How ingrained is capitalist propaganda into the American psyche?

[RadioRaheem84]

The Citibank memo that described the US as a plutonomy.

Documentaries left and right about corruption in politics and Wall Street.

Liberal Rich Boy Jamie Johnson documenting the opinion and lifestyles of the super rich. A lot of them admitting that the poor do not have a chance in this political-economic climate.

And now Michael Moore comes out with an amazing film about the utter theft committed by Wall Street on the American people.

...and still a huge portion of the citizens of this nation defend the system. A lot of them still defend free enterprise. A lot them still think that less regulation is needed, not more. A lot them agree that there is corruption in politics but that there is nothing inherently wrong with the system. A lot of them still believe that they will strike it rich. A lot them still hold on the dillusion that they will be like the rich. A lot of them still believe that you just need to vote for candidates like Obama to fix things.

I just don't get it. What will it take to get the people mobilized? Are they scared? Are they afraid to lose what they've already gained? How long will it take for them to realize that we're fighting wars with a broke economy and that the people who robbed us blind are in charge of high economic positions in the Federal Government!

[Tatarin]

I can't speak for Americans, but I believe that hope and change is a big part of the view on society. European, or at least Scandinavian, often have a more based outlook in "the numbers" I'd say.

I also think that they have hope in each person, that each individual has the power to do things right. The "Founding Fathers" - a small group of freedom lovers - managed to defeat the great British empire. Theodore Roosevelt, who "fixed" the American economy. John F. Kennedy, or Richard Nixon who managed to corrupt the whole system all by himself.

It is that outlook that needs to be changed. The lie of the one-strong-person.

Unfortunately (or fortunately, if you will) most revolutions happened when the country was in total dismay, or near to (Russia, China, Germany etc.). The American outlook will most likely change when its time comes, when people look away from the U.S. and to another supernation, perhaps China.

[RadioRaheem84]

Hmm. I hope it comes when there still something left in this nation worthy of saving.

Also, what is the base outlook that you speak of in Europe? In the US, we're reaching a cynical level of distrust toward mainstream politicians. Obama was rare in this case considering that he stopped a revolution of sorts when elected. If he was not on the national stage then we probably would've taken to the streets. I mean if the bailout wasn't enough of an awakening, I don't know what it will take to awaken the public.

[hefty_lefty]

Raheem, the 'american dream' is the greatest cultivation of people's aspirations perhaps ever to be seen in history.
Our psyche's are entrenched in the perfect family unit.
A house, a wife, a few kids, a dog, preferably a garage and a lawn to mow and water, as many cars that will fit on your driveway and a box of watered down beer.
Talkin' 'bout your local professional sports team, what wax you use to make your car so goddamn shiny, wether you caught the news last night, and how you heard that they're callin for rain on thursday.

Your family's wellbeing is number one on your list and you'd be willing to runover anyone that may threaten your happy little existence.
Comradery? Saying hi to your neighbour with a smile and a wave while thinking about how much of an asshole he is, who does he think he is, with his inground pool and hot wife? Dick.

The american dream is only good from afar and even then it shows how each family is focused on itself rather than the well being of the entire nation.
There are alot of good people out there, but even most of them get swept along with the current of capitalist circumstance.

Sorry if I got off track Raheem, just a late night rant.

And Tatarin, I hope you are right, I hope the people's minds can yet be opened to socialist thought, even if it out of desperation.

[RadioRaheem84]

You're right hefty.

I was always left scratching my head as to why my girlfriends sister bought a house when the economy was in the dumps, she just turned 21 and is taking care of two kids. She's in a divorce right now, can barely afford the house payments, property taxes are a killer, yet refuses to leave her home, sell it and live in an apartment.

This is the irrationality of the American mindset. She was told that she needed a home. She was told that the home would be a better enviroment for her little boys. She understood that the next rite of passage was the purchasing and "owning" of a home. A luxury she is trying to maintain at 12 bucks an hour! She was probably sold on the idea that the house was cheap and that it might be worth something in the near future once the economy recovers. She was told that if she remained in an apartment that she would be throwing away money instead of buying a house in which she could invest in.

Yet, my girlfriend and I are looked at as the weird ones for splitting the rent on a modest apartment, working two part time jobs while we both use the financial aid system to go to college and help pay for the remainder of our expenses.

[hefty_lefty]

Blame the parents. My dad told me the best investment is a house, you can't lose.
In fact, immigrants ate up the american dream like it was their salvation and it was thrust upon me like some coming of age ceremony.
Now I'm living 'the dream' and all I want is to walk away from it...but I can't, and it makes me oh so mad :cursing:.

