Rap Music, is it dangerous to the youth.

[RED ARMY FACTION]

I happen tothink it is extremely dangerous, especially in places with downtrodden and embittered people.
When a youth is surrounded by crime, poverty and is feeling trapped, rap music, which often sponsors black on back genocide, drug dealing and demotes womens status in society.
I myself have members of my family who have grown up in gang culture, been shot and my cousin was always in and out of secure units.
Before he would go out to rob or steal or do something like that, he would listen to rap to phsyce himself up.
He also thought he was justified in doing what he did as he felt capitalism was responsible, so rather than agree to the rules of a capitalist societey, he would make his own rules.
He has since rejected all criminal activity and after borrowing communist manifesto and aquiring george jacksons blood in my eye, he has turned his life around, although he is somewhat of a black nationalist, which i consider hugely dissapointing.
He however, says he thinks rap music is a hugely negative effect on youths, especially black males, as he said, when he was looking up to rappers like tupac, bigie smalls, ice t, the main theme is murder, hate and total disunity except with members of your gang.

Do you think he is over reacting or could he have a good point.
Let me know your position comrades, i am sure it will be a devicive subject.

[Stranger Than Paradise]

No, crusades against rap music are led by the bourgeois intelligentsia in an attempt to demonise working class youth.

[Pirate Utopian]

First of all rap music is very diverse it's not all gangsta rap, there's also A Tribe Called Quest, Saul Williams or Run DMC.

Ice-T (and on some songs Tupac as well) discouraged gang violence, listen to Ice-T's song Colors for example.

Music is just that music, I dont think crime would drop if there was no gangsta rap.
Gangsta rap is just the music of choice, if there was no rap, they would cling to another musicgenre be it gangsta punk, gangsta dance or even gangsta folk.

[rebelmouse]

let him to stay independent from you, as you see, in the end, he gave up alone from criminality. he understood it is reserved for people with big connections, the rest will spend their life in prisons.
but in any case, it is visible that he is city boy if he need music to prepare himself for action.
in any case, he was correct when he said that criminality is consequence of capitalism.
music has different influence on different people, so I don't think rap is damage or danger, rap is reflection of situation in society. they speak about the truth, at least the truth of their getto life. people who identify their life with such problems, with getto life, of course, many of them will become criminals and they like music which speaks about their life and problems. of course, there are and trendy kids who just listen it as a trend, so I know excellent students who listen such music and they will never do anything criminal.

[RED ARMY FACTION]

i listen to immortal technique and rappers who rap about political things, i also like tupacs brendas got a baby and such.
Also, his dad was the one who killed dessie noonan, his cousin was jullian bell who started the gooch so he was bound to be dragged in, i know it cant be blamed on rap music, however i do think it is a negative influence in alot of aspects.

[Pirate Utopian]

If the conditions described in gangsta rap didnt exist there wouldnt be gangsta rap, the music's hardly to blame.

[9]

I think struggling with whether or not gangsta rap is dangerous to youth is missing the point. The society which permits the poverty that leads to the gang culture is the real danger, not the art which expresses the conditions of life in that culture.

EDIT: Goddamnit, Pirate Utopian just made my point while I was still typing my comment :(

[RED ARMY FACTION]

I think struggling with whether or not gangster rap is dangerous to youth is missing the point. The society which permits the poverty that leads to the gang culture is the real danger, not the art which expresses the conditions of life in that culture.

EDIT: Goddamnit, Pirate Utopian just made my point while I was still typing my comment :(

i know comrade, but that is not what i mean.
I think it makes youths in a borderline criminal lifestyle, start to think crime is normal when they hear it enough, like a guy screaming motha fucka down a stereo:)

[Pirate Utopian]

If some rap songs are their push into crime they were bound to go down that path anyway because of other conditions like poverty.

I cant really think of a case in which a well off gangsta rap-fan went criminal just because of the music.

[RED ARMY FACTION]

Exactly it is detrimental to working class inner city youths, not a danger to very well educated, well to do youths from secure backgrounds.
Unless you count vanilla ice, he became a fucking idiot once he heard rap music:)

[Pirate Utopian]

You missed my point.
I wasnt saying gangsta rap is "a threat", I was saying if music is a push into crime, there must be alot of other things going on and the person in question would have eventually be pushed into the criminal direction anyway.

[Redmau5]

Exactly it is detrimental to working class inner city youths, not a danger to very well educated, well to do youths from secure backgrounds.
Unless you count vanilla ice, he became a fucking idiot once he heard rap music:)

So should we ban working-class people from watching films which show a heavy amount of violence or drug taking?

Just because someone is an "inner city youth" doesn't mean they're a brain dead moron who automatically emulates everything they see or hear in the media.

[RED ARMY FACTION]

in china most of these things are banned
why not here(i dont think they should but i know some comrades who think it would be appropriate to)

[Sam_b]

Wow.

[bricolage]

Damn negroes with their damn gang-star music...

[bricolage]

aDdertWlGcA

Listen from three minutes on, and then realise what kind of people you share your views with... then go listen to 36 chambers and wake the fuck up.

[RED ARMY FACTION]

what are my views moron, i listen to rap
did you even listen to my posts:rolleyes:

[bricolage]

what are my views moron, i listen to rap
did you even listen to my posts:rolleyes:

You wrote black on black genocide and after that I stopped taking you seriously.

[chegitz guevara]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HekpXSI-N_o&feature=player_embedded

[RED ARMY FACTION]

well do they not advocate black on black gun crime, yes they do.
If you try to deny this you are not looking at the evidence.
i still listen to it, i am just stating what my BLACK cousin said so dont say these are my views.
so whats wrong with me saying this.

[bricolage]

well do they not advocate black on black gun crime, yes they do.
If you try to deny this you are not looking at the evidence.
i still listen to it, i am just stating what my BLACK cousin said so dont say these are my views.
so whats wrong with me saying this.

I made that comment because black on black crime is very different to black on black 'genocide', I just thought it ridiculous your use of the word.

In any case the music you are talking about, if it advocates gun crime, doesn't do so in a specifically black on black remit, to be honest I've never heard a rapper chat about just shooting black people. Maybe you are referring to use of nigga which tends to just serve as a catch all term for other people and not a call to arms against those with melanin.

