The Gun Debate

[MilitantAnarchist]

Carrying on from the other thread...

Right, so we can get my views nice and sparkling clean... I can see your point and argument with the whole gun issue... And i agree with it in part... the state shouldnt hold a gun in one hand, and take yours away with the other, that aint fair and it is control.

I understand that the vast majority of 'gun crime's i committed with an illegal weapon, not legal ones, and that if someone is gonna kill, they are going to do it anyway with a knife or whatever, so it doesnt prevent crime... But that is not my beef...

My beef is, that if attitudes around guns are 'acceptable' it harms society, it is just promoting violence. The only use for a gun, is to kill... fair play people can just shoot targets, but they are 100% purely for murder... I dont believe that guns are the way forward, it is stepping backwards. We all want peace dont we? I dont want to live under a even more oppressive force where guns are fine and for anyone to own. Fuck guns!

Someone once said, i forget who that 'you cant have peace without violence' but that is bullshit. I see no real use for guns in 'our' view for a better society, you cant use guns to overthrow a current government, not if what you want is a better life for the working class... Your just gonna be the same oppressive state but with people walking about with guns. The state uses guns, their weapon is violence, you cant fight fire with fire.

And i'll end my first post with a Charlie Harper quote (UK Subs),
'After Dumblane, how can you hold a gun and say your innocent?'

I want to hear how you lot think i'm wrong... please discuss

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

You can use guns to stop yobs kicking your head in. Old people can use guns so they can go out at night women can use guns so that they can defend themselves against men. Workers can use guns so they can defend themselves against the police. Also don't be ridiculous about guns promoting a culture of violence I think its quite the oposite, your english come on we both know how fucking awesome hitting someone in the face is.

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGmNDie5HvI

[MilitantAnarchist]

You can use guns to stop yobs kicking your head in.
'Yobs' can shoot me in the head according to you.

Old people can use guns so they can go out at night
Old people should be able to go out at night anyway, how can you stop the people that might mug an old person having a gun?

women can use guns so that they can defend themselves against men.
Men shouldnt be hurting women anyway... domestic violence swings both ways to you know... and men can also be raped by women, i know it isnt as publicised, but i'm speaking from experience, and if you say 'yea a woman forced me to have sex with her' you'd get laughed at... Deal with problems in society, dont just give peopel guns! And also, the guy can have a gun to, so how is an armed woman gonna help the issue?

Workers can use guns so they can defend themselves against the police.
Reality check, police have guns. If we all have a gun, every copper will have a gun, right now in the UK, majority dont have guns. Maybe in some 1930's front line strike action armed workers might of held police away, but now, do you REALLY think it would help atall?

Also don't be ridiculous about guns promoting a culture of violence I think its quite the oposite, your english come on we both know how fucking awesome hitting someone in the face is.
I've just answered the first bit i think... But living in fear old 'yobs' thinking old people cant walk the streets at night (most older people do, its fucked up when they get hurt or mugged, but it happens to anyone now), thinking women are constantly being beaten by men and being sodomised down dark alleys, all that isnt REAL life, it happens, it does everywhere even in armed countries like america, but giving people guns here isnt gonna do a thing... Fearing all that shit is fearing violence already, arming that fear is even worse!... and that last part you said was a joke right?

[Havet]

For anyone with doubts, this website (which i found out at someone's sig here) tells you everything you need to know:

http://www.britainneedsguns.co.uk/

Check out the myths section.

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

'Yobs' can shoot me in the head according to you.


Yes they can, they contact someone in the know normally a dealer or there supplier and inquire that way thats the way its normally done. Scumbuckets unlike you or me are not really bothered about five years in prison for firearms possession if they are going to be shooting people. (However people who buy a gun just in case someone tries to hurt them is going to be seriously put off at being put in a cell for half a decade.



Old people should be able to go out at night anyway, how can you stop the people that might mug an old person having a gun?

You cant simple as billions are spent trying to stop drugs , guns and even people from getting into the UK yet they fail every time.



Men shouldnt be hurting women anyway

Yes but they do. This isn't fairy land this is earth.


... domestic violence swings both ways to you know... and men can also be raped by women, i know it isnt as publicised, but i'm speaking from experience, and if you say 'yea a woman forced me to have sex with her' you'd get laughed at... Deal with problems in society, dont just give peopel guns! And also, the guy can have a gun to, so how is an armed woman gonna help the issue?

99% of the time women are weaker then men. You know this.




Reality check, police have guns. If we all have a gun, every copper will have a gun, right now in the UK, majority dont have guns. Maybe in some 1930's front line strike action armed workers might of held police away, but now, do you REALLY think it would help atall?

Yes of course. If you defeat the unarmed police do you think they are going to give up and go home. No fuck off they are going to call in the armed response and will start filling people with holes. The point is to be able to prevent them from doing that.



I've just answered the first bit i think... But living in fear old 'yobs' thinking old people cant walk the streets at night (most older people do, its fucked up when they get hurt or mugged, but it happens to anyone now), thinking women are constantly being beaten by men and being sodomised down dark alleys, all that isnt REAL life, it happens, it does everywhere even in armed countries like america, but giving people guns here isnt gonna do a thing... Fearing all that shit is fearing violence already, arming that fear is even worse!... and that last part you said was a joke right?

Of course I dont think its awsome to hit people in the face even though that is a widespread view in society burying your asumption of barbaric yanks and and Civil brits in the dirt. However this is all irelevant

If you do not support the arming of the working class you are a reactionary. No expectations.

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

For anyone with doubts, this website (which i found out at someone's sig here) tells you everything you need to know:

http://www.britainneedsguns.co.uk/

Check out the myths section.

"Cough"pay attention to me"Cough"

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

Seriously though check my sig.

Also if anyones wondering why there are gun laws in the UK , yeah sorry thats our fault.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Sidney_Street

[Jazzratt]

And i'll end my first post with a Charlie Harper quote (UK Subs),
'After Dumblane, how can you hold a gun and say your innocent?'

The last time I held a gun I was shooting at little black disks rather than a room full of children, I would argue that compared to Thomas Watt Hamilton I'm somewhat innocent in the whole affair. I don't think similar massacres will be averted by my not having a gun and I think that using the enormity of the events in dunblane to score cynical points in an argument like this is reprehensible.

[Havet]

Seriously though check my sig.

Also if anyones wondering why there are gun laws in the UK , yeah sorry thats our fault.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Sidney_Street

Ah it was you! Thanks for sharing that link in your sig.

[9]

I don't know which thread this was split from, but chiming in, I think guns ought to be legal. Period. Making (or keeping, in the case of the UK) them illegal is just reinforcing the bourgeoisie's monopoly on violence; it means that they are accessible to those with the money to pay for illegal arms being smuggled in from other locations, and inaccessible to the working class. Anyone who thinks the working class can make revolution without arming itself is dreaming.

[AntifaAustralia]

Too much biased material. it isn't an opposing ideologies topic, it is a freaking one party owns all. can you pro-gun maniacs at least think of an anti-gun idea?

I am anti-gun, i dont want the world to turn back into a screwed up ancient primitive state like we have had in the past. And america with its pathetic gun laws is so GREAT! columbine massacre anybody? Virginia tech anybody?

Perhaps every nation should have nuclear arms! Iran? NAZI GERMANY?


Anyone who thinks the working class can make revolution without arming itself is dreaming.

the armies and police can do the revolution work.


i sure dont want to give the gun to the wrong maniacs.
Or perhaps everyone has a gun, and the community/government can enforce harsh penalties.

Think about a gunless society, cops armies and people dont have guns. In britain there are gunless cops. In america all cops are armed!

[Havet]

And america with its pathetic gun laws is so GREAT! columbine massacre anybody? Virginia tech anybody? pure preventable catastrophies

Gun control doesn't reduce crime

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_YTM_eAWnQ

[Pirate Utopian]

the armies and police can do the revolution work.
:confused:

This is a joke right?
Right?

The pigs are on the side of state, if you want them to fight the revolution it'll never ever happen.

[AntifaAustralia]

:confused:

This is a joke right?
Right?

The pigs are on the side of state, if you want them to fight the revolution it'll never ever happen.

The cops can do it, the army too, military coups happen all the time, military and cops are the people as well, they can advocate on the working class' behalf. How about no guns? we will fight for the revolution with our fists!

we need guns to fight? we can use nukes if you want? a mushroom cloud on top of hiroshima anybody?

but strangely i am for north korea's nukes.:lol: who is north korea's advocate against the imperialists? their nukes!


Gun control doesn't reduce crime

Damn, i thought gun control reduced bloody deaths, never knew they were the same shit. crime=death hmmmm. Let's shoot a hungry robber to death! yay! oh no!

[Stranger Than Paradise]

The cops can do it, the army too, military coups happen all the time, military and cops are the people as well, they can advocate on the working class' behalf. How about no guns? we will fight for the revolution with our fists!

No they can't, the working class has to fight on behalf of itself, and they need arms to do it.

And on the original subject. Guns should be legal, we cannot have a state monopoly over the arms. Armed revolution is a neccesity and if we are to succeed in liberating this world our class has to be in possesion of the arms.

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

Too much biased material. it isn't an opposing ideologies topic, it is a freaking one party owns all. can you pro-gun maniacs at least think of an anti-gun idea?

Yes I can and they are shit.


I am anti-gun, i dont want the world to turn back into a screwed up ancient primitive state like we have had in the past. And america with its pathetic gun laws is so GREAT! columbine massacre anybody? Virginia tech anybody?


I have already detailed how easy it is to buy ileagel firearms and I seriously doubt someone bent on shooting up kiddies before shooting himself is going to give a shit about gun laws.



Perhaps every nation should have nuclear arms! Iran? NAZI GERMANY?


Its not as if kim went along to his local smack dealer and after some phone calls got hold of a nuke.



the armies and police can do the revolution work.


No because that is just a coup and normally ends in an even worse condition.



i sure dont want to give the gun to the wrong maniacs.

Unlucky dickcheese because most of them already have them.



Or perhaps everyone has a gun, and the community/government can enforce harsh penalties.

I have no issue with the community shooting some little fuck in the shins who thinks its cool to video himself attacking old people. Of course things could be done better then that but its not exactly something im bothered about.



