American Health Care Sucks!

[Budog]

:thumbdown: I have been debating with a long time friend about American health care. He is a hardcore Republican Capitalist. He is totally against Socialized Medicine. He talks about how it would raise out taxes, we couldn't choose our own doctors and all the other lame right-wing garbage propaganda he can spew from his pie hole.

I countered with how I pay almost $400 a month for health insurance for my family and I that sucks! It might as well be a tax, that is $4,800 a year out of my income... I can't choose my own doctor really, the have to be "in network". Every time our insurance changes, I end up having to find a new doctor.

We have a $2000 a year health account that basically pays 100%. This doesn't even go far enough to cover the families meds for the year. After the $2000 are gone, then we have a $4000 deductible out of pocket. After we have met that they only pay 80/20.

I cannot afford to pay $4000 out of pocket. So unless it is an emergency we go without medical care the rest of the year. I have a brain tumor, so far it looks to be benign, but I cannot even go for my follow up MRI to have it checked like I should have months ago!

The Republican Capitalist pigs that are doing their best to block heath care reform really piss me off! But, why should I expect anything different, the AMA and the insurance companies have the politician on both sides of the isle, especially the Republicans in their deep pockets. And what do the politicians care, they get good quality and free health care for life. The bastards should have to pay for it like the rest of us or institute Socialized Medicine. JMHO...

Budog.

[chegitz guevara]

At least you have health care.

[Budog]

At least you have health care.

:rolleyes: I think you missed my entire point all together Comrade...

Budog.

[chegitz guevara]

Oh no I didn't.

I agree, American health care sux, like a lamprey, btw. But . . . I don't have any health care. :( I'm asthmatic, and I've had to go without buying my medicine since January, 2008. It's almost $200 a month, and that doesn't include my wife's medications. So I forgo and buy Primatine instead, which feels like taking a belt sander to your lungs.

[Budog]

If we had Socialized Medicine, we wouldn't be faced with these dilemmas and tough choices... But try telling that to the right-wing American sheeple and the crooked politicians.

Budog.

[Lyev]

Greetings from across the pond; I'm English so obviously I see health care a lot more differently to you guys. I was just wondering, and wanted to get an American perspective on this, what does Obama hope to do, specifically, with his health care reforms that I hear so much about?

[Kukulofori]

I went to the doctor a few weeks ago to get a prescription for penicillin for an excriciatingly painful tooth infection.

A few days later, I got a bill for $71. If medicare doesn't cover it, I'm not paying. I encourage you all to do the same.

[Budog]

Well, it isn't Socialized medicine but it is a good start. One of the reforms is a "Public Option" where regular consumers can join health care co-ops to reduced insurance costs etc. Every year the insurance premium I have to pay through my employer goes up, but the insurance covers less. If I was unemployed and on government welfare health care I could get better treatment. I do not mind paying taxes, it just would be nice to get more for my dollar and see less pork and waste.

Budog.

[Lyev]

So it's somewhat of a compromise? If that goes ahead (or has it already gone ahead?) will there still be those that slip through the net?

[Budog]

So it's somewhat of a compromise? If that goes ahead (or has it already gone ahead?) will there still be those that slip through the net?

:huh: Yes there will be, the rich capitalists do not care about the wage slaves who are poor or "middle class". They only care about the bottom line of their profit margin. We are expendable, I could quit today and there would be someone else to take my place and probably for less money...

Budog.

[Lyev]

Is it fair to say Obama is a bit of a wanker? He's got rid of Guantanamo Bay, but he's pretty weak on LGBT rights, I'm fairly sure he's put more troops in the east and his 'health care reforms' are fairly crap.

[fabiansocialist]

I was just wondering, and wanted to get an American perspective on this, what does Obama hope to do, specifically, with his health care reforms that I hear so much about?