Back to the matter at hand, you seem to have taken one case completely in isolation and come to the conclusion that rap music leads people to criminality. As people have pointed out violent or criminal music only exists as a product of the environment it is born in, furthermore someone who listens to such music and commits a crime doesn't do so just because they heard it in a song, do you think everyone that falls in love does so because they heard a song about it?

Fact is you are looking at the wrong target, I think it was in Bowling for Columbine when Marilyn Manson asks why people attack music for violence, why not the states who are bombing the rest of the world. There's your answer.

[RED ARMY FACTION]

not when thousands die every year
thats us sponsored genocide aswell, why do you think there are so many gun and liquor stores.

[bricolage]

not when thousands die every year
thats us sponsored genocide aswell, why do you think there are so many gun and liquor stores.

That's still not genocide.

[RED ARMY FACTION]

oh ok

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

I listen to NWA yet I have no desire to buy an uzi and go down the street shooting people.

[RED ARMY FACTION]

i listen to castro yet i have no dreams of revolution....
no wait:)

[Invincible Summer]

Are you friends with Tipper Gore?

[RED ARMY FACTION]

i am not against (profane) language, i am against the self destruction of a racial entity in the name of record sales and the allmighty US dollar

[Invincible Summer]

i am not against (profane) language, i am against the self destruction of a racial entity in the name of record sales and the allmighty US dollar

So you're against mainstream rap music then. Well, I sort of think your analysis is a tad biased and condescending towards black youth. I know many non-Black people that listen to rap/mainstream (c)rap (sometimes even more than the black people I know). I do worry that the reactionary messages of being obsessed with objectifying women and money and fame will get to them somehow, but I have not seen any such influence.

Anyways, my point is that I don't think it's fair to say that only black youth will face "self-destruction" via rap music, as it's so in the mainstream now that I'd almost say that anyone can be equally affected by it.

[RED ARMY FACTION]

eminem is white he has grotesque lyrics too about murdering his ex wife her lover and the lovers 4 year old son.
Anything like that is damaging to a young persons mindset.
Black Or White

[RED ARMY FACTION]

and i said black people are at most risk because they are.
Most of the gangs are made up of black youths as they are the ones the government want to wipe out by giving them guns and drugs.
When they destroyed the panthers they cut off the head, so now we have all these young black males armed but without the political rhetoric.
Rap used to be about the struggles, racism any number of things, so the government said lets get these morons to call each other niggers.
Lets get them to call their women *****es.
good way of making an entire people so disenfranchised they pick up the gun but instead of using the gun to make social change, they use it to make money and keep up with this capitalist world, instead of destroying it.

[Olerud]

http://www.nocussing.com/images/259_NCC_Video_Pic_22.jpg
http://www.nocussing.com/

Stop gun crime y'all..

[MaoTseHelen]

Dangerous to youth? I dunno, but judging by this and other threads, it's a question you could answer with some simple inner reflection.

[Invincible Summer]

eminem is white he has grotesque lyrics too about murdering his ex wife her lover and the lovers 4 year old son.
Anything like that is damaging to a young persons mindset.
Black Or White


I thought you were not against profane language...
Anyways, you're assuming that youth are all stupid and will do anything that they see/hear. Lots of people listen to Eminem - how many youth have murdered their girlfriends or whomever "because of Eminem?"



and i said black people are at most risk because they are.
Most of the gangs are made up of black youths as they are the ones the government want to wipe out by giving them guns and drugs.
When they destroyed the panthers they cut off the head, so now we have all these young black males armed but without the political rhetoric.
Rap used to be about the struggles, racism any number of things, so the government said lets get these morons to call each other niggers.
Lets get them to call their women *****es.
good way of making an entire people so disenfranchised they pick up the gun but instead of using the gun to make social change, they use it to make money and keep up with this capitalist world, instead of destroying it.

Yes, "the government" (which one? All of them, simultaneously?!) actually sent messages to all black people through their TVs, telling them to "call each other niggers." "The Government" sponsors all MTV rap celebrities to corrupt minority youth.

It's not a conspiracy... shit.


so the government said lets get these morons to call each other niggers.
Lets get them to call their women *****es.

I think you've got some inner racism going on here, comrade. I think you should stop posting for a few days and think about what you're talking about here.

[RED ARMY FACTION]

i am saying that is how the government sees it.
Dont ever acuse me of being racist

[RED ARMY FACTION]

[QUOTE=Rise Like Lions;1574643]I thought you were not against profane language...
Anyways, you're assuming that youth are all stupid and will do anything that they see/hear. Lots of people listen to Eminem - how many youth have murdered their girlfriends or whomever "because of Eminem?"



Clearly large sections of the youth are stupid, otherwise they would not support capitalism.
Anyone who cant see through the fact republicans love the facts poor youths kill each other because of the gang trap are complete imbeciles and the fact you shout racism when i am trying to say THE US GOVERNMENT is racist is plain moronic.
Was Huey racist for saying the exact same thing.
Having family involved in gangs does, even if you beleive me or not, give me a better insight than most on the subject

[jake williams]

I'm surprised how few people have mentioned that rap - especially "political rap" but even some pretty mainstream rap - is by far the most political, and the most 'leftist', of any pop music in the United States. It has its origins, and in some places and cases still even is, the voice of some of the most oppressed members of the US working class.

[Pirate Utopian]

Clearly large sections of the youth are stupid, otherwise they would not support capitalism.
Support capitalism? because some listen to rapsongs about bling? pfft.

Also ageist rubbish.


Anyone who cant see through the fact republicans love the facts poor youths kill each other because of the gang trap are complete imbeciles and the fact you shout racism when i am trying to say THE US GOVERNMENT is racist is plain moronic.
It is racist when you say black youths are more likely to be influenced by music to commit crime than white youths.


Was Huey racist for saying the exact same thing.
Having family involved in gangs does, even if you beleive me or not, give me a better insight than most on the subject
Apparently not.

[Olerud]

That's a bit harsh.

