What about "jobs" that contribute nothing to society?

[ontheyslay]

When I have conversations with people about anarchism, someone always asks me what about race car drivers, football players, baseball players, everyone would want to be one so nothing will ever be produced. I point out this is ridiculous, if everyone were a race car driver or a professional hockey player or whatever they would be working against their own interests and would actively be destroying themselves, and no society would actually do that.

But what about professional athletes, would simply playing a professional sport give you the right to food, a house, etc.? I would say no, professional athletes don't really contribute anything to society and the only reason they are considered a "job" in a capitalist society is because they produce an enormous amount of revenue. Any thoughts?

[Muzk]

dont you like sitting infront of the TV watching football?

[ontheyslay]

I like to watch hockey.

[Muzk]

me too

[ontheyslay]

As a matter of fact I'm watching hockey right now.

[Muzk]

so, i guess the question solved itself? :D

[ontheyslay]

Hahaha

[ArrowLance]

That's like saying movies, novels, and music are worthless to society. Not everyone wants to be in theses things, and they are beneficial to society.

[hefty_lefty]

Sports are good in some ways, they showcase the abilities of the human body as well as creating a competitive spirit among friends.
Just because we're commies doesn't mean we can't have fun.
The olympics have succeeded in keeping the real spirit of sport alive, this world-wide comradarie is good for society.

Nascar, trash it. What a brain numbing experience, driving around an oval...500 times?
I don't get it.

[Orange Juche]

Recreation is rather necessary for the mental health and well being of any person. Whether it be a novel, or watching a ballgame, or anything else. I think these careers serve a rather important purpose in society.

[Orange Juche]

Nascar, trash it. What a brain numbing experience, driving around an oval...500 times?
I don't get it.

I think it's more about getting trashed and hoping a bunch of cars smash into each other and explode. haha.

[ontheyslay]

I'm not saying people shouldn't engage in sports, but should it be considered a job?

[gorillafuck]

People will want entertainment and musicians, actors, sports players, etc. provide entertainment for people. Otherwise socialist society would be pretty dull.

[Tatarin]

But people engaged in sports do not only work with sports, right? They do many other things, like designing their own house, or painting their cars, or whatever they do. The same goes for people who make and act in movies, or make music.

Communist society is rather build for art and games. "Usual work", like building houses and producing food, would most likely be automatized, and in any case, the work day would be decided upon and would be considerably shorter than it is today (considering there are millions of people in any single country).

I'd say that sports and entertainment is what people would most be engaged in, while the most unpleasant work would be rotated and eventually simplified by robotics.

[ontheyslay]

But people engaged in sports do not only work with sports, right? They do many other things, like designing their own house, or painting their cars, or whatever they do. The same goes for people who make and act in movies, or make music.

Communist society is rather build for art and games. "Usual work", like building houses and producing food, would most likely be automatized, and in any case, the work day would be decided upon and would be considerably shorter than it is today (considering there are millions of people in any single country).

I'd say that sports and entertainment is what people would most be engaged in, while the most unpleasant work would be rotated and eventually simplified by robotics.

That makes sense. Thank you.

[Revy]

Isn't entertainment what is being produced? Because if it were something we didn't value, we wouldn't watch it.

[Niccolò Rossi]

I think it's important when considering this question that we keep in mind one of the essential traits of a communist society, namely the abolition of the social division of labour.

Will there be competitive sporting events in a commnist society? Certainly. Will it be the sole life activity of a select group of individuals or be deprived from the vast majority of the population? Certainly not.

There is a good quotation of Marx which captures the reality of the abolition of the division of labour in communist society:

"In communist society, where nobody has one exclusive sphere of activity but each can become accomplished in any branch he wishes, society regulates the general production and thus makes it possible for me to do one thing today and another tomorrow, to hunt in the morning, fish in the afternoon, rear cattle in the evening, criticise after dinner, just as I have a mind, without ever becoming hunter, fisherman, herdsman or critic." - Marx, German Ideology (http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1845/german-ideology/ch01a.htm#a4) (1845)

On the topic of jobs that do not contribute to society, there are much more significant unproductive activities that communist society will do away with such as armaments production and the banking and financial sectors.

[Post-Something]

Solutions simple really. You make everyone a baseball player, artist, musician, race car driver etc, by giving them enough time in a day away from work to participate in all these activites.

[communard resolution]

What does Karl Marx mean when he demands the creation of "industrial armies" in the Communist Manifesto? Since he doesn't elaborate upon his concept of an "army", does this imply traditional army discipline where orders are given and obeyed (rather than steps to be taken democratically agreed upon)?

[Comrade Gwydion]

But people engaged in sports do not only work with sports, right? They do many other things, like designing their own house, or painting their cars, or whatever they do. The same goes for people who make and act in movies, or make music.