The wanker wants to do nothing (ideally). Since he can't quite get away with this, his "proposals" -- which are really coming from that whore, Max Baucus) and are shrouded in obfuscation -- are designed to give the culprits a new swathe of customers by making it mandatory to purchase health insurance.

You have to remember the wanker has no ideas. Just bullshit hyperbole. As John Pilger says, this bullshit acts like a dog whistle -- inaudible to everyone with a few brain cells but which can be heard by the besotted and boneheaded (whom it mesmerises).

The one real solution is single-payer health care but that's not on the table and never was.

[Budog]

The single payer theory is great, but like you said it will never happen. And the idea to force everyone to but health insurance is the stupidest thing I have ever heard uttered from a politicians lips! Yeah, if you don't buy health insurance they are going to fine you! What about the poor bastards that cannot afford health insurance in the first place? Hey I know, throw everyone of them in prison and then the poor and disenfranchised will get free health care. Holy shit I better not say that, the morons might take it seriously...

Budog.

[Orange Juche]

The single payer theory is great, but like you said it will never happen.

Then what hope does socialism have?

[Jimmie Higgins]

The "public Option" is not a step forward in my opinion. Anything that leaves the health insurgence companies in tact is a defeat for us ideologically and is doomed to fail. Essentially the public option concedes that "the market can do things better" and if and when it fails to actually help workers, more people will turn to even more right-wing ideas since "public" plans are so horrible. It's like with the public schools - they are so underfunded and rich people take their kids to private schools so there are no resources and so many poor people are won to the idea that privatization for the school system might be better - hell what could it hurt at this point, from their perspective.

We need to argue that the market does not have people's health interests at heart and the Democrats are more interested in plans designed to alternately help Wal-Mart (the public option is supported by many big employers who see this as a way to take pressure off of them from union demands and dump any health care they currently provide) or the health insurance companies themselves (Democrat Baccus' plan for mandatory insurance). I think radicals should argue that true universal healthcare is the only reform that will actually benefit most workers including health-workers and that it is actually more cost-effective (price per patient is much lower in the UK and France and other countries) but the only way we are going to win it is through demanding it, not compromise or begging the Democrats (who have been repeatedly election on a platform for universal healthcare for something like 40 years).

[fabiansocialist]

Then what hope does socialism have?

Socialism has a hope; it's the United States that has none. Or at least not in its present imperial and fascist form.

It's interesting to see the way vested interests control the health care debate in the United States -- and there's are the only voices that get heard on a plutocrat-controlled media. On top of this there is a platoon of hired whores (Limbaugh, Hannity, Beck, Jones, ad nauseam) to obfuscate and confuse the issues (Hey pal, you a commie? You want socialised healthcare? Death panels? Months of waiting like England? No choice of doctor?). Again, they are shouting at you on mass media and you can't reply to the disinformation, lies, and propaganda. The public at large has misgivings about the system but it is fractured, apathetic, ignorant, confused, and easily lead astray by appeals to emotion.

[fabiansocialist]

We need to argue that the market does not have people's health interests at heart ...

I agree with your post but it is difficult to argue in the USA (though easy in Europe) because of deep-seated propaganda that the market is "efficient" and "competitive," and that anything government-run has to be a disaster (notwithstanding counterexamples like Medicare and Medicaid). Then there are deep-rooted fears (though often not expressed) that this will lead to more taxation and will be either misused by the government for other ends or at at the very least be used for medical care for "others" (urban minorities, illegals, etc.). All this the corporate-owned media plays on and builds adroitly. From the Left -- to the modest extent it exists in the USA -- there is nothing to match this capitalist cacophony. Little voice and just about no pressure.

[Jimmie Higgins]

I agree with your post but it is difficult to argue in the USA (though easy in Europe) because of deep-seated propaganda that the market is "efficient" and "competitive," and that anything government-run has to be a disaster (notwithstanding counterexamples like Medicare and Medicaid). Then there are deep-rooted fears (though often not expressed) that this will lead to more taxation and will be either misused by the government for other ends or at at the very least be used for medical care for "others" (urban minorities, illegals, etc.). All this the corporate-owned media plays on and builds adroitly. From the Left -- to the modest extent it exists in the USA -- there is nothing to match this capitalist cacophony. Little voice and just about no pressure.