Think about a gunless society, cops armies and people dont have guns. In britain there are gunless cops. In america all cops are armed!


In britain you get people stare at your ballbag as you pass though the airport, in brtiain you get shot by armed police if your the wrong colour and are running at a tube station , in britain your life is one big fucking reality show due to the fuck knows how many CCTV cameras.



The cops can do it, the army too, military coups happen all the time, military and cops are the people as well, they can advocate on the working class' behalf. How about no guns? we will fight for the revolution with our fists!

Cool go ahead and punch your way to victory. Watch out special branch because AA is going to just bunch any bullets out the way.




we need guns to fight? we can use nukes if you want? a mushroom cloud on top of hiroshima anybody?

Agreed because guns are absoulty ridiculous tools for armed uprisings. however going o about blowing up cities full of working class people with weopens that most of the worlds nation states are unable to obtain is a perfectly reasonable thing to say.



but strangely i am for north korea's nukes.:lol: who is north korea's advocate against the imperialists? their nukes!

I see the rest of your politics are on the same low level of your support for the ability of the state to put a member of the working class and/or a communist militant in jail for five years just because the guy owned a gun




Damn, i thought gun control reduced bloody deaths, never knew they were the same shit. crime=death hmmmm. Let's shoot a hungry robber to death! yay! oh no!

No because it means that normal people who don't want to risk five years don't have a chance against people who have no deterant at all and are more then willing to break the law and to act like wankers to get what they want.

[9]

the armies and police can do the revolution work.


No they can't.
This demonstrates a clear lack of understanding with regard to the class nature of the police and armies - they are an instrument of the ruling class. Proletarian revolution is necessarily carried out by the working class, not the armed goons who make their living using violence on behalf of the bourgeoisie.

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

Look dont be too harsh on AA he's a badman he punches bullets has a few nukes in his attic just incase someone attacks north Korea and can pull an unholy amount of shit from his arse.

[MilitantAnarchist]

How can i be a 'reactionary' just because i dont think we should arm the nation! There is better ways around it man. The state is armed, and you cant fight them like that.

Say you have guns, and you have a group that go to shoot targets and you talk like we are now on this forum... if they trace that, and catch you with guns, there is no question that you will get shot.. and who will the media support? who will the public support? Not you, they gonna say 'yea those nutters with guns deserved to be shot!' Look at how people see the IRA for example... Now, look at how the public (majority of the public anyway) and media saw the G20 protests, they were in OUR favour...
I aint saying violence is COMPLETELY useless, and strangely, i dont even think im really saying guns WILL be completely useless... but there is a time and a place for violence... but legalising guns is the most stupid thing i've ever heard. I dont buy the 'state monopoly on guns' n shit, they will always have the monopoly on arms. I cant see how arming the nation will make it better, i seriously and truly believe that it will be the nail in the coffin for whatever freedom we have left in the UK.

How the fuck is america any better for having guns! They have more extreme right wing groups, they have more coppers killing innocents, more corrupt and extreme conglomerates... America isn't good because of guns. Making guns legal here wont only just give coppers an excuse to shoot on site when threatened, it will be somthing else to tax us on put us under even more surveillance... for a start they would bring ID cards in to police it all easier, you can be sure of that... plus all the other stuff i've said... fucking hell, there are much much better ways, it isnt taking your freedom... and your freedom of what? to wield a gun! If thats your idea of freedom then that is your problem, why dont you just go the whole way and work for EDO and sell bombs to all and sundry... I'm sure all the gun manufacturers wont stop your campaign for guns, i bet they have wet dreams about a bunch of gun nuts wanting to build a collection because it is 'their right to have murder weapons', then i guess we can set up little NRA meetings for the UK and compare our fire power with a bunch of right wing nutters, and make left versions of the C18 films... hell yea, britain needs guns like i need an arsehole on me elbow!

[Pirate Utopian]

The cops can do it, the army too, military coups happen all the time, military and cops are the people as well, they can advocate on the working class' behalf.
And no military coup ever made things much better for the proletariat.


How about no guns? we will fight for the revolution with our fists!
Fuck it, why use fists? Let's use marshmellows instead, if the state comes at us with guns marshmellows will be just as useful as our fists.

[MilitantAnarchist]

and also, i find this:

99% of the time women are weaker then men. You know this.
pretty fucking sexist...


Fuck it, why use fists? Let's use marshmellows instead, if the state comes at us with guns marshmellows will be just as useful as our fists.
Yea fuck it, the state has guns so we should have guns... dont you see! That...makes...us...the...same

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

and also, i find this:

pretty fucking sexist...


Women are weaker then men in most casesI dont like it you dont like it but thats how it is. You know its true and are merely trying to score lefty points which I belived you were above.


Yea fuck it, the state has guns so we should have guns... dont you see! That...makes...us...the...same

Someone facepalm this shit for me.

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

How can i be a 'reactionary' just because i dont think we should arm the nation! There is better ways around it man. The state is armed, and you cant fight them like that.

Yes you can. This aint disney sunshine shoot someone in the face and they wont bother you any more.


Say you have guns, and you have a group that go to shoot targets and you talk like we are now on this forum... if they trace that, and catch you with guns, there is no question that you will get shot..

Yes the streets of america are filled with the dead bodies of lefitsts who went target shooting. :rolleyes::rolleyes:



and who will the media support? who will the public support? Not you, they gonna say 'yea those nutters with guns deserved to be shot!' Look at how people see the IRA for example... Now, look at how the public (majority of the public anyway) and media saw the G20 protests, they were in OUR favour...

The reason people supported G20 was because it had legit protests and hte reason most brits (most catholics in ireland had sympthies for the pira) did not support the IRA was becuase of patrotism and because the bastards planted bombs that often killed random brits. Guns dont come into it.


I aint saying violence is COMPLETELY useless, and strangely, i dont even think im really saying guns WILL be completely useless... but there is a time and a place for violence... but legalising guns is the most stupid thing i've ever heard. I dont buy the 'state monopoly on guns' n shit, they will always have the monopoly on arms. I cant see how arming the nation will make it better, i seriously and truly believe that it will be the nail in the coffin for whatever freedom we have left in the UK.

People like you are the reason the UK is a shithole we have the unfortnatue nanny state issues that came with the welfare state and unfortnatly now that the welfare state has all but disapeared we are left with a country of dimwits and fuckwads who dont think people can be trustedwith guns and that its A ok that they have to tell the state whenever they do the slightest thing.

You know what fuck it I cant be arsed to deal with the rest of your post its idotic the state will fuck you over and the ability to defend yourself isnot something they or reactioanry fucks want you to have. ****s have guns. The working class do not , you have developed the nanny state mentality that the working class are children who cant be trusted with guns and that its the duty of nanny to make sure they dont get any.

Fuck that.

[ls]

How can i be a 'reactionary' just because i dont think we should arm the nation! There is better ways around it man. The state is armed, and you cant fight them like that. .. Now, look at how the public (majority of the public anyway) and media saw the G20 protests, they were in OUR favour...

Agreed, we should protest and beat the police and the army with placards instead, that way people can protest even as they are bleeding out, on the floor. When the army is called out, doing a G20-style protest will certainly go well!



I aint saying violence is COMPLETELY useless, and strangely, i dont even think im really saying guns WILL be completely useless... but there is a time and a place for violence... but legalising guns is the most stupid thing i've ever heard. I dont buy the 'state monopoly on guns' n shit, they will always have the monopoly on arms. I cant see how arming the nation will make it better, i seriously and truly believe that it will be the nail in the coffin for whatever freedom we have left in the UK.

Having a gun gives you less freedom? Nice!


How the fuck is america any better for having guns!

At least you can protect yourself?


They have more extreme right wing groups

In case you hadn't noticed, the US is a bigger landmass than GB. :rolleyes:


for a start they would bring ID cards in to police it all easier

They are bringing in ID cards anyway.


you can be sure of that... plus all the other stuff i've said... fucking hell, there are much much better ways, it isnt taking your freedom... and your freedom of what? to wield a gun! If thats your idea of freedom then that is your problem, why dont you just go the whole way and work for EDO and sell bombs to all and sundry

:laugh: I bet you turned up at 'Smash EDO' and that radicalised! you, do you feel the rush when you oppose pro-gun laws on revleft?

Workers doing anything other than protesting is reactionary I guess.


... I'm sure all the gun manufacturers wont stop your campaign for guns, i bet they have wet dreams about a bunch of gun nuts wanting to build a collection because it is 'their right to have murder weapons', then i guess we can set up little NRA meetings for the UK and compare our fire power with a bunch of right wing nutters, and make left versions of the C18 films... hell yea, britain needs guns like i need an arsehole on me elbow!

You must need an arsehole on your elbow pretty badly then.

[Robert]

can you pro-gun maniacs at least think of an anti-gun idea?Sure, lots of them. Prohibit sales to documented violent criminals. Require
"plugs" in shotgun magazines. Prohibit machine guns and even semi-automatic pistols.

Severely punish any owner who fails to keep his guns out of the reach of children. Limit calibre and power/velocity of commercially sold ammunition. If you need a gun for self defense, and you do, it doesn't need to be able to kill a neighbor a thousand yards away.

I have many friends who own 30.06's. They can drive nails at incredible distances with those things. They should be bolt-actioned and carry no more than 5 or 6 bullets in a clip. Which I think is what most of them are anyway

(We do hunt deer here and should be permitted to continue doing so.)

You Brits hunt deer in the UK, I'm sure. A least in Scotland. How do you get the permit for the rifle?

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

You contact the police who then make sure your not a nutter and then they call in every six months to make sure the rifle is in a safe bolted to a wall. Also the rifles have to be shit.

[9]

and also, i find this:

99% of the time women are weaker then men. You know this.pretty fucking sexist...

There is nothing sexist about this; it is an objective observation (well, I don't know about the percentage, but the general sentiment) about physical capacity. Men and women are "built" differently with regard to physique. As you probably do not know, women are the victims of domestic and sexual abuse in the vast majority of instances. This is, in large part, because the average woman is objectively physically weaker than the average man.



