Contradiction of capitalism can be scary in reality...

[RadioRaheem84]

Are we doomed to a series of bubbles in this new era of debt finance capitalism?

Can we ever go back to an economy, a real economy, based on production in the West? Is the inherent contradiction going to keep eating away at whatever we have left of a real economy? It's scary to think so but how can we stop capital flight? The rules these days seem to be so tilted to favor business that can any politician really introduce protectionist policies in this country?

[Invincible Summer]

I'm sorry, but I think you'll have to rephrase your question...

[robbo203]

Are we doomed to a series of bubbles in this new era of debt finance capitalism?

Can we ever go back to an economy, a real economy, based on production in the West? Is the inherent contradiction going to keep eating away at whatever we have left of a real economy? It's scary to think so but how can we stop capital flight? The rules these days seem to be so tilted to favor business that can any politician really introduce protectionist policies in this country?

Protectionism is no answer. Indeed to advocate it is to be coopted into supporting capitalism. Who is the "we" in the question "how can we stop capital flight?". The working class is defined by the fact that it owns little or no capital in the first place. Capitalism maintains itself through a strategy of divide and rule. Workers in one country become concerned about issues of capital flight to other parts of the world and begin to see the workers in those other parts as their "competitors", not fellow members of the global working class. Bit by bit we are sucked into a mindset that perpetuates capitalism

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

I do not know why the word 'contradiction' appears in the title to this thread. As has been shown here many times, the use of this word in relation to capitalism (or in connection with any other natural or social process) would make change impossible:

http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1207509&postcount=360

http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1207517&postcount=361

http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1207518&postcount=362

http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1222404&postcount=14

http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1221395&postcount=465

Quotes:

http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1401000&postcount=76

Argument:

http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1401001&postcount=77

[Axle]

The fact that America is dismantling its productive industries and trying to maintain the economy on finance means that capitalism in this country is literally sprinting towards its final stages.

What we've got here is the start of exactly what Marx predicted. Dismantling the material producting sector of the economy means primarily getting rid of the high-wage jobs for the common person, and without those high-wage jobs, it gives other industries an excuse to drive down wages. Without those jobs (i.e. without a middle class), the gap between rich and poor is going to widen, and since nothing will actually be produced in America, no new wealth can be created...which means that, by design, every time a person gets richer, the poor get poorer, which leads to class antagonism sharpening.

[Psy]

The fact that America is dismantling its productive industries and trying to maintain the economy on finance means that capitalism in this country is literally sprinting towards its final stages.

What we've got here is the start of exactly what Marx predicted. Dismantling the material producting sector of the economy means primarily getting rid of the high-wage jobs for the common person, and without those high-wage jobs, it gives other industries an excuse to drive down wages. Without those jobs (i.e. without a middle class), the gap between rich and poor is going to widen, and since nothing will actually be produced in America, no new wealth can be created...which means that, by design, every time a person gets richer, the poor get poorer, which leads to class antagonism sharpening.
That leads to over-production as workers can't afford to consume as much, the catalyst of current crisis was the working class can no longer use credit to consume beyond their wages leaving manufactures with goods workers can no longer buy.

[Axle]

That leads to over-production as workers can't afford to consume as much, the catalyst of current crisis was the working class can no longer use credit to consume beyond their wages leaving manufactures with goods workers can no longer buy.

Absolutely. Although I don't think this is the be all, end all of recessions, but just the beginning.

I think everything will get better temporarily, but America will start seeing recessions at an ever-increasing, ever-worsening pace until we get a recession so deep that the entire economy implodes. And I do mean implode...I think we could (emphasis on could, I understand Capitalism, but I'm no economist) be headed toward something that makes the Great Depression look like a bump in the road.

[Psy]

Absolutely. Although I don't think this is the be all, end all of recessions, but just the beginning.

I think everything will get better temporarily, but America will start seeing recessions at an ever-increasing, ever-worsening pace until we get a recession so deep that the entire economy implodes. And I do mean implode...I think we could (emphasis on could, I understand Capitalism, but I'm no economist) be headed toward something that makes the Great Depression look like a bump in the road.
I don't see any engine to pull the world economy out of its slump, there will probably be a recovery but based on nothing but speculation meaning there will only be a recovery of fictitious capital while real capital stagnates. The capitalists can't turn to China like they did in the 1980's as China is now industrialized and its ruling class is currently pissing itself in fear of its huge proletariat that are rapidly becoming unemployed and militant.

The capitalists have pretty much run out of peasants to proletarianize and even if they were able to proletarianize the few peasants left in the world it wouldn't solve the crisis of overproduction and the falling rate of profit.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Absolutely. Although I don't think this is the be all, end all of recessions, but just the beginning.