Really? I find it pretty easy to argue - maybe it's because I'm in an urban area where most people have seen the 5th layer of hell that is the local emergency room here in East Oakland (where on most nights you can find people writhing on the floor in pain in the waiting room and homeless people with chronic problems and freakish ailments due to neglect).

Really the main thing that props up faith in the free-market for 95% of the working class is the idea that either there is no better alternative to the market, or there is no support for alternative to the market. In California the Nurses union has been fighting for socialized health care for years... if they took hundreds of nurses and other union members to protest town halls like the right did, then we could probably change the terms of the debate and you would see people supporting this option.

The main barrier to something like this is the union's attachment to the Democratic party - this means that unions didn't fight for universal healthcare and then only reluctantly mobilized for the "public option" (because making demands for something better might make the Democratic party look bad according to the union officialdom). Also polls a few years ago showed a majority of Americans supported universal healthcare, the desire was so much the the Democrats decided that they would not even mention universal healthcare as an option when they started talking about reforming healthcare.

[Budog]

Well Graverobber, if the County Hospitals were truly Socialized they would be well funded enough to be able to give better and more efficient care. I worked on an ambulance and E.R.'s in Los Angeles for many years, so I know the State and conditions of the County Hospitals believe me! As far as the public schools go, the rich can send their children to private schools, they still pay the same property taxes that fund public schools whether their children attend them or not. In fact any property or homeowner pay property taxes that fund schools whether they even have children or not. The system is broken, educational, health care etc. A complete overhaul and new system is what is needed.

Budog.

[Bill Hadnot]

Doctors are rich. Most rich hate poor people and have their rationalizations about why we caused ourselves to be poor and not able to pay them as much as their rich buddies. My problem now is not that I don't have healthcare, I do supposedly, but it's almost completely useless when you go to the doctors and they treat you like crap, like you're stupid and unwelcome to be there, and then they just want to prescribe you drugs to simply mask your ailments and make you worse off, and deny needed treatment if the insurance is not willing to pay them an acceptable price. It is impossible for me to trust doctors under capitalism. Human need must replace making profit as the motivating factor, and I'll never be able to trust a rich person period.

[RED ARMY FACTION]

Well americans suck, so it is fitting their healthcare should, you could all have free healthcare if your fucked up nation did not waste its money in vietnam, iraq, afghanistan etc.
The kids being slaughtered by isreal with rockets suplied by you dont have great healthcare either.
God i hate America

[revolution inaction]

Well americans suck, so it is fitting their healthcare should, you could all have free healthcare if your fucked up nation did not waste its money in vietnam, iraq, afghanistan etc.
The kids being slaughtered by isreal with rockets suplied by you dont have great healthcare either.
God i hate America

you hate normal americans because of some stuff there government, which they have no control over, did? your a fucking idiot.

[RED ARMY FACTION]

yes thats exactly what i am saying, because the "normal" americans vote the evil bastards like bush into power.
There is no such thing as an innocent Yank.
Even the democrats are moronic capitalist assholes, and they are considered radical left in america.
if americans showed the teeniest tinyest amount of class conciousness the rest of the left might sympathise.
But even capitalist impearialist nations think america is evil and its inhabitants are just as bad as their troops in the middle east.
I am not saying i do not realise the marxists in the US are good people, but the rest are all fox news, SUV driving mcdonalds munching flag waving morons with 69% of yanks saying they beleive the US should use force against Iran.
How can you defend these imbeciles

[Budog]

:glare: Hmmm, can you say I smell a fucking troll? When your nuts drop pup, then you can get off the porch and play with the big dogs. I agree massive and radical change needs to happen in America, but I am fed up with your personal and blanket attacks. You don't even have the balls to publish your location or anything else, classic sign of a troll. So if you don't have anything constructive or intelligent to say, do us a favor and shut the fuck up!

