Zinn's A People's History of the United States - What do you

[Marxist in Nebraska]

I am currently reading A People's History of the United States by Howard Zinn. This book is recognized as probably the best survey of US history as not told by the elitist point of view.

Has anybody out here in Che-land read this? What did you think of it?

I have only read the first seven chapters so far, but I read a few parts of the book in high school. All I can really remember at all is the last chapter, which is called "The Coming Revolt of the Guards." In that chapter, Zinn (who is considered by some to be the most optimistic of leftist voices) gives his prediction for the future. He believes that teachers and other low-level servants of the ruling class will become aware of their situation, and join the revolution.

What do you think?

[Sabocat]

Great book. I think you'll find a lot of people here at this board have read it. For me it was life changing. I defy anyone who has read it to think about or see the U$ in the same light again.

The most surprising thing to me, was the number of times that the peasant/working class revolted against the system, and how the government enacted new laws and policies to control and ensure that it wouldn't happen again.

I agree with Zinn in that there will be another uprising of the working class. It happened so many times previously, it almost has to again. As the economy worsens, and the gulf between ultra rich and ultra poor grows ever bigger, then I believe that the grumblings of another uprising will occur.

[FatFreeMilk]

I just renewed this book from the library yesterday. It was recomended to me by a substitute teacher (very cool guy). I wish that the school would use it as a text book instead of gloryfying the ways of this fucked up country.

[Marxist in Nebraska]

I actually used Zinn's book as one history textbook in my sophomore year of high school. I was pretty ignorant then, so I did not even bother to read most of the time when it was assigned. I had a really cool teacher in that class. I set up my schedule so that I had her for three more classes before I graduated, and I have gone back to talk with her on political issues since then.

The only chapter I remember at all is "The Coming Revolt of the Guards", but of course I said that in the first post.

I have finished chapters six and seven, dealing with oppression of women and Indians in early US history.

[Umoja]

We read the book as our supplement textbook in History. I haven't read all of it yet, because to me it's more of a burden to be forced to read something that's not about Kwame Nkrumah, okay maybe that's a lie.

[truthaddict11]

if you liked that pick up a cd of him lecturing very interesting when he talks about his involvement with WW2 and Civil Rights.

[Marxist in Nebraska]

Who is Kwame Nkrumah?

[Umoja]

First President of Ghana, Leader of Africas first Modern and Independent nation (not counting Egypt, or Ethiopia), also he was the founder of the All-Africans Peoples Revolutionary Party. Great guy.

[Umoja]

www.houseofnubian.com (http://www.houseofnubian.com) has a good collection of speeches. I know they have Chomsky, but I'm not positive about Zinn.

[Marxist in Nebraska]

Has anyone else read Zinn's book? Come on, comrades, more responses!

A new question: Do you have a favorite chapter or part? How about a least favorite chapter or part?

[Umoja]

I have only read through half, but "Drawing the Color-line" was by far my favorite chapter.

[SonofRage]

Great book. I was first exposed to it back in high school. A history teacher of my girlfriend's was teaching out of it and it really wowed the hell out of me. I had heard about some of the dark things in our history but it was the first time it was in front of me in black and white. Definitely a must-own book for anyone who loves truth.

[Marxist in Nebraska]

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2003, 09:28 AM
Definitely a must-own book for anyone who loves truth.
Hear hear.

Comrade Umoja,
I, too, enjoyed that chapter. Have you ever read Bennet's Before the Mayflower? That is a great piece of African-American history.

[Umoja]

My mother has repeatedly suggested "Before the Mayflower" but I have such a large booklist, it'll be another year before I have freechoice in reading.

[elijahcraig]

My favorite chapter was the first. What happened to the Arawak Indians is probably the most sickening thing I have ever heard. They were living like communists.

[Regicidal Insomniac]

I'm reading it right now, currently i'm a few hundred pages into it...
My favourite part so far has been the first chapter, it was truly sickening the learn the details of how Europeans treated the indigenous people of America...

