Russian Liberation Army aka Vlasov Army, 1944

[The Idler]

Russian Liberation Army aka Vlasov Army, 1944-1945 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Liberation_Army) - These guys seem pretty crazy. I suppose one question might be, where did they stand during the Molotov Ribbentrop pact, and what if they emerged victorious, defeating Germany and the Soviet Union? I guess we would have seen the return of a monarchical system in the Soviet Union.

[Andy Bowden]

Hard to say if they would actually have been able to create a system of government in Russia if the Nazis had won.

The Soviet Union may simply have been slated for slow extermination as a collection of subhuman races, like the Nazi plan for Poland; no universities, schools, hospitals etc but an existence of slave labour for Germany's benefit.

Fortunately cos of the Red Army millions of Russians and other Soviet citizens never had to know :)

[Pavlov's House Party]

Russian Liberation Army aka Vlasov Army, 1944-1945 - These guys seem pretty crazy. I suppose one question might be, where did they stand during the Molotov Ribbentrop pact, and what if they emerged victorious, defeating Germany and the Soviet Union? I guess we would have seen the return of a monarchical system in the Soviet Union.

Most of them were reactionaries who served in the Red Army and deserted, and as the article says it was only formed in 1944, so they didn't really have a stand as a group during the Molotov Ribbentrop pact. If the Germans had emerged victorious, they would have systematically starved the Russian population, given the land to German landlords and have the remaining Russians work as slaves.

If anything, Vlasov's forces would have become some kind of police and anti-partisan force working under the German administration of Russia and the Ukraine. Hitler had no plans of returning any kind of Russian ruling class to a hypothetical Nazi occupied USSR, in fact, he planned to have Moscow destroyed and turned into a giant water resevoir or something.

[Rjevan]

^Exactly this. If Vlasov and his troops really thought that the Germans would hand over Russia to them in case they are victorious to build up a conservative/fascist/monarchist Russia under Russian controll they were idiots beyond imagination.
Everybody who ever took a short look into "Mein Kampf" or listened to Hitler's speeches about the war against the USSR knows what the nazis planned to do with the Russians and that Hitler's main aim (besides of eliminating the Jews) was to "counquer land in the east for the Aryan masterrace" and destroy (or enslave and hold as working slaves when he was in a mild mood) the "subhuman Slavs". And "Mein Kampf" was quite known in the USSR, as far as I know.

Besides, Vlasov should have seen what the Germans did to the part of the Ukraine and the parts of Russia they occupied and this should have been more than a clear sign that they nazis are not out to "liberate" Russia from the "Jewish-Bolshevik scum" and work together with the population but to brutally colonize the area and kill its inhabitants.

[Dimentio]

Russian Liberation Army aka Vlasov Army, 1944-1945 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Liberation_Army) - These guys seem pretty crazy. I suppose one question might be, where did they stand during the Molotov Ribbentrop pact, and what if they emerged victorious, defeating Germany and the Soviet Union? I guess we would have seen the return of a monarchical system in the Soviet Union.

Wasn't it so that Soviet POW's returning to the USSR where imprisoned in labour camps? I guess a lot of the ROA soldiers disliked Hitler as much as Stalin, but that they did what they did simply to survive. While Vlassov was a traitor, he imagined the future Russia not as a fascist puppet but as a bourgeois republic looking like the USA. Some ROA forces also fought alongside the partisans against the SS in the Prague uprising of 1945.

I do not know what motivated the ROA soldiers, but I think most of that organisation was characterised by low discipline. I don't think most of the ROA is comparable with the Waffen SS units, as most of the Soviet POW's had three choices.

1. German Concentration Camp
2. Soviet Labour Camp.
3. ROA

[Woland]

As always, Dimentio has no idea what he is talking about.


Wasn't it so that Soviet POW's returning to the USSR where imprisoned in labour camps?

As Radio Yerevan would say, yes, but less than 15%, them being the ROA officers (and officers of other collaborationist organizations) and non-officers when they actively took part in missions, soldiers who voluntarily joined the German Army, Gestapo agents and agents of similar German organizations, not labour camps but special settlement, for only 6 years, fully rehabilitated and work hours counted in the labour record afterwards. This just shows that the Soviet government was incredibly lenient to the collaborationists. Labour camps were only for those who have been proven to have committed certain crimes.


they did what they did simply to survive

During wartime, the punishment for voluntarily joining the enemy army was execution with property confiscation. So no, they all perfectly knew this. Hence the surprise when they only got 6 years of special settlement.


most of the Soviet POW's had three choices.