[scarletghoul]

Rap music is awesome.
Like any kind of music, or art for that matter, the mainstream current has been reduced to commercialised shit that is not good for the people and serves only bourgeois interests. In the case of rap, the lyrics of the mainstream rap (and also wannabe-mainstream rap) tend to reinforce bourgeois ideology and keep the poor down. They encourage 'reactionary suicide', the self-destruction of the people by chasing bourgeois-ideological dreams (see: 50 Cent's Get Rich or Die Trying). But this is not the essence of rap music, and a look beneath the surface reveals that rap music also is often rebellious and anti-establishment. So there are revolutionary, or potentially revolutionary, elements in rap music too. In other words the problem is bourgeois ideology in rap music, not rap music itself. Rap music is perfectly capable of, indeed suited to, carrying a revolutionary message (see: the coup, dead prez, etc).

We should embrace rap music, but combat bourgeois ideology in it, replacing it with a revolutionary message (the same goes for art and culture in general).

[RED ARMY FACTION]

i did not equate rap music to crime, i was talking about how my cousin said he thought it was prevelent in most of his friends and his own lives, and was a contributing factor in the normalization of violence and criminal behavior.
if you had listened you would of hear me say i was dissapointed with his statement and how i listen to rap myself.
you got all this bullshit from, by twisting what i said or misenterpreting the meaning.

[scarletghoul]

In defence of RED ARMY FACTION, it's true that the establishment, including the state and capitalist music industry, encourage blacks to kill eachother. This is a product of what I was saying, the reactionary suicide encouraged by a lot of bourgeois-idealist rap music. Whether it should be labelled genocide or not is up for debate, but the general point being made I think is correct.

[JimmyJazz]

First of all rap music is very diverse it's not all gangsta rap, there's also A Tribe Called Quest, Saul Williams or Run DMC.

Ice-T (and on some songs Tupac as well) discouraged gang violence, listen to Ice-T's song Colors for example.

Music is just that music, I dont think crime would drop if there was no gangsta rap.
Gangsta rap is just the music of choice, if there was no rap, they would cling to another musicgenre be it gangsta punk, gangsta dance or even gangsta folk.

Even the gansta rap is not as one-sided as people portray it. 2Pac was probably the original gangsta rapper, yet he also starred in a movie like Juice, which has a profoundly anti-gang, anti-gun, anti-street violence message.

Actually, most gangsta rap includes at least some messages warning about the dangers of a gangster lifestyle and warning young people to stay out of it if they can. It's a "do as I say, not as I do" approach, to be sure, but it does go to show that it's not all as one-sided as the media usually portray it.

[Uncle Ho]

Even the gansta rap is not as one-sided as people portray it. 2Pac was probably the original gangsta rapper, yet he also starred in a movie like Juice, which has a profoundly anti-gang, anti-gun, anti-street violence message.

Actually, most gangsta rap includes at least some messages warning about the dangers of a gangster lifestyle and warning young people to stay out of it if they can. It's a "do as I say, not as I do" approach, to be sure, but it does go to show that it's not all as one-sided as the media usually portray it.

That, and many good rappers are trying to raise awareness of the situation of the oppressed minorities of this nation. Tupac didn't do many of the things he rapped about, yet he was trying to raise awareness, especially among the wealthier sections of our community.

Generally speaking, good artists try to represent what they know, and these men know oppression and despair, so it reflects in their songs.

[RotStern]

Rhyming to a beat harmful to youth? Nahhh, You should check out folk music.

[Искра]

in china most of these things are banned
why not here
this it the best one.

this thread reminds me of times when I was punk and crusties used to talk about how mainstream punk is supporting capitalism and how we should listen only to DIY punk and go to gigs and buy DIY records, patches etc.
so basically what they were advocating was boycotting capitalism with their little capitalism and we all know that you can't have anything libertarian (anarchist) or communist inside of capitalism.
but, let's back to rap music. music itself, as many people said here is not problem. it's art, or not, it's fun or not, you like it or not... who gives a fuck?
claiming that listening to mainstream rap music you support capitalism is stupid. you support capitalism by listening to immortal technique, class war and other rappers, like you support capitalism by having a job, having a house, paying taxes, eating in one word: you support capitalism by living.
what you can do is to organise people on your work place and strike it back. you can fight for classless society.
so, in my opinion rap music is dangerous to youth, because it advocates liberal and capitalist values. but more dangerous thing is education which is nothing but a capitalist/liberal indoctrination.

[Nwoye]

I'm trying not to be mean, but this is a pretty stupid thread, for reasons already listed.

and immortal technique is horrible.

[RED ARMY FACTION]

"perhaps the underlying facts they hide explain GENOCIDE, why do we ride on our own kind, tell me who do you beleive in"
FROM TUPACS MOUTH:)

[RED ARMY FACTION]

harlem rennisance is a great track

[rednordman]

this post has only made me realise why anarchists totally suck! (at times). Come on, You are arrogantly taking it as gospel that kids in urban areas only see things in terms of class. Epic fail. They look at who is popular in the mainstream. That + most mainstream producers/rappers = Chavenism, Sexism, and last but not least, self worshipping awfull rap music. Get a grip people. Also redarmyfaction is NOT racist, for raising this topic. it needs to be discussed...

[Catbus]

They look at who is popular in the mainstream.

I don't think that's the only thing that urban kids think about. As it's been said before, it's not the rap music that makes people commit crimes, it's the conditions capitalism will inherently cause that does.

[rednordman]

I don't think that's the only thing that urban kids think about. As it's been said before, it's not the rap music that makes people commit crimes, it's the conditions capitalism will inherently cause that does.Yes I agree with you, but I honestly do not think thats it is what was getting suggested against by RAF in the first place. I am with him on this one. Things is though, its a problem when young so and so ends up in court for attempted murder, and cites 50cents and an inspiration for why they commited their crime. This is what is wrong with the mainstream in hip-hop music nowadays. Kids want to be like the people at the pinacle of capitalism. They are not taught about altruism at all in any sense...After all, in school nowadays, communism/anarchists/socialism is WORSER than nazism/fascism.

The rappers who are most popular are there because they are being marketed the best. They can thus,...say what they like. Surely they must know that glorifying violences is not a good thing!? But yet they still do so.