Yea fuck it, the state has guns so we should have guns... dont you see! That...makes...us...the...sameSo if you are going to be consistent, working class control of the means of production ought to be opposed because that would "make us [the workers] the same" as the capitalist class which presently controls the means of production, correct?
The whole point is for the working class to snatch power away from the capitalists. But according to your line of reasoning, this makes the working class "the same" as the capitalists, and so, such measures must be opposed.
I honestly have no idea how someone who takes such a position can style themselves as a "revolutionary" because what it ultimately boils down to is opposition to the idea of workers' revolution/working class control.

[Robert]

Also the rifles have to be shit.

What does that mean?


Now this from http://www.ukgundealer.com/rules.htm:


From 1997, firearm and shotgun certification became more stringent. Among the extra hurdles, people who now apply for Firearms Certificates have to provide two referees, and the police are able to revoke a Firearms Certificate in cases where the holder no longer has a good reason to possess firearms or ammunition.

Damnation, no wonder you guys are revolutionaries. Now I'm ready to sign up!:lol:

[Pirate Utopian]

Yea fuck it, the state has guns so we should have guns... dont you see! That...makes...us...the...same
Revolution is not about doing the opposite of the state, it's about bringing the fucker and it's system down by any means necessary.
Fuck having the moral highground while they maintain the power.

[Jazzratt]

Yea fuck it, the state has guns so we should have guns... dont you see! That...makes...us...the...same

This is painful to read. You should have grown out of this mode of thinking by now.

I feel somewhat superflous now that the others have ripped the shit out of our "arguments" but I feel I should chuck in my own thoughts. Also point out they missed the obvious line that follows this:

like i need an arsehole on me elbow!

...as if you could tell the one from the other.

You call yourself an anarchist which presumably means you trust people enough for them to collectively manage society without state intervention. You trust them enough to demand that we grant them absolute freedoms. You do not, however, trust them to have guns without shooting the fuck out of each other. How do you cope with this level of doublethink? Either people are capable enough to manage themselves without state intervention or they require oversight on everything they do because they are a bunch of social retards with violent streaks.

Another thing I've noticed from your arguments is that you associate all gun owners with raving right-wingers, possibly because the liberal "left" in america has made nannyism, and therefore mass disarmemant, a hobby horse for years. The fact is that over there quite a lot of gun advocates are united not by being a bunch right-wing racist pricks but by a concern for the safety of themselves and those in their community.

Finally as a victim of violence myself I know that I would certainly feel safer when I'm out on my own if I were carrying a gun. Even just a one-shot derringer would do. Also recreational shooting, if you've ever the oppurtunity to try it, is really fucking fun.

[Robert]

The fact is that over there quite a lot of gun advocates are united not by being a bunch right-wing racist pricks but by a concern for the safety of themselves and those in their community.Another one that needs to emigrate. (Come on over JR. You and Hayenmill can practice your English on the plane.)

You have left out -- by naming only conservative racists and upstanding citizens -- a very significant category of U.S. gun owners: gangstas, of every race. I was talking to a woman whose son was in federal trouble for possessing a handgun because he had a felony conviction on his record.

Q. "What was he doing with a gun in the first place?" I asked.

A. "Oh honey, all these young men have guns."

I don't know about "all," but there are stats that show roughly equal percentages of whites and blacks own handguns.

"People of both races are equally likely to own a handgun, with about 30 percent of whites and blacks having them." (Damn, that's a lot of guns.)
http://www.chron.com/content/chronicle/nation/guns/part1/gunside3.html

[MaoTseHelen]

The cops can do it, the army too, military coups happen all the time, military and cops are the people as well, they can advocate on the working class' behalf.

Like in Chile? Name one time the military has couped a democratic government on behalf of the people, and I will concede the point and argue it. As is I'm well read and can't think of a single one.


How about no guns? we will fight for the revolution with our fist!Wikipedia assignment of the day: "Kent State" :sleep: Nonviolence failed, fists failed.

In the United States, there's 303 million people. There's 1m members of active duty military. Add in all the cops and soldiers in the entire country and you'd still never match just the male population, much less both. The US protects gun rights for a good reason, even if the citizens ignore the point rather fervently. You can call the guys at Waco crazies, same with Ruby Ridge, I won't argue with you on it, but they ended up exercising a fundamental right of people everywhere - when the government comes to kill you, you have the right to kill them back. It's that simple.

No one has the ability, or right, to take your life without risking their own. Guns ensure that, because they're the weapon of the day. If this was medieval times, I'd be saying the same thing about bladed weapons.


Sure, lots of them. Prohibit sales to documented violent criminals. Require
"plugs" in shotgun magazines. Prohibit machine guns and even semi-automatic pistols.

Why, exactly? I know police who have assault rifles on them day to day, in their cars. The state can have them for "law and order" but the people aren't trust worthy enough? That's the antithesis of left-wing thought. It's a failure on behalf of the left in America and elsewhere that we let the pro-gun side of things get hijacked by the right.

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

What does that mean?


It means there are strict laws on what type of rifles are legally available.

[AntifaAustralia]

A gun has a capacity to kill, a fist is a thousand or a million times less likely to kill than a gun.

is death that simple and easy for you guys?

Do you really want to go back as couple hundred years to a primitive and lawless state?

Is government that evil for you guys? I guess we as a community should scrap carbon pollution laws, and allow neo-liberal rich cats to get filthy rich.

savage cannibals! Gun lovers are nothing but savage cannibals!

[Conquer or Die]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGmNDie5HvI

British rappers are horrific.

Gun restriction is reactionary, it's in the same level of repression as private property.

As far as America is concerned, gun rights are entitled in the constitution for a standing militia. They were explicitly provided for the rebellion against the Constitution and the United States.

[AntifaAustralia]

As far as America is concerned, gun rights are entitled in the constitution for a standing militia. They were explicitly provided for the rebellion against the Constitution and the United States.

WOW and where is the communist militia? America is filled with anarchists and right wingers. No wonder National Anarchism, Nationalism, KKK, gun ownership and neo-liberalism appeal to some or most of the Americans.

America is such a backwards state.

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

Stop posting please.

[Conquer or Die]

WOW and where is the communist militia? America is filled with anarchists and right wingers. No wonder National Anarchism, Nationalism, KKK, gun ownership and neo-liberalism appeal to some or most of the Americans.

America is such a backwards state.

America has the oldest followed constitution and government in the world. America is also the richest in the world. America is not a backwards state.

At least Americans fought the crown. Cuba, China, Algeria, Ireland, Russia, and Vietnam all fought for liberation as did America. Former Union Jack tyrant countries having the audacity to lecture when their mother country produced the venomous Thatcher is hilarious, to say the least.

[Led Zeppelin]

Gun control doesn't reduce crime

Yeah, and gun ownership doesn't reduce it either, though I would contend the validity of your claim.

This discussion is quite pointless anyway. You have an example of a country where gun ownership is legal, the United States, and you can see the effect that has had on the policies of the United States government; none whatsoever.

Actually class-consciousness in the US is much lower than in countries like France, the UK, Netherlands, Germany etc. and the working-class has much more of an influence on the capitalist states there....despite not being allowed to own guns (except certain types of guns after extensive background checks for recreational purposes).

So it's a myth that legalized gun ownership somehow increases class-consciousness and the militancy of the working-class.

The issue has to be looked at from a nation-to-nation point of view, however. In the US it wouldn't be prudent for revolutionaries to call for gun control; they'd be derided by the working-class if they did such a thing and they would only make themselves look like conservative fools. In the Netherlands it would be imprudent for revolutionaries to call for legalization of gun ownership because the vast majority of the working-class would think they are insane, as they don't see the point.

Obviously I'm not saying that whatever touches the nerves of the working-class, which is as of yet not class-conscious, should not be advocated by revolutionaries. However, the merits of the argument have to be on our side if we do put such an issue forward. For example, when we say that capitalism is an economic system of exploitation, we can prove it quite easily. However, when we say that gun ownership needs to be legalized in the Netherlands because then we can defend ourselves better against the state, we would sound like idiots for the following reasons:

The monopoly on gun ownership is not the be-all end-all of the state's powers. If gun ownership was legalized and all revolutionaries bought guns, would we be any less persecuted by the state? Historical experience shows otherwise; the United States being the best example.

The problem here is revolutionary consciousness. We shouldn't advocate things like gun ownership as an eternal principle which is directly tied to our personal freedom, because it isn't. We should advocate such things after asking; for the interests of which class is it to be used, to what end is it to be used, and to what ends will it be used?

Asking yourself that and coming to the conclusion that in the France, Germany, Japan and Netherlands of today it is going to be used by the proletariat to defend itself against the bourgeois state is absurd. The United States shows us what legalized gun ownership taken as a principle achieves within the confines of a capitalist society mired by bourgeois consciousness; nothing at all.

Then again, situations in which revolutionary consciousness takes the upper hand and is on the rise, that is, in which the revolutionary proletariat takes up arms to use as a specific means to a specific ends, show us that arms are necessary and that they will be taken by whatever means necessary. And of course you have nations like Iran, a dictatorial bourgeois state which maintains its power not solely through bourgeois ideology (faux illusions created by the bourgeois-democratic system), but through violence. It is of course a no-brainer that supporting gun control in such material circumstances is idiotic.

To sum up: advocating full legalization of gun ownership as an eternal principle set in stone without any consideration of the material circumstances in which that demand is put forward, is foolish. On the other hand, being against gun ownership on principle in all circumstances and at all times is just as foolish.

Marxists have to be flexible about such issues, and always ask themselves the key question; which class stands to benefit.

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

Without firearms you get a situation where it is impossible for the working class to defend themselves against people such as gang members as quite simply the police do not care about people on housing estates etc leaving them to the mercy of heroin peddlers and jumped up little shits.

[AntifaAustralia]

...............
Marxists have to be flexible about such issues, and always ask themselves the key question; which class stands to benefit.
Beautiful non biased analysis on arms. A+++

America has the oldest followed constitution and government in the world. America is also the richest in the world. America is not a backwards state.

At least Americans fought the crown. Cuba, China, Algeria, Ireland, Russia, and Vietnam all fought for liberation as did America. Former Union Jack tyrant countries having the audacity to lecture when their mother country produced the venomous Thatcher is hilarious, to say the least.
Wow, makes me want to glorify the americans.