1. German Concentration Camp
2. Soviet Labour Camp.
3. ROA

This is such a stupid thing to say, certainly, if Vlasov would have tried to convince people to join him by saying things like this, no doubt the only person to believe him would be you.

[Dimentio]

The quality of life in a Soviet correctional camp was not exactly on the spa level. The ROA volunteers also had to bear in mind the German treatment of Soviet POW's, which was horrific.

The ROA units in Normandy immediately collapsed when the allies landed, surrendering to the western allies in huge numbers. Usual Waffen SS regiments tended to fight to the bitter end (one French Waffen SS division fought in Berlin in 1945). Also, ROA units in Prague rose up for the partisan rebellion there against the Germans, which show that typical ROA units did not hold any love in particular for the Germans. Sure, they were collaborationists and traitors, but reality is never black and white.

[khad]

With so many questionable statements, one must wonder if Dimentio is a fash sympathizer.

According to P.M. Polian, about 200,000 Soviet personnel were retained in NKVD custody following the war out of a total of 1.5 million repatriated. Of these, most were sent to special settlements and rehabilitated, with the rest sent to labor prisons. Very few (like Vlasov and his lieutenants) were executed.


The quality of life in a Soviet correctional camp was not exactly on the spa level. The ROA volunteers also had to bear in mind the German treatment of Soviet POW's, which was horrific.

The GULAG administered labor prisons recorded less than a 1% annual death rate following the war.

[Random Precision]

I recall reading that Vlasov was a pretty good general for the Soviet Union, and had tremendous amounts of pressure put on him as a prisoner by the Germans to switch sides. But that is beside the point; he was simply deluding himself if he thought that he was helping to "free" Russia from communism, and from what I read he did a pretty good job at deluding himself.

Also toward the end of the war the German command lost interest in the RLA project and had what troops remained switched to the Western Front, which Vlasov was disappointed at since there was no longer even the pretense that they were fighting for the liberation of Russia.

To his credit at his trial he took full responsibility for his actions and didn't dissemble or try to save himself.

[Dimentio]

You might wonder as much as you like, Khad. :lol:


Random Precision: Yes, a very tragic story really. He was surrounded, and instead of fighting to the bitter end he surrendered. But the question is if he did it for opportunistic or for ideological reasons (i.e, he didn't like Stalin). Nevertheless, it is a sign of maturity and character that he took all the responsibility himself.

[FSL]

Nevertheless, it is a sign of maturity and character that he took all the responsibility himself.


If I were ever to go out and have a cup of coffee with a nazi collaborator, that would be him.

A fine man I tell ya, a fine man.

[Dimentio]

If I were ever to go out and have a cup of coffee with a nazi collaborator, that would be him.

A fine man I tell ya, a fine man.

Ha ha ha ha. I wouldn't exactly take a cup of tea with him. But I am not so immature that I couldn't acknowledge even of people adhering to despisable beliefs or actions. Like Saddam Hussein. It was strong of him to take full responsibility in the courtroom.

[ComradeOm]

I recall reading that Vlasov was a pretty good general for the Soviet UnionYep. He was very much a rising star in the Red Army and prior to his capture had performed well during both Barbarossa and the Battle of Moscow. Given the general performance of the Red Army during those chaotic months this reflects well on his abilities


Also toward the end of the war the German command lost interest in the RLA project and had what troops remained switched to the Western Front, which Vlasov was disappointed at since there was no longer even the pretense that they were fighting for the liberation of RussiaI can't recall the details (really missing my reference works) but IIRC it was only in the last stages of the war that the RLA actually came into being. It existed on paper alone (if even that) until 1944 as, despite the urging of his generals, Hitler refused to countenance its formation. Only when progress on the Eastern Front had become truly desperate did Hitler greenlight its formation. I don't think it saw action until the Vistula-Oder Offensive. By then of course it was far too late

[Partizani]

In the Red Army, if you were captured you were immediatly labeled a traitor by the state and even if you managed to escape and return the NKVD would bung you into the nearest Gulag for allowing yourself to be captured.

