Before Night Falls

[vox]

For any of you who wish to defend the undemocratic and fascist state of Cuba, you would do well to watch the film Before Night Falls, which chronicles the atrocities perpetrated against homosexuals and artists in Castro's Cuba.

Socialism is NOT imposed from above but demanded from below. Castro is nothing but Batista serving a different master, but not the people.

[Danton]

Bollox...

Yeah I saw that trite, pretentious piece of filthy propaganda...

As if Cuba was the only country to be ignorant of homosexual rights in the 60's. I beleive sodomy is still illeagal in many U.S states whereas Cuba has become like many countries tolerant. I hardly think "atrocities" were committed against this weasel. What did he find when he got to the U.S - land of the free? Disease ridden suicide by asphyixiation in a filthy apartment....

To compare Fidel to Batista is a squalid, ignorant insult to the memory of the people who were genuinely tortured under that fucking whore of the yanquis, Cuba's socialism was and still is demanded from what you call "below". Get your fucking head straight...


"CREEMOS EN FIDEL Y EN LA REVOLUCION"

[canikickit]

Come now, Danton, no need to lose the head.

Vox, I believe that Larissa (who spent a lot of time in Cuba) said that gay people are now accepted legally in Cuba (I'd imagine there are still prejudices which survive, they're not going anywhere for now). I've heard that the anti-homosexual legislation was removed.

I agree with Danton that putting Fidel on a level of Batista isn't quite fair. The world isn't black and white, and life is good for many in Cuba. I do not believe that Ciuba is an ideal place, however.

But not to get into that, I've heard of that film before, why don't you write a bit more on it? It sounded good.

[Rastafari]

are gay people treated as such (people) anywere in the world)? Especially in the fucking sixties, gay people were not accepted except in one little nook of the nation that I live in, called San Fransisco.

Oh, and if you lose the head, your sex life is over
:cool:

[vox]

Danton,

You call it "propaganda," but it isn't.

It's the TRUTH.

Indeed, if it were propaganda then all would have been good in the great USA, right? But it wasn't, as you yourself said. In order to be propaganda, an item doesn't just have to be against one thing, but for something else, and I do not for a moment believe you will be able to make the argument that this was a "pro-USA" work for it clearly wasn't.

That's the horror of the film.

The artist escaped Castro's hell on earth only to be delivered to capitalism's hell on earth.

The relativist bullshit you spew (As if Cuba was the only country to be ignorant of homosexual rights in the 60's) is nothing more than mediation through association: you seek to excuse the sins of one by invoking the sins of another.

In short, it's complete bullshit.

You wrote:

I hardly think "atrocities" were committed against this weasel.

So, are you denying the validity of his report? If so, do you have anything more than your own prejudice and bias to support this as yet unsubstantiated notion?

NO.

You don't.

Indeed, you offer nothing in refutation at all, do you?

No, and no again and again.

Again, you wrote:

Cuba's socialism was and still is demanded from what you call "below".

So, why not let them vote?

Why not let them decide for themselves, this underclass that lives everyday under a dictatorship, who should lead them?

Because Castro wants power, that's why.

Castro doesn't want socialism. Che may have wanted socialism, and he was disowned for that.

Castro is no hero. Castro is no model.

You say you saw the film, right?

Then you must have seen Castro's abominable and hateful speeches as well.

In Cuba, who has control?

Castro.

In socialism, who has control?

The WORKERS.

See the difference?

Probably not, for you seem to be one of those idiots who would rather live in the world of ideology than in the world of the flesh. We workers don't have that option. It's a MATERIAL condition denied us.

Fuck you, worm.

And fuck your hateful, inhuman and fascist ideology.

[Lefty]

So, your case against Fidel is that
1. He was homophobic in the 60's and
2. He is a bad man, because there are no free elections in Cuba.

What "hateful" speeches do you speak of? Where is the hate directed? The only hate I've ever seen him espouse is directed towards the U.S.A and its allies.

[Lefty]

Oh, and vox: can I use "Fuck you, worm" in my conversations too? That's a really good insult. I mean, its short, but to the point. I imagine it could be useful.

[vox]

Lefty,

Read and learn about the treatment of homosexuals and artists in the years following Castro's revolution. Then, perhaps, you might understand.

To dismiss the mistreatment of actual human beings by simply saying that, oh, Castro "was homophobic in the 60's" is to deny the suffering of real, actual, material human beings.

How a "socialist" can defend the imprisonment and torture of human beings based on gender preference is beyond me, really.

Pleast, "Lefty," explain to me how brutalizing homosexuals and artists assists in the changing of the social relations of production, for THAT is the requirement of the revolution, isn't it?

Isn't that what Marx went on and on about?

Yes, of course it was.

Look, I've no time for assholes and their futile attempts to belittle me. I'm right, asshole, you're wrong. You may not like it, but that's the way it is.

So, if you've something to say defendeing Castro's inhuman stance, bring it on. If all you've got is hating me, sorry, you lose, try again later.

Because, boy, history is on MY side.

The facts are on MY side.

The trith is on MY side.

On your side? Well, you've got hatred of me.

And that's about it. Worthless, really.

vox

[Danton]

Mr/Ms? VOX:

You've degraded yourself and this thread by hurling unwarrented insults at me in your - ten days in the making assault on my good character and Fidel's regime, Tell me, do you form all your ideological opinions through watching overblown arthouse movies?

This should be re-assigned elsewhere if we are to discuss more weightier issues than Hollywood biopics. However I shall briefly humour your tawdry little diatribe even though in your blinkered scope of reality I am already wrong.

Reinaldo Arenas joined Fidel and his Guerilla's in their insurrection because Batista's regime was starving his family - he beleived in the revolution, he was arrested years later - not for being homosexual but on charges of child molestation - in the film, his account - these charges were false, no doubt Cuban records would disagree. Are you following VOX?

OK.. Already we are dealing with his word against the plaintive and the officials who arrested him, tell me VOX have you ever vistited Cuba - no? I have, twice and will be returning in November, no not as some rosy eyed tourist but as someone who understands what true freedom and equality and justice and socialism is. The election issue is extremely fatigued - yes they had an election and Fidel won, yes you will question it's validity and we shall go merrily round in roundabouts. One thing I can say is most Cubans I've met (a broad demographic) are absolutley steadfast in their support of Fidel....

If your frame of reference is limited to motion pictures and fiction where truths are twisted to meet popular demand then you really should'nt make such wild assupmtions.

PROPAGANDA doesn't adhere to strict rules as you suggest, it can be promotion, defamation, a mixture of both and in this case - on the highly questionable testimony of one disgruntled peodophile(a long time dead of sexual disease contracted in U.S) condemnation of not only a SOCIALIST regime but an extinct macho culture. As I have had to tell SLINJIM before; If in your retort you again descend into mindless insults - I wont bother replying, but if you can muster up an intelligent rebuke, I will glady listen....convince me, change my mind, tell me what reflects the Cuban people's TRUTHS, not just the Hollywood representation of one dead pervert....


"CREEMOS EN FIDEL Y EN LA REVOLUCION"

[Severian]

Yeah, this is supposed to be the forum for discussing literature, y'know books and stuff, not movies.

But here's a good review of Before Night Falls. (http://www.seeingred.com/Copy/4.2_sexualpolitics.html) Points out where the movie is massively inaccurate. Hint: it's fiction, not a documentary.