Galloway "ban gta4"

[RED ARMY FACTION]

Galoway said he hates anything that glorifies gratuotous violence, calls for gta4 to be banned on talksport on you tube, do you agree.
I guess if you thought i was being slightly racist for my questions oin rap i must be anti digital character for this question:)

[Cohacq]

I do not agree, as banning it would limit the freedom of expression and open the door for even more bans based on conservative moral values.

[bricolage]

Once again we get another gem from the treasure trove of Galloway the condescending moralist... I hate this man.

The argument is pretty similar to the rap one, people that watch/listen to violence are not automatically made violent because of it. The violence that comes out is a product of the material conditions they live in and the culture of violence that is bred, not by games or music, but by an inherently violent societal system. For every kid that plays gta there are thousands more who watch police smack people about their neighbourhood or that see bombs on the front of papers in the newsagents. This is where the violence comes from.

[RED ARMY FACTION]

Actually a boy did say he played the game, which he wanted to act out and he slit that mans throat in london.
The sick fucks who killed bulger saw it on a film.
If we did not become influenced by what we see we would never learn anything or come to understand things, so if a kid sees violence, rape etc on a regular and casual basis, he is more likely to feel violence is normal.
like in ireland, the conflict was so fierce that even now the conflict is over kids in some areas still go out at night to throw stones petrol bombs, then go to sleep in the daytime.
when extremes are normalized they become acceptable.

[Q]

Actually a boy did say he played the game, which he wanted to act out and he slit that mans throat in london.
The sick fucks who killed bulger saw it on a film.
If we did not become influenced by what we see we would never learn anything or come to understand things, so if a kid sees violence, rape etc on a regular and casual basis, he is more likely to feel violence is normal.
like in ireland, the conflict was so fierce that even now the conflict is over kids in some areas still go out at night to throw stones petrol bombs, then go to sleep in the daytime.
when extremes are normalized they become acceptable.
Fact of the matter is that in our tv-culture violence has become very normal for the last few decades. One game more or less is not going to make a lot of difference. And has this culture created a warzone in our neighbourhood? Despite the media blowing up any incident, this is not the case.

Also, claiming that games and tv shows by themselves turn people into killing machines is absurd. Actual social causes like poverty, joblessness, exclusion, etc. are far more important causes I think.

[RED ARMY FACTION]

Fact of the matter is that in our tv-culture violence has become very normal for the last few decades. One game more or less is not going to make a lot of difference. And has this culture created a warzone in our neighbourhood? Despite the media blowing up any incident, this is not the case.

Also, claiming that games and tv shows by themselves turn people into killing machines is absurd. Actual social causes like poverty, joblessness, exclusion, etc. are far more important causes I think.

this is for most people.
but some mentally unstable children can become physcos from exposure to extreme violence in tv fil ps games.
not every person is politically active, they dont focus their hate on capitalism, as they dont understand, so they dont feel part of society, they dont want to change the society, so to take their isolation out they become infatuated with violent stimulation.

[Killfacer]

Actually a boy did say he played the game, which he wanted to act out and he slit that mans throat in london.
The sick fucks who killed bulger saw it on a film.
If we did not become influenced by what we see we would never learn anything or come to understand things, so if a kid sees violence, rape etc on a regular and casual basis, he is more likely to feel violence is normal.
like in ireland, the conflict was so fierce that even now the conflict is over kids in some areas still go out at night to throw stones petrol bombs, then go to sleep in the daytime.
when extremes are normalized they become acceptable.

Don't give me this daily mail bullshit. The majority of people can happily play games in which you batter innocent individuals to death without then going out an reinacting it. Just because one nutter plays it and goes out and acts it out, it does not mean the game should be bloody banned.

[fidzboi]

How about banning George Galloway? I think that would be of a much greater common good than the banning of a videogame which has not produced an army of young mercenaries, and indeed already carries age restrictions which theoretically prohibit the young from being influenced by it.