[khad]

In the Red Army, if you were captured you were immediatly labeled a traitor by the state and even if you managed to escape and return the NKVD would bung you into the nearest Gulag for allowing yourself to be captured.
Learn to lie better.


Often, one finds statements that Soviet POWs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_crimes_against_Soviet_POWs) on their return to the Soviet Union were often treated as traitors (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traitor) (see Order No. 270 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_No._270)).[33] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulag#cite_note-warlords-32)[34] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulag#cite_note-remembrance-33)[35] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulag#cite_note-34) According to some sources, over 1.5 million surviving Red Army (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Army) soldiers imprisoned by the Germans were sent to the Gulag.[36] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulag#cite_note-sort-35)[37] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulag#cite_note-brutality-36)[38] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulag#cite_note-moreorless-37) However, that is a confusion with two other types of camps. During and after World War II freed PoWs went to special "filtration" camps. Of these, by 1944, more than 90 per cent were cleared, and about 8 per cent were arrested or condemned to penal battalions. In 1944, they were sent directly to reserve military formations to be cleared by the NKVD. Further, in 1945, about 100 filtration camps were set for repatriated Ostarbeiter, PoWs, and other displaced persons, which processed more than 4,000,000 people. By 1946, 80 per cent civilians and 20 per cent of PoWs were freed, 5 per cent of civilians, and 43 per cent of PoWs re-drafted, 10 per cent of civilians and 22 per cent of PoWs were sent to construction battalions, and 2 per cent of civilians and 15 per cent of the PoWs (226,127 out of 1,539,475 total) transferred to the NKVD, i.e. the Gulag.[39] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulag#cite_note-38)[40] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulag#cite_note-39)

[Partizani]

Your source is wikipedia? are you kidding me. Mine is Stalingrad By Anthony Beevor.

[The Author]

The quality of life in a Soviet correctional camp was not exactly on the spa level. The ROA volunteers also had to bear in mind the German treatment of Soviet POW's, which was horrific.

Do explain to me how someone like Alexander Solzhenitsyn, who had a terminal cancer, managed to make a full healthy recovery while in the gulags. Next you'll tell us interned prisoners ate dirt for breakfast, lunch, and dinner and wore only rags for clothing....

[khad]

Your source is wikipedia? are you kidding me. Mine is Stalingrad By Anthony Beevor.
Beevor is a well known soviet basher who is a pop historian and a disgustingly poor one at that. He allows his own emotions and speculations to get in the way of the facts. For instance I remember in his Stalingrad book he talked about how this Soviet AT crew shot down multiple aircraft. One of the men was an engineer who was able to make the calculations for such high deflection shots, but in Beevor's mind Soviet troops were so stupid and barbaric that they "probably" didn't give a shit about the numbers. If you know anything about AA sighting, you won't hit anything without the calculations. This is but one small piece of the consistently anti-Soviet attitude in his books.

He also makes a huge deal about postwar rapes which occurred in Germany while completely glossing over the rape and thievery that the Wehrmacht committed when they invaded east.

Those figures I presented are taken from soviet NKVD archives and can be accessed through the work of Pavel Polian (I seem to have lost my notes, unfortunately), who does work with soviet-era demography, esp with matters dealing with deportation and imprisonment. Or, if you want the Zemskov article, you can look it up:

Земское В.Н. К вопросу о репатриации советских граждан. 1944-1951 годы // История СССР. 1990. № 4

[Partizani]

Soviet AT crew shot down multiple aircraft. One of the men was an engineer who was able to make the calculations for such high deflection shots, but in Beevor's mind Soviet troops were so stupid and barbaric that they "probably" didn't give a shit about the numbers. If you know anything about AA sighting, you won't hit anything without the calculations. This is but one small piece of the consistently anti-Soviet attitude in his books.

This is wrong, you need to check your quotes. Beevor states it was a LMG mounted on some kind of metal pole with a wooden wheel mounted on top. Now soviet AA guns were in VERY short supply throughout Stalingrad (something which allowed Richthoffens airforce dominance throughout most of the battle). He then goes onto to say 'whether or not this actually worked is uncertain'. Now by saying that LMG's mounted on AA emplacements did nothing to stop aircraft, all the Lewis guns, Bren guns, DP28 and MG34/42's with specially made AA mounts were all for nothing?