Cuba, China, Algeria, Ireland, Russia, and Vietnam all fought for liberation as did America
and america fought against the the mentioned nations' liberation! are you some pro american guy?

Stop posting please.
Stop posting and let the anarchist federation bald guy who polishes cats on his head to dominate the Revleft forums? Perhaps, i'll consider it, i rarely have time anyway.

[Led Zeppelin]

Without firearms you get a situation where it is impossible for the working class to defend themselves against people such as gang members as quite simply the police do not care about people on housing estates etc leaving them to the mercy of heroin peddlers and jumped up little shits.

Well, fair enough, but don't misunderstand my point.

If I was being harassed by a gang and the police didn't do anything about it, I would get a gun and defend myself as best I saw fit as well; that's simply the rational thing to do in those circumstances.

Those are individual cases though, I was referring to the issue as a totality.

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

Its not though is it its a widespread issue at the moment the ruling class simply does not care about the safety of the working class and just as Communists fought for safety in the workplace Communists should fight so that workers are not unsafe in there homes and streets. You might have gone and got a gun I wouldn't have because it would be five years jail time. Guns do simply make life safer for those who are not willing to risk the jail time and for those who are not able to physically deter people (the weak, women , the elderly etc) as can be shown in various statistics such as the amount of hot break ins (where the occupant is inside) in the UK compared to the US. Its also worth saying when I say gang I dont just mean high level importers or even street dealers im also talking about the little shits who attack old women and put the video on the internet.

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

Wow, makes me want to glorify the americans.


This is not star wars and Americans are not stormtroopers. Most of them are decent people and quite frankly the amount of shit they get from little fuckers who think they are all obese cowboys driving round in show cars is amazing.

[Led Zeppelin]

Its not though is it its a widespread issue at the moment

Really? It's a widespread issue in the UK that gangs harass people and the police doesn't do anything about it?

I doubt it. Regardless, it's not a widespread issue here (in the Netherlands), so that has no bearing on my point, which was specific to circumstances.


and just as Communists fought for safety in the workplace Communists should fight so that workers are not unsafe in there homes and streets.

You want communists to buy guns and guard random homes of workers? Do any communists in the US do this, ever? Do any communists guard homes and streets today without guns, to ensure the safety of workers?

You're picturing something which isn't real or realistic. If gun ownership was legalized in the UK tomorrow there would be no spontaneous rise of a "communist police" defending working people from gangs. That's just absurd.


You might have gone and got a gun I wouldn't have because it would be five years jail time.

The way you presented the issue it seemed like it was a life or death issue. If you think five years in jail is worse than being killed then don't get a gun; I would.


Guns do simply make life safer for those who are not willing to risk the jail time and for those who are not able to physically deter people (the weak, women , the elderly etc) as can be shown in various statistics such as the amount of hot break ins (where the occupant is inside) in the UK compared to the US.

Statistics don't prove that gun ownership lessens crime. For each study you cite I can cite a dozen more. I really don't want to go through that so let me just say this; when the physically weak are allowed to carry guns to defend themselves, others are also allowed to carry guns to attack them. Keep that in mind.


Its also worth saying when I say gang I dont just mean high level importers or even street dealers im also talking about the little shits who attack old women and put the video on the internet.

At the risk of being slightly hyperbolic, I don't think it would be a safer place on the streets when those 'little shits' get to have AK's and Uzi's, regardless of the fact that the people they attack also get to have them.

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

Really? It's a widespread issue in the UK that gangs harass people and the police doesn't do anything about it?

Random assaults are extreamly common and on some estates you don't leave your house/flat at night.


I doubt it. Regardless, it's not a widespread issue here (in the Netherlands), so that has no bearing on my point, which was specific to circumstances.


Well I don't really know about the situation in the netherlands so iltake your word for it.




You want communists to buy guns and guard random homes of workers? Do any communists in the US do this, ever? Do any communists guard homes and streets today without guns, to ensure the safety of workers?


No I want random workers to defend there own homes.


You're picturing something which isn't real or realistic. If gun ownership was legalized in the UK tomorrow there would be no spontaneous rise of a "communist police" defending working people from gangs. That's just absurd.


You miss my point , people are able to defend themselves and even better scumbags know that and have a tedancy to steer clear of those that can, hence why there is less of a culture werei ts aceptable to act like a agressive fucker in the US then the UK. (There was a case recently where a single mother killed herself and her disabled child because a group of scum suckers had being attacking her andher child as well as the home itself over the years).



The way you presented the issue it seemed like it was a life or death issue. If you think five years in jail is worse than being killed then don't get a gun; I would.

In most cases its not life or death but quality of life and there is much quality of life when you have to avoid getting your head kicked in every night.





Statistics don't prove that gun ownership lessens crime. For each study you cite I can cite a dozen more. I really don't want to go through that so let me just say this; when the physically weak are allowed to carry guns to defend themselves, others are also allowed to carry guns to attack them. Keep that in mind.


Sorry but I have previously detailed how easy it is to get hold of an ilegal firearm. People who would be willing to shoot others generally dont care about the five years.



I don't think it would be a safer place on the streets when those 'little shits' get to have AK's and Uzi's.


Alot of them have them anyway.

[scarletghoul]

How the hell are the workers gonna seize and maintain power if they aren't armed? Without a people's army the people have nothing.


At the risk of being slightly hyperbolic, I don't think it would be a safer place on the streets when those 'little shits' get to have AK's and Uzi's, regardless of the fact that the people they attack also get to have them.
Put yourself in the position of the little shit. Who would you rather attack, an unarmed old lady or an old lady with a gun?

[Led Zeppelin]

Random assaults are extreamly common and on some estates you don't leave your house/flat at night.

No I want random workers to defend there own homes.

You miss my point , people are able to defend themselves and even better scumbags know that and have a tedancy to steer clear of those that can, hence why there is less of a culture werei ts aceptable to act like a agressive fucker in the US then the UK. (There was a case recently where a single mother killed herself and her disabled child because a group of scum suckers had being attacking her andher child as well as the home itself over the years).

Again I have to point to the example of the US, where gun ownership is legalized in many states and where the amount of violent deaths is as high as the violent deaths of Japan, Canada, Germany, France, Netherlands, Belgium and the UK combined, so it can't be blamed on population size or geography.

Now, I really don't want to get into a statistics war because they don't have a conclusion - we tend to believe the studies and statistics that support our own claims - but I simply don't believe based on the case-study of the US that crime would be lessened in any significant way if gun ownership was allowed everywhere starting tomorrow.


In most cases its not life or death but quality of life and there is much quality of life when you have to avoid getting your head kicked in every night.

To be honest I prefer getting my head kicked in to getting it blown off by some trigger-happy asshole. To also use an individual case: recently in some bar in Ohio two people got into a fight and everyone suddenly pulled their gun and started shooting: Link to video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nUkZejZigU). I would have preferred, as a non-interested party in the fight, that they used their fists or even knifes rather than guns, because in the latter case there's a high chance of me being killed.

Having said that, if it is the case in some parts of the UK that you can't go out at night because there's a high chance of getting shot, that would justify you being armed yourself, naturally.


Alot of them have them anyway.

Personally I think the solution to getting rid of such societal problems is to change the economic system. I don't think that buying guns will solve a problem which is rooted in the intricacies of the economic system.


Put yourself in the position of the little shit. Who would you rather attack, an unarmed old lady or an old lady with a gun?

To be honest, if I really put myself in the position of such a person, I really couldn't care less if the old lady who I want to kill with my AK is armed or not, because I know that if I hit her once she'd be incapacitated anyway.

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

Again I have to point to the example of the US, where gun ownership is legalized in many states and where the amount of violent deaths is as high as the violent deaths of Japan, Canada, Germany, France, Netherlands, Belgium and the UK combined, so it can't be blamed on population size or geography.

It can be blamed on the area and the poverty rating obviously but gun legislation gives those who dont wish to commit crimes a fighting chance. Look at switzland , despite most households having a firearm in them (all young men must keep an assult rifle and others are very easy to obtain). There are very few gun crimes compared to that of the UK. (The uk is about a 50th of the size if the US and murderes are classified differntly)



Now, I really don't want to get into a statistics war because they don't have a conclusion - we tend to believe the studies and statistics that support our own claims - but I simply don't believe based on the case-study of the US that crime would be lessened in any significant way if gun ownership was allowed everywhere starting tomorrow.


I disagree.




To be honest I prefer getting my head kicked in to getting it blown off by some trigger-happy asshole. To also use an individual case: recently in some bar in Ohio two people got into a fight and everyone suddenly pulled their gun and started shooting: Link to video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nUkZejZigU). I would have preferred, as a non-interested party in the fight, that they used their fists or even knifes rather than guns, because in the latter case there's a high chance of me being killed.

Thats an argument against mixing guns and booze rather then mixing guns and the proletariat.




Having said that, if it is the case in some parts of the UK that you can't go out at night because there's a high chance of getting shot, that would justify you being armed yourself, naturally.


I think you mis the point. There are the types of people who are not willing to risk the jail time for shooting someone but are willing to beat people up they wouldnt shoot people even if they had guns coming out of there ears yet those who would toat guns for disgusting purposes already do so.



Personally I think the solution to getting rid of such societal problems is to change the economic system. I don't think that buying guns will solve a problem which is rooted in the intricacies of the economic system.


Yes but tragicly I can't pull out collectivism when some little fuckwad is waving a replica conversion about.




To be honest, if I really put myself in the position of such a person, I really couldn't care less if the old lady who I want to kill with my AK is armed or not, because I know that if I hit her once she'd be incapacitated anyway.


See my previous points on the people who kick peoples heads for a laugh in being different to those who shoot people for "slipping".

[Led Zeppelin]

It can be blamed on the area and the poverty rating obviously but gun legislation gives those who dont wish to commit crimes a fighting chance.

Well, as I said in my first post, if the circumstances dictate it then I don't oppose it. I also said that it would be foolishly imprudent to call for a ban on gun ownership in the US.