[Catbus]

Yes I agree with you, but I honestly do not think thats it is what was getting suggested in the first place. Things is though, its a problem when young so and so ends up in court for attempted murder, and cites 50cents and an inspiration for why they commited their crime. This is what is wrong with the mainstream in hip-hop music nowadays. Kids want to be like the people at the pinacle of capitalism. They are not taught about altruism at all in any sense...After all, in school nowadays, communism/anarchists/socialism is WORSER than nazism/fascism.

The rappers who are most popular are there because they are being marketed the best. They can thus,...say what they like. Surely they must know that glorifying violences is not a good thing!? But yet they still do so.

I agree with that, except has anyone actually cited 50 Cent for being a reason for committing a crime?

[RED ARMY FACTION]

yes two brothers in new york
thank god BTW someone sees my point, and does not brand me as racist

[Искра]

this post has only made me realise why anarchists totally suck! (at times).
which post and why?

[Lolshevik]

I'm a working class person.
I listen to rap.
And... I haven't smacked any *****es yet...

[rednordman]

I agree with that, except has anyone actually cited 50 Cent for being a reason for committing a crime?Good point, I cannot actually verify this, but, I do know that alot of former criminals do infact use the whole rap scene as an excuse. Problem is that i cannot provide actually solid evidence for this, but I do know its the case.

I always remember a few years ago that there was something on MTV about gang crime that asked the exact same questions of this post. It was a live discussion. Basically, none of the youths on the forum actually admitted to the music being influentials. The problem was that it became very obvious that they identified with the style of music and saw it as their own (:rolleyes:yes, because South Central LA is exacly the same as South london..:rolleyes:) They all defended the mainsteam rap music basically because it was 'in fashion' at the time and you could see by their reactions that they knew that glorification of guns and such, blatantly had influenced some of their mates to commit bad crime.

The real problem is that because of a mix of capitalism and cultural hegemony, everyone has to look the part else they are considered a zero. The sad thing is that within these gangs, people get killed for just trying not to be a zero, let alone a top gangster.

Also of the subject, it was seen with some scepticism that 50 boasted about getting shot an incredible number of times. This is a fucking awfull thing to boast about to kids of a very young age. The general rule is that if you get shot once....you are fucked! So why boast to kids about 9times or something? I apologise so much about the use of language.

[Pirate Utopian]

This whole bullshit thread reminds of how people in the 50s complained about rock & roll leading to "loose morals".




this post has only made me realise why anarchists totally suck! (at times). Come on, You are arrogantly taking it as gospel that kids in urban areas only see things in terms of class. Epic fail. They look at who is popular in the mainstream. That + most mainstream producers/rappers = Chavenism, Sexism, and last but not least, self worshipping awfull rap music. Get a grip people.
Nobody says most of them think in class.

The thing is they have no money only trouble and their only escape is crime, some gangsta songs are not the reason for gang violence, gang violence is the reason people make gangsta rap because they feel the need to express their situation.

Now some rappers exaggerate or fake things like for example 50 Cent but if there was no ghetto's then there wouldnt be anything to exaggerate about.

[rednordman]

which post and why?I do apologise as I have had a tough time of late and was at bursting point anyway (, but to be more specific it is posts claiming that RAF is racist, as well as the post that say that any opposition to hip hop is mainly by bourgouis media) Bourgouis only care for what ever makes money regardless of ethics and morals. If hip hops sells, they can further their monopolies and exploit more markets, they do not care if the rapper talks about shooting someone so long as people are buying the record.

Coming back to the initial point though, Yes, everyone is correct blaming capitalism, but in this case they have to look a little less at the broader picture and more at the micro one.

[Invincible Summer]

i am saying that is how the government sees it.
Dont ever acuse me of being racist

Well it seems/seemed like you were projecting inner thoughts/feelings about rap culture. Yes, you listen to rap too, I get it, but that doesn't mean one can't have these feelings.




this post has only made me realise why anarchists totally suck! (at times). Come on, You are arrogantly taking it as gospel that kids in urban areas only see things in terms of class. Epic fail. They look at who is popular in the mainstream. That + most mainstream producers/rappers = Chavenism, Sexism, and last but not least, self worshipping awfull rap music. Get a grip people. Also redarmyfaction is NOT racist, for raising this topic. it needs to be discussed...

I'm not sure if anyone said he was racist for raising the topic, but perhaps the way he went around arguing his point made it seem like he was accusing *black youth* for being gullible/stupid/whatever by being influenced by mainstream rap.


yes two brothers in new york
thank god BTW someone sees my point, and does not brand me as racist

Two people... and I don't think you are racist, but it seemed like you were projecting/harboring some racist sentiments. I don't think it's quite the same thing.

[Crux]

Don't hate the player, hate the game.

[chegitz guevara]

Why not? The player's an ass.

[Uncle Ho]

Why not? The player's an ass.

The proverbial player was sucked into the proverbial game by forces beyond his own control, and cannot escape thanks to a racist system set up for the specific purpose of keeping him downtrodden.

[NecroCommie]

I know several local rappers who are strictly left-wing and class concious. One of them is a true revolutionary (albeit badly enlightened one). Judging them because they like rap is counter productive. And I don't even like rap myself.

[9]

While I'm not personally a rap fan so I don't have extensive knowledge of the different artists etc, I do think its a bit silly to talk about "rap music" like it's a homogeneous entity. Obviously there is the more mainstream commercialized rap, there is gangsta rap, there is mainstream commercialized gangsta rap, etc. etc. so I don't think it is so cut and dry. But for those in the thread railing against mainstream commercialized gangsta rap and who, as someone in this thread said, want to view it on a "micro" level, which is to say, cut off from the larger picture of capitalism, I'm curious what you propose revolutionaries do about it. Should we be mobilizing the left to fight against gangsta rap? Should we be partnering with Tipper Gore? Should we all go register with our nearest bourgeois social-democratic party to fight for legislation which censors violent content in gangsta rap...? I mean seriously, what is gained from viewing it on a "micro" level cut off from the larger problem of capitalism unless we are planning to work toward some reform? Why don't we just join crimethinc and protest gangsta rap by telling all our friends not to buy it... :lol:
I really can't think of any other conclusion which can be reached from the logic which sees the problem here as something that can even begin to be analyzed outside of the context of capitalism. Poor inner-city black kids are not killing each other because they heard from their favorite rapper that killing was a cool thing to do. The violence is the result of poverty, oppression, and despair, not of rap music, for fuck's sake. I can't really fathom a more blatantly liberal position than that which views violence among impoverished inner-city black kids as the result of rap music while suggesting that we ignore the context of capitalism altogether in our analysis.