His view on the Red army is a non-biased one, he talks alot of soviet bravery and skill during the Battle of Stalingrad. Citing Chuikov as a genius.

This is getting very off-topic. My original statement was that ROA troops would have been sent to the nearest Gulag upon thier repatriation within the USSR, something which you might find VERY hard to dispute.

[Kayser_Soso]

I have a few things to add about this discussion. We know for a fact Stalin was the biggest mass murderer in history next Hitler.

No, actually he was not. FAIL.



We have Vlasov who gets captured a Russian war hero left and being surrounded near Lenningrad left to die.

Vlassov pressed an attack when ordered to wait. He was not much of a "hero" either. People like Rokossovsky, Kirponos, Timoshenko, and Zhukov had already begun to show their abilities.



If you guys really read about Vlasov and his life he was agaisnt communism being of peasant stock only joining very late the communist party for rise in the ranks to make a life.

This is why there were purges.



You cannot call this man a traitor or those officers and troops such names they felt and believed they would have a better life under one of the lesser two evils HITLER.

By that logic we can't blame any Nazis at all for what they did, because they all made the same choice.



Lets face it why would 1 million plus Russians join the Germans this number is maybe higher or lower because we all should know that in fear of disobeying Hitlers orders they did not list the numbers of Hiwis on the German rolls.

Actually it is probably higher, because it counts Hiwis. By your logic, why would millions of Germans support the Nazis? Are you suggesting that maybe Hitler was right, as to how terrible the Weimar republic was?



People like Koch, and Rosenberg ran there districts like plantations. Only Western Ukraine was looked at along with the Baltics as anything close to ARYAN after of course close reconsideration.

Actually the Nazis were so desperate for troops that enlisted soldiers from any nationality from Korean to Arab.



These Russians hoped maybe the Germans would change their views on the Russians and after time they did when they were losing the war but Hitler did not see from the start the Russian people looking to Germany as liberators.

No, the "Russian people" were not looking to Germany as liberators. In fact only in the Baltic States and Western Ukraine, maybe Western Belarus, was there any popularity for the Germans. The Ukrainian nationalists were disappointed to find that they weren't hailed as liberators once they passed into Eastern Ukraine.



Still even when the Eastern Front was collapsing volunteers were still coming forward to the Germans makes you think how bad they really had it in Russia. Vlasov and his movement were willing to do whatever it took to rid communism from there lives. People rely on HOPE

Hope of fascism, after witnessing the crimes it committed. You need to put down the crack pipe.

[Kayser_Soso]

This is wrong, you need to check your quotes. Beevor states it was a LMG mounted on some kind of metal pole with a wooden wheel mounted on top. Now soviet AA guns were in VERY short supply throughout Stalingrad (something which allowed Richthoffens airforce dominance throughout most of the battle). He then goes onto to say 'whether or not this actually worked is uncertain'. Now by saying that LMG's mounted on AA emplacements did nothing to stop aircraft, all the Lewis guns, Bren guns, DP28 and MG34/42's with specially made AA mounts were all for nothing?

His view on the Red army is a non-biased one, he talks alot of soviet bravery and skill during the Battle of Stalingrad. Citing Chuikov as a genius.

This is getting very off-topic. My original statement was that ROA troops would have been sent to the nearest Gulag upon thier repatriation within the USSR, something which you might find VERY hard to dispute.


Actually I believe the quote was an AT-rifle, most assuredly a PTRS, which was semi-automatic. I say this because this rifle was occasionally used in this role throughout the war, and it makes sense that Beevor would highlight its use in this role as it is uncommon.

[Kayser_Soso]

In the Red Army, if you were captured you were immediatly labeled a traitor by the state and even if you managed to escape and return the NKVD would bung you into the nearest Gulag for allowing yourself to be captured.


Wrong, and my sources are better and more updated than yours. Most people who were captured were simply returned to service. In fact, occasionally they were liberated almost immediately after being captured in battles where the front was very fluid, such as Stalingrad. Voices from Stalingrad cites one such NKVD report. The overwhelming majority of rescued POWs were simply returned to duty.


EDIT: I now see that Khad already posted an example of a direct NKVD source, along with the figures. I am not typing from home now so I can't quote from my copy of Voices from Stalingrad for the figure I mentioned earlier. However, Khad is absolutely correct; Soviet POWs went to "filtration camps", which were not GULAGs, nor were they prison camps at all. They were just established for the purpose of screening POWs to root out spies and collaborators.