Look at switzland , despite most households having a firearm in them (all young men must keep an assult rifle and others are very easy to obtain). There are very few gun crimes compared to that of the UK. (The uk is about a 50th of the size if the US and murderes are classified differntly)

The total firearm related deaths in Switzerland is 91 times that of Japan...as I said though, I really don't want to get into a statistics wars on this. Been through those many times in the past and they never amounted to anything. :p


I disagree.

Well, yeah, I know, and I don't think we can resolve our disagreement on this so I guess we just have to agree to disagree. :)

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

Well, as I said in my first post, if the circumstances dictate it then I don't oppose it. I also said that it would be foolishly imprudent to call for a ban on gun ownership in the US.

Yeah but thats populism more then any view on workers arment.




The total firearm related deaths in Switzerland is 91 times that of Japan...as I said though, I really don't want to get into a statistics wars on this. Been through those many times in the past and they never amounted to anything. :p

Deaths not murders. Switzland being a very harsh country to live unless your wealthy results in large amounts of people sadly killing themselves and since its macho to shoot yourself in the head with an assult rifle that seems to be the way alot of people go (as opposed to hanging themselves)





Well, yeah, I know, and I don't think we can resolve our disagreement on this so I guess we just have to agree to disagree. :)


:) Alright Cool. I enjoyed Debating with you.

[Led Zeppelin]

Just one more retort :p :


Yeah but thats populism more then any view on workers arment.

I replied to this charge in my first post in this manner:


Obviously I'm not saying that whatever touches the nerves of the working-class, which is as of yet not class-conscious, should not be advocated by revolutionaries. However, the merits of the argument have to be on our side if we do put such an issue forward.

The merits of this specific argument are determined by the specific circumstances. For example, the crime argument may make sense when applied to some areas in the UK today, but it falls flat in the Netherlands or Japan of today.


:) Alright Cool. I enjoyed Debating with you.

I enjoyed debating with you while listening to The Smith's songs as well. :D

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

Of course but thats an argument weather something should be pushed by an organization which is obviously geographically specific.

[Robert]

Americans are not stormtroopers. Most of them are decent people and quite frankly the amount of shit they get from little fuckers who think they are all obese cowboys driving round in show cars is amazing.

Joe for President!

Actually, the claim that we are obese is fair and accurate. Not me of course.
But about 28-30% are clinically obese. And we are demanding "health care." (Here's a tip, America: get out of the fridge and onto the track.)

I still remember this story from the 1980's: Burglars avoid houses where someone is home because they are most afraid of getting shot. Can I get a "duh!"?

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1356&dat=19831210&id=sJoTAAAAIBAJ&sjid=YQYEAAAAIBAJ&pg=5603,5572954

[Demogorgon]

Always nice to see tired old right wing talking points dragged out here, as if they are progressive. The absurdity of saying guns make us safer as individuals is both shown by wider statistics showing wide gun ownership does not make people safer collectively-that is higher violent crime-but also that it is indisputable that carrying weapons makes an individual considerably less safe. After all, in the last year or so, much has been made in the UK about how those carrying knives are at far greater risk of being stabbed or otherwise accosted than those without them, the same is true for guns.

And for all the stuff about how old ladies will be safer with guns (as if many would carry them anyway), are old ladies in America safer than in the UK? Really?

And at any rate, I am not massively keen on turning the blight of knife crime into one of gun crime.

We also have the romantic "arming the working class argument". The problem there of course is that first of all it is rather silly to say that guns will enable the working class to rise up in the first place. I don't see much sign of it in America for instance. Also of course you can't expect to out shoot the state in a straight fight anyway, if you think you are going to achieve revolution by the workers "manning the barricades" and so forth, think again. That is only a recipe for defeat and death. Revolution has to come by other means. The power of the working class comes from the necessity of workers for an economy to function not from an imagined ability to outshoot a professional army. Let's live in the real world. Also on a more real world note, if you were to legalise guns in the UK for instance, the police would simply start carrying them too. Not exactly a step forward.

The long term goal of revolutionaries is not the waste of further resources on weapons or the escalation of a doomed arms race with the state, but rather the end of the manufacture of weapons designed to be used against humans and the destruction of those already in existence.

In the event of a revolution, obviously the whole world won't simply turn into a nice place overnight and the need for defence will remain and so trained volunteers will have to act as a militia armed with appropriate weaponry in case remaining capitalist states think it would be a good idea to invade, but that is the exception to the rule, the manufacture of use of weapons for other purposes (excluding things like hunting and pest control obviously) should already cease then. Actually they should cease now too, but it is hard to achieve that.

Let's leave the political campaigns of the far right to the far right.

[Demogorgon]

e and onto the track.)

I still remember this story from the 1980's: Burglars avoid houses where someone is home because they are most afraid of getting shot. Can I get a "duh!"?

Burglars avoid houses where somebody is home anywhere regardless of weapons. It is a lot easier to burgle an empty house after all.

[Robert]

Ask a burglar about that, Demo. An American burglar, I mean. I realize the risk of a British burglar getting shot has declined precipitously since you guys turned in all your guns to the cops.

Do you buy the following?

This is not to denigrate our UK neighbors, but rather to encourage our American citizens to assess by fact and not by fad. The trail blazing UK held the distinction of having the toughest firearm restrictions of any democracy and their 1997 handgun ban became the "gold standard" of gun control.

How has that UK gun ban been working?


In the four years from 1997 to 2001, the rate of violent crime more than doubled.
Your chances of being mugged in London are now six times greater than in New York.
England's rates of assault, robbery, and burglary are far higher than America's.
53 percent of English burglaries occur while occupants are at home, compared with 13 percent in the U.S., where burglars admit to fearing armed homeowners more than the police.

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/1950860/the_uk_gun_ban.html?cat=17

I am trying to imagine where the laughter would be loudest in the USA (NRA meetings in Kentucky, nightclubs in Harlem, or the penitentiaries in 'Bama?) should the federal government order us to just "turn in" our guns as they apparently did in the UK.

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

ir and accurate. Not me of course.
But about 28-30% are clinically obese. And we are demanding "health care." (Here's a tip, America: get out of the fridge and onto the track.)


I dont think thats fair before I went to America I expected to be thrown into a country with the most obnocious fat bastards ever like the yanks I had seen in Europe however I found large amounts of kind friendly and not that fat apart from the people at the breakfast bar.

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

Ask a burglar about that, Demo. An American burglar, I mean. I realize the risk of a British burglar getting shot has declined precipitously since you guys turned in all your guns to the cops.

Do you buy the following?

This is not to denigrate our UK neighbors, but rather to encourage our American citizens to assess by fact and not by fad. The trail blazing UK held the distinction of having the toughest firearm restrictions of any democracy and their 1997 handgun ban became the "gold standard" of gun control.

How has that UK gun ban been working?


In the four years from 1997 to 2001, the rate of violent crime more than doubled.
Your chances of being mugged in London are now six times greater than in New York.
England's rates of assault, robbery, and burglary are far higher than America's.
53 percent of English burglaries occur while occupants are at home, compared with 13 percent in the U.S., where burglars admit to fearing armed homeowners more than the police.

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/1950860/the_uk_gun_ban.html?cat=17

I am trying to imagine where the laughter would be loudest in the USA (NRA meetings in Kentucky, nightclubs in Harlem, or the penitentiaries in 'Bama?) should the federal government order us to just "turn in" our guns as they apparently did in the UK.

The following users thank Robert for this helpful post: Comrade Joe.

[The Broke Cycle]

It's very simple.

If you want a classless society, you cannot go ahead and create two classes of people: those allowed to carry weapons and those not. I mean we fret about handing over the means of production, but we'll hand over the means of war?

Come on.

[MaoTseHelen]

It's very simple.

If you want a classless society, you cannot go ahead and create two classes of people: those allowed to carry weapons and those not. I mean we fret about handing over the means of production, but we'll hand over the means of war?

Come on.
One of the most concise, to the point, and smart posts in this thread. Kudos brother, that's the tree I was trying to bark up.

[Robert]

One of the most concise, to the point, and smart posts in this thread.

Indeed. Kickin' some serious ass there, Broke Cycle.

[bcbm]

Also of course you can't expect to out shoot the state in a straight fight anyway, if you think you are going to achieve revolution by the workers "manning the barricades" and so forth, think again. That is only a recipe for defeat and death. Revolution has to come by other means. The power of the working class comes from the necessity of workers for an economy to function not from an imagined ability to outshoot a professional army. Let's live in the real world.

advocating that communists own and understand how to use arms is not a matter of believing that it will come down to a shoot-out between us and the pigs. indeed, as communists we should do everything in our power to make sure there is no need to use our weapons. but if you want to talk about defeat and death and living in the real world, then let's: we are opposed to the most powerful institutions on the planet that have massive stockpiles of arms and a strong desire to hold on to their power, whatever the costs. even if we oppose them through purely nonviolent means, they will not hesitate to shoot us if they feel threatened. so we should know how to fight if we have to.

[Bud Struggle]

advocating that communists own and understand how to use arms is not a matter of believing that it will come down to a shoot-out between us and the pigs. indeed, as communists we should do everything in our power to make sure there is no need to use our weapons. but if you want to talk about defeat and death and living in the real world, then let's: we are opposed to the most powerful institutions on the planet that have massive stockpiles of arms and a strong desire to hold on to their power, whatever the costs. even if we oppose them through purely nonviolent means, they will not hesitate to shoot us if they feel threatened. so we should know how to fight if we have to.

Indeed. If it comes to a shoot out with Capitalism, Communism will loose--and loose big and not only on the political and economic front. The real Revolution will be through quality of ideas not force of arms because if the ideas and ideals of Communism can't hold sway in the public arena then no show of gunpower will ever bring Communism to lasting fruition.

[Red Icepick]

Indeed. If it comes to a shoot out with Capitalism, Communism will loose--and loose big and not only on the political and economic front. The real Revolution will be through quality of ideas not force of arms because if the ideas and ideals of Communism can't hold sway in the public arena then no show of gunpower will ever bring Communism to lasting fruition.

That doesn't mean that crapitalism won't have a violent death rattle. Seriously, everyone needs to get guns and shut the fuck up. Anyone telling you not to buy tons of weapons is a federal agent who knows that they might get fucked up in the future if working class people start arming and educating themselves.