[Rise Above]

I find the main problem is that people simply aren't exposed to alternative forms of economic organization. To most, capitalism is "just the way it is." It's especially evident when socialism is equated with "totalitarianism", as if it were a particular political system operating within a capitalist framework rather than an entirely separate economic theory. People can't wrap their heads around workplaces not having a "boss," or not receiving a paycheque at the end of the week, etcetera. That's how it has always been for them; that's how it always was for their parents, and so on. Capitalism is as natural to them as eating and breathing. People aren't afraid of anything, they're just ignorant. This is why, with the economy tanking, you've a handful of Americans calling for less regulation, and a handful calling for more. Abolishing capitalism is out of the question because capitalism is simply mankind's natural economic condition, and so it becomes a matter of this capitalism versus that capitalism.

Approach a co-worker next time you've the opportunity and explain workers' self-management to them without actually using the 'S-word' and they'll agree wholeheartedly just about every time. We just need to let people in on the fact that telling our capitalist bosses to GTFO and running the show ourselves is not out of the question; the rest will be history. Nobody wants a boss, nobody wants to work their hands to the bone for forty hours a week just to evade non-existence.

[Bill Hadnot]

The capitalist ruling class have firm control of the public opinion-molding machine (TV, newspapers, textbooks, everything that people look to when judging what is "normal") here in the empire and obviously implement it to serve their interests. Poor people can't afford "free" speech under capitalism, and that is among the reasons why a vanguard party is needed if you plan to take on this dictatorship of the capitalist ruling class.

[Tatarin]

Hmm. I hope it comes when there still something left in this nation worthy of saving.

Think of it this way: as long as there are humans there is always something worth saving.


Also, what is the base outlook that you speak of in Europe? In the US, we're reaching a cynical level of distrust toward mainstream politicians.

I was pointing out that Europeans are more, if I can put it right, material about their lives. Or, "they don't dream as much as Americans do", so to say. That is not to say that Europeans do not think or "dream" of wealth, just that there is more awareness of their current situation. Most of the criticism that I hear of reak of returning to the old "real" social democratic way of life 30 years ago.

Another point is that individualism is not as highly regarded as in America - which is not the same as people not caring about surveillance or their own families, I say it is more that people are aware that one person can not do everything. Our prime minister isn't the problem, but the current government is. The contrary seems to be the point of view in the U.S., that "the group" is itself lazy and oppressive to anyone wanting to "be left alone", not to speak of all the bureaucracy created by large groups (such as governments).

It is however not my opinion that Americans are different in that way, it is relentless propaganda aimed at the people, and it is also happening here. The group is clumsy, bureaucratic, and lazy as it only wants taxes, and protects itself by oppressing "free minds". The individual is good because it can survive on its own (it has to, no one will feed it), protect itself and it's eventual family, and can accomplish many things (which is proven by pre-industrial farmers, hunters etc).

This thought is even, in a way, hinting on that democracy, while a noble thought, is not working because there will still be a government, and all governments are bad.

Again, this is how I believe the flag-waiving around people such as J.F. Kennedy, Obama and even Ron Paul arises - belief in the individual. Paradoxial enough, trust is given to the individual to change a whole system, which also means that that system is working.

I believe you could find a lot of the individualist thinking if you look to such places as conspiracy theories. Perhaps this could also explain why groups such as the 9/11 "truthers" dismiss evidence of terrorism and trust a few "professional" individuals.

[RadioRaheem84]

Approach a co-worker next time you've the opportunity and explain workers' self-management to them without actually using the 'S-word' and they'll agree wholeheartedly just about every time. We just need to let people in on the fact that telling our capitalist bosses to GTFO and running the show ourselves is not out of the question; the rest will be history. Nobody wants a boss, nobody wants to work their hands to the bone for forty hours a week just to evade non-existence.

I did just this today at dinner with a rabidly right winger friend. He ate it up and said I needed a soap box so people can hear. The worker likes to hear that and agrees with it all, but he is so used to capitalism that any hint or mention of the state makes him think of gulags and taxes.



I believe you could find a lot of the individualist thinking if you look to such places as conspiracy theories. Perhaps this could also explain why groups such as the 9/11 "truthers" dismiss evidence of terrorism and trust a few "professional" individuals.