To me the worst part of those atrocities is that today we still have a holiday to celibrate that genocidal, racsist, imperialistic prick Columbus... to quote a comrade, "If germany celebrated every 4-20 with big parades of stormtroopers the rest of the world would fucking shit a brick, but someone who killed just as many people is celebrated here."

Anywho, I'm really enjoying the book and I strongly recomend it to anyone interested in the truth.

[SonofRage]

That is why every Columbus Day we should all make an effort to speak out against it. If there are Native Americans in your area, there will likely be a protest somewhere. Go and participate.

[Sabocat]

My favorite chapter(s) were the chapters about the labor movement and strikes. It was amazing the people that stood up to the big companies, and the sacrifices they made. A lot of the textile industry struggles happened very near to where I live, so it made it that much more interesting to me.

[Marxist in Nebraska]

Comrade Umoja,
I know what you mean. I have dozens of books lined up, but Before the Mayflower is definitely worth reading. Keep it in mind.

Comrades elijahcraig and Regicidal Insomniac,
I agree completely with your outrage about Columbus. I thought Zinn's chapter on him, however, was somewhat disappointing. I think James Loewen does a better job in Lies My Teacher Told Me in showing how much of a fucking creep he was.

Also, Comrade Regicidal Insomniac,


To me the worst part of those atrocities is that today we still have a holiday to celibrate that genocidal, racsist, imperialistic prick Columbus... to quote a comrade, "If germany celebrated every 4-20 with big parades of stormtroopers the rest of the world would fucking shit a brick, but someone who killed just as many people is celebrated here."

Hear, hear! At my former high school, a group of Native students actually celebrate "Native American Survival Day" or something like that on Genocidal-Fuckhead Day.

[Marxist in Nebraska]

I just read Zinn's chapter on the robber barons. He had an interesting explanation for why the billionaires spend so much money (via philanthropy) on education. He suggests that the colleges paid for by Vanderbilt, Duke, et al, are factories to train the middle class minions for the bosses. Liberal arts education does not give people the skills to overcome the bosses, but does set them up to have some limited success within the system. The products of these schools become a buffer between the ruling class and the proletariat. Whatcha think?

[ernestolynch]

I read the book a few years ago and found it stunning, so I went out and bought the teachers' edition, to use in class. I am a history teacher after all! ;)

[Marxist in Nebraska]

Comrade ernestolynch,
I am glad to hear there is another history teacher out there using the book. I am not yet a teacher, but that is what I plan on doing professionally.

I recently read in Zinn about the Presidents Roosevelt (Teddy and FDR). Zinn on TR: an unabashed imperialist and far-sighted capitalist--far-sighted in that he masterfully utilized modest reform to add years to the life of capitalism in the United States. He was able to dampen the increasing class tensions, which did anger many of the oligarchs in the U.S. Short-term profits seem more important than even a capitalist's own survival at the top of the class structure. It seems absurd to me. I wonder if so many years at the top of the social pyramid will make one feel invincible or even godlike. I do not know what other explanation there can be for why capitalists act so irrationally in disregard of their own safety. I do not think they are stupid, as they are so good at manipulating the class structure.

Franklin Roosevelt does not get painted with quite as negative a picture as his uncle. FDR was a status quo president who defended corporate interests against perhaps the greatest threat they had ever faced. Discontent and rebellion erupted in a tremendous way after the stock market crash of 1929 plunged the U.S. into the Great Depression. Roosevelt was probably the strongest reformer in U.S. history, but that was necessary to protect a very fragile system on the verge of total collapse. FDR appears in Zinn's portrayal as a conscious capitalist fighting to save the elite, but he does not seem to have the same arrogance or will to repress rebellions that his uncle and other presidents of the Robber Baron era had. His interest, seemingly, was to enlarge the middle class--creating enough prosperity to stabilize the system while managing to keep the elite in power. FDR exemplifies the very best of the Democratic Party, and considering this evaluation, is exactly why we as radicals cannot settle for the lesser of evils indefinitely.