[RED ARMY FACTION]

Don't give me this daily mail bullshit. The majority of people can happily play games in which you batter innocent individuals to death without then going out an reinacting it. Just because one nutter plays it and goes out and acts it out, it does not mean the game should be bloody banned.

exactly MOST.

[Holden Caulfield]

Gallow way can get fucked I've just killed Ray, the end is near I sense

[Philosophical Materialist]

Same old moral panic.

In the 1880s, bourgeois moralists in Britain demanded an end to "penny dreadfuls", these were books with sensational violent storylines aimed at the mass of working class people. The bourgeoisie demanded that these be banned for having an unhealthy effect on the working classes.

There was a great deal of literature written about the supposed effects of US gangster movies on British youths in the 1930s.

Issues about video game violence have been with us since the 1990s. I think that violent films, games and books won't affect you unless you're already inclined to such tendencies. Otherwise a generation of young adults would have spent all their time jumping on mushrooms etc.

[Holden Caulfield]

On a serious note I don't buy into what he is saying.

if people are so unstable, because of other conditions, that GTA triggers a killing spree or violent behaviour its not the fault of the trigger. If it wasn't GTA it would be a movie, or Catcher in the Rhy (Mark Chapman), or a Beatles Song (Charles Manson), or the Bible (loads of crazy fools) etc etc

[NecroCommie]

I am indeed disturbed by the decadent values of the mainstream western culture. Banning individual games or movies does not help in anyway though. Art is the manifestation of it's culture, not the other way around. Banning somehing simply causes unwarranted angst among the people, which is not necessary for any goal. Truly progressive actions in this matter would be actions that somehow reformed the western culture itself.

[fidzboi]

Truly progressive actions in this matter would be actions that somehow reformed the western culture itself.


I think 'Truly progressive actions' in matters such as these recognises the fundamental difference between offense and harm, as in we support the freedom to do everything which injures no one else. In cultural terms, that precipitates a position that stands opposed to those who argue that culture, particularly the parts that are seen as offensive or in some way loosely linked to some perceived harm, should be regulated or, as you put it, 'reformed'.

Therefore restrictions that are placed on what we are allowed to watch, play, consume, etc., etc., should be recognised for what they are: reactionary attempts to moderate the freedom of individuals, that seek to create a dominant cultural form that fundamentally limits human expression. In this case, given Galloway's religious convictions, this is little more than an attempt to impose a Christian moral programme that no radical should support.

[RED ARMY FACTION]

you dont have to be christian to have moral values.
people who dont beleive in god can be opposed to abortion

[Axle]

This is the same old crap that's been going on for years. They're looking for a scapegoat to why our "morals alre in decline". They pulled this kind of thing with jazz, comic books, heavy metal, rap, and about a hundred other video games.

Its always something associated with the younger generations as a means of control.

[Pirate Utopian]

Galoway said he hates anything that glorifies gratuotous violence, calls for gta4 to be banned on talksport on you tube, do you agree.
Galloway is a conservative moron.
Videogames are just that... games.


I guess if you thought i was being slightly racist for my questions oin rap i must be anti digital character for this question:)
Oh you poor victim. :rolleyes:


you dont have to be christian to have moral values.
people who dont beleive in god can be opposed to abortion
And you can apparently be preachy bugger who wants to ban anything "nasty".

Tell me, do you believe abortions are "immoral"?

[RED ARMY FACTION]

i do not beleive they are immoral, but i beleive a baby is still a proletariat and therefor deserves to live, not be killed because its mother cannot afoord to have it due to pressures of capitalism.
yet when yopu said on a post you lied to a girl telling her you couldnt get pregnant if you were both virgins and then telling her it would be ok to have an aboprtion is disgusting.
i do not mind abortion, but people who use it as a form of contreception and have loads are immoral, they should just buy a fucking condom.

[#FF0000]

OP, the problem wasn't with racism when you were talking about rap music and violence. The problem is that it is fucking stupid to, in the midst of a bunch of terribly negative social conditions, even suggest that rap music is a major problem, or even a problem at all.

RAF, do you think we should ban this music and these games?