I think everything will get better temporarily, but America will start seeing recessions at an ever-increasing, ever-worsening pace until we get a recession so deep that the entire economy implodes. And I do mean implode...I think we could (emphasis on could, I understand Capitalism, but I'm no economist) be headed toward something that makes the Great Depression look like a bump in the road.

It definitely seems like the US economy looks much more like the pre-world wars economy than the post-war economy. Since the 70s we've had recessions in the mid 70s, early 80s, late early 90s, early 2000s, and again now. For a while the ruling class was able to make up for falling rates of profit through cracking down on the "3rd world" and busting unions and gutting social programs here in the states. I doubt they they can really get away with it for much longer and another crackdown as things stand now could reignite populist revolts in Latin America and in set them off here too.

The scariest thing is that I think that the ruling classes all know this and so we are entering a period of more overt military competition between imperialist countries (already the US and Russia and I think we will see proxy scuffles between the US and China in Africa). Already the imperialist powers are being more overt in putting overt military pressure on their spheres of influence and this will be more common possibly leading to a kind of WWI type conflict where proxy battles become all out wars.

The US ruling class (or any major power) are not going to simply fold-up and go away; they will either weather the storm, form some other kind of social order (state-capitalism or even fascism if needed), or they will be defeated by the working class.

[Psy]

It definitely seems like the US economy looks much more like the pre-world wars economy than the post-war economy. Since the 70s we've had recessions in the mid 70s, early 80s, late early 90s, early 2000s, and again now. For a while the ruling class was able to make up for falling rates of profit through cracking down on the "3rd world" and busting unions and gutting social programs here in the states. I doubt they they can really get away with it for much longer and another crackdown as things stand now could reignite populist revolts in Latin America and in set them off here too.

It is not only the 3rd world. Europe is currently getting rocked by worker uprisings even in Britain where the capitalists thought they broken the will of the working class to resist. There is also signs of workers starting to stir in China and Japan.



The scariest thing is that I think that the ruling classes all know this and so we are entering a period of more overt military competition between imperialist countries (already the US and Russia and I think we will see proxy scuffles between the US and China in Africa). Already the imperialist powers are being more overt in putting overt military pressure on their spheres of influence and this will be more common possibly leading to a kind of WWI type conflict where proxy battles become all out wars.

Right but it is worse then that, Russia has restated its nuclear doctrine saying it will deploy tactical nuclear warheads if its conventional forces are overwhelmed, while this has been Russia doctrine for some time them restating it is basically a warning to NATO to keep out of Russia's spear of influence. Russia also back in 2007 showcased the world largest Thermobaric bomb that has the exploisve force of a large tactical nuclear warhead without the fallout.



The US ruling class (or any major power) are not going to simply fold-up and go away; they will either weather the storm, form some other kind of social order (state-capitalism or even fascism if needed), or they will be defeated by the working class.
Right but right now I don't think they know what to do, the capitalist market is not acting like their bourgeois theories state so currently they have no clue of how deep of the current crisis is.

[hefty_lefty]

And neither does the majority of the population. If the bottom drops out, there will be a lot of surprised and unprepared people.

The companies, government and media are all 'rounding off the edges' and creating a comforting air for us consumers, and for many it is 'life as usual' even in the face of this recession.

How will we know when the economy is about to go belly up for real?

[Psy]

And neither does the majority of the population. If the bottom drops out, there will be a lot of surprised and unprepared people.

If the bottom drops out? It already has production is still declining, all the talk of green shoots is over production sliding slower, the fluctuation in the stock market is due to government bailouts and speculation.



The companies, government and media are all 'rounding off the edges' and creating a comforting air for us consumers, and for many it is 'life as usual' even in the face of this recession.

For some it is 'life as usual' but for a growing majority their living standards are being assaulted by the capitalist class, be it by banks squeezing the working class for more money or employers squeezing workers for less wages and they are the 'lucky' ones as more and more people are being laid-off. Did you forget Tens of thousands lined up for housing assistance in Detroit (http://www.revleft.com/vb/tens-thousands-line-t119463/index.html?t=119463) that greatly outnumbered the entire Detriot police force, lucky for the police (unlucky for us) those tens of thousands never got the collective idea of rushing the cops and kicking off a workers revolution in downtown Detriot rather then waiting in line for a chance to get some token aid that only a tiny few of them would get anyway.



How will we know when the economy is about to go belly up for real?
It is already bellyup for real it is just all the classes are currently in denial.