[dopediana]

i've only referred to it a few times to set some teachers straight on issues and it's worked like a charm. I think he did a great job telling the truth about Columbus' treatment of natives in the "New World." i'll have to actually read it thoroughly when i get some time.

[Marxist in Nebraska]

the amaryllis,
Have you read Lies My Teacher Told Me by James Loewen? I think he handles Columbus better than Zinn. Loewen completely smashes the heroic Columbus myth.

EDIT: Also, I am happy that the thread is working again. I was really mad when new posts quit showing up a couple of weeks ago.

[YKTMX]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2003, 11:42 PM
I am a history teacher after all! ;)
Jesus, don't say things like that, I'll lose the will to live.

[Severian]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2003, 12:17 PM
My favorite chapter(s) were the chapters about the labor movement and strikes. It was amazing the people that stood up to the big companies, and the sacrifices they made. A lot of the textile industry struggles happened very near to where I live, so it made it that much more interesting to me.
Yeah, I agree, that's some of the best stuff in the book.

The biggest thing that's covered up in official, capital-friendly history isn't the history of oppression. They cover that up some. But they cover up the history of resistance even more. And that's what's most important to uncover.

[Marxist in Nebraska]

Four duplicate posts in a row for Severian!

Seriously, I just read the chapter on World War II, Korea, and the Red Scare of the 1950s.

According to Zinn:

The U.S. and the Roosevelt administration went beyond the obligation of neutrality to provide zero support for the anti-fascists in Spain.

The Communist Party initially opposed U.S. entrance into WWII. When Hitler invaded the USSR, they changed their tune. The "imperialist war" became the "people's war" against fascism.

The U.S. used the atomic bombs against Japan either to experiment with the weapons in live combat or to force Japanese surrender before the USSR entered the war. The U.S. would seek the latter because it would guarantee that the Americans, and the Americans alone, would occupy post-war Japan.

Liberals and conservatives in American politics sought to build a bipartisan consensus against communism in the post-war years.

Legislation was signed by the Congress in the early 1950s to create the equivalent of concentration camps in the U.S. to hold communists in. The order would be carried out if the president (I believe) called for it. The call was never made, and the Congress repealed the legislation in 1968.

Interesting chapter, eh? Opinions?

[Lefty]

I got it for my birthday, and I'll get around to reading it sometime. I've heard it's damn good. Lies My Teacher Told Me was most excellent, and my 8th grade history teacher made us read out of it. That made me happy. By the way, Ernesto Lynch: What grade do you teach?

[Marxist in Nebraska]

Lefty,
I also love James Loewen's work. Have you read Lies Across America, his follow up to Lies My Teacher Told Me?

[Marxist in Nebraska]

I finished Zinn's People's History, and now it seems that I will be starting his book Declarations of Independence in the next week. I wound up being lent a copy unexpectedly...

I do not have much to say about the last part of his History... just a few notes:

A bumper sticker issued at the time of the 1996 Presidential election between Bill Clinton and Bob Dole:
"If God had intended us to vote, He would have given us candidates!" LOL!

Zinn's final chapter, "The Coming Revolt of the Guards", is great. If you do not have the time to read the whole book (it is worth making time for), read this chapter. In it, he suggests that we are coming into a period of time where revolution is truly possible. This is because the Middle Classes are beginning to lose faith in the system, and they are the "guards", or the buffer between the ruling class and the people.

[(*]

I just bought the book (in paperback), I'll start reading it tonight. :)

[Marxist in Nebraska]

(*,

How is the book?

[Marxist in Nebraska]

(*,

Have you read any of the book yet? If so, what do you think?

I have been reflecting in recent weeks on some questions, and I can tie some of them into Zinn's "The Coming Revolt of the Guards" at the end of the book.

