" to your politics actually, in fact I think I've praised the ISL on a number of occasions for their positions regarding zionism and anti-imperialism in general. Of course, I don't agree on every point, but then again I barely ever agree with any group on every single point.

Yehuda Stern
2nd December 2009, 10:24
I love you Yehuda :lol:

Shh, not in front of everybody...


Does it not occur to you that Bhattarai maybe sees Trotsky's stance somewhat relevent to Nepal's current situation?

If I thought Bhattarai was a revolutionary looking for a way to advance a proletarian revolution rather than block it, I might. As it stands it's much more likely that it's just a way to answer questions that party rank and filers have been raising.


This last concept may be difficult for you to get your trotskyite head around

Stings about intellect are better used by those who have one...