[Demogorgon]

Ask a burglar about that, Demo. An American burglar, I mean. I realize the risk of a British burglar getting shot has declined precipitously since you guys turned in all your guns to the cops.

Do you buy the following?

This is not to denigrate our UK neighbors, but rather to encourage our American citizens to assess by fact and not by fad. The trail blazing UK held the distinction of having the toughest firearm restrictions of any democracy and their 1997 handgun ban became the "gold standard" of gun control.

How has that UK gun ban been working?


In the four years from 1997 to 2001, the rate of violent crime more than doubled.
Your chances of being mugged in London are now six times greater than in New York.
England's rates of assault, robbery, and burglary are far higher than America's.
53 percent of English burglaries occur while occupants are at home, compared with 13 percent in the U.S., where burglars admit to fearing armed homeowners more than the police.

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/1950860/the_uk_gun_ban.html?cat=17

I am trying to imagine where the laughter would be loudest in the USA (NRA meetings in Kentucky, nightclubs in Harlem, or the penitentiaries in 'Bama?) should the federal government order us to just "turn in" our guns as they apparently did in the UK.

Well I don't accept those figures anyway, because most figures show violent crime holding steady for a number of years, but there is another problem. Even if those figures are true, it can't be put down to the handgun ban because even before it, Britain had exceptionally strict gun regulation, and very little gun ownership. It isn't like the public was disarmed, we were never armed in the first place. So if there was such an increase in violent crime (and I don't see the evidence of it), it cannot be attributed to gun legislation.

I think though the most compelling figures are those when you compare European countries. Or to put it another way, compare Finland and Switzerland with the rest of Europe. They both have noticeably higher violent crime. It is especially marked in Switzerland which has a social makeup conducive to low crime (reasonably low poverty rate and good social services) and indeed generally does have a low crime rate, but when it comes to violent crime, is considerably higher than its neighbours.

[MilitantAnarchist]

Just a few points from before... I didnt only say 'thats sexist' for 'leftist' points, because that isnt really me... if wanted to 'score points' i'd just keep my mouth shut lol... I said it because i hang out with a lot of feminists, and they would find that somebody saying 'women are physically weaker then men' insulting and just a generalisation. Although it maybe true in many occasions, a generalisation can lead to stereotyping, and that can lead to discrimination... Saying 'men are stronger then women' can easily become 'women should stay at home and keep the house clean' and 'shouldn't be a part of the army or police because they are physically not good enough'....

And actually i didnt go to the 'smash EDO' mayday bash... nor do i just oppose guns for some self satisfaction... I dont think that the people 'cant be trusted' but as everyone is pointing out people need them for self defence reasons agains 'yobs and robbers' but if people are going to attack you for no reason without guns, then they are gonna attack your for no reason with guns.... If there is mindless violence in our society, how is giving everyone a gun make it any better?

Bombs, guns.. there is no difference. Not that i see, they are both mass manufactured for mass murder.

Also, yea i have fired guns before, on numerous occasions. So i know that sense of power you feel with a gun in your hand. I've also been on the other side of a gun... Both are fucking dangerous and scary...

I see your point ok... I really do, the state will never disarm but they expect us to, and it does piss me off when i look at it like that, i have never been a pacifist hippy type that thinks guns are evil... But i really really truly believe that arming the people wont help a thing... The state uses guns and violence and force to keep us all in check, if we are gonna fight that we have to be smart and use other forms of force... The social issues (like the example of the mother and disabled daughter being bullied by fuckwits) should be dealt with by the communities, but not with guns, guns are so final, fucking hell imagine if your out on the piss one night and you stumble into someone by accident, maybe an old man. Maybe earlier that night he got hassled by fuckwits and got scared, now he's gone back to get his gun, and he's scared, and your making no sense... imagine you do something stupid like fuck someone elses girlfriend, what if you dont even no this girl has a boyfriend, instead of maybe just getting a black eye your gonna get killed! These are just examples that mean nothing, i do know this... i'm just thinking about every day lives being effected by guns... All i want is love, anarchy and freedom... Your right, if the thugs have guns it even's the playing fields with us having guns, but i dont want guns, i dont want to live a life where i have to carry a gun... Who really wants to live in the wild west?

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

Sorry but switzland has a ridiculously low violent crime rate.

[Demogorgon]

advocating that communists own and understand how to use arms is not a matter of believing that it will come down to a shoot-out between us and the pigs. indeed, as communists we should do everything in our power to make sure there is no need to use our weapons. but if you want to talk about defeat and death and living in the real world, then let's: we are opposed to the most powerful institutions on the planet that have massive stockpiles of arms and a strong desire to hold on to their power, whatever the costs. even if we oppose them through purely nonviolent means, they will not hesitate to shoot us if they feel threatened. so we should know how to fight if we have to.
Revolution in the twenty first century cannot possibly be based on shoot outs, but rather strangling the economic power of those in charge. It isn't terribly romantic, but it isn't the nineteen thirties. If it were to come to the point of them shooting at us, then our best hope is actually that soldiers often refuse to shoot unarmed civilians, particularly when they themselves know they have a legitimate cause, not an absurd notion that you can win a firefight with them.

If you want to actually fight an army, you need high tech weaponry and sophisticated training, are we all going to get that before we bother asserting ourselves?

As a general point though, if we want to have political relevancy, we need to start sounding like a reasonable political movement and not a backwoods militia group.

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

Just a few points from before... I didnt only say 'thats sexist' for 'leftist' points, because that isnt really me... if wanted to 'score points' i'd just keep my mouth shut lol... I said it because i hang out with a lot of feminists, and they would find that somebody saying 'women are physically weaker then men' insulting and just a generalisation. Although it maybe true in many occasions, a generalisation can lead to stereotyping, and that can lead to discrimination... Saying 'men are stronger then women' can easily become 'women should stay at home and keep the house clean' and 'shouldn't be a part of the army or police because they are physically not good enough'....

And actually i didnt go to the 'smash EDO' mayday bash... nor do i just oppose guns for some self satisfaction... I dont think that the people 'cant be trusted' but as everyone is pointing out people need them for self defence reasons agains 'yobs and robbers' but if people are going to attack you for no reason without guns, then they are gonna attack your for no reason with guns.... If there is mindless violence in our society, how is giving everyone a gun make it any better?

Bombs, guns.. there is no difference. Not that i see, they are both mass manufactured for mass murder.

Also, yea i have fired guns before, on numerous occasions. So i know that sense of power you feel with a gun in your hand. I've also been on the other side of a gun... Both are fucking dangerous and scary...

I see your point ok... I really do, the state will never disarm but they expect us to, and it does piss me off when i look at it like that, i have never been a pacifist hippy type that thinks guns are evil... But i really really truly believe that arming the people wont help a thing... The state uses guns and violence and force to keep us all in check, if we are gonna fight that we have to be smart and use other forms of force... The social issues (like the example of the mother and disabled daughter being bullied by fuckwits) should be dealt with by the communities, but not with guns, guns are so final, fucking hell imagine if your out on the piss one night and you stumble into someone by accident, maybe an old man. Maybe earlier that night he got hassled by fuckwits and got scared, now he's gone back to get his gun, and he's scared, and your making no sense... imagine you do something stupid like fuck someone elses girlfriend, what if you dont even no this girl has a boyfriend, instead of maybe just getting a black eye your gonna get killed! These are just examples that mean nothing, i do know this... i'm just thinking about every day lives being effected by guns... All i want is love, anarchy and freedom... Your right, if the thugs have guns it even's the playing fields with us having guns, but i dont want guns, i dont want to live a life where i have to carry a gun... Who really wants to live in the wild west?

http://images2.layoutsparks.com/1/144662/care-bear-easter-rainbow.jpg

[Demogorgon]

Sorry but switzland has a ridiculously low violent crime rate.
Compared to the United States, not to other European countries. Notice when you look at violent crime rate tables, it either looks about the same as Germany, Austria, etc or somewhat higher, and that is not even taking into account that Switzerland usually defines violent crime much more narrowly than those countries.

Not everything you read on right wing gun nut websites is true.

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

Switzerland is rather rough to live in if your poor (hence the high level of suicides) so I still think they have a very low crime rate.

[Demogorgon]

Switzerland is rather rough to live in if your poor (hence the high level of suicides) so I still think they have a very low crime rate.
You think they have a low crime rate because it is rough to live in if you are poor?

[MilitantAnarchist]

http://images2.layoutsparks.com/1/144662/care-bear-easter-rainbow.jpg

So we all arm ourselves and everytime we step out the door we prepare for war? fuck that, i wanna be free!
if your scared to leave your house at night now, its gonna be much worse when those 'yobs' have pistols... but of course we'll have guns to, much safer then aint it... For YOU it might be better, or fun, or whatever... but if i disagree and others do to, how is that fair for us?

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

You think they have a low crime rate because it is rough to live in if you are poor?

Well yes theres a reason why poorer areas have higher crime rates.

(I apologise for the hordensly short posts I am getting my ego in a twist wanting to have the last say on everything I promise not to post again here until tommrow where I will do so appropriately)

[Demogorgon]

Well yes theres a reason why poorer areas have higher crime rates.

(I apologise for the hordensly short posts I am getting my ego in a twist wanting to have the last say on everything I promise not to post again here until tommrow where I will do so appropriately)
Well the thing is, Switzerland isn't like that. Like I say, it has all the factors in favour for a low crime rate, its poverty rate is fairly low after all, it has reasonable social services and one of the most enlightened drug policies in the world and sure enough it does have a low general crime rate. Yet the violent crime rate is well out of proportion, why do you think that is?

[bcbm]

Revolution in the twenty first century cannot possibly be based on shoot outs, but rather strangling the economic power of those in charge. It isn't terribly romantic, but it isn't the nineteen thirties.which is presumably why i said "advocating that communists own and understand how to use arms is not a matter of believing that it will come down to a shoot-out between us and the pigs." probably also why i said "we should do everything in our power to make sure there is no need to use our weapons."


If it were to come to the point of them shooting at us, then our best hope is actually that soldiers often refuse to shoot unarmed civilians, particularly when they themselves know they have a legitimate causei don't see much hope in the idea that we can count on the people who have had no problem destroying entire countries to see the error of their ways suddenly when faced with a domestic threat. an entirely peaceful break from the old society is impossible.


not an absurd notion that you can win a firefight with them.