Zinn's theory for why there has not been a leftist revolution in the United States is because the ruling class has had so much wealth, being the most powerful empire since Rome, that they can afford to share a little bit of wealth with the white collar crowd (or to co-opt a populist leader). I think Zinn argues this theory convincingly.

Neo-liberalism seems to be dissolving this "buffer class" between the capitalist oligarchs and the workers. Is this destabilizing the firm hold the ruling class has held here for so long? Can the growing disparity between the haves and the have nots lead to a "Revolt of the Guards"?

I think by destroying the buffer class (middle class), the ruling class may be undercutting the survival of the capitalist system here in the United States. If you agree with me, why do you think this is? Is it simple arrogance on the part of the capitalists? The state of organization for progressive causes in this country is miserable. There has not been a serious socialist/communist challenge to the U.S. government since at least the Great Depression... does the ruling class think the spectre of communism has dissipated? Or is there another factor?

[FatFreeMilk]

Omigod I have the coolest substitute teacher in the world! He recommended this book to me a long ass time ago and I checked it out from the library but didn't get near to finishing it before i had to return it. Well he found out that I didn't finish it... So today he was subing for my 3rd period class and put the brand spankin' new edition on my desk to keep!

Now I can discuss it more with you people! yay!

[Marxist in Nebraska]

FFM,

Are you talking about the edition updated post-9/11? I saw that at a Barnes and Noble recently. My copy, the one I read, was a late-90's edition that left off shortly after Clinton's re-election. I mean to read the new parts of the latest edition.

[FatFreeMilk]

Yep that's the one :D I already skipped to that part too :D Well just kinda skimmed through it... It also talks about the 2000 elections.

I love Mr. Maguire!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Marxist in Nebraska]

Does anyone have any comments on my October 28th post? C'mon!

[Exploited Class]

test

[FatFreeMilk]

( :D )

Okay, so in response to your post, (from the 28 ) you bring up something I never really thought about yet. Hey, I haven't gotten that far in the book yet. But I don't understand what you meant when you said :

" I think by destroying the buffer class (middle class), the ruling class may be undercutting the survival of the capitalist system here in the United States"

can you like clarify what you mean when you say "undercutting"?

[Marxist in Nebraska]

Capitalism has survived in the United States because there has been no workers' revolution. The question is why has there not been a revolution?

Zinn says there has not been a revolution because the ruling class has masterfully given an adequate amount of loot to the right number of workers. This created a relatively affluent middle class.

This middle class is perhaps comparable to the house slaves of the plantation-era Southern U.S. They are treated somewhat better than the field workers/working poor and unemployed, and thus many of them side with the slavemaster/ruling class. They have been given enough that they are afraid of losing it.

The middle class, because it serves the status quo to protect its meager advantages, serves to "stabilize" (read: enforces, protects) the capitalist system.

Fast-forward to the present day--the era of NAFTA. Stable, good paying jobs are being shipped out of the country. These are the jobs that workers protected the capitalist system to hold on to. The privileged workers--those who usually defect from the class struggle to protect their privilege, the buffer class--are losing their privileges. They are losing their cushy jobs. Their pensions are crumbling because of robbing CEOs.

Many of these workers are loyal to the system. They are loyal because they want to protect what they have, but they are still losing it all. Will not abusing your lackeys create the potential that they will become your enemies? They are hosing the ones who have kept the system secure.

This is what I mean by undercutting. Does this make any sense? Do you need more of an explanation? On what parts?

[FatFreeMilk]

Sneekycapitalistpigmotherfuckers. Okay, so I see what your saying but I got kinda confused on the last two paragraphs (the ones before where you asked if I was confused) sorry.
So when these workers see what the hell is going on, the revolution will come?

[Marxist in Nebraska]

So when these workers see what the hell is going on, the revolution will come?

Not necessarily, but the potential is there. We need to do our part in promoting the leftist cause, and hope that the "buffer class" sides with us.

Hmmm... I can see how my earlier post can be confusing--too many pronouns. I will go back and edit it.