EDIT:

i do not beleive they are immoral, but i beleive a baby is still a proletariat and therefor deserves to live, not be killed because its mother cannot afoord to have it due to pressures of capitalism.
yet when yopu said on a post you lied to a girl telling her you couldnt get pregnant if you were both virgins and then telling her it would be ok to have an aboprtion is disgusting.
i do not mind abortion, but people who use it as a form of contreception and have loads are immoral, they should just buy a fucking condom.


I was waiting for this and I am thrilled.

[Pirate Utopian]

i do not beleive they are immoral, but i beleive a baby is still a proletariat and therefor deserves to live, not be killed because its mother cannot afoord to have it due to pressures of capitalism.
They are not babies, they are embryos and it's not killing them as they are barely alive.


yet when yopu said on a post you lied to a girl telling her you couldnt get pregnant if you were both virgins and then telling her it would be ok to have an aboprtion is disgusting.
:confused: What? I said what? where?

[RED ARMY FACTION]

no not at all, but to be honest most genuine proletarians cant afford them anyway, myself included.
But when i had a ps3 before i sold it, i did think the way the working class are portrayed on GTA is degrading making us all aout to be morons.
the fact niko makes remarks like "capitalism is a dirty buisness" and is only doing it because he was tricked by his cousin is a refreshing storyline.
Although the IRA guy who injects heroin is british propoganda

[RED ARMY FACTION]

on that thread called how do i get this girl to like me

[Pirate Utopian]

no not at all, but to be honest most genuine proletarians cant afford them anyway, myself included.
But when i had a ps3 before i sold it, i did think the way the working class are portrayed on GTA is degrading making us all aout to be morons.
Have you ever even played a GTA game?


Although the IRA guy who injects heroin is british propoganda
It's an American game!!!

[Pirate Utopian]

on that thread called how do i get this girl to like me
My advice was to piss on someone's bed to get them to like you.
I know you are too fucking stupid to read, but make a little effort.

[RED ARMY FACTION]

the makers are fucking britishhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

[#FF0000]

RAF, define "proletarian" for us please.

[RED ARMY FACTION]

a member of the lower class who works for a wage and dosent have the means of production

[#FF0000]

a member of the lower class who works for a wage and dosent have the means of production

Oh so owning a game machine doesn't have anything to do with it then.

And babies aren't proletarians.

:mellow:

[RED ARMY FACTION]

how so, because they are newborn?

[RED ARMY FACTION]

do you advocate infacide

[Pirate Utopian]

Infanticide? is that what you consider abortion to be?

[RED ARMY FACTION]

no i am asking him does he believe in infancide aswell

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

The issue here is that like many fake leftists who the left has far too much love for ,Galloway has decided that the masses of people cannot be trusted with violent media and that it will turn them into wild animals. If the lefitsts here think banning GTA and rap is for the working classes own good to stop them from turning into barbarians then I seriously doubt they think the working class can run soctiey for itself and I strongly suspect the support a group of hacks running society for the working classes own good.

[RED ARMY FACTION]

they cant if all they see is capitalism consumerism in films, on TV games.
If communism triumphed globally, would people still be watching get rich or die trying.
Wouldnt to eradicate capitalism from all aspects of life, or would we still watch capitalistic programs.
I would i am sure, miss tv and rap and video games, but if we are striving for a perfect and just world, how can these things have a place in it?

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

We are not striving for a perfect world I will leave such nonsense to the religious. I have no desire to go on any crusade against music I do not like yet again I will leave that to the god junkies ,the role of Communists is to propogate and help achive the idea that the working class should be in power and claiming they are not able to handle various media forms is ridiculous.

[Olerud]

Moralfag :rolleyes: I do like him sometimes even if he is a reformist.

[#FF0000]

they cant if all they see is capitalism consumerism in films, on TV games.
If communism triumphed globally, would people still be watching get rich or die trying.
Wouldnt to eradicate capitalism from all aspects of life, or would we still watch capitalistic programs.
I would i am sure, miss tv and rap and video games, but if we are striving for a perfect and just world, how can these things have a place in it?