Communist society is rather build for art and games. "Usual work", like building houses and producing food, would most likely be automatized, and in any case, the work day would be decided upon and would be considerably shorter than it is today (considering there are millions of people in any single country).

I'd say that sports and entertainment is what people would most be engaged in, while the most unpleasant work would be rotated and eventually simplified by robotics.


Solutions simple really. You make everyone a baseball player, artist, musician, race car driver etc, by giving them enough time in a day away from work to participate in all these activites.

I think this is terribily naïve actually. Automatisation can't solve everything, especially service industry. I want to get advise from a thinkin human, not some fucking programmed machine.
Besides, you don't become a proffesional sportsman by training a few hours twice a week.


What does Karl Marx mean when he demands the creation of "industrial armies" in the Communist Manifesto? Since he doesn't elaborate upon his concept of an "army", does this imply traditional army discipline where orders are given and obeyed (rather than steps to be taken democratically agreed upon)?

I'd imagine it'd have to do with the results of the discipline (high motivation, high efficience etc) rather than the way of creating discipline (un-democratic decision making, verbal abuse, physical abuse etc), though honestly I wouldn't know.
He could just as wel be referring to a revolutionairy army by industrial workers.



@topic
Honestly, I think communism would (should) be an enormous blow to proffesional sports. I think that a lot of the money spend on proffesional sports should be spend on ending world hunger and amateur sports.

[Muzk]

What does Karl Marx mean when he demands the creation of "industrial armies" in the Communist Manifesto? Since he doesn't elaborate upon his concept of an "army", does this imply traditional army discipline where orders are given and obeyed (rather than steps to be taken democratically agreed upon)?

He meant that heavy industry, now owned by the workers, needs an "army", a militia to defend them from imperialist power from the outside... at least that's how it was in the GDR, though they cancelled it when there was a sign of rebellion against the SED dictatorship.. :D

Yes, armies have to be disciplined and "brainless", look at the USA, you'll get what I mean man...

[Irish commie]

I do not see a need for prfoessional sports players etc. as i think that they will have plenty of free time to persue something like this. sportsmen/women ahould do it for te glory. Here i cite the example of ireland the two majot sports hurling and gaelic football are both amateur but still very skillfullt played and ebtertaining to watch in competitive events.

[robbo203]

What does Karl Marx mean when he demands the creation of "industrial armies" in the Communist Manifesto? Since he doesn't elaborate upon his concept of an "army", does this imply traditional army discipline where orders are given and obeyed (rather than steps to be taken democratically agreed upon)?

He was not talking about communism - the notion of hierachical domination is alien and anathema to communism - but about the way in which industrial life is organised in capitalism. Here is the relevant quote:

Modern Industry has converted the little workshop of the patriarchal master into the great factory of the industrial capitalist. Masses of labourers, crowded into the factory, are organised like soldiers. As privates of the industrial army they are placed under the command of a perfect hierarchy of officers and sergeants. Not only are they slaves of the bourgeois class, and of the bourgeois State; they are daily and hourly enslaved by the machine, by the overlooker, and, above all, by the individual bourgeois manufacturer himself.

[Durruti's Ghost]

He was not talking about communism - the notion of hierachical domination is alien and anathema to communism - but about the way in which industrial life is organised in capitalism. Here is the relevant quote:

Modern Industry has converted the little workshop of the patriarchal master into the great factory of the industrial capitalist. Masses of labourers, crowded into the factory, are organised like soldiers. As privates of the industrial army they are placed under the command of a perfect hierarchy of officers and sergeants. Not only are they slaves of the bourgeois class, and of the bourgeois State; they are daily and hourly enslaved by the machine, by the overlooker, and, above all, by the individual bourgeois manufacturer himself.

Actually, he was talking about communism, sort of. The industrial armies quote comes from the ten "planks" that he believed a workers' state would implement during the transition from capitalism to communism. These are the same ten planks that he repudiated in an introduction to a later edition--1871 or 1872, I think.

[proudcomrade]

I think that professional sports could be considered a worthy job, in that they encourage activity and good health habits in the kids who emulate them. They also provide recreation and a social opportunity for the people. This becomes especially crucial during harder times, e.g. when the people are under siege from cap enemies abroad, or when in danger of lowered morale when crops and supplies are not always abundant. Plus, the prestige that the international competitions bring reflects really, really well on the Revolution for having produced fine athletes. The ancient Greeks recommended physical athleticism as a cornerstone of cultural development. Because this takes constant, rigorous training daily from earliest childhood, it is not something that could be balanced with other work all that easily, even under the greatly-improved work conditions that we would see. They would truly need all of their time to devote to their sport.