[Intelligitimate]

Your source is wikipedia? are you kidding me. Mine is Stalingrad By Anthony Beevor.

Beevor is a Nazi-sympathizer.

"STALINGRAD" by ANTONY BEEVOR - a piece of Nazi war propaganda (http://www.mariosousa.se/ReviewBeevorStalingrad050729.html)

[Kayser_Soso]

PS SOSO Stalin was the biggest Killer 20 million of his own people what about Poland, Hungary, Czech Rep, Slovakia, Romania, Bulgaria, and East Germany. Tito took care of Yugoslavia... Hitler 6 million Jews. He didnt kill 20 million of his own people and no way did he even come close to his kill number any where else..

Hold on there, Nazi sympathizer. Stalin did not kill 20 million of his own people. The demographics and records simply don't support it. Neither did Hitler just kill 6 million Jews. Hitler started a war that killed over 50 million people, and the Holocaust claimed the lives of at least 12 million people, not just the 5-6 million estimated Jews. Far more importantly, these campaigns of extermination were deliberate ordered by Hitler, with the explicit order to exterminate entire groups of people. This was part of Hitler's philosophy.



Nikitia Khrushchev knew what a douschebag Stalin was moved his body out of the heroes tomb.

Khruschev was a liar, and an incompetent moron. Nearly every single claim he made in his 1956 secret speech has been debunked, some of it even before the fall of the USSR.



This same man if you read Nikita's memoirs which you havent obviously you will find passage about Vlasov being a dedicated and brave commander who was selected by himself and Stalin. Stalin who was going to make Vlasov commander of the Stalingrad Front over Yemenko. Vlasov he stated dedicated, brave, and skill. Also said, He had no established Ideology and seems to be not a bad guy.

Khruschev's memoirs are utterly worthless. History has proven him wrong on so many levels. Khruschev's claims about Stalin planning strategy with a globe, or how he supposedly disappeared for 11 days and got drunk after 22 June were debunked long before the opening of the archives in Zhukov's memoirs- which incidentally are backed up by hard evidence found since then.

Your obvious Nazi sympathies are noted.

[Kayser_Soso]

SOSO,


Russians and other republics did see the Germans as liberators.

Wrong.



I hate to burst your fantasy bubble you live in but not all volunteers were from the Baltics, Belarus, Ukraine or various republics in Russia as a whole but also full blooded Russian look at the KONR, Kaminski ranks for examples.

I hate to burst your bubble but I am well aware of the presence of Muscovite Russian units and I have most likely read more on the subject than you. First of all, KONR is bullshit because that was nothing but a new name for the ROA, and that was a paper tiger at the time. More importantly, the real motive for nearly all these volunteers, including non-Russians, was STARVATION and abuse. Please tell me you were aware of how Soviet POWs were treated in captivity.



You are absolutley wrong on the Hiwis. It was treason to use armed Russians or Russians or various blah blah from wherever in the empire at all since they were labeled untermenschen and of fear to turn those arms against Germans.

You don't know what the fuck you are talking about. Hiwis were never armed officially, but Cossack volunteers and Ostbattalions WERE armed. It was only after 1943(during the Dnieper campaign off the top of my head) that Ostbattalions were blamed for failures at the front and the majority if not nearly all were moved into Western Europe.

Incidentally, once the ROA was actually formed into 2 divisions they did fight an action against the Red Army at Frankfurt am Oder. Photos from shortly before this period shows many of the troops were rather well armed for the period.

[narcomprom]

You should be wary of Soviet era historians, their consensus is quite far from what it is either in the West or in Russia today.

[Kayser_Soso]

You should be wary of Soviet era historians, their consensus is quite far from what it is either in the West or in Russia today.

On the other hand there was a lot of corroborated evidence in the Soviet Union which was never kept secret, but just never translated. In the West, for a long time it was generally the German ex-Wehrmacht officers who dictated history on the Eastern Front. See the book The Myth of the Eastern Front to see how this came about.

[khad]

You should be wary of Soviet era historians, their consensus is quite far from what it is either in the West or in Russia today.
Huh? Neither Polian nor Zemskov are Soviet-era historians.