Because, you fucking idiot, themes in music and television and art and videogames reflect society. There is nothing inherently wrong with violent video games, music, or anything else.

Good lord I can imagine a bunch of Jacobins gathering around a table back during the French Revolution and being stunned when some idiot says "GUYS WHEN WE OVERTHROW THE GOVERNMENT AND THE KING AND ALL THAT, WILL PEOPLE STILL READ KING LEAR? WHAT PLACE DOES THAT HAVE IN OUR PERFECT AND JUST WORLD, HUH?"

[Philosophical Materialist]

On a serious note I don't buy into what he is saying.

if people are so unstable, because of other conditions, that GTA triggers a killing spree or violent behaviour its not the fault of the trigger. If it wasn't GTA it would be a movie, or Catcher in the Rhy (Mark Chapman), or a Beatles Song (Charles Manson), or the Bible (loads of crazy fools) etc etc

Good point. In fact I'd imagine that the violent content in the Bible has inspired far more depraved and violent acts than any video game.

Isn't Gorgeous George a Roman Catholic?

[Wanted Man]

I'm glad George is paying attention to the important issues in society...

[RED ARMY FACTION]

lol
thats why its in chit chat comrade

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

yeah but its not.

[BobKKKindle$]

This thread reminds me of the conservatives who point to the fact that some of the people who watch pornography end up going on to commit rape, or sexually abuse their partners, and they argue on that basis that pornography is destructive and should be banned. Granted, there are people who, having played games like GTA, go and murder people. But this does not tell us anything about whether violent video games actually encourage or cause people to be violent towards others, and what you find if you look at individuals who were known to have enjoyed violent games/movies before going on to kill or otherwise harm someone, is that they often had some psychological disorder (such as long-term depression and/or social exclusion) or history of violence to begin with, and so it is unlikely that they would never have committed any crimes if they had never played a game like GTA, even if their violent tendencies caused them to be attracted to those games. This is important because it undermines the assertion that there is causality involved and therefore the solution that the OP is proposing does not tackle the problem that they set our to solve - namely, violent crime. The cost of such a policy would be a loss of enjoyment for the people do play GTA and have never displayed violent behaviour, these people accounting for the vast majority of gamers.

[Stranger Than Paradise]

George Galloway is a Social Democrat reformist. Not particularly surprising that he wants to impose restrictions upon our right to play video games.

[JimmyJazz]

the IRA guy who injects heroin

Woah, I have to play this game.

[Crux]

Don't hate the game, hate the player.

[Orange Juche]

Don't give me this daily mail bullshit. The majority of people can happily play games in which you batter innocent individuals to death without then going out an reinacting it.

I don't know, comrade... I played Zelda all last week and all I do now is keep breaking into people's houses and smashing their antique pottery that may or may not have money in it.

[Dr Mindbender]

Gallow way can get fucked I've just killed Ray, the end is near I sense

.....Musnt... post.... spoiler. http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d139/subzero2006/Pfffffffff.png



It's an American game!!!
Its Scottish actually. R* North is based in Edinburgh. Got to say though videogames have affected me in a big way. Everytime i've played super Mario i couldnt stop myself from running out to jump on mushrooms and headbutt bricks.

[NecroCommie]

I think 'Truly progressive actions' in matters such as these recognises the fundamental difference between offense and harm, as in we support the freedom to do everything which injures no one else. In cultural terms, that precipitates a position that stands opposed to those who argue that culture, particularly the parts that are seen as offensive or in some way loosely linked to some perceived harm, should be regulated or, as you put it, 'reformed'.
I think you did nt quite unerstand what I was trying to say, so I'll elaborate.

If you think that some form of expression is immoral, then the immorality itself has already happened. If you want to remove what you see as immoral, then the answer is not to influece art, but the very values human's hold in your society. Needless to say it is hard to the extreme, if not even undoable. Therefor the only way to achieve any real change in society is upkeep good quality of education. Even with that the effects will only be see on the long term, if at all.