There is a reason why Russia churned out all of those Olympic gymnasts, and why Cuba still churns out all of those ballerinas and baseball players to this day. It's a positive for the common good; and those who devote themselves to it through constant pain, sweat and sacrifice are just as much a crew of the people's workers as are the ones in the fields.

[Tatarin]

I think this is terribily naïve actually. Automatisation can't solve everything, especially service industry.

In the beginning, perhaps yes. But with time, much of the hard works would become much easier. More time on robotization, which becomes smarter, and thus industry becomes even more easier. This is of course in a timeline of 500-1000 years.


I want to get advise from a thinkin human, not some fucking programmed machine.

Of course not. But when robotization is smart enough, why would anyone bother with heavy industry?


Besides, you don't become a proffesional sportsman by training a few hours twice a week.

Why would there be a need for professional sportsmen?

[robbo203]

Actually, he was talking about communism, sort of. The industrial armies quote comes from the ten "planks" that he believed a workers' state would implement during the transition from capitalism to communism. These are the same ten planks that he repudiated in an introduction to a later edition--1871 or 1872, I think.

Well, yes and no. The ten reforms mentioned in the Manifesto did indeed include a reference to industrial armies - viz no.7 . "Equal liability of all to work. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture". But this "transitional stage" was not communism and not even "sort of" communism - actually it was still fundamentally capitalism - albeit run (supposedly) by the workers. And like you said, Marx and Engels later repudiated more or less all these reforms

But I think the earlier quote from the Manifesto suggests a pejorative approach on the part of Marx and Engels towards the question of "industrial armies":

Modern Industry has converted the little workshop of the patriarchal master into the great factory of the industrial capitalist. Masses of labourers, crowded into the factory, are organised like soldiers. As privates of the industrial army they are placed under the command of a perfect hierarchy of officers and sergeants. Not only are they slaves of the bourgeois class, and of the bourgeois State; they are daily and hourly enslaved by the machine, by the overlooker, and, above all, by the individual bourgeois manufacturer himself.

Its suggests they disapproved of the military-style organisation of industrial life under capitalism which enslaves the workers. Under the circumstances, to talk of industral armies in communism would be wholly inappropriate

[Comrade Gwydion]

Of course not. But when robotization is smart enough, why would anyone bother with heavy industry?

I find it a very difficult thought of having Robots with such a high intelligence (and a little de-personalizing thought as well....), but given the timeline you gave it could be very well possible, and indeed even desirable, especially for heavy or dull work, like you said.




Why would there be a need for professional sportsmen?

There wouldn't, in my opinion. I just thought you meant that because of the extra sparetime people could become a proffesional(level) sportsman in their sparetime

[Post-Something]

I think this is terribily naïve actually. Automatisation can't solve everything, especially service industry. I want to get advise from a thinkin human, not some fucking programmed machine.
Besides, you don't become a proffesional sportsman by training a few hours twice a week.

Whats naive? Lots of automatisation simply doesn't get made because it isn't profitable. People will still work. They just won't work as much, because everyone will work in the same class, therefore requiring less of everyones time.
The idea of socialism came about based on the idea that people should have more time to pursue things like art, philosophy, sport etc. And if the time which they have to work is reduced, there will obviously be a much larger emphasis on recreational activities.

If you actually look at sport, what you see on tv is a much different version of how it started out. It used to be a community thing before it was snatched up by the profit incentive. Nobody started out doing things like buying players, bringing politics and nationalism into the mix, or appearing on adverts. Sport was a completely different thing, and will be a completely different thing in a socialist society.

[bcbm]

Automatisation can't solve everything, especially service industry.

i think the service industry as it exists today, particularly food service, would be radically transformed, if not outright destroyed, in a communist society.

[The Broke Cycle]

I think that professional sports could be considered a worthy job, in that they encourage activity and good health habits in the kids who emulate them. They also provide recreation and a social opportunity for the people. This becomes especially crucial during harder times, e.g. when the people are under siege from cap enemies abroad, or when in danger of lowered morale when crops and supplies are not always abundant. Plus, the prestige that the international competitions bring reflects really, really well on the Revolution for having produced fine athletes. The ancient Greeks recommended physical athleticism as a cornerstone of cultural development. Because this takes constant, rigorous training daily from earliest childhood, it is not something that could be balanced with other work all that easily, even under the greatly-improved work conditions that we would see. They would truly need all of their time to devote to their sport.

There is a reason why Russia churned out all of those Olympic gymnasts, and why Cuba still churns out all of those ballerinas and baseball players to this day. It's a positive for the common good; and those who devote themselves to it through constant pain, sweat and sacrifice are just as much a crew of the people's workers as are the ones in the fields.

I agree. Considering the impact obesity is having, I think a focus on sports would do many people good.