If you want to actually fight an army, you need high tech weaponry and sophisticated training, are we all going to get that before we bother asserting ourselves? i don't think most of the resistance fighters in iraq or afghanistan have anywhere near the equipment or training of the coalition forces. they're still winning. and, of course, you still seem to be missing the point i am making: this isn't about taking on the army in shoot-outs. it has nothing to do with engaging in a military campaign or building a proletarian army or anything of that sort. we should have guns primarily as a deterrent; a show of counter-power to the state. beyond that, they exist only for self-defense. i think the invisible committee makes the point well:

"An insurrection is more about taking up arms and maintaining an “armed presence” than it is about armed struggle. We need to distinguish clearly between being armed and the use of arms. Weapons are a constant in revolutionary situations, but their use is infrequent and rarely decisive at key turning points: August 10th 1792, March 18th 1871, October 1917. When power is in the gutter, it’s enough to walk over it."


As a general point though, if we want to have political relevancy, we need to start sounding like a reasonable political movement and not a backwoods militia group.i don't see how proposing that we have the means to defend what we take whenever we have the capability to start taking it makes one sound like a "backwoods militia group." arms and their use are almost completely ignored in most leftist discourse. groups of comrades who are arming themselves don't make it a central political point. the struggle is still in the workplace, in the street and in the home, not the shooting range.

[AntifaAustralia]

If you want a classless society, you cannot go ahead and create two classes of people: those allowed to carry weapons and those not............


and the people carrying weapons are not people? and you the anarchist/communist cannot become one of them people? dont associate cops as a pointless class, they are the people of a communist class. we are having a Cop debate in the opposing forums area, very revlevant and linked in many ways.


......If you want to actually fight an army, you need high tech weaponry and sophisticated training, are we all going to get that before we bother asserting ourselves? .......

Weaponry is suicide, surely more money/labour/resources could be spent on Food, or housing, or peace.

Comrade joe mentioned the use of nuclear weapons as just, are you serious? they are the ultimate anti-life weapons on earth.


"we should do everything in our power to make sure there is no need to use our weapons."

True, through weaponry means? or ideological means? democratic government means? i am not a savage, so i prefer no weapons.


To the gun lovers, do you ever vision a time of eternal peace after your revolution? in some nations there is progress to eternal peace. Do you see the world as a continous fucked state for us all like a nihilist?

Not all revolutions are bloody. The revolution of anti-authoritarian communism in Czech
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velvet_Revolution

The communists were human and democratic enough to allow their wishes.

[bcbm]

True, through weaponry means? or ideological means? democratic government means? i am not a savage, so i prefer no weapons.

how would it be possible to make the use of weapons unnecessary through the use of weapons? i think that we need to build ourselves up to the point that we can assert control by halting the economy and occupying what is ours. at this point hopefully the capitalists would capitulate, but we should be prepared for other scenarios.


To the gun lovers, do you ever vision a time of eternal peace after your revolution? in some nations there is progress to eternal peace. Do you see the world as a continous fucked state for us all like a nihilist?first, i don't think we can talk about revolution as a single moment but as a process, especially when we're talking about radically transforming all aspects of society. second, i think what sort of violence we see afterwards depends on a number of factors. presumably there will be counter-revolutionaries from within and without and conflict may be inevitable.

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

Yet the violent crime rate is well out of proportion, why do you think that is?

First of I have never being to switzland so theres a good chance this is bullshit. Also I have heard from switz people that the culture regarding wealth is as harsh as the US one. However if young males do have violent tedandcys it may be because of the military service all men must go though henceforth installing kind of militarized culture.

[Demogorgon]

First of I have never being to switzland so theres a good chance this is bullshit. Also I have heard from switz people that the culture regarding wealth is as harsh as the US one. However if young males do have violent tedandcys it may be because of the military service all men must go though henceforth installing kind of militarized culture.
Switzerland has been reforming its army since the eighties and these days only about a third of men go through compulsory military service, which is the same as, or lower than most other countries in Western Europe. It is hardly remarkable in that regard other than the fact people go through bursts of training for a couple of weeks a year rather than in a lump at the start.

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

Proof?

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

Btw I would like to point out that five months boot camp is not really a couple of weeks

[Demogorgon]

Proof of what? That the army is declining? There have been a series of reforms and referendums over the years reducing the army. Around 48,000 men become eligible for conscription and of those 20,000 will enter boot camp (a large number not completing it). The rest are declared unfit for service (either properly unfit or the weird Swiss sort of unfit system where you are judged to still being able to do it really, but pay an extra tax to avoid it) or do civilian service generally involving socially useful or humanitarian work.

That means there is less call up than in many other Western European countries. Remember as well that compulsory military service is still fairly standard on the continent. There was a wave of abolition in the nineties and into this decade and a few more will phase it out soon but Germany, Austria, Greece, Finland and the Scandinavian countries all maintain it still (though I understand Sweden will abolish it next year).

The difference in Switzerland as I say is that it is a militia rather than a standing army, with a few weeks call up each year for a period of many years.

Anyway, we drift from the point, there is no evidence that I know of that conscription makes a great deal of difference to crime rates anyway.

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

You still have a culture though heavily influenced by the millitery where its seen as desirable to get in and heneforth your going to get a more macho culture then elsewhere.

[ellipsis]

AHHHHHHHHHHHHH.

Sorry I have just been involved in to many conversation in real life, including commies on this subject and on this forum and in my experience it never gets us anywhere and usually just raise my blood pressure. So I can't get involved in this thread, especially now that is 5 pages deep.

I have my guns and that's good enough for me.

"funny" story: I was chilling at the bourgeois institution that is Dartmouth College, enjoying some muggles with some students when I got into a conversation with a self identified communist from NYC. We got into a heated conversation with him about gun ownership, partially relating to communism. After maybe an hour of this, our mutual friend interrupts us and says "sorry to bother you, but I just wanted to let you know that you guys have thoroughly alienated yourselves from the group." to which I responded "whatever, we are already so alienated from each other (and ourselves)."

[Havet]

If anyone is interested in information about Gun politics in Switzerland:

The personal weapon of militia personnel is kept at home as part of the military obligations. This, in addition to liberal gun laws and strong shooting traditions, has led to a very high gun count per capita. Switzerland has one of the highest gun ownership rates in the world. In recent times political opposition has expressed a desire for tighter gun regulations.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Switzerland#cite_note-SPIEGEL_ONLINE-0)

According to chapter 2 article 10 of Swiss law, people over the age of 18 do not need a permit to purchase a rifle for use in hunting, off-duty shooting and sport-shooting events.[10] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Switzerland#cite_note-Swiss-law-German-9)

The total number of firearms in private homes is estimated minimally at 1.2 million to 3 million.[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Switzerland#cite_note-7)

Police statistics for the year 2006[13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Switzerland#cite_note-12) records 34 killings or attempted killings involving firearms, compared to 69 cases involving bladed weapons and 16 cases of unarmed assault. Cases of assault resulting in bodily harm numbered 89 (firearms) and 526 (bladed weapons). This represents a decline of aggravated assaults involving firearms since the early 1990s. Some 300 deaths per year are due to legally held army ordinance weapons, the large majority of these being suicides. The majority of gun crimes involving domestic violence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_violence) are perpetrated with army ordnance weapons, while the majority of gun crime outside the domestic sphere involves illegally held firearms.[14] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Switzerland#cite_note-13)

---

Recently, however, politicians have been able to restrict gun trade and gun ownership.

Conditions under the 1999 Gun Act



To purchase a firearm in a commercial shop, one needs to have a Waffenerwerbsschein (weapon acquisition permit). A permit allows the purchase of three firearms. Everyone over the age of 18 who is not psychiatrically disabled (such as having had a history of endangering his own life or the lives of others) or identified as posing security problems, and who has a clean criminal record (requires a Criminal Records Bureau check) can request such a permit.



To buy a gun from an individual, no permit is needed, but the seller is expected to establish a reasonable certainty that the purchaser will fulfill the above-mentioned conditions (usually done through a Criminal Records Bureau check). The participants in such a transaction are required to prepare a written contract detailing the identities of both vendor and purchaser, the weapon's type, manufacturer, and serial number. The law requires the written contract to be kept for ten years by the buyer and seller. The seller is also required to see some official ID from the purchaser, for such sales are only allowed to Swiss nationals and foreigners with a valid residence permit, with the exception of those foreigners that come from certain countries (Croatia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatia), Bosnia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnia_and_Herzegovina), Macedonia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Macedonia), Turkey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkey), Sri Lanka (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sri_Lanka), Albania (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albania), Algeria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algeria)), to whom such sales are not allowed even if they do have a residence permit. Foreigners without a residence permit or from countries on the ban list must ask for a special permit.



After turning 18, any individual can buy singleshot or semiautomatic long arms (breech-loading (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breech-loading_weapon) or muzzle-loading (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muzzleloader)) without a permit (so-called "free arms"). Likewise, members of a recognized rifle association do not need a buying permit for purchasing antique repeaters (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearm#Repeating.2C_semiautomatic.2C_and_automati c_firearms), and hunters do not need one for buying typical hunting rifles.



Basically, the sale of automatic firearms (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_firearm), selective fire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_fire) weapons and certain accessoires such as sound suppressors ("silencers") (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suppressor) is forbidden (as is the sale of certain disabled automatic firearms which have been identified as easily restored to fully automatic capability). The purchase of such items is however legal with a special permit issued by cantonal police. The issuance of such a permit requires additional requirements to be met, e.g. the possession of a specific gun locker.



Most types of ammunition are available for commercial sale, including full metal jacket bullet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Full_metal_jacket_bullet) calibres for military-issue weapons; hollow point rounds (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hollow_point_bullet) are only permitted for hunters. Ammunition sales are registered only at the point of sale by recording the buyer's name in a bound book.

Changes due to the Schengen treaty (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_treaty)

The rules laid out above were changed on 1 December 2008 as Switzerland joined the Schengen treaty (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_treaty); and all member countries must adapt some of their laws to a common standard. Following the draft of the Swiss government for the new Waffengesetz (weapons law), these points will change:


Unlawful possession of guns will be punished.