[Ovi]

Not much of a big deal, but I like rap. Actually I listen almost exclusively to rap.
I don't know what most understand about rap music, but some of the subjects of the songs that I listen to are about poverty, the lack of power on your own life, the selfish rich, people that have forgot to care about the others, criticizing politicians, wars, greed, consumerism, nationalism, patriotism and of course smoking weed, getting drunk and having fun...

[rednordman]

I'm curious what you propose revolutionaries do about it.To be frank with you I am not sure. I dont think that they should ban it anyway, But definitly do wish that the rappers should set positive examples. Boasting about '*****es' and 'bling' isnt a good thing no matter what way you look at it.

To make things worse, a rapper may well say something that is 'tonge and cheek' and not to be taken literally, yet someone who is impreshionable may not get this and think that its for real. This is what Im seeing a lot of on the streets anyhow. And alot of my friends say the samething also.

As far as I see it, this is all that not only rappers but now house producers want to do. Dont get me wrong either, I do get it, but as far as youth in this country go, they see this and think, this is what I want. This then has an adverse effect as they aim for stuff that frankly is unrealistic. Thus bad for their self esteme.

The reason I used the word micro (yes, there is better words for it) is because I totally agree with the broader picture that it is capitalism, just that dosent take away from the fact that what a majority of the mainstream rappers protray is wrong. And I know first hand that alot of youth take this seriously. NOT all of them, but too many anyhow.

After all, when dealing with the awfull reality of modern western civilisation, people tend to need idols, someone to look up to. If a rapper talks about coming from the gutter and making it, then goes about himself being a total self absorbed chauvenist, they what message is that going to give them? Its definitly not a revolutionary one is it.

If anything, it helps the bourgois because the seed that is planted in ones mind is generally one of 'forget about making things better for everyone, think for yourself and get out of dump as soon as you can-its not your problem'. Thus everyone is against eachother in a colossal rat race.

Of course, it isnt as straight forward as this, after all it isnt just urban youths who are effected by this, and there is, as others have mentioned, better examples of rap and hip hop. The reason I focus on the mainstream is because I know first hand how influenced people can be by it - simply because it is on the TV/radio all the time and they do not have to look hard to find it.

If I was to tell the whole picture then I would go on forever, looking at things from many different viewpoints (I dont want to bore you death:D).

[Jethro Tull]

I made that comment because black on black crime is very different to black on black 'genocide', I just thought it ridiculous your use of the word.

Actually, the fella who invented the term "genocide" gave it a purposefully vague enough definition so as to include anything that even remotely contributes to the degradation of a people's social fabric. (which music that encourages gang-sectarianism definitely qualifies as) Much more spurious uses of the term "genocide" can be very easily found in the literature - for example, Denver AIM even claims the introduction of marijuana and hashish to North America's indigenous communities is an example of "genocide".


I thought you were not against profane language...

as someone who's enjoyed Eminem's music in the past, i have to say that there is a massive gap between the use of "profane language", and vividly describing in malicious detail the hypothetical rape and murder of your real life ex-girlfriend.


I'm surprised how few people have mentioned that rap - especially "political rap" but even some pretty mainstream rap - is by far the most political, and the most 'leftist', of any pop music in the United States.

This is crap, there is some wonderful underground hip-hop just as there is some wonderful underground country, metal, indie folk, etc. The vast majority of mainstream hip-hop, however, like the vast majority of mainstream country, metal, indie folk, etc. is worthless, materialistic garbage.

In the early 90s, when hip-hop and especially gangsta rap were first going mainstream, mainstream hip-hop was soaked with intelligently worded subversive commentary on all sorts of political subjects, however, for the most part, it was still far from "Leftist", unless you think perpetuating black-market capitalism, and engaging in random acts of patriarchal terrorism is "Leftist".

[Jethro Tull]

The proverbial player was sucked into the proverbial game by forces beyond his own control, and cannot escape thanks to a racist system set up for the specific purpose of keeping him downtrodden.

Going off of standard gangsta rap tropes, the proverbial player is someone who has worked his way up to at least the middle-management of the black-market drug industry and is willing to violently control and exploit women for further economic gain.

As a communist i don't view the "black market" as particularly different from any other realm of capitalist industry. There are the bottom-rung workers of the illegal drug industry, (themselves seldom glamorized in mainstream gangsta-rap) who encounter most of the occupational hazards while never being able to afford expensive cars, jewelry, etc. (prizes glamorized in the vast majority of FM radio hip-hop) There are the capitalists, of course, and then there are the middle-managers and labor aristocrats. Most "gangsta-rap", especially made since the late 90s, is either bourgeois or petit-bourgeois art in this sense.

"sucked into the [...] game by forces beyond his own control, and cannot escape thanks to a racist system set up for the specific purpose of keeping him downtrodden." These words could just as perfectly describe the conditions of a black cop. However, recognizing that our lives are controlled by capitalists does not eschew the necessity of individual responsibility, it enhances it.

[Uncle Ho]

Going off of standard gangsta rap tropes, the proverbial player is someone who has worked his way up to at least the middle-management of the black-market drug industry and is willing to violently control and exploit women for further economic gain.

Would you rather they starve? They have no job opportunities. Their schools are horrible, many of the young people have unstable families and even housing is constantly being hijacked and destroyed for the profits of the capitalist landlords.

As Biggie once said, "On the streets it's a short stop, either you're slinging crack rock or you've got a wicked jump shot"


As a communist i don't view the "black market" as particularly different from any other realm of capitalist industry. There are the bottom-rung workers of the illegal drug industry, (themselves seldom glamorized in mainstream gangsta-rap) who encounter most of the occupational hazards while never being able to afford expensive cars, jewelry, etc. (prizes glamorized in the vast majority of FM radio hip-hop) There are the capitalists, of course, and then there are the middle-managers and labor aristocrats. Most "gangsta-rap", especially made since the late 90s, is either bourgeois or petit-bourgeois art in this sense.

People want what they do not have.

The oppressed minorities of this nation do not have wealth and power, so it becomes a topic of their art.

I'm sure the system's desire to keep them dumb and poor isn't helping much here, either.

That being said, there is still lots of rap about social and political issues, you just have to look for it these days. The record companies promote people who say nothing and tell people to do nothing but consume because they want to maintain their own positions, and social awareness is a threat to that.



"sucked into the [...] game by forces beyond his own control, and cannot escape thanks to a racist system set up for the specific purpose of keeping him downtrodden." These words could just as perfectly describe the conditions of a black cop. However, recognizing that our lives are controlled by capitalists does not eschew the necessity of individual responsibility, it enhances it.

A black cop chose that lifestyle. Policemen must attend at least 2 years of schooling, after all. Not only does this usually exempt one from being really oppressed, as they can afford the outrageous fees of the American for-profit educational system, but it means it was a conscious choice.

Being born in the ghetto was not.

[N3wday]

ran into this some months ago. i found it to be pretty interesting..

http://democracyandhiphop.blogspot.com/

particularly essays like this - http://democracyandhiphop.blogspot.com/2005/04/dialectics-of-hip-hop-notes-on-k-bests_07.html

[Radical]

As a Rapper I can honestly say Rap can be dangerous to anybody, not just the youth.

But like Rap, anything can be dangerous to anybody when used in a certain way.

The whole reason I started rapping was to put a message across and teach others, like most Political Rappers.

[Jethro Tull]

Would you rather they starve?

So, the choice is between starving and exploiting others? Can't "overthrow capitalism and create the conditions of communism" be a choice?


They have no job opportunities. Their schools are horrible, many of the young people have unstable families and even housing is constantly being hijacked and destroyed for the profits of the capitalist landlords.

This is irrelevant. You're confusing me with someone who needs to be convinced that capitalism is bad. I want to abolish employment, centralized education, patriarchal family-systems, landlords, etc.


People want what they do not have.

The oppressed minorities of this nation do not have wealth and power, so it becomes a topic of their art.

Ok, but how is that "Leftist"? By the same argument, The Lonely Island's "I'm On a Boat" is a song with a Leftist message.

As anti-capitalists this is an attitude we must combat, not rationalize as somehow progressive.


I'm sure the system's desire to keep them dumb and poor isn't helping much here, either.

And commercial music is an expression of that desire.


That being said, there is still lots of rap about social and political issues, you just have to look for it these days.

I'm well aware, however, it's an underground musical scene, not a mainstream phenomenon. It's sort of like if I were to argue that "heavy metal is Leftist" because of the lyrical messages of Wolves in the Throne Room and Heaven Shall Burn, when the vast majority of people would rather listen to the new Metallica release instead.


A black cop chose that lifestyle.

So do pimps and drug dealers, my friend.


Policemen must attend at least 2 years of schooling, after all.

This isn't exactly true, at least not for an entry-level position.


Not only does this usually exempt one from being really oppressed, as they can afford the outrageous fees of the American for-profit educational system

That's incredibly stupid. The majority of college students in the U.S. are poor and oppressed. Are you not aware of student loans, financial aid, etc.?


but it means it was a conscious choice.

As is profiting off the black drug market, as is choosing to be a pimp.


Being born in the ghetto was not.

Not everyone who is "born in the ghetto" lives the life exemplified in most commercial gangsta rap. It's a little racist to even suggest that, actually...

[Uncle Ho]

So, the choice is between starving and exploiting others? Can't "overthrow capitalism and create the conditions of communism" be a choice?

Seriously?

Not only has this been tried (unsuccessfully), but do you REALLY think that an oppressed minority, with no popular support and a system designed to destroy them could somehow overthrow the capitalist oppressor?


This is irrelevant. You're confusing me with someone who needs to be convinced that capitalism is bad. I want to abolish employment, centralized education, patriarchal family-systems, landlords, etc.That's great, but what you want to do is not helping the people who struggle each and every day to survive.


Ok, but how is that "Leftist"? By the same argument, The Lonely Island's "I'm On a Boat" is a song with a Leftist message.

As anti-capitalists this is an attitude we must combat, not rationalize as somehow progressive.T-Paine is a perfect example of what happens when an artform is hijacked by corporate intrests. He has nothing to say and is satisfied being a nice little minstrel show to amuse massa's children.


And commercial music is an expression of that desire.By and large, it's an expression of the desire to defeat the system designed to oppress them by achieving the social status that the white bourgeoisie so desperately want to keep them away from.

Few rappers are socialists, but most of them have a pretty revolutionary attitude.


I'm well aware, however, it's an underground musical scene, not a mainstream phenomenon. It's sort of like if I were to argue that "heavy metal is Leftist" because of the lyrical messages of Wolves in the Throne Room and Heaven Shall Burn, when the vast majority of people would rather listen to the new Metallica release instead. Actually, "underground" rap is just as bad in this regard, now that it's filled with bourgeoisie acts like Aesop Rock, who have stripped any message the music once had to make it more accessible to white racists.

Even "mainstream" acts still have a strong message.


So do pimps and drug dealers, my friend.Yes, they made a choice to not starve to death by pursuing what is quite possibly their only job opportunity.


This isn't exactly true, at least not for an entry-level position.Maybe not for meter maids, but beat cops require some schooling.


That's incredibly stupid. The majority of college students in the U.S. are poor and oppressed. Are you not aware of student loans, financial aid, etc.?No, I hate to break this to you, but if you can go to college, you are by definition not oppressed. Student loans are just giving you some leeway in the repayment of your valuable degree in proletariat oppression, once you have a job counting your master's imaginary money for 8 hours a day.


As is profiting off the black drug market, as is choosing to be a pimp.Let me guess.

You were born into a middle class family. You had a good school to attend, good parents who purchased a good home and good food for you to eat. Your neighborhood was primarily white, ergo was well patrolled by police, keeping the rate of violent crime down, and had nice green lawns due to the diligent home owner's association. You never left this neighborhood, due to your own ingrained (probably latently racist) fears, and saw those less fortunate than you only bundled up and flithy, begging for change in parking lots, and you always ignored them. Once you grew up, you attended a nice college that you were able to get into thanks to your attendance in a good school. You then pretended to be poor despite having all your basic needs paid for in your tuition, which was covered in loans you were able to then pay back because you got a nice chusy job sitting around printing papers and counting money.

That is really the only way you could be this ignorant of the plight of the poor.


Not everyone who is "born in the ghetto" lives the life exemplified in most commercial gangsta rap. It's a little racist to even suggest that, actually...So not only do you not know many poor people, but you don't listen to much rap, either.

[ADL]

if you went into a modern school today and talked to the students most are wanna be gangster. Most Gangsta Rap does cause a stupidity. Did you ever hear the news about that kid who shot him self in the cheek because he wanted to prove to his girlfriend that he had gang ties. If gangs weren't exalted he would not have done this.

[Uncle Ho]

Gangs were exalted a long time before rap. Ever heard of Mario Puzo?

The only difference is those gangsters were almost all white, whereas they have a far more diverse ethnic background these days.

[scarletghoul]

2tqOgAIg0gA

[Weezer]

I happen tothink it is extremely dangerous, especially in places with downtrodden and embittered people.
When a youth is surrounded by crime, poverty and is feeling trapped, rap music, which often sponsors black on back genocide, drug dealing and demotes womens status in society.
I myself have members of my family who have grown up in gang culture, been shot and my cousin was always in and out of secure units.
Before he would go out to rob or steal or do something like that, he would listen to rap to phsyce himself up.
He also thought he was justified in doing what he did as he felt capitalism was responsible, so rather than agree to the rules of a capitalist societey, he would make his own rules.
He has since rejected all criminal activity and after borrowing communist manifesto and aquiring george jacksons blood in my eye, he has turned his life around, although he is somewhat of a black nationalist, which i consider hugely dissapointing.
He however, says he thinks rap music is a hugely negative effect on youths, especially black males, as he said, when he was looking up to rappers like tupac, bigie smalls, ice t, the main theme is murder, hate and total disunity except with members of your gang.

Do you think he is over reacting or could he have a good point.
Let me know your position comrades, i am sure it will be a devicive subject.

You're harmful to not just youth, but everyone.

[Invincible Summer]

if you went into a modern school today and talked to the students most are wanna be gangster. Most Gangsta Rap does cause a stupidity. Did you ever hear the news about that kid who shot him self in the cheek because he wanted to prove to his girlfriend that he had gang ties. If gangs weren't exalted he would not have done this.

You've done this? Walked into all "modern" (as opposed to Renaissance? :rolleyes:) schools and asked all the students if they want to be gangsters?

And your example is one extreme case of an idiot.

The problem isn't with mainstream music exalting gangs, but rather the conditions of society that allow/promote gangs to be formed

[Robespierre2.0]

You can't trash an entire genre, but I'd certainly say that mainstream rap these days is reactionary garbage, and, I think, serves as a way for white bourgeois society to weaken the black community by creating a false dichotomy where blacks can either be an 'uncle tom' or adhere to an anti-social 'gangster' stereotype.

In fact, I'd say rap these days is basically white suburban teenager fantasy music, that happens to perpetuate long-standing preconcieved notions of what black people are like. The fact that the musicians happen to be of african-american descent doesn't really matter- The music is basically churned out by white record executives for a privileged, white audience.

[BrokenDown]

Music can absolutely be a source of connection for some people. But it certainly does not MAKE someone do one thing or another. As for children being exposed to certain lifestyles, it's a process of learning. Maybe some lyrics are INAPPROPRIATE for children but wouldn't some classic rock songs or heavy metal have inappropriate lyrics as well?

[Lodestar]

It's not the genre of music. It's the overall message. The vast majority of mainstream music reeks of apathy, hedonism, and a litany of petty bourgeois fetishes. The message much of hip hop has for young people is not at all conducive to a revolutionary consciousness (although this was not always the case.).

There are, of course, a considerable number of exceptions, but I stand by my judgment of the vast majority of mainstream music.

[Jethro Tull]

Seriously?

Yes, I know the feeling, sometimes when you're reading RevLeft, it's hard to take the idea of communism seriously.


Not only has this been tried (unsuccessfully)Not by the people who are selling crystal meth and crack cocaine to their friends and neighbors. Not by the people who are using the threat of physical violence to extort money from prostitutes. These people are workers, but they are also our class-enemy. Just like cops.


do you REALLY think that an oppressed minority, with no popular support and a system designed to destroy them could somehow overthrow the capitalist oppressor?Yes, completely obliterating the capitalist mode of production from every inch of the globe is daunting work. I agree. But we have to start somewhere. A poor black or Latino neighborhood in Chicago or New York does not need the "popular support" of racist rednecks in Arkansas to occupy and reclaim their neighborhood.

Yes, the system is designed to destroy all of us, except for the small minority who benefit. How does listening to and promoting music with worthless cultural values help the situation in any way?


That's great, but what you want to do is not helping the people who struggle each and every day to survive.There's no simple answer to that question. Nor is this thread really the place to go into that in detail. But as it pertains to being a musician, especially within a specific genre of music mostly oriented towards lyrics, a first step would be to stop promoting cultural values that reinforce capitalism, as many rappers do.


T-Paine is a perfect example of what happens when an artform is hijacked by corporate intrests. He has nothing to say and is satisfied being a nice little minstrel show to amuse massa's children.Exactly my point. In my mind, Jay-Z, 50 Cent, Kanye West, Common, etc. are all no different. Hence why all intelligent musicians influenced by hip-hop must rebel against the conventions of mainstream hip-hop.


By and large, it's an expression of the desire to defeat the system designed to oppress them by achieving the social status that the white bourgeoisie so desperately want to keep them away from. Few rappers are socialists, but most of them have a pretty revolutionary attitude.Honestly, what reality you live in?

Do you honestly think "the system" still gives a shit about keeping individual blacks (and other people of color) from achieving economic and political power? I live in a capitalist state where the president is black. "The system" has always allowed individual members of collectively oppressed groups to achieve a certain amount of political, economic, and social status. Afterall, that just grants "the system" more legitimacy.

How does driving a car, owning massive amounts of gold jewelry, and dealing cocaine in any way "defeat the system"? That's exactly how the fucking system wants you to live your life.

Under your definition of "revolutionary", Oprah and Bill Cosby are the greatest revolutionaries there are.


Actually, "underground" rap is just as bad in this regard, now that it's filled with bourgeoisie acts like Aesop Rock, who have stripped any message the music once had to make it more accessible to white racists.Uhh...OK, I wouldn't really consider that "underground" then, any more than I would consider The Shins underground...


Even "mainstream" acts still have a strong message.Well, there's lots of mainstream music that's interesting, and some of it even has lyrical messages that Leftist radicals would find copacetic. That's certainly not unique to hip-hop. You can observe the same phenomenon in hard-rock groups with a mostly working-class white audience, such as Disturbed and System of a Down. Capitalists have no problem making money off of rebel music.

The majority of mainstream music, including hip-hop, is still apolitical shit that encourages the masses to act like irresponsible, nihilistic assholes, though.


Yes, they made a choice to not starve to death by pursuing what is quite possibly their only job opportunity.So? The poachers in Africa and Asia who are exterminating the remaining elephant, tiger, and rhino populations so they can sell parts of their bodies to rich yuppies are also "ma[king] a choice not to starve to death". So are cops. So are soldiers in the US and Israeli armies.

If I went out into the streets and started threatening to rape people if they didn't pay me money, would that be excusable too? Anything a working-class person does to make money must be ethical, according to your reason....


Maybe not for meter maids, but beat cops require some schooling.I live in the rural south. There are no "beat cops" around here...most cops on patrol don't have very much secondary education, if any. I can't speak for where you live, but I think you're exaggerating the socio-economic affluence of cops to preserve your black-and-white worldview.

Also, what's the difference between a "meter maid" and a "beat cop"?


if you can go to college, you are by definition not oppressed.Wow, so if a woman is going to college, and she is raped, she hasn't experienced a form of a patriarchal oppression?

The people working at McDonalds who didn't go to college are oppressed, but the ones who did aren't?

A black student who gets called a "nigger" by an intimidating mob of white peers isn't being racially oppressed?

Can your rhetoric get any stupider?

(Students aren't oppressed, but big-time drug dealers who drive expensive sports cars are. :laugh:)


Student loans are just giving you some leeway in the repayment of your valuable degree in proletariat oppressionI could be wrong but I don't think most students pay back their loans. (You're also conveniently ignoring financial aid programs)

You've bought into the capitalist myth about college, you're just viewing the myth through a (vulgar) anti-capitalist lens. The vast majority of people who go to college, in the US or any other country, will never be in a position to oppress the proletariat. In fact, if you knew anything about how our society actually operates, you'd realize that college degrees in the US are becoming more and more meaningless.

The truth is that colleges are mostly just an excuse to scam working people out of thousands of dollars and years of hard work. They're not empowering in any way, just like drug-dealing isn't empowering in any way. If you honestly think escaping oppression is as simple as going to college, you live in a wonderful fantasy-world.


Let me guess. [blah blah blah]You guessed completely wrong. Are you now resorting to fallacious ad hominem arguments? If so, you might as well just save us both the time and embarrassment and concede the argument to me.


That is really the only way you could be this ignorant of the plight of the poor."plight of the poor"? What are you, Mother Theresa?

You're the one who is ignoring how the black-market drug industry exploits poor addicts. You're also ignoring how "pimping" exploits poor women. You're also ignoring how music that promotes consumerism and the accumulation of wealth exploits everyone stupid enough to embrace these cultural values.


So not only do you not know many poor people, but you don't listen to much rap, either.I listen to a lot of hip-hop. I love Tupac, NWA, some of Dre's early stuff. Dead Prez is great and so is The Coup. I'm just not childish enough to confuse silly musical subcultures with politics.

[Labor Shall Rule]

It's not the genre of music. It's the overall message. The vast majority of mainstream music reeks of apathy, hedonism, and a litany of petty bourgeois fetishes. The message much of hip hop has for young people is not at all conducive to a revolutionary consciousness (although this was not always the case.).

There are, of course, a considerable number of exceptions, but I stand by my judgment of the vast majority of mainstream music.

Hedonism is a "petty bourgeois fetish"? I'm pretty sure getting fucked up is not something that is class-inclusive.

[Jethro Tull]

Gangs were exalted a long time before rap. Ever heard of Mario Puzo?

I also find The Godfather to be offensive, despite its aesthetic brilliance. I certainly wouldn't claim The Godfather was "Leftist".

And just because it's wrong for Mario Puzo to romanticize organized crime, doesn't somehow make it right for Dr. Dre to do the same.


The only difference is those gangsters were almost all white, whereas they have a far more diverse ethnic background these days.

Your understanding of American history is slightly confused.

Sicilian immigrants such as Vito Corleone were definitely not considered "white" by the cultural values of turn-of-the-century America, even though their descendants are considered white now.

To my knowledge, underground capitalism (a.k.a. "organized crime") has always been "ethnically diverse" - the poorest members of society have always come from oppressed ethnic groups, and black-market capitalists have always recruited the poorest of the poor to be their saps and peons. The demographics of organized crime have obviously changed, but that is more a reflection of how integrated into middle-class society most southern Italians, Jews, East-Europeans, Irish, etc. in the US have become.

If you look into folk music from, say the 20s, you'll find that both "colored" music such as blues and "white" music such as country (the record-industry mostly conspired to segregate folk traditions and promote the artificial division between "blues" and "country" music, but I digress) you will see glorification of criminal lifestyles across the board, not confined to any specific ethnic or cultural group. You are correct that gangsterism as a cultural value in popular music is nothing new, I still fail to see how it is progressive or revolutionary, although many comrades seem to disagree.

[Lodestar]

Hedonism is a "petty bourgeois fetish"? I'm pretty sure getting fucked up is not something that is class-inclusive.

hedonism, AND a litany of petty bourgeois fetishes. I wasn't saying hedonism was a petty bourgeois fetish. I apologize for my writing, I sometimes form awkward sentence structures.

[Yazman]

This sort of discussion should be in the music forum.

[Radical]

This sort of discussion should be in the music forum.

No it shouldent. The question of weather Rap music can be harmful to society makes it become a political issue.