I have reached a point of utter confusion

[Irish commie]

I know i am a communist with probably fairly anarchist symapathies but hsis board has confused my stance greatly on the USSR especially, couyld you please share your views I also dont know what "communist" china was like can anyone help.

[Tatarin]

You just have to make up your own mind. Check www.marxists.org (http://www.marxists.org) for a lot of works by everything from Anarchists to Hoxhaists.

[Invincible Summer]

China under Mao's hand wasn't perfect, but it did have several positive notes:

-Average life expectancy rose from 35 years to at least 65
- Literacy rose from 20% to 80%
- Health care and education improved dramatically ("barefoot" doctors covered many villages to provide health care to those who would normally not receive it)
- Greater equality for women


But generally, the different factions here on RevLeft have diff opinions on the USSR and China.

[ArrowLance]

For the USSR it seems to be about how accepting you are of bourgeois history and what level of 'dirty deeds' you feel are acceptable in the situation the USSR was in. Some of the things such as the purges and gulags may seem extreme, and they are, but you have to understand what kind of pressure the USSR was under. Also many of these things have been greatly exaggerated and in some cases completely fabricated by the western bourgeoisie.

For example, Cuba and 'censorship.' As I understand it, Cuba had lots of problems with counter-revolutionary material being distributed from the United States, things like the kidnapping of Cuban children were happening. So the rules are strict (most likely not as strict as outside sources report) so that these things can be avoided. These things might not be completely acceptable to you, even under the circumstances they are enacted, but you need to look at the whole picture.

Stalin wasn't just some blood thirsty dictator. He had reasons for doing the things he did (understand I don't believe some of what is reported of what he did) and he didn't have sole control over the USSR. Stalin did NOT personally execute 10 Million citizens!

As for China under Mao, although I should research more on the subject, I feel there were many successes. Like those listed above me. But something seems to have gone wrong with it, I still should research more on modern China.

If you have any personal questions or the such I am generally available to have a one on one chat. Just get in contact with me somehow (email, pm, live chat) and I will try to get back to you.

[Tatarin]

Also to keep in mind; things that have happened in other countried may seem horrible from a western perspective. We'll never hear about our police brutality, our censorship of the media, camps, military, and exploitations of other nations. Those are masked in "deals" or "partnerships" and "agreements".

I also believe it is vital not to look at the USSR, or China or any other nation, past or present, as one constant event, beginning in A and ending in B. The USSR had bad times, but it also had better times, just as the histories of any other capitalist nation.

Personally, I believe that one shouldn't be too fixated on what countries or leaders were good or not.

[Mälli]

There are authoritans and libertarians, thats why I get confused too.

[NecroCommie]

Fueling disagreements over historical differences is counter productive, and can be straightforward sectarian. I'd suggest concentrating on the modern party lines and priorities of different movements. One may support Stalin's purges all one wants, and still come out as a posterboy of communist values.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

This might help you:

http://www.marxists.de/china/hore/index.htm

[New Tet]

China under Mao's hand wasn't perfect, but it did have several positive notes:

-Average life expectancy rose from 35 years to at least 65
- Literacy rose from 20% to 80%
- Health care and education improved dramatically ("barefoot" doctors covered many villages to provide health care to those who would normally not receive it)
- Greater equality for women


But generally, the different factions here on RevLeft have diff opinions on the USSR and China.

One of them is that despite [the] enormous accomplishments of the people of China under Mao, or under the CPC and the PRC as its political expression, China remained largely a class-divided society; politically and socially repressive, authoritarian and exploitative.

For those of us who advocate Marxian socialism, those characteristics are its antitheses.

[Invincible Summer]

One of them is that despite [the] enormous accomplishments of the people of China under Mao, or under the CPC and the PRC as its political expression, China remained largely a class-divided society; politically and socially repressive, authoritarian and exploitative.

For those of us who advocate Marxian socialism, those characteristics are its antitheses.

This is true. I was just pulling out my "not everything about the PRC is 100% evil" points.

[Schrödinger's Cat]

Take what Soviet propaganda claimed. Then add what American propaganda claim(s). Divide by two.

[Crux]

One of them is that despite [the] enormous accomplishments of the people of China under Mao, or under the CPC and the PRC as its political expression, China remained largely a class-divided society; politically and socially repressive, authoritarian and exploitative.

For those of us who advocate Marxian socialism, those characteristics are its antitheses.
Except private property was actually abolished when they expropriated the bourguise. Not that I'd argue about the repressive form of the regime though.

[Crux]

Take what Soviet propaganda claimed. Then add what American propaganda claim(s). Divide by two.
Absolutly not. I've seen examples of this that land you in a fucking horrible place. Think a liberal who think Stalin was good but that the system couldn't work because market economy is "natural".
Rather, study Marx and Lenin. I would also strongly recommend The Revolution Betrayed by leon Trotsky, for a perspective on the USSR by one of the leaders of the October revolution and main members of the Bolshevik party who got murdered by the regime for upholding the marxist and bolshevik traditions in the face of the growing bureaucracy.

[bailey_187]

Think a liberal who think Stalin was good but that the system couldn't work because market economy is "natural".
.

:confused:

Seriously, Liberals never think Stalin was in anyway good.

Many do, however, believe Trotsky was "good but that the system couldn't work because market economy is "natural""

Your myth of the Revolution being hijacked (take it to another thread if you feel the need to debate this) by Stalin is what the Liberals/Social democrats believe.

[Schrödinger's Cat]

Absolutly not. I've seen examples of this that land you in a fucking horrible place. Think a liberal who think Stalin was good but that the system couldn't work because market economy is "natural".
Rather, study Marx and Lenin. I would also strongly recommend The Revolution Betrayed by leon Trotsky, for a perspective on the USSR by one of the leaders of the October revolution and main members of the Bolshevik party who got murdered by the regime for upholding the marxist and bolshevik traditions in the face of the growing bureaucracy.

Yeah, because Trotsky was the pinnacle of objective standards.