Budog.

[RED ARMY FACTION]

no i am not a troll i just happen to know that america is beyond salvation

[RED ARMY FACTION]

o wow your an american.
now i see why your so defensive of your proud dominant nation

[GPDP]

idiotic ramble

http://images.starcraftmazter.net/4chan/for_forums/cool_story_bro.jpg

[RED ARMY FACTION]

lol thanks comrade

[GPDP]

lol thanks comrade

Have you ever been to the U.S.? Or do you just like to yell at us from the safety of your computer screen?

I realize a lot of the American working class is reactionary, but that's hardly their fault entirely. Between the utter destruction of the left, particularly the revolutionary left, and the massive campaign of propaganda, it's hardly surprising. But nevertheless, never make the mistake of equating the actions of the U.S. government with that of the people it claims to represent, even if we are duped into supporting them at times.

More than that, your statements are deeply prejudiced, and are wholly unfair. Seriously, we're not all stereotypical flag-wavers or SUV-drivers or what not. I, and almost every other poster on this site would never make broad, prejudiced claims about, say, the French being white flag-wavers, so I suggest you keep that shit out of this forum where it doesn't belong.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Well Graverobber, if the County Hospitals were truly Socialized they would be well funded enough to be able to give better and more efficient care.Yes, that is why I support it. Additionally since it would take a movement to accomplish this I think the class struggle would be advanced by such a win and encourage the working class to make more demands. As I said above I think many workers (in the US) tacitly go along with pro-market ideas because they don't think they can get anything better.


As far as the public schools go, the rich can send their children to private schools, they still pay the same property taxes that fund public schools whether their children attend them or not. In fact any property or homeowner pay property taxes that fund schools whether they even have children or not. I don't see your point. Well as a Californian you are probably aware of the limits on property taxes in our State Government. Also suburbanization and white flight have essentially removed a lot of tax revenue to poor and urban areas. Beyond that, for the last generation, corporate taxes have been cut and more of the tax burden is put onto the backs of workers - California is plenty rich and if they can spend the last 30 years building the worlds second largest prison system, then there could have been enough funds to send everyone to UCs or build brand new schools for every town in the state. The crappy state of things now is a result of the ruling class changing from the more concilatory "great society" and "new deal" to the more aggressive approach. If people could fight and win some reforms this would put the ruling class back on the defensive again and help move our side of the class struggle ahead towards more offensive demands.


The system is broken, educational, health care etc. A complete overhaul and new system is what is needed.Agreed. The question is how do you get there and I think when workers make demands and win real reforms, they learn how to fight and gain confidence to take on the system even more.

[RED ARMY FACTION]

look sorry, i was out of line
sincere apologies.

[Jazzratt]

look sorry, i was out of line
sincere apologies.

Well backpeddaled. Next time you feel like going on a big rant about how america is full of capitalist fuckwits why not look in your own backyard. There is nothing that makes us in britain superior to those in america.

[RED ARMY FACTION]

so you have never gone on a rant when your pissed off

[Jazzratt]

so you have never gone on a rant when your pissed off

I tend to flavour my rants with logic. I can hold off on typing all sorts of baseless shit when I'm angry.

[RED ARMY FACTION]

fuck me comrade i said i was sorry.
And i meant it or i wouldnt of said it.

[fabiansocialist]

The question is how do you get there and I think when workers make demands and win real reforms, they learn how to fight and gain confidence to take on the system even more.

I recoil from the word "reform." It's what the establishment uses to change anything in any real fashion and make but cosmetic alterations. Educational "reform"; healthcare "reform"; detainee "reform." No wonder nothing ever changes. But to return to the discussion of health care, it will not change without a revolution. Until that time the real desires of the masses of people (including you and I) will be thwarted, diverted, and led down blind alleys and dead ends.