The real right wing in this country, not the capitalist class that poses as right wing populists on tv and radio, is very pro-conspiracy. To the point where I think that a portion of the country is outright nuts and desperate, like a third world nations begging for salvation.

Not that there aren't left wing conspiracies but at least they're grounded in some basis of reality because they question the system. The right wing ones do not and insist that its outside forces that want to bring down the system as the system is holy and mandated by God.

[NecroCommie]

How ingrained is capitalist propaganda into the American psyche?

Very well

[KurtFF8]

It is indeed quite ingrained but at the same time I don't think as much so as we think. For example recent polls show declining support for capitalism and growing support for socialism.
Source (http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/general_politics/april_2009/just_53_say_capitalism_better_than_socialism)

[chegitz guevara]

America is, balls to bones, a capitalist society. We have no feudal holdovers, we were founded by capitalists.

Yet, it takes constant propaganda bombarding us to keep from getting rid of it. We have messages blaring at us from every source, America is the best of the best, everyone wants to be American, we have the best of everything (and if you don't, it's because you're a LOSER, you didn't work hard enough or smart enough!).

Really, our system of propaganda makes the Nazis look like rank amateurs.

[RadioRaheem84]

How do Americans justify the contradiction of believing in democracy and free enterprise? Do they not understand the history of free enterprise? The 12 hour work days for people young and old, male and female, children in textile factories, coal mines, steel mills, etc. ? No social security, pensions, minimum wage, etc.

Do they not know that these came about as a result of the battle against free enterprise by the workers and then the politicians got involved?


I am confused as to how they see that argument?

Then again, Milton Friedman once said that all the goodies we received (which he later rails against) during that time and the standard of living, came about as a result of exploitation. So in essence, if you exploit people like what he advocated in Chile, then democracy will flourish. When questioned about Pinochet and his support, he answered that as a result of his exploitative reforms, democracy was later restored.

[chegitz guevara]

How do Americans justify the contradiction of believing in democracy and free enterprise?

People have an amazing capacity for holding contradictory beliefs, like physicists who believe in the supernatural. Americans are taught the free enterprise is inseparable from democracy, and vice versa.


Do they not understand the history of free enterprise? The 12 hour work days for people young and old, male and female, children in textile factories, coal mines, steel mills, etc. ? No social security, pensions, minimum wage, etc.

[quote]Do they not know that these came about as a result of the battle against free enterprise by the workers and then the politicians got involved?

No, they don't. They are taught that these victories were bestowed on them by good Democrats.

[RadioRaheem84]

No, they don't. They are taught that these victories were bestowed on them by good Democrats.

Even they are taught this, doesn't this still say that we received a decent standard of living because of legislative acts enacted by politicians against free enterprise?

[Stranger Than Paradise]

I think it is very heavily ingrained. There may be stigma around the word Communist in other places but no other place has more stigma than the USA. There is a hatred of an enemy created by Cold War propoganda. People don't actually know what it is they are against but being told over and over Communism is Evil has had some effect.

[NecroCommie]

Even they are taught this, doesn't this still say that we received a decent standard of living because of legislative acts enacted by politicians against free enterprise?
Politicians would have never even figured to suggest such a thing if there weren't a wide mass demand for such reforms, preferably under the threath of major strikes or even revolution. Politicians have never changed history, they have merely verified what the masses already demand.

[RadioRaheem84]

Politicians would have never even figured to suggest such a thing if there weren't a wide mass demand for such reforms, preferably under the threath of major strikes or even revolution. Politicians have never changed history, they have merely verified what the masses already demand.

I understand that but can't the masses today realize that legislative action was taken against free enterprise at the time?



I think it is very heavily ingrained. There may be stigma around the word Communist in other places but no other place has more stigma than the USA. There is a hatred of an enemy created by Cold War propoganda. People don't actually know what it is they are against but being told over and over Communism is Evil has had some effect.

What makes the US unique is that it citizens fervently defend the system. Some of them would die for it.

[RadioRaheem84]

My girlfriend is what I would call the apathetic apolitical American. She knows nothing about socialism except that it means long lines and anti-freedom. Her father owns a business, a small construction company, so she grew up in a pretty upper middle class neighborhood. Talks about workers taking over the means of production hit her on a personal note. She claims she's a moderate (but to me that's code for I don't know anything about politics) but will always take the side of the capitalist.

I have shown her clips of lectures from Michael Parenti, taken her to see Michael Moore's new movie, etc. All of the basic simple stuff that is in plain-speak so she can understand. And even though she doesn't understand, she still thinks that I keep showing her propaganda.