If on the other hand you claim there is no morality better than the other, then that is pure boloney. Morals are relative to the society that views them. It means that there is some "right" set of morality, but that set changes and shifts constantly.

[ls]

Got to say though videogames have affected me in a big way. Everytime i've played super Mario i couldnt stop myself from running out to jump on mushrooms and headbutt bricks.

Comrade, I thought I was the only one with similar symptoms; playing crash bandicoot made me jump on poor innocent defenceless creatures in my youth :crying: how will I ever morally make up for that?

[Wanted Man]

In my case, I get a lot of bad influence from Morrowind and Football Manager. Yesterday, I ran around covered in ash, vowing to drive the outlanders from our land. Today, I kept strolling around with a notebook with tactical instructions in it.

[Killfacer]

This thread reminds me of the conservatives who point to the fact that some of the people who watch pornography end up going on to commit rape, or sexually abuse their partners, and they argue on that basis that pornography is destructive and should be banned. Granted, there are people who, having played games like GTA, go and murder people. But this does not tell us anything about whether violent video games actually encourage or cause people to be violent towards others, and what you find if you look at individuals who were known to have enjoyed violent games/movies before going on to kill or otherwise harm someone, is that they often had some psychological disorder (such as long-term depression and/or social exclusion) or history of violence to begin with, and so it is unlikely that they would never have committed any crimes if they had never played a game like GTA, even if their violent tendencies caused them to be attracted to those games. This is important because it undermines the assertion that there is causality involved and therefore the solution that the OP is proposing does not tackle the problem that they set our to solve - namely, violent crime. The cost of such a policy would be a loss of enjoyment for the people do play GTA and have never displayed violent behaviour, these people accounting for the vast majority of gamers.

It does my fucking nut in but BK is right and as per usual, more eloquent than myself.

[Killfacer]

In my case, I get a lot of bad influence from Morrowind and Football Manager. Yesterday, I ran around covered in ash, vowing to drive the outlanders from our land. Today, I kept strolling around with a notebook with tactical instructions in it.

Don't you just hate those god damned dunmer who ain't from the ashlands? Fucking wannabees ain't got a clue.

[Wanted Man]

Absolutely. Settled Dunmer worship false Gods. They are outlanders, foreigners; they should go back to where they came from.

[YKTMX]

Well, I'm not in favour of "banning" games like this, obviously. But that doesn't mean that George doesn't have a point. The content of these games is completely reactionary to their innermost core.

Video games, like any other commodity, are products and producers of a social environment. These games reflect all the baser and more obnoxious elements of bourgeois society (individualism, violence, misogyny, homophobia, racism) and serve to "normalize" these trends.

I'm rather bemused by the claim that any call for the "banning" of something reflects a "moralistic" attitude. I'm not even sure why "moralism", as such, is considered to be a crime. The call for an end to exploitation is a "moralistic" one, if one wants to look at it from a certain perspective.

If someone can seriously claim, without any doubts, that games like this do not promote the things I said they promote amongst the people who play these games, remembering that one of the great attractions of games like GTA4 is that they "immerse" the player within the game's environment, then they could have a case when claiming that all criticisms are unwarranted.

As it stands, the critique of "censorship" is a just sort of weak-minded liberalism. It promotes the idea that Ideas (like racism, sexism) do not have any material grounding, are not expressions of particular social relations, but just "things" that people accept or refuse through their own "free will".

A materialist analysis would, on the other hand, point to how these ideas are grounded in social relations and exploitative productive activities - like, for instance, to pick an example off the top of my head, the creation and mass production of video games.

[Pirate Utopian]

Video games, like any other commodity, are products and producers of a social environment. These games reflect all the baser and more obnoxious elements of bourgeois society (individualism, violence, misogyny, homophobia, racism) and serve to "normalize" these trends.
What racism? or misogyny? have you even played the game?

There is even a few missions you have to do for a homosexual character, sure the character is a stereotype but the maincharacter is vocally against homophobia and even fights (and kills) gaybashers.

[YKTMX]

What racism? or misogyny? have you even played the game?

There is even a few missions you have to do for a homosexual character, sure the character is a stereotype but the maincharacter is vocally against homophobia and even fights (and kills) gaybashers.

Hmm, do you think it's a coincidence that all the female characters, from my recollection playing the game, tend to be thin with big tits?

Or the general air of rather mindless racial stereotyping that goes on in the game?

Or the fact that one of the "hilarious" features of the game is that your "character" can fuck prostitutes?

Now, of course, I'm not saying that these things are in the game because its makers are all racists and misogynists. They are in the game because it's "fun" for 15 year-old boys (the main audience of the game) to be able to fuck prostitutes in their "immersive" virtual reality, and to be "active" in a world many of them know only in movies and music.

That doesn't make the content any different, however. It's not an excuse.

[fidzboi]

If on the other hand you claim there is no morality better than the other, then that is pure boloney.

I make no such claim, indeed I would posit that my morality is better than all others, as would everyone else. What I think is good to do, is right to do, is fair to do, I do, as does everyone else. We are all moral agents, and we therefore make certain value judgements when viewing other peoples moral codes. We see some as better, some as worse.

This, however, does not mean that 'better' moral codes should be given a state mandate, but that the state should recognise an individuals right to do which that injures no one else. Whether this is playing GTA4 or having a relationship with a person of the same sex, these things cause no harm and therefore should not be censored and suppressed.

This is itself a moral code, one which is fundamentally better. Precisely because it recognises the individuals freedom to pursue all that interests them so long as it causes no harm, where by contrast other moral codes seek to limit individual freedom due to some form of perceived offence coming from that action.

The individual, freed from the chains of class society, is central to progressive, revolutionary politics.

[fidzboi]

As it stands, the critique of "censorship" is a just sort of weak-minded liberalism. It promotes the idea that Ideas (like racism, sexism) do not have any material grounding, are not expressions of particular social relations, but just "things" that people accept or refuse through their own "free will".

You've got that one backwards, Malcolm. As you can see from just looking at the posts of the anti-censorship people, their 'critique of censorship' primarily revolves around an understanding that the game itself does not produce killers, but instead the relationships of the material world do. Just because you may wish the inverse to be true, does not make it so.

[YKTMX]

You've got that one backwards, Malcolm. As you can see from just looking at the posts of the anti-censorship people, their 'critique of censorship' primarily revolves around an understanding that the game itself does not produce killers, but instead the relationships of the material world do. Just because you may wish the inverse to be true, does not make it so.

But anyone with even a basic "sense" of Marxism would understand commodites and their effects have a fundamental role in accounts of the "material world". Saying that the availability of a video game doesn't effect people's behaviour is the equivalent to saying that the lack of food doesn't effect people's behaviour.

Ludicrous.

[fidzboi]

But anyone with even a basic "sense" of Marxism would understand commodites and their effects have a fundamental role in accounts of the "material world". Saying that the availability of a video game doesn't effect people's behaviour is the equivalent to saying that the lack of food doesn't effect people's behaviour.

Ludicrous.


And anyone with even a basic understanding of Marxism would realise that a video game plays a minimal role in the shaping of human society. There are far bigger material forces at play, and the availability of a video game does not significantly alter or affect human behaviour... and certainly not in the way a lack of food does.

Very poor use of the trump card, very poor use indeed...

[Dimentio]

Galoway said he hates anything that glorifies gratuotous violence, calls for gta4 to be banned on talksport on you tube, do you agree.
I guess if you thought i was being slightly racist for my questions oin rap i must be anti digital character for this question:)

Galloway is just saying what he believes his constituents want to hear.

[Uncle Hank]

When a person murders another person there are many more and much more infinitely fucked up things in play than some (slightly satirical) video game violence. Does it desensitize us? Sometimes. Does it make us get up, pick up a gun and pistolwhip a prostitute to death and steal their money? No.

[Muzk]

fail parents=kids get educated by the tv=kids will fail at life

i call this the theory of chain-failure

[Invincible Summer]

Actually a boy did say he played the game, which he wanted to act out and he slit that mans throat in london.
The sick fucks who killed bulger saw it on a film.
If we did not become influenced by what we see we would never learn anything or come to understand things, so if a kid sees violence, rape etc on a regular and casual basis, he is more likely to feel violence is normal.
like in ireland, the conflict was so fierce that even now the conflict is over kids in some areas still go out at night to throw stones petrol bombs, then go to sleep in the daytime.
when extremes are normalized they become acceptable.


this is for most people.
but some mentally unstable children can become physcos from exposure to extreme violence in tv fil ps games.
not every person is politically active, they dont focus their hate on capitalism, as they dont understand, so they dont feel part of society, they dont want to change the society, so to take their isolation out they become infatuated with violent stimulation.

There have been numerous studies on this subject, and there is no conclusive evidence that video game violence = violence in its participants. in fact, it can be argued that violent games have a cathartic effect on the players.

You look like a sensationalist newsperson when you keep bringing up isolated, extreme cases




And anyone with even a basic understanding of Marxism would realise that a video game plays a minimal role in the shaping of human society. There are far bigger material forces at play, and the availability of a video game does not significantly alter or affect human behaviour... and certainly not in the way a lack of food does.

Understanding of Marxism? More like life.

[YKTMX]

And anyone with even a basic understanding of Marxism would realise that a video game plays a minimal role in the shaping of human society. There are far bigger material forces at play, and the availability of a video game does not significantly alter or affect human behaviour... and certainly not in the way a lack of food does.

Very poor use of the trump card, very poor use indeed...

I don't remember reading Marx's comments on the role of immersive, multi-format, socially realistic and technologically advanced video games in Victorian England. You're quite right.

But I do remember reading a whole load about how the commodities we produce come to shape and dominate our lives under capitalism - the system of universal commodity production.

Your comment about the "minimal" role of games is suspect. Video games are a massive part of the modern media and entertainment industry - bigger than music and video games together in terms of its value, I've heard.

If someone were to say that the role of newspaper or the media industry was "minimal" in shaping society, they would, rightly, be laughed out the room.

That's because we know that in contemporary bourgeois society, the principal agent for the communication of bourgeois ideas is the media and the "entertainment" industry. That is just a plain fact. No other single factor plays as great a role in shaping our ideas as "popular entertainment".

Now, you want to "wish" this fact away by giving us second-rate readings of John Stuart Mill. And that's fine. It's really fine.

But please don't pretend that this position is somehow "progressive" - and certainly not that it is, in any fashion, "Marxist".

The fact is that you sound like an apologist who's being funded by the major corporations - yes, major corporations - who produce this reactionary fluff and sell it to us and our children. For a purpose - do we know what that purpose is?

I wonder if someone would get away with sounding like an Oil or Big Tobacco executive?

No, but because the harmful commodity being sold is a video game - and a "cool" and popular one - we have to listen to half-baked liberal nonsense about the "harm to others" that is or is not being caused.

Give me a break.

[chegitz guevara]

how so, because they are newborn?

No, because they have no labor power to sell, especially fetuses. :rolleyes:

[Die Rote Fahne]

Galloway, as great a man, and very well spoken, is a bit above the age level of understanding video games.

I'm sure a chat with someone from here could change his mind on the subject. So, call in to his radio show when you have a chance and bring the topic up.

[chegitz guevara]

Everytime i've played super Mario i couldnt stop myself from running out to jump on mushrooms and headbutt bricks.


I don't know, comrade... I played Zelda all last week and all I do now is keep breaking into people's houses and smashing their antique pottery that may or may not have money in it.

Gah, the joke is: "Computer games don't affect kids. I mean, if Pacman affected us as kids, we'd all be running around in darkened rooms, munching magic pills and listening to repetitive electronic music..." (Kristian Wilson, Nintendo Inc, 1989)