[Budog]

look sorry, i was out of line
sincere apologies.

;) I can gracefully accept that comrade. Each nation of the world has it's good and bad points and people. As an American who disagrees with most of the U.S. governments current policies and actions it is offensive to be lumped in with the mass majority of sheeple. There are those of us who are standing up and fighting for what they believe in. This is not an easy task and we are greatly out numbered by people who have been brainwashed for multiple generations and are so closed minded that aren't willing to consider any other way or system. But, there is a sizable and growing movement that are pro-socialist, pro-communist, pro-labor, feminism, anti-fascist etc. We have a long hard battle ahead of us but more and more people are waking up out of their media induced coma and starting to take action. So, just think first and don't just lump us into one group based on your own rage and bias. Believe me, many of us are fed up and filled with rage...

Budog.

[Guerrilla22]

Yeah it isn't all that great for the people that actually do have it. 46 million or so do not.

[Uncle Ho]

Greetings from across the pond; I'm English so obviously I see health care a lot more differently to you guys. I was just wondering, and wanted to get an American perspective on this, what does Obama hope to do, specifically, with his health care reforms that I hear so much about?

He hopes to force us to all buy health insurance from private companies with zero oversight or face hefty penalties.

In other words, it's the only way our system can get worse.

There is no chance whatsoever of a public option now, and Obama doesn't seem to mind one bit.

I consider myself very fortunate to have a good health plan, thanks to the union, but I am also getting hurt on a very regular basis. Just 2 weeks ago, I suffered second degree burns from a transformer popping while I was on the line, had the union not mandated nomex safety gear, I would have died horribly. I cannot imagine how the non-union guys do my job, as they get a far worse health plan.

[Budog]

The Teamsters Union has a good health insurance program as far as insurance goes anyway... But for some reason we are still stuck with the garbage insurance the corporation I work for offers. I think one of the things we should fight for in our next contract negotiations is for the Union Members to be able to join the Teamsters health insurance program. One of the problems we have here though is I live in a "Right To Work" State, which basically means you don't have to join the Union, and also gives employers allot more leeway to totally screw their workers. So the people in my department who are not union members wouldn't be able to use the insurance. This might be a good recruiting tool to get the scabs to join the union. The union insurance is much less expensive and better coverage... Still not socialized medicine, but it would be a vast improvement.

Budog.

[Uncle Ho]

Believe me, I know all about "Right to Work" states.

We're trying to organize oil rig workers and miners in one now and it's very difficult between the hostile laws and the brainwashing these men have received.

[Jimmie Higgins]

I recoil from the word "reform." It's what the establishment uses to change anything in any real fashion and make but cosmetic alterations. Educational "reform"; healthcare "reform"; detainee "reform." No wonder nothing ever changes. But to return to the discussion of health care, it will not change without a revolution. Until that time the real desires of the masses of people (including you and I) will be thwarted, diverted, and led down blind alleys and dead ends.

Well certainty any gains made by the working class under capitalism will be under constant attack until worker's power is finally established but does that mean we should forget about the unions or defending public schools or welfare or the 8 hour day?

Reform certainty does mean something different when used by the modern establishment compare to a generation ago when reforms still meant "reforms on the capitalist" system as in "reformist". But winning socialized healthcare would be a step forward for workers who could then feel empowered to make even more demands.

In the past generation, the working class has had the anger, what's been missing is the organization and the plain expectations that demands can be made and won away from the system. This has caused a lot of passivity and pessimism which means beyond voting for a Democrat, most people don't feel like they can do much to change things. Any movement that could win some - even modest at this point - reforms without compromise (like the public option) will help radicals make the case for building movements to actually make the change that people want to see; this will people people toe-to-toe against the interests of our rulers and lead to more radicalization as people realize that you can't lobby or vote for these politicians who are actually opposed to our interests.