That is how I think most of the American people are. Especially those in her class; white, middle class, Republican.

You can show them straight facts all you want. They look at that and even though they cannot argue against it, they just think that instinctively its propaganda. It's a culture thing, not an unwillingness to see truth.

[Jimmie Higgins]

I just don't get it. What will it take to get the people mobilized? Are they scared? Are they afraid to lose what they've already gained? How long will it take for them to realize that we're fighting wars with a broke economy and that the people who robbed us blind are in charge of high economic positions in the Federal Government!

Q: How ingrained are capitalist ideas into the American psyche?

A: a mile wide and an inch deep.

The reason the US works so hard to promote their propaganda and constrain the debate - make sure that the healthcare discussion is "public option" vs some other non-threat to the insurance industry.

Americans are definitely afraid and, to crudely papaphrase Malcom X, that kind of fear in a population tends to produce a kind of identification with the same system that oppresses you. Just look at the auto-workers volunteering wage-cuts in the hope of bribing the company away from declaring bankruptcy and nullifying union contracts. When that Professor was arrested in his own house a few months ago I remember hearing a black announcer on the radio saying that the professor should have known better and that every black parent teaches their children not to look cops in the eyes or talk-back to them... the commentator said that was about respecting police officers, but that sounds more like understandable fear of provoking racist cops.

But mostly, people identify against their interests in the system because they do not believe that anything better is possible. This is the subjective part where we as radicals come in. if we can show people what kind of political understanding and tactics are needed to win, people will become more bold in making their own demands. I remember reading about the Paris Commune (or maybe it was the French Revolution) that people were willing to fight and die for it when they knew that this other way of living was possible, but once it looked like the commune was lost, people also lost the will to keep fighting because now they had to start thinking about appeasing their landloard when he returned and figuring out where to get a job once the rich returned the status quo to the city.

Revolutionaries are always going to be a minority until the revolution is basically upon us.

[RadioRaheem84]

Q: How ingrained are capitalist ideas into the American psyche?

A: a mile wide and an inch deep.

The reason the US works so hard to promote their propaganda and constrain the debate - make sure that the healthcare discussion is "public option" vs some other non-threat to the insurance industry.

Americans are definitely afraid and, to crudely papaphrase Malcom X, that kind of fear in a population tends to produce a kind of identification with the same system that oppresses you. Just look at the auto-workers volunteering wage-cuts in the hope of bribing the company away from declaring bankruptcy and nullifying union contracts. When that Professor was arrested in his own house a few months ago I remember hearing a black announcer on the radio saying that the professor should have known better and that every black parent teaches their children not to look cops in the eyes or talk-back to them... the commentator said that was about respecting police officers, but that sounds more like understandable fear of provoking racist cops.

But mostly, people identify against their interests in the system because they do not believe that anything better is possible. This is the subjective part where we as radicals come in. if we can show people what kind of political understanding and tactics are needed to win, people will become more bold in making their own demands. I remember reading about the Paris Commune (or maybe it was the French Revolution) that people were willing to fight and die for it when they knew that this other way of living was possible, but once it looked like the commune was lost, people also lost the will to keep fighting because now they had to start thinking about appeasing their landloard when he returned and figuring out where to get a job once the rich returned the status quo to the city.

Revolutionaries are always going to be a minority until the revolution is basically upon us.



But just what is and who is the "system"? We talk a lot about the system, but exactly what is it and who runs it?

Right Wingers talk about an elite, like Nixon who used to ram on about an elite and the system too. Only they are disgruntled about the fact that they are not running it and think the people that are are running it like "wussies".

The left talks about the establishment, the status quo, the man, etc. But just who is this man, this establishment? Who is running things here?

Both right and left talk about this mysterious system, man, establishment. Just what is it and how is it defined properly?

[Jimmie Higgins]

As I define it:

The US ruling class is the elite of businesspeople, military, and government.
The establishment as I see it are generally people serving the ruling class so it's not just the elite business but all levels of business regardless of their centrality to actual decision-making; politicians of the Democrats and Republicans, the media, academics, and think-tank people are all part of the establishment unless they are openly in opposition to it.

There are many dark rooms where decisions are made (no longer smoke-filled though) but more often than not, decisions are made more informally and innocuously and even right out in the open.

Often industries or even single large companies just write legislation and hand it off to politicians who introduce it as a bill. How were things like taking universal healthcare off the table before Congress began discussing reform options? The Insurance and Healthcare industries sent people to talk to politicians, the politicians got together and set the limits and terms of the refom discussion because these politicians know that they are here to manage what's best for capitalism, not to do whatever they want or their voters want (unless forced to).

Does that make sense? If you want to know specifically who the individuals who make up these ruling, decision-making, groups in capitalism, probably the best way to find out is by seeing who representing what industries or sectors of the capitalist market write op-eds in The Economist or the Wall Street Journal or elite national defense journals.

[RadioRaheem84]

Does the system even have a political ideology that can be based as either left or right? I mean they dislike right wingers like Nixon or Buchanan as much as they hate left wingers like Chomsky.

They hate Islamic fundamentalists as much as they hate left wing revolutionaries. Is the establishment only beholden to corporate interests?

[Jimmie Higgins]

Does the system even have a political ideology that can be based as either left or right?They definitely have common interests, but as Marx described, international ruling capitalists are like a band of warring brothers.

They definately also have disagreements in tactics: how best to run capitalism in a crisis, try and pay for it through austerity measures, protectionism, Keynesian policies? How best to carry out their imperialist aims... cowboy invasions, "humanitarian" UN invasions, proxy troops or imperial army.

Right now, the more open (than Bush) Obama admin. is argueing about the best policy for Afghanistan... 60,000 more troops, concentrate on building up puppet Afghan troops, getting more NATO involvement and so on.


I mean they dislike right wingers like Nixon or Buchanan as much as they hate left wingers like Chomsky. Well they dislike Buchanan right now, but if the world economy froze up more and other powers began enacting protectionist measures, then there would be much more ruling-class support for Buchanan's xenophobic protectionism. Besides, I don't think there is much comparison... no one in the mainstream media asks what Chomsky thinks about this or that issue, no media outlet (aside from left-wing press) seeks out op-eds or interviews from Chomsky. Whereas, Buchanan has been given a platform to spout his views and scapegoating for the last 20 years at least and Nixon was VP and Pres!

The US establishment even briefly flirted with David Duke's (KKK) attempt at mainstream acceptance in the late 80s. The US sometimes accepts more radical right-wing ideas and figures because scapegoating and fear-mongering are useful for the ruling class to an extent. They don't really want the Minutmen or some militia group becoming a real force in society but they will flirt with it if they can use it to keep immigrants scared or keep people from expecting progressive change. On the other hand, the establishment only embraces the left when it is afraid of even more militant action. The Black panther party meant that politicians who once thought the school integration was the worst most radical thing ever, were happy to introduce non-discrimination legislation to try and "disarm" radical black youth.

So in the 30s, the establishment embraces Keynesian policies not because these things could help poor people and workers but because they thought it would cool down class conflicts while building up the capitalist economy in the long run. Conversely, if they are really threatened, the ruling class will even back fascism as it did in Central Europe to destroy any political opposition (but they would prefer not to go this route because it's not that great for capitalism either).

[hefty_lefty]

Raheem, you might be interested to learn a few things about the World Bank organization.
With so many countries indebted to it, it holds real sway over the path those countries can take.
I won't regurgetate the info here, but if you're interested, do some research.

[RadioRaheem84]

Yeah the World Bank holds considerable sway over how most nations govern. Just by reading the op-eds in the Wall Street Journal and Economist, I've come to see just how pointless most developmentalist candidates can because companies can just squeeze them into submission by divesting in an area leaving an already hurt economy decimated.

[Psy]

Raheem, you might be interested to learn a few things about the World Bank organization.
With so many countries indebted to it, it holds real sway over the path those countries can take.
I won't regurgetate the info here, but if you're interested, do some research.

But nations don't have to honor their debt, NATO is overstretched thus there is nothing the world bank can do if a nation says "you and what army is going and force me to pay my debts", the Russia-Georgian war showed NATO is impenitent as NATO couldn't even keep its own members in line as the capitalists of Europe rushed to Russia to arrange a deal with Russia behind NATO's back.

Meaning if international trade breaks down there really wouldn't be a downside for bourgeoisie nations to simply ignore their loans.

[Bill Hadnot]

But just what is and who is the "system"? We talk a lot about the system, but exactly what is it and who runs it?

This system is capitalism at the stage of imperialism. It is ran by those who own enough means to produce needed and desired goods to the extent that that they don't have to sell their ability to labor to a capitalist in order to survive. They then use this accumulating wealth they steal from the workers, by only giving them a percentage of what their labor produces, to purchase people's beliefs via public opinion-molding machine (TV, newspapers, textbooks, whatever it is that people look to in society when trying to judge what is normal). This is the dictatorship of the capitalist ruling class.

You mentioned before that liberals have brought victories against the free market, but this is not true. You have to understand that the capitalist ruling class dictators cannot give wages below what it takes for their slaves to survive and reproduce new generations of people in their social situation. Under chattel slavery, the slave owners who didn't pay their slaves well enough lost profits over time...it's the same thing happening here. This is the nature of capitalism. If they thought it'd be benefical to them to start to mold opinion towards the people of the empire having to work 12 hours a day in order to secure our survival then they'd do it.

Without state power all is illusion, and you're basically just trying to talk the dictators out of their elevated status. You might get them to repackage some things for you, but humanity stands no chance of being liberated so as long as you're going to rely on the rich fucks to save us.

[RadioRaheem84]

You know what's funny? My parents are immigrants from Chile. They fled Pinochet's Chile even though they, like many Chileans, are under the illusion that Pinochet presided over an economic miracle that save the nation from being a Cuba (funny that they didn't stay).

But they told me at an early age to avoid leftist movements. They told me to not get involved with Socialist causes in the States. It's weird how they left an oppressive nation at the time to come to the land of the free, only to tell their son not be involved with parties that question the system!

I don't know if its because they took that immigrant mentality with them and dont understand the US. OR maybe they do and understand that US acts hypocritically with parties it may consider subversive?

[Invincible Summer]

I have shown her clips of lectures from Michael Parenti, taken her to see Michael Moore's new movie, etc. All of the basic simple stuff that is in plain-speak so she can understand. And even though she doesn't understand, she still thinks that I keep showing her propaganda.

That is how I think most of the American people are. Especially those in her class; white, middle class, Republican.

You can show them straight facts all you want. They look at that and even though they cannot argue against it, they just think that instinctively its propaganda. It's a culture thing, not an unwillingness to see truth.

Notice how when it's in reference to socialism and communism, it's "propaganda," but when it's anything supporting the ruling class, it's "news" or "reports" etc?

Have you told her that people like Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh spread ruling class propaganda?

[Black Star]

How ingrained is capitalist propaganda in the American psyche? I'll answer this with a question. Would it suffice to say that capitalist propaganda is the American psyche?

As previously mentioned, the overwhelming majority of America is in a constant trance, almost an intoxication with the 'American Dream'. My father is a perfect model of this case, and the tragic part is he has gained nothing from the 'American Dream' but abuse and misfortune. An American veteran who returned home to work as truck driver, only to be diagnosed with Parkinson's Disease and forced to retire - but little did he know Social Security wasn't enough for him to effectively live off of. Now works odd jobs like being bartender, all while to support a child. In addition to this, he has tried three times to create a small business and each time has failed. A dream? More like a nightmare. More like the American Reality. Yet whenever I suggest to him the concepts of Communism and freedom, he rejects and proclaims, "I'm going to live the American Dream."

On a less personal note, there are people in this recession taking three, four part time jobs - quitting on their budding education or other pursuits. It's an established quotidian phenomenon. People cannot see the injustice in it. Some complain, but few protest - not as many as logically should. It's part of the American Dream. It's the American pysche.

[Drace]

Its as clear as rain

[x359594]

After casually criticizing capitalism to a friend she sent me this answer: "To me capitalism was always about owning your own business and your own home or working for a good business or public system and being paid well (and paying well) for hard and good work. I always felt regulation was necessary to keep the crooks at bay and ensure workers and customers weren't exploited. Beyond that, it's all toxic. I know that what I've believed isn't the reality of it, but it's what my working-class family taught me."

[RadioRaheem84]

Have you told her that people like Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh spread ruling class propaganda?

She knows that they have an agenda too. I mean its quite obvious to anyone. But whenever she listens to them, she thinks that what they're spewing is "common sense".

Apparently, the alternate reality that conservatives have created, by OVER BLOWING the American dream to unimaginable heights, has for some odd,odd reason become common sense to the average person.

I know of a guy who uses the financial aid system to go to school and support himself, doesn't have a job, no health insurance, one crisis away from being homeless.....and listens to right wing radio, loves reading Hayek, and votes Republican.

Another guy I know wants so bad to go to school but refuses to apply for financial aid because he is an avowed Randian Libertarian. He works at the local coffee shop and says that he's saved up enough money to take a class at the local community college!