Gun trade among individuals will require a valid weapon acquisition permit: this is, from a Swiss point of view, a radical restriction that is assumed will undercut private gun trade dramatically.



Every gun must be marked with a registered serial number.



Airsoft guns (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airsoft_gun) and imitations of real guns will also be governed by the new law.



Only one weapon may be purchased per weapon acquisition permit: Presumably, this will dry out the market for relatively cheap used guns, including popular collector's items such as Swiss army revolvers from the late 19th/early 20th century.



Weapons acquired from an individual in the last ten years (which did not require a weapon acquisition permit) have to be registered. As a central weapons register was politically unfeasible, the authorities hope to get an overview of the market through this registration requirement.



While the above mentioned "free arms" remain exempt from the weapon acquisition permit, the vendor is required to notify the local arms bureau of the sale.

Source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Switzerland)

[Stranger Than Paradise]

AHHHHHHHHHHHHH.

Sorry I have just been involved in to many conversation in real life, including commies on this subject and on this forum and in my experience it never gets us anywhere and usually just raise my blood pressure. So I can't get involved in this thread, especially now that is 5 pages deep.

I have my guns and that's good enough for me.

"funny" story: I was chilling at the bourgeois institution that is Dartmouth College, enjoying some muggles with some students when I got into a conversation with a self identified communist from NYC. We got into a heated conversation with him about gun ownership, partially relating to communism. After maybe an hour of this, our mutual friend interrupts us and says "sorry to both you, but I just wanted to let you know that you guys have thoroughly alienated yourselves from the group." to which I responded "whatever, we are already so alienated from each other (and ourselves)."

So what who cares? I hate it when people do that.

[ellipsis]

So what who cares? I hate it when people do that.

What alienate themselves or tell people that they are alienating themselves?

[Stranger Than Paradise]

What alienate themselves or tell people that they are alienating themselves?

The people that tell people stuff like that.

[Red Icepick]

The people that tell people stuff like that.

Nice Videodrome avatar.

[Irish commie]

[QUOTE=I have already detailed how easy it is to buy ileagel firearms and I seriously doubt someone bent on shooting up kiddies before shooting himself is going to give a shit about gun laws.
[/QUOTE]
so why are their so few massacres like virginia tech and colombine in places with tight gun control.
The idea of everyone running around with gus scares me, within capitalism and its huge ideas about the individual this would be madness everyone shooting everyone else. Especially in london when often u give someone a little as a dirty look and they sometimes want to kill you, you wan to make that easier.

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

Ok first of you don't have gun masacures in the UK today for the same reason there wasn't during the victorain era when little kids could buy guns very cheaply as long as they paid bout five pounds at the post office.In london people like to be macho and act as if they will kill over nothing , thats not the case its a cultural thing those who would shoot you already have guns. (Which anyone outside of kensington im sure is aware of)

[MilitantAnarchist]

I really thought that more people would feel that guns were not part of our future... I wouldn't want to live in a society where we 'need' guns... If people see a post-revolutionary place for guns, I'm fast losing love for this forum.

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

http://expatmanca.files.wordpress.com/2007/11/tenderheart_bear_large.gif

[Havet]

I really thought that more people would feel that guns were not part of our future... I wouldn't want to live in a society where we 'need' guns... If people see a post-revolutionary place for guns, I'm fast losing love for this forum.

People aren't arguing that they need guns in a post-revolutionary place. They are arguing that they need guns NOW.

[Dejavu]

I'd keep mine anyway , even in a supposed post-rev utopia. I hope I don't have to use it but if you start coming and trying to use violence against me in the name of some utopian ideal I'll pop a cap in your ass. :D

Ok, maybe not that extreme but you get the jist. ;)

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

and post revolution.

[Havet]

http://expatmanca.files.wordpress.com/2007/11/tenderheart_bear_large.gif

Tell me, do you have a fetish for these kind of bears? Because it's not the first time i've seen you post it in this very same thread :D

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

I fucking love care bears.

[Havet]

I fucking love care bears.

What about teletubbies?

[Dejavu]

"We should live like the Smurfs." -Karl Marx
http://www.the-iss.com/2008/11/05/img/smurfs-main.jpg

http://www.gunaxin.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/smurfs.jpg

http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/upload/news/080905_p15_smurfs.jpg

[Havet]

"We should live like the Smurfs." -Karl Marx




you're actually right.

"The Smurfs' community generally takes the form of a cooperative, sharing and kind environment based on the principle that each Smurf has something he or she is good at, and thus contributes it to Smurf society as he or she can. In return, each Smurf appears to be given their necessities of life, from housing and clothes to food. Some have argued that the foundation of Smurf society resembles the basic principles of Communism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism), although Peyo's son, Thierry Culliford, has stated in an interview that his father "wasn't interested in politics at all".[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smurfs#cite_note-5)"

From here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smurfs#Smurf_universe).

[Dejavu]

you're actually right.

"The Smurfs' community generally takes the form of a cooperative, sharing and kind environment based on the principle that each Smurf has something he or she is good at, and thus contributes it to Smurf society as he or she can. In return, each Smurf appears to be given their necessities of life, from housing and clothes to food. Some have argued that the foundation of Smurf society resembles the basic principles of Communism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism), although Peyo's son, Thierry Culliford, has stated in an interview that his father "wasn't interested in politics at all".[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smurfs#cite_note-5)"

From here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smurfs#Smurf_universe).

Ofc I'm right. I'm always right! :laugh:

Anyway, I was being satirical.

[SouthernBelle82]

Back in the 1800's and early 1900's every household was to have a gun however unlike today every male who was military age had to have training once a month. The founding fathers were against a standing military hence why the second amendment with militias.

[SouthernBelle82]

"We should live like the Smurfs." -Karl Marx
http://www.the-iss.com/2008/11/05/img/smurfs-main.jpg

http://www.gunaxin.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/smurfs.jpg

http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/upload/news/080905_p15_smurfs.jpg

LOL too bad there was only one girl. I never got that personally even as a little kid.

[Stranger Than Paradise]

Nice Videodrome avatar.

Thank you, you like the film too? David Cronenberg is one of my favourite directors.

[Dejavu]

LOL too bad there was only one girl. I never got that personally even as a little kid.

She was public property used for the production of other smurfs.

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/8321302.stm

Cuz there are no guns in britain

amiright?

[Havet]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/8321302.stm

Cuz there are no guns in britain

amiright?

The most incredible thing is that they wanted to ban knives as well

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/4581871.stm

What next? pointy sticks?

Maybe we should make it illegal to clench your fist.

Your fist is a deadly weapon, you dont need to have one.

Why would you need a fist unless you planned on hitting someone?

[Muzk]

someone tell me why the same guy who said fascism works and communism doesnt, opened hundreds of threads, openly showed that hes a reactionary still isnt restricted? because he has "anarchist" in his name?

he seems to argue just about EVERYTHING just for the sake of rebelling against something

[Robert]

Why would you need a fist unless you planned on hitting someone? Because you may need to have a wank. Hey, look at me, olde boy ... I speak English!

[bcbm]

Well, it's possible.

not to mention fun

[Red Icepick]

Thank you, you like the film too? David Cronenberg is one of my favourite directors.

Yeah, I love it. Cronenberg is great. My favorite of his is Dead Ringers. What a twisted movie.

[Red Icepick]

"We should live like the Smurfs." -Karl Marx


http://www.gunaxin.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/smurfs.jpg



Not at all, comrades! Don't be fooled by their pleasant demeanor. The Smurfs were total Nazis who need to be destroyed. All it would take is a single Vasily Zaitsev to take out their female, and they will all die out.

The Smurfs were created by a Belgian named Peyo Culliford. After he died in 1992, his son said that his father was disappointed in the German defeat throughout his life. He made the cartoon as obvious Pan-Aryan propaganda. The Smurfs were a bunch of blue-blooded National-Socialists. Look at their enemy:

http://files.fluctuat.net/images/g/a/gargamel1.gif

Gee, I wonder who that's supposed to be? This cartoon was genuinely anti-semitic depicting "The Jew" as always trying to destroy their Aryan community. His cat was even named "Azrael."

DOWN WITH THE SMURFS!

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

Not at all, comrades! Don't be fooled by their pleasant demeanor. The Smurfs were total Nazis who need to be destroyed. All it would take is a single Vasily Zaitsev to take out their female, and they will all die out.

The Smurfs were created by a Belgian named Peyo Culliford. After he died in 1992, his son said that his father was disappointed in the German defeat throughout his life. He made the cartoon as obvious Pan-Aryan propaganda. The Smurfs were a bunch of blue-blooded National-Socialists. Look at their enemy:

http://files.fluctuat.net/images/g/a/gargamel1.gif

Gee, I wonder who that's supposed to be? This cartoon was genuinely anti-semitic depicting "The Jew" as always trying to destroy their Aryan community.

DOWN WITH THE SMURFS!


http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_WAi2txkagVM/SSGLeLwVZuI/AAAAAAAAEAI/NNCdtoLP2yM/s400/not_funny.jpg

[Havet]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_WAi2txkagVM/SSGLeLwVZuI/AAAAAAAAEAI/NNCdtoLP2yM/s400/not_funny.jpg

:lol:

[Red Icepick]

Piss off, Joe. You're probably the most consistently idiotic troll on here.

Anyhow here's more racist propaganda found in the Smurfs. The original comic "The Black Smurf" which was actually censored for the Hanna-Barbera cartoon, where they made the insanely violent black Smurf purple:

http://www.toplessrobot.com/noir1.jpg

[ls]

The police having guns around Tottenham is nothing new.

Carrying them around on estates as standard is taking the piss though.

Damn nigger, paki, turk and other ethnic scum around Brixton and Tottenham (the classic areas) can't be trusted even in their own homes, we need to patrol the fuck out of them then shoot their coloured hides.

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

god forbid some middle easten kid with a rucksack is late for school and runs to get there.

[ls]

Well, it's that or you get shot at by nasty little bastards on the street for being in the wrong area.

Seems like you can't hide from guns if you're from Tottenham, even though they are supposedly banned! Fuck yeah, let's stop workers from having guns and watch as crime falls! :thumbup1: :rolleyes: