Police.

[demarchist]

You all criticise the police from behind your keyboards, but who the fuck do you all call when your car get stolen by some thug?

That's right.

[red cat]

Here in the third world mostly rich people can afford cars.

[red cat]

Police forces are a part of the state's armed forces and one of the chief organizations that are to be liquidated during a revolution.

[demarchist]

But without the police, who will police the government??

[red cat]

The masses can take turns to do that after the revolution.

[#FF0000]

You all criticise the police from behind your keyboards, but who the fuck do you all call when your car get stolen by some thug?

That's right.

Who the fuck do the bosses call when my co-workers and I want to fight for our rights as workers?

That's right.

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

The reason why we have to call the police if someone assults / robs us is because if we organize our own groups to protect us , the police put us in prison or kill us.

Understand?

[Holden Caulfield]

The police aren't evil.
If I hear somebody down stairs at night I'm not going to ring the SWP i tell you that.

Societies are not 'black and white' and capitalist institutions aren't inherently evil, nor are the people in them.

Would you similarly refuse to use the NHS because its basically used to keep the work force healthy for exploitation?

The person who started the thread is probably not a comrade, but the answers given are hardly sufficient to his point.

[Dean]

You all criticise the police from behind your keyboards, but who the fuck do you all call when your car get stolen by some thug?

That's right.

The police, duh. But I call my boss for a paycheck, the state for my tax return and services I pay for through taxes.

Congratulations, you've proven that the state has power over us. And that justifies their actions how? Its ok for them to assault my brother, and back up my father who beat us as kids, because they are the only ones with power to get my car back?

Fuck them.

[Havet]

The police, duh. But I call my boss for a paycheck, the state for my tax return and services I pay for through taxes.

Congratulations, you've proven that the state has power over us. And that justifies their actions how? Its ok for them to assault my brother, and back up my father who beat us as kids, because they are the only ones with power to get my car back?

Fuck them.

this. I might also add:

Is it ok for them to tell me that I cannot own a gun for self-defense?

Is it ok for them to tell me that I cannot put certain substances in my body?

Is it okay for them to tell me that I can't ride a car without a seatbelt?

Is it okay for them to tell me that I can't copy copyrighted material?

why?

[Havet]

Also, study this image attentively:

http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/1849/20090926copprissues.png

[Robert]

Is it ok for them to tell me that I cannot own a gun for self-defense?

[No. You really cannot own a gun at all?]

Is it ok for them to tell me that I cannot put certain substances in my body?

[No. Except for meth. You cannot put meth in your body because it will eventually turn you into a piece of fecal material.]

Is it okay for them to tell me that I can't ride a car without a seatbelt?

[I want to say no, but there are actually studies showing that failure to wear seatbelts can cause you to lose control of the vehicle.]

Is it okay for them to tell me that I can't copy copyrighted material?
[No, unless you plan to distribute it to others. Then it's okay to stop you.]

why?

[Because if I sweated over my Great American Novel, I am entitled to the fruit of my labor. You aren't.]

You really have too many laws in Europe. You should emigrate to Canada or the USA. Preferably the USA, because, as our moderator says, we have better beer than you guys and we do not heat it up before we serve it.

[Pogue]

The police aren't evil.
If I hear somebody down stairs at night I'm not going to ring the SWP i tell you that.

Societies are not 'black and white' and capitalist institutions aren't inherently evil, nor are the people in them.

Would you similarly refuse to use the NHS because its basically used to keep the work force healthy for exploitation?

The person who started the thread is probably not a comrade, but the answers given are hardly sufficient to his point.

just like screws ey?

[MilitantAnarchist]

You all criticise the police from behind your keyboards, but who the fuck do you all call when your car get stolen by some thug?

That's right.

Actually i dont criticse the police from behind my keyboard, i'm quite happy to say it anywhere...

if MY car got stolen by some 'thug', if he was a good enough mechanic to get it going he's welcome to it :laugh:

And also i dont know what your experience of coppers are but i think more people have had bad ones then people have had good ones... Theoretically they are there to protect US, and that gives us the right to say they do a shit job and we dont trust em (well technically, they only protect the rich, if tesco's is getting robbed they are there in a jiffy, if your getting robbed it takes em about a week to get there, when they find 'time')

[Havet]

[No. You really cannot own a gun at all?]

Not without a special police license


No. Except for meth. You cannot put meth in your body because it will eventually turn you into a piece of fecal material.

And it's MY problem, not the police's, whether i end up a piece of fecal material or not. If I unconsciously aggress someone because of that condition, it is MY responsibility, and I should be punished accordingly, since the effects of such drugs are well documented and readily available.


I want to say no, but there are actually studies showing that failure to wear seatbelts can cause you to lose control of the vehicle.

Even if that were true (statements are not proof of fact, it appears you forgot to cite your "sources"), it's still my responsibility, and if i hurt someone i should be punished accordingly. Having the police waste time checking if everyone is wearing their seatbelts is not got going to help. If people want to take that risk, let them do it, but warn them of the consequences ahead.


No, unless you plan to distribute it to others. Then it's okay to stop you.

Why is it okay to stop me?

Do you think I am "stealing"?

I am doing nothing of the kind. Piracy is not stealing. Piracy makes a copy, whereas stealing removes the original.


Because if I sweated over my Great American Novel, I am entitled to the fruit of my labor. You aren't.

What the hell's that supposed to mean? I hope you're not trying to justify any social contract, because that subject has long been (http://www.nothirdsolution.com/2009/01/15/the-state-is-not-a-voluntary-arrangement/) discredited (http://www.nothirdsolution.com/non-libertarian-faq/#7).


You really have too many laws in Europe. You should emigrate to Canada or the USA. Preferably the USA, because, as our moderator says, we have better beer than you guys and we do not heat it up before we serve it.

There is at least an european country that I know of which has far less laws than the USA. Can you guess it?

[Bud Struggle]

Not without a special police license See, some things are better in the USA. ;)


And it's MY problem, not the police's, whether i end up a piece of fecal material or not. If I unconsciously aggress someone because of that condition, it is MY responsibility, and I should be punished accordingly, since the effects of such drugs are well documented and readily available. It's society's problem if you have universal healthcare and society is forced to pay for your upkeep while you brain is a piece of fecal matter. If I have to pay for your condition I should have a say in what you can and can't do to yourself.


Even if that were true...it's still my responsibility, and if i hurt someone i should be punished accordingly. Having the police waste time checking if everyone is wearing their seatbelts is not got going to help. If people want to take that risk, let them do it, but warn them of the consequences ahead. Maybe not. It's the police's job to be pro-active in protecting innocent people against people that can hut them, e.g. unsafe drivers.


Why is it okay to stop me?

I am doing nothing of the kind. Piracy is not stealing. Call it what you will--you are taking something that doesn't belong to you.

[FSL]

You all criticise the police from behind your keyboards, but who the fuck do you all call when your car get stolen by some thug?

That's right.



Police can beat up workers because they also occasionaly retrieve stolen goods?

[Plagueround]

Call it what you will--you are taking something that doesn't belong to you.

If someone places their work on a digital medium and I have the capability to reverse engineer, copy, and/or distribute it, on what grounds can someone say I'm taking something that does not belong to me if they still have their copies and I'm not claiming credit for their work? The only argument that could come close to holding up here is a moralistic or legalistic one, which you would then have to defend. Clearly, it isn't as cut and dry as stealing.

[yuon]

But without the police, who will police the government??

But with out the police and army, there would be no government.

:cool: :tt1:

[ls]

They are very helpful. If you have your head stuck in a toilet and own shares in businesses.

[Robert]

Not without a special police license

Wow. It really is going to be hard to get a revolution going over there.:lol:


Even if that were true (statements are not proof of fact, it appears you forgot to cite your "sources"), it's still my responsibility, and if i hurt someone i should be punished accordingly. Having the police waste time checking if everyone is wearing their seatbelts is not got going to help. If people want to take that risk, let them do it, but warn them of the consequences ahead.

I didn't forget, I just didn't think you'd made me waste 10 minutes looking for some stupid study that states the obvious: if you are flopping or flying around inside the passenger compartment of a moving car in a crash, we can't agree that you under those circumstances have less control over the vehicle?

And by your logic, you should be able to drive at top speed in your Ferrari through a school zone just so long as you are willing to "take the risk." Call me a despot, but I won't let you do that either.

Anyway, here's the one military study I found, and no I don't now how scientific it was, and you can't open it because it has been deleted by internet commandos at the Ayn Rand Center for Advanced Libertarian Studies, so don't try clicking on it. It's gone. But you know I'm right:




Seat Belts Save Lives (https://safety.army.mil/knowledge_online/may2008/SeatBeltsSaveLives/tabid/811/Default.aspx)

May 1, 2008 ... The unbelted driver will be unable to maintain control of the vehicle, ... Seat belts save lives and help reduce the severity of injuries resulting ... Seat belts are the most valuable safety devices in vehicles today. ...
https://safety.army.mil/.../SeatBeltsSaveLives/.../Default.aspx



Clearly, it isn't as cut and dry as stealing.

Not as "cut and dried" as stealing, eh? There seems something about copyright infringement you don't quite find palatable. What is it?

How about you writing [name your favorite song] and me going and performing it to adoring throngs, in an adorable thong, and claiming I wrote it. Plus getting paid for it. Plus getting laid for it. You've got no problem with any of that?

[yuon]

"claiming I wrote it"

Having a claim to the authorship of a work is quite different from having control over what happens subsequently to that work. I personally tend to encourage people to use my work.

So, that reminds me, I think I might release all my posts on RevLeft under a copyleft licence.

Anyone got a suggestion as to a good copyleft licence for that purpose? It should be short, and permit copying, derivitives etc., so long as all that is under the same licence.

[ls]

Anyone got a suggestion as to a good copyleft licence for that purpose? It should be short, and permit copying, derivitives etc., so long as all that is under the same licence.

A very silly thing, GPL like licences really.

I much prefer that cc one (http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/3.0/) which simply prevents usage of it for making profit, that's actually anti-capitalist but still allowing of creative freedom, the BSD one is cool too.

GPL zealots are ugh. :sleep:

[Havet]

It's society's problem if you have universal healthcare and society is forced to pay for your upkeep while you brain is a piece of fecal matter. If I have to pay for your condition I should have a say in what you can and can't do to yourself.

What if I don't use the universal healthcare?


Maybe not. It's the police's job to be pro-active in protecting innocent people against people that can hut them, e.g. unsafe drivers.

Maybe the police should also be pro-active and protect young children from abusive parents, by taking ALL the children away and letting the government school them.


Call it what you will--you are taking something that doesn't belong to you.

I bought the product, and then decided to give it away for free to a friend. Trade implies that ownership is transferred, so how the hell can i buy something and then not do whatever the fuck I want with it?

It's not impossible to make profit without taking advantage of copyright laws (http://www.internetdj.com/article/radiohead-releases-new-album-in-rainbows-for-free-934), if that's what your concerned about.

[Havet]

Anyway, here's the one military study I found, and no I don't now how scientific it was, and you can't open it because it has been deleted by internet commandos at the Ayn Rand Center for Advanced Libertarian Studies, so don't try clicking on it. It's gone. But you know I'm right:



Seat Belts Save Lives (https://safety.army.mil/knowledge_online/may2008/SeatBeltsSaveLives/tabid/811/Default.aspx)

May 1, 2008 ... The unbelted driver will be unable to maintain control of the vehicle, ... Seat belts save lives and help reduce the severity of injuries resulting ... Seat belts are the most valuable safety devices in vehicles today. ...
https://safety.army.mil/.../SeatBeltsSaveLives/.../Default.aspx

And what make you think you'd have to force people to wear seatbelts? truth is, they would naturally (and have naturally) choose them.

Here's the trivia you are leaving behind:

"American car manufacturers Nash (in 1949) and Ford (in 1955) offered seatbelts as options, while Swedish Saab (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saab) first introduced seat belts as standard in 1958.[15] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seatbelts#cite_note-independent.co.uk-14)"

"After the Saab GT 750 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saab_GT750) was introduced at the New York motor show in 1958 with safety belts fitted as standard, the practice became commonplace.[16] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seatbelts#cite_note-15)"

"In 1970, the state of Victoria, Australia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victoria,_Australia), passed the first law worldwide making seat belt wearing compulsory for drivers and front-seat passengers.[18] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seatbelts#cite_note-driverstech-17)"

In 1958, the first car company produced seatbelts as standards, while in 1949 and 1955 other companies already offered them as a choice. Also, around 1958, all other car companies saw that seat belts were profitable.

Only 12 years later did any government pass a law requiring seat belts. Hell of a timing, don't you think?



How about you writing [name your favorite song] and me going and performing it to adoring throngs, in an adorable thong, and claiming I wrote it. Plus getting paid for it. Plus getting laid for it. You've got no problem with any of that?

Nothing against it. Of course, you would never be able to do that, because I would make damn sure that I'd only share the song with anybody once I was in a condition to perform ir to adorable throngs, in an adorable thong, besides getting paid for it and getting laid for it.

You are forgetting the First Immutable Law of Marketing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_22_Immutable_Laws_of_Marketing):

"1. It is better to be first than it is to be better."

[Module]

But without the police, who will police the government??The role of the police is not to "police the government". It's to police the people. Deal with crime.

[Radical]

My opinions differentiate on Police.

I spoke to a few Police at the recent Anti-EDL Protest in Manchester. After the successful event I stood talking to a cop for a good 30 minitues at the train station about what his views are on the EDL, and what he believes his role is to do in society.

He argued that his role is purely to keep the peace. This means staying independant from organisations. However he agreed with me on many of my comments and supported our resistence against Fascism. He also acknowledged that most of the EDL were Racist Thugs coming to the protest to cause trouble.

I got into a fight with a Fascist who I and a number of Comrades chased down a street. It was not me, but the Fascist that was arrested and restrained by the three cops. I then taunted and took photographs of the Fascist whilst he was being restrained and arrested. No effort at all was done to prevent me from doing what I did.

The police may well work for the enemy. But they can also be a progressive force in our resistance to Fascism.

[Muzk]

When even the cops are on our side, then we are doing something right

And never forget they are humans like everyone else.

"Man is very useful, he can shoot and he can kill,
but he has one defect:
he can think"

Hell yes!

[Robert]

Hayenmill, you'd just better buckle up, and as Jr. Brown says ... slow it down!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_wLVCLPx0M

I got a star on my car and one on my chest,
A gun on my hip and the right to arrest
I'm the guy who's the boss on this highway
So watch out what you're doin' when you're drivin' my way
If you break the law, you'll hear from me, I know
I'm a-workin' for the state, I'm The Highway Patrol

Well, you'll know me when you see me, 'cause my door's painted white,
My siren a-screamin' and my flashin' red lights
I work all day and I work all night
Just a-keepin' law and order, tryin' to do what's right
If I write you out a ticket, then you'd better drive slow
I'm just a-doin' my job
(http://www.lyricsdownload.com/junior-brown-highway-patrol-lyrics.html#), I'm The Highway Patrol

I'm the highway patrol, the highway patrol,
My hours are long, and my pay is low
But I'll do my best to keep you driving slow
I'm just a-doin' my job, I'm The Highway Patrol

If your drivin' too fast like you shouldn't do,
You can bet your boots, I'm comin' after you
If you wanna race then get on a race track,
'Cause if you try and run away I'm gonna bring ya back
I'm here to keep all the speeders driving slow
I'm just a-doin' my job, I'm The Highway Patrol

I'm the highway patrol, the highway patrol,
My hours are long, and my pay is low
But I'll do my best to keep you driving slow
I'm just a-doin' my job, I'm The Highway Patrol

I'm just a-doin' my job
I'm The Highway Patrol!

[Bud Struggle]

What if I don't use the universal healthcare?I don't mind at all if you do whatever you want if I'm not paying the tab. But if you have universal healthcare--I OWN YOUR SOUL.




Maybe the police should also be pro-active and protect young children from abusive parents, by taking ALL the children away and letting the government school them. We don't know all parents are abusive--we do know that all unseatbelted driving in unsafe.



I bought the product, and then decided to give it away for free to a friend. Trade implies that ownership is transferred, so how the hell can i buy something and then not do whatever the fuck I want with it?

It's not impossible to make profit without taking advantage of copyright laws (http://www.internetdj.com/article/radiohead-releases-new-album-in-rainbows-for-free-934), if that's what your concerned about. You bought exactly ONE copy of the song, etc. If you make another copy it doesn't belong to you.

And [Edit] Junior Brown is the best picker THERE IS.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_3ZafF-2eI&feature=channel

And THIS!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRwzeXiPy2s&feature=related

[Havet]

Hayenmill, you'd just better buckle up, and as Jr. Brown says ... slow it down!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_wLVCLPx0M

I got a star on my car and one on my chest,
A gun on my hip and the right to arrest
I'm the guy who's the boss on this highway
So watch out what you're doin' when you're drivin' my way
If you break the law, you'll hear from me, I know
I'm a-workin' for the state, I'm The Highway Patrol

Well, you'll know me when you see me, 'cause my door's painted white,
My siren a-screamin' and my flashin' red lights
I work all day and I work all night
Just a-keepin' law and order, tryin' to do what's right
If I write you out a ticket, then you'd better drive slow
I'm just a-doin' my job
(http://www.lyricsdownload.com/junior-brown-highway-patrol-lyrics.html#), I'm The Highway Patrol

I'm the highway patrol, the highway patrol,
My hours are long, and my pay is low
But I'll do my best to keep you driving slow
I'm just a-doin' my job, I'm The Highway Patrol

If your drivin' too fast like you shouldn't do,
You can bet your boots, I'm comin' after you
If you wanna race then get on a race track,
'Cause if you try and run away I'm gonna bring ya back
I'm here to keep all the speeders driving slow
I'm just a-doin' my job, I'm The Highway Patrol

I'm the highway patrol, the highway patrol,
My hours are long, and my pay is low
But I'll do my best to keep you driving slow
I'm just a-doin' my job, I'm The Highway Patrol

I'm just a-doin' my job
I'm The Highway Patrol!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BxBs4f4RIU

Chorus:

Woop-woop!
That's the sound of da police!
Woop-woop!
That's the sound of the beast!

Verse One:

Stand clear! Don man a-talk
You can't stand where I stand, you can't walk where I walk
Watch out! We run New York
Police man come, we bust him out the park
I know this for a fact, you don't like how I act
You claim I'm sellin' crack
But you be doin' that
I'd rather say "see ya"
Cause I would never be ya
Be a officer? You WICKED overseer!
Ya hotshot, wanna get props and be a saviour
First show a little respect, change your behavior
Change your attitude, change your plan
There could never really be justice on stolen land
Are you really for peace and equality?
Or when my car is hooked up, you know you wanna follow me
Your laws are minimal
Cause you won't even think about lookin' at the real criminal
This has got to cease
Cause we be getting HYPED to the sound of da police!

Chorus

Verse Two:

Now here's a likkle truth
Open up your eye
While you're checking out the boom-bap, check the exercise
Take the word "overseer," like a sample
Repeat it very quickly in a crew for example
Overseer
Overseer
Overseer
Overseer
Officer, Officer, Officer, Officer!
Yeah, officer from overseer
You need a little clarity?
Check the similarity!
The overseer rode around the plantation
The officer is off patroling all the nation
The overseer could stop you what you're doing
The officer will pull you over just when he's pursuing
The overseer had the right to get ill
And if you fought back, the overseer had the right to kill
The officer has the right to arrest
And if you fight back they put a hole in your chest!
(Woop!) They both ride horses
After 400 years, I've _got_ no choices!
The police them have a little gun
So when I'm on the streets, I walk around with a bigger one
(Woop-woop!) I hear it all day
Just so they can run the light and be upon their way

Chorus

Verse Three:

Check out the message in a rough stylee
The real criminals are the C-O-P
You check for undercover and the one PD
But just a mere Black man, them want check me
Them check out me car for it shine like the sun
But them jealous or them vexed cause them can't afford one
Black people still slaves up til today
But the Black police officer nah see it that way
Him want a salary
Him want it
So he put on a badge and kill people for it
My grandfather had to deal with the cops
My great-grandfather dealt with the cops
My GREAT grandfather had to deal with the cops
And then my great, great, great, great... when it's gonna stop?!

[Havet]

I don't mind at all if you do whatever you want if I'm not paying the tab. But if you have universal healthcare--I OWN YOUR SOUL.

Good, because I try as much not to go to universal healthcare (I have access to a cooperative healthcare organization)

Anyway, that logic leads to absurd conclusions (which is why taxing people to pay for universal healthcare is stupid), because then the "people" would have the right to tell everyone else what to eat (to minimize trips to hospital), what to do with their lives (use a seatbelt, wear a jacket, work out), what to drink, what to think, which just leads to a 1984 shithole.


We don't know all parents are abusive--we do know that all unseatbelted driving in unsafe.

It might be unsafe, but its downright hysterical to assume we need babysitters (cops) to constantly check who is wearing them.


You bought exactly ONE copy of the song, etc. If you make another copy it doesn't belong to you.

And [Edit] Junior Brown is the best picker THERE IS.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_3ZafF-2eI&feature=channel

And THIS!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRwzeXiPy2s&feature=related

http://img393.imageshack.us/img393/8945/1205139844283mc7.gif

Here's a comment which might help you understand from Patri Friedman:




It is not semantic hair-splitting. It is a simple, genuine, important difference. Your example indicates that you don't understand it, which I find weird:

"If I go to some sort of practitioner of whatever and walk out without paying, I haven't stolen anything tangible, just their time."

But their time is not a copy. It is irreplaceable. They will never get those moments back. Therefore what you have done is theft. If you used the public record to create an AI simulacrum of the practitioner, and consult the simulacrum instead of the practitioner, that is analogous to pirating the time of the practitioner. (You may be stealing the time of the simulacrum, but that is a separate issue).

The question is not tangibility. The question is whether, after I do ____, someone else then has less of something than they did before. If I "go to someone for their services, and don't pay them", they have less time than before. If I ask Google what I was going to ask the professional and so don't need their services, they haven't lost anything.

[Robert]

Anyway, that logic leads to absurd conclusions (which is why taxing people to pay for universal healthcare is stupid), because then the "people" would have the right to tell everyone else what to eat (to minimize trips to hospital)

Hay-dude for President!

I don't know about "stupid," but it's surely bad policy, or perhaps a bad if unintended consequence of a well-meaning policy. We in the states are arguably at that point now, what with mandatory labeling of calories, proteins, fat grams, carbohydrates, etc. on absolutely every packaged food product shipped in interstate commerce.

What I see next are mandatory exercise requirements to keep off the blubber. I shall be exempt because I have too many other responsibilities, such as posting deep thoughts on the internet and playing my guitar.

[AntifaAustralia]

My opinions differentiate on Police. ......................
...............The police may well work for the enemy. But they can also be a progressive force in our resistance to Fascism.

Exactly true, i share the same values with you anti-fascist brother!

Analysis on why i like police OR COMMUNITY!

The value of Community is very much on my mind and my friend Radical's too.
Screw you nihilists and anti-community anarchists, national anarchists and similar retards, go commit suicide you anti-people pessimists.

Gun laws must be in place for the safety of community! The democratic representatives of the people of the world (government) must take lead! If they fuck up, anarchism!!!

Not all military and Police are bad! yes there are the Fascist ones, But there are ALSO the Communist/anarchist/socialist ones!

Fuck the police! The fascist police! BUT not the left wing police! (would they be called militants? the anti-capitalist police?)

[#FF0000]

Exactly true, i share the same values with you anti-fascist brother!

Analysis on why i like police OR COMMUNITY!

The value of Community is very much on my mind and my friend Radical's too.
Screw you nihilists and anti-community anarchists, national anarchists and similar retards, go commit suicide you anti-people pessimists.

Gun laws must be in place for the safety of community! The democratic representatives of the people of the world (government) must take lead! If they fuck up, anarchism!!!

Not all military and Police are bad! yes there are the Fascist ones, But there are ALSO the Communist/anarchist/socialist ones!

Fuck the police! The fascist police! BUT not the left wing police! (would they be called militants? the anti-capitalist police?)

First off, don't just throw "fascist" around. Second off, if a cop starts to get into leftism and remains a cop without some serious internal dialogue, then they aren't much of a leftist either.

And finally,

Nobody is saying that cops and the military are bad because the individual members are all reactionary. Individual members of the police or army might have pretty progressive politics and be cool people. However we oppose them on the grounds that as police and as military members, they are serving the interests of the bourgeoisie.

I have no idea why this should even have to be explained.

[Orange Juche]

The police may well work for the enemy. But they can also be a progressive force in our resistance to Fascism.

A number of them, come some kind of revolution, might even be on our side.

I think it's a matter of them not being politically aware. Theres a lot of cops out there because they believe they are protecting people from "bad guys" who are trying to hurt people. Because they want to keep regular people safe, not because they want to protect the interests of a ruling elite.

Alot of them, I think, are pawns who don't even realize their real role in society.

[Purple]

According to classic Adam Smith the role of the police is to guard private property, which is easily interpreted by leftists such as ourselves to be a very pro-reactionary stance, and there are police laws today claiming that police does not have to interfere if they observe someone being directly harmed by other people. but taking into consideration their constant presence in the streets I've always seen police as a form of social control, whereas sedating behavioural diversity and protecting the general welfare of society, by taking action against things like littering or killing people, as well keeping social order, which are done not just by police alone, but also in just general social interaction. however, the police differentiates because they are actively participating in creating and maintaining social order and organization through being able of exercising authority.

however, legiaslature is made by politicans, which over-represents the middle class, as well as in countries like the US the lobbying industry that stems from private interests, such as the tobacco industry, is prevalent and have a unjustified overrepresentation in the exercise and creation of law.

[AntifaAustralia]

First off, don't just throw "fascist" around. Second off, if a cop starts to get into leftism and remains a cop without some serious internal dialogue, then they aren't much of a leftist either.

And finally,

Nobody is saying that cops and the military are bad because the individual members are all reactionary. Individual members of the police or army might have pretty progressive politics and be cool people. However we oppose them on the grounds that as police and as military members, they are serving the interests of the bourgeoisie.

I have no idea why this should even have to be explained.

Id prefer a left cop than a fascist racist religious prejudiced cop. Id prefer a chinese, cuban, Venezuelan cop over an american, italian, australian cop

WW2 was a war of the world's people against the nationalists, i geuss every American soldier was a right wing bastard, and so were the soviets. :confused:They shouldn't have fought

The cop and army forces represent the people. The governement isn't always the bourgeois.

[RGacky3]

I think the idea of piracy, i.e. making copies, just shows the rediculousness of "intelectual property" which goes on to show the rediculousness of capitalist property.

As soon as you say you own an idea, a melody, or whatever, then your restricting other peoples right to that melody or idea, which is insane, how can you own a melody? Intelectual property is nothing more than a way for the rich to become richer and for more power to be given to the ruling class, its rediculous.

[Bud Struggle]

As soon as you say you own an idea, a melody, or whatever, then your restricting other peoples right to that melody or idea, which is insane, how can you own a melody? Intelectual property is nothing more than a way for the rich to become richer and for more power to be given to the ruling class, its rediculous.

Well the point of intellectual property isn't (for the most part) to restrict anyone from using your intellectual property--it's to gain royalties from the property's use. It's not much different from you owning a piece of land and you let someone part their car on it and you charge them a couple of dollars for using it.

You own the melody because you wrote the melody--no one else did. I didn't write "Yesterday" (the biggest moneymaker of all time) Paul McCartney did and he deserves the right to profit from the song when money is made. Nobody cares if you sing the song in your shower or sing it to you girlfriend--but if you record the song and make MONEY off of the song--McCartney should share in the profits. I don't see how that's not reasonable.

Now to take it a step further--McCartney wrote the song and the Beatles recorded it--they have a right to control their property so (through their record company) if they decide to sell YOU a copy--then you own THAT COPY--you have no right to give or sell that copy to any one else because you only own THAT copy. All other copies belong to the Beatles.

I can't imagine how you wouldn't see how that wasn't fair. (At least in this world--not in the Anarchist world of the future.)

[NecroCommie]

Piracy being stealing is the most daft accusation I have heard ever. Let me elaborate.

Let's imagine a world where cars have an external button on them. Pushing this publicly accessible button will make an exactly identical car appear next to it. Surely it is not stealing if I push this button, drive away with the copied car, and leave the original one as it was. This goes especially when the copying process does not require any energy from the original car at all.

If you claim that is stealing, you are batshit crazy.

The very idea of ownership is fake. If I declared all the oxygen in the world mine, would you pay me for breathing? Why not? Well, because I have no means of violence to stop you from breathing without my permission. I can however make a realistic claim of ownership on a toothbrush I clearly use daily. If you touch it, I will notice it by evening, and use the system of violent ownership to kick the thiefs ass. As it happens, information in this equation is like oxygen. There is no fucking way to stop piracy, making it futile to even claim ownership.

The very reason why stealing was baned originally (in the dawn of aeons), is because stealing is taking something from someone. How can I steal from an artist, when the artist loses nothing, ingenting, ei mitään, nichts, rien!

[NecroCommie]

Well the point of intellectual property isn't (for the most part) to restrict anyone from using your intellectual property--it's to gain royalties from the property's use. It's not much different from you owning a piece of land and you let someone part their car on it and you charge them a couple of dollars for using it.

You honestly don't want me to start on fallacies of ownership, especially land ownership. Owning land is as ridiculous a claim as owning space. If you don't use that land yourself, you have no rights for it's "ownership" whatsoever. It just so happens that the current monopoly of violence does it's damnest to endorse this daft idea of land ownership. That however proves nothing at all.

[Bud Struggle]

You honestly don't want me to start on fallacies of ownership, especially land ownership. Owning land is as ridiculous a claim as owning space. If you don't use that land yourself, you have no rights for it's "ownership" whatsoever. It just so happens that the current monopoly of violence does it's damnest to endorse this daft idea of land ownership. That however proves nothing at all.

I understand all of that. But what you are describing is just not how the world works at this present time. My version is how the world works now and while each system has logical consistancy when their respective political and economic philosophies are in use--both of the systems are mutually exclusive. Right now we have Capitalism and it's laws of property and intellectual are consistant with Capitalism. Someday if we have Communism--your laws wil be the consistant ones with the real world.

[Nwoye]

You all criticise the police from behind your keyboards, but who the fuck do you all call when your car get stolen by some thug?

That's right.
If there's something strange in your neighborhood, who ya' gonna call?

If it's something weird and it don't look good, who ya' gonna call?

That's right.

[Robert]

If it's something weird and it don't look good, who ya' gonna call?

I don't know. My wife, probably:

"Honey, where'd you put my gun?"

[Nwoye]

I don't know. My wife, probably:

"Honey, where'd you put my gun?"
ghostbusters was the correct answer

[NecroCommie]

I understand all of that. But what you are describing is just not how the world works at this present time. My version is how the world works now and while each system has logical consistancy when their respective political and economic philosophies are in use--both of the systems are mutually exclusive. Right now we have Capitalism and it's laws of property and intellectual are consistant with Capitalism. Someday if we have Communism--your laws wil be the consistant ones with the real world.
Fine point and all, but already countered in my previous post.


Let's imagine a world where cars have an external button on them. Pushing this publicly accessible button will make an exactly identical car appear next to it. Surely it is not stealing if I push this button, drive away with the copied car, and leave the original one as it was. This goes especially when the copying process does not require any energy from the original car at all.

If you claim that is stealing, you are batshit crazy.

The very idea of ownership is fake. If I declared all the oxygen in the world mine, would you pay me for breathing? Why not? Well, because I have no means of violence to stop you from breathing without my permission. I can however make a realistic claim of ownership on a toothbrush I clearly use daily. If you touch it, I will notice it by evening, and use the system of violent ownership to kick the thiefs ass. As it happens, information in this equation is like oxygen. There is no fucking way to stop piracy, making it futile to even claim ownership.

[spice756]

You all criticise the police from behind your keyboards, but who the fuck do you all call when your car get stolen by some thug?

That's right.


That was 1800's where everyone had gun and took gun to the store or bar. Yes that was the wild west .

Cops are not evile or good they just do what the laws tells them to do .If they ban red pants than anyone that has red pants the cops whould stop and put them in jail .They do what the laws tells them to do.

Cops do not make up the law or think they do what the laws tells tham to do.

[Socialist Guy]

We should all hold upmost respect for most Police Officers. Remember, it's the minority that give the majority a bad name.

[#FF0000]

We should all hold upmost respect for most Police Officers. Remember, it's the minority that give the majority a bad name.

You should refer to this (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1571187&postcount=35) post, first of all.

And second of all, that statement is absurd. I don't know what it's like in the UK but I have a feeling it's much the same as in the U.S. when it comes to the fact that almost no police are punished for their misconduct, which is in large part due to the fact that the police lie and back each other up in court, regardless of the circumstances. Those in that supposed majority of "good cops" will do whatever they can to back up those "bad apples".

[AntifaAustralia]

You should refer to this (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1571187&postcount=35) post, first of all.

And second of all, that statement is absurd. I don't know what it's like in the UK but I have a feeling it's much the same as in the U.S. when it comes to the fact that almost no police are punished for their misconduct, which is in large part due to the fact that the police lie and back each other up in court, regardless of the circumstances. Those in that supposed majority of "good cops" will do whatever they can to back up those "bad apples".

Woah, stop there brother. Cops in the UK and USA are completely different shit. Cops in the USA are the most WORST MOTHER FUCKERS ON THIS PLANET! thanks to the gun laws that make the cops and the civilians shit themselves in a state of crisis, and at that stage the cops have more power.

The UK police actually allow protests, they are unarmed, and the police are freaking way better than the US ones.

We as a community should put in place laws (human rights, civil rights etc.), but strangely at times of crisis we seem to disobey them, sometimes justified and moslty plain stupid.

the cops represent democracy, we always need the police and army, and if the people like you cop-phobics decide not to join the forces then the right wing bastards get in there for you!

[#FF0000]

The UK police actually allow protests, they are unarmed, and the police are freaking way better than the US ones.

Whether or not they are armed has nothing to do with it, and cops in the UK have done absurd shit just as US police have. I recall a protest not long ago in which cops basically had protesters surrounded for hours and then proceeded to beat the hell out of them after awhile.


We as a community should put in place laws (human rights, civil rights etc.), but strangely at times of crisis we seem to disobey them, sometimes justified and moslty plain stupid.

I'm not sure what you're on about here. I'm not opposed to a law-enforcement body in a socialist society. I am just saying that the police in a capitalist society are there, primarily, to keep this system of violence and exploitation running smoothly. This is regardless of what individual cops believe. It is what the police in any society do. It is an institutional thing.


the cops represent democracy

How?

[bcbm]

Cops are not evile or good they just do what the laws tells them to do

no they don't.


We should all hold upmost respect for most Police Officers. Remember, it's the minority that give the majority a bad name.

the institutional role of the police is to protect the interests of the ruling class. acab.


The UK police actually allow protests

like when the kettled everyone at the g20 and killed that man? right.

[AntifaAustralia]

like when the kettled everyone at the g20 and killed that man? right.

I think i worded that wrong, i said "UK police allow protests". I think i meant the UK dont kill and bash like that of the fascist USA. The USA use bean bag guns and rubber bullets still?



I'm not sure what you're on about here. I'm not opposed to a law-enforcement body in a socialist society.

my brother this is where we share something in common, spot on. and in addition, a perfect internationalist socialist/communist society.


I am just saying that the police in a capitalist society are there, primarily, to keep this system of violence and exploitation running smoothly.
I know this, i was sounding like a Capitalist cop lover ay? sorry i was just arguing against irrational anti-cop sentiment.

[bcbm]

I think i worded that wrong, i said "UK police allow protests". I think i meant the UK dont kill and bash

i can't recall police killing anyone at protests here in recent years, whereas the uk police were involved in the death of a man at the g20 protests. and they certainly have no qualms using force.

i should probably explain that i'm not trying to suggest the police forces are equal in their level of brutality, but that all police serve the same institutional role and will do whatever they feel is necessary to fulfill that role and so arguing over which police force is more violent is pointless.


like that of the fascist USA.

"fascist" describes a specific political and economic system; it is not a catch-all term for "authoritarian."


The USA use bean bag guns and rubber bullets still?


yes.

[#FF0000]

I know this, i was sounding like a Capitalist cop lover ay? sorry i was just arguing against irrational anti-cop sentiment.

I really wouldn't say it's irrational, since it's based on the fact that the police as an institution is there to protect the interests of the ruling class.

[ls]

The UK police actually allow protests, they are unarmed, and the police are freaking way better than the US ones.

Unarmed like the police who mistook Jean Charles Demenezes for a terrible Muslim then essentially shot him 7 times in the head for jumping a subway ticket barrier?

Even at protests, they have used rubber bullets, tear gas, police horses, police dogs etc.. I wouldn't call that 'unarmed'. And if you look at the PSNI in Ulster, massive amounts of them are heavily armed most of the time.

[nuisance]

The police aren't evil.
If I hear somebody down stairs at night I'm not going to ring the SWP i tell you that.

Societies are not 'black and white' and capitalist institutions aren't inherently evil, nor are the people in them.

Would you similarly refuse to use the NHS because its basically used to keep the work force healthy for exploitation?

The person who started the thread is probably not a comrade, but the answers given are hardly sufficient to his point.
The cops place in society is immediately oppositional to ours, in that respect I suppose you can claim that they are 'evil', if you believe such blanket terms to be beneficial for any sort of analysis of society- though as you say things aren't simply black or white.
The point of the State is that it creates reliance upon itself by providing societal necessities to secure support for itself, like some sort of protection from crime, health services- which roles would be fulfilled by self-organised services if they weren't in existence. The belief some people have that we would simply do nothing to protect ourselves if there was no Statist solution is crazy. The fact that the State does provide benefical services also doesn't mean that we should respect these institutions in anyway, we take what we need and won't simply accept the 'it's better than nothing' agruement that more often than not leads to passivity when we know full well that their pivitol role in society is to protect and regulate capital.

[Dr Mindbender]

You all criticise the police from behind your keyboards, but who the fuck do you all call when your car get stolen by some thug?


I would take a big stick and find the fucker.

[Holden Caulfield]

The cops place in society is immediately oppositional to ours, in that respect I suppose you can claim that they are 'evil', if you believe such blanket terms to be beneficial for any sort of analysis of society- though as you say things aren't simply black or white.
The point of the State is that it creates reliance upon itself by providing societal necessities to secure support for itself, like some sort of protection from crime, health services- which roles would be fulfilled by self-organised services if they weren't in existence. The belief some people have that we would simply do nothing to protect ourselves if there was no Statist solution is crazy. The fact that the State does provide benefical services also doesn't mean that we should respect these institutions in anyway, we take what we need and won't simply accept the 'it's better than nothing' agruement that more often than not leads to passivity when we know full well that their pivitol role in society is to protect and regulate capital.

Its not a better than nothing argument, I am aware coppers will be used against us if and when the times comes, so will prisions. And I am against neither. Under the capitalist system the organs of the state do play a role, the police have science and the know how to catch criminals. I don't want the state to do my job but ifs it a choice of defending the police or living in utopian fantasy land I'll take the former.

What would you do about football hooliganism if you don't want the cops to do it? Big groups of young men just out to have a fight, would you get a bigger group and give them exactly what they want? Go to their house break in and stop each individual person from going to football games?

What about lone nutters who build bombs in their shed, how would you know what they were up to.

And internet paedophiles, how would the organised working class find and prosecute them.

I have nothing against the working class taking justice into their own hands in certain situations such as blowing paedos knee caps off, I dont think that ignoring social causes of crime will suffice, and I fucking hate alot of coppers who are border line fascists (most of the met police force for example). But I do live in the real world and not some lefty bubble where a nice theory will out do rational thought

[Holden Caulfield]

Alot of what has been said in this thread has been utter bullshit might I add.
Good on EP for having something of value to say

[Bud Struggle]

I would take a big stick and find the fucker.

And then that guy's friends would take some guns and knives and find you, and then your friend's would get some hatches and axes and find them and then....and the next thing you know you have Anarchism.

But not the "pretty" Anarchism of the RevLeft boards--but rather the kind found in the Congo with people killing, raping and maiming each other constantly and indiscriminately.

Truth is that while human being are indeed rational creatures, they are not ration all of the time or in every particular circumstance. There are times when human beings by their nature are quite irrational--and you need an impartial source of restraint and authority to see that people don't hurt themselves and others.

That's what the police SHOULD do. Now I full understand that in Capitalist societies they have been used for more nefarious ends--but I think in a Communist society that their roles could be defined to a more useful and helpful purpose.

[RGacky3]

And then that guy's friends would take some guns and knives and find you, and then your friend's would get some hatches and axes and find them and then....and the next thing you know you have Anarchism.

But not the "pretty" Anarchism of the RevLeft boards--but rather the kind found in the Congo with people killing, raping and maiming each other constantly and indiscriminately.

What he described was'nt Anarchism at all, its vigilanteism, he's describing a senario IN THIS SOCIETY NOW, where he chose not to use the police.

In an Anarchist society, you would'nt need to get a stick, because there would be democratic institutions to take care of car theft.

Whats in the Congo is not Anarchism, because because a government is'nt official does'nt mean its not there, an army controling an area is not anarchism.

[Holden Caulfield]

can somebody answer my post :(

[Bud Struggle]

In an Anarchist society, you would'nt need to get a stick, because there would be democratic institutions to take care of car theft. And a police force to enforce the decisions of the democratic institutions?

[NecroCommie]

Well, I guess you could call anyhing police if it just stops car thefts, but is it really? You are arguing semanics.

[Bud Struggle]

Well, I guess you could call anyhing police if it just stops car thefts, but is it really? You are arguing semanics.

Then what IS a police force if it isn't an organization of people that enforce the will of society by force if necessary? The Nazis had one type of police force, the Soviets had another and the Americans have yet another. I assume the Communist/Anatchists would have another.

The police force of a country reflects exactly the politics of that country.

[RGacky3]

Then what IS a police force if it isn't an organization of people that enforce the will of society by force if necessary? The Nazis had one type of police force, the Soviets had another and the Americans have yet another. I assume the Communist/Anatchists would have another.

The police force of a country reflects exactly the politics of that country.

I agree, however in an anarchist society that organization or democratic institution, or whatever, would look so significantly different from what he have now or what the Nazis/Soviets had it can barely be called a police force.

[Bud Struggle]

I agree, however in an anarchist society that organization or democratic institution, or whatever, would look so significantly different from what he have now or what the Nazis/Soviets had it can barely be called a police force.


Actually what a Communist or Anarchist police force would look like to everyone is exactly what the present police force looks like to the Bourgeoise right now. :D

[Demogorgon]

The police aren't evil.
If I hear somebody down stairs at night I'm not going to ring the SWP i tell you that.

Societies are not 'black and white' and capitalist institutions aren't inherently evil, nor are the people in them.

Would you similarly refuse to use the NHS because its basically used to keep the work force healthy for exploitation?

The person who started the thread is probably not a comrade, but the answers given are hardly sufficient to his point.There is a lot of truth to this. I especially dislike the fact that people here aren't necessarily making thought out criticisms of the police but rather throwing around slogans about "the pigs". You can't help getting the impression that they are getting mixed up between being a petty criminal and being a radical.

That being said, there are some serious problems with the police as an institution at present. A tendency towards favouring certain groups to put it charitably as well as the fact that it is often filled with bullies.

That is not an excuse for some of the silly rhetoric we see here though, we need to be more grown up in our criticism.

[graffic]

Fuck them.

Precisely the sort of attitude that is counter - productive and just makes you look incredibly immature and naive.

Fuck capitalism, fuck illegal wars, but I don't judge people who join the police force to earn a living to support their family and "help their community". Surely the vast majority of police work is done with good intentions, at least in western nations, other than being heavy handed at a few protests I find no reason to "hate" or "fuck over" the police force.

[Holden Caulfield]

I think that this thread shows alot of what is wrong with so called 'anarchists' who come across as little more than teenage rebels who don't live in the real world

[AntifaAustralia]

I think that this thread shows alot of what is wrong with so called 'anarchists' who come across as little more than teenage rebels who don't live in the real world

You dont need to break it to them that harsh. LMAO:laugh: or perhaps it was fine as it was.

we certainly came a long way from the start of this convo, where the Anarchists with the ideology of anarchism over ran the show with their ideas.

I've noticed that a lot of those young punk rock lovers turn into anarchists through their music, and of course other situations that lead them to like that kind of music and their human intelligences.

and then there are them lame ass history lovers.

the anarchist punk and anti-police cultures aren't that bad, it creates better people out of them eventually, well after they clash with pacifist socialists/communists and/or the end of adolescence.

[yuon]

I think that this thread shows alot of what is wrong with so called 'anarchists' who come across as little more than teenage rebels who don't live in the real world

I think this post shows a lot about you. I haven't read all the posts in this thread, the topic, what appears to be a successful troll, isn't of a large amount of interest to me just now.

However, I do know that there have been a lot of threads on police and anarchist society.

Here's one:
http://www.revleft.com/vb/law-enforcement-stateless-t118905/index.html?t=118905
From that thread I linked to three more possible threads of interest:

http://www.revleft.com/vb/workers-militia-t108496/index.html
http://www.revleft.com/vb/police-anarchist-society-t70732/index.html
http://www.revleft.com/vb/police-anarchist-society-t64367/index.html
:cool::glare:

So, it certainly looks like anarchists are capable of discussing police in a calm, reasonable manner, and rejecting the notion of police in an anarchist society, with logical and rational argument.

So, why do some people get a bit pissed off with police in the current society? Maybe because they are fucking filth who have never done any good for those people?

If I were a poor black US citizen living in a slum in the outskirts of a major US city, there is no fucking way I would call the police in the even I was robbed. I'm not, but still the encounters I've had with police have been generally negative. From being arrested at demos for no reason, to being chased down the street, harassed for being in the wrong area at the wrong time, being patronised, insult, manhandled, what good things can I say about the police?

So, fuck the police.

[yuon]

Oh, and AntifaAustralia, that's a really patronising post as well.

it creates better people out of them eventually
Right...

Anarchism is the only viable political ideology that consistently argues and calls for freedom every step of the way. It rejects the notion that the "means justify the ends" which has been shown to fuck up any revolution. It rejects the notion of centralisation, which has been shown to prevent a class-less state-less society coming about. It rejects a lot of bullshit promoted by so called Marxists.

It also rejects the notion of police, because they are a danger to a free and just society. Police work for the ruling classes, and where their exist a body of armed people, with the power to enforce the "law", but no ruling class, a ruling class will emerge from the people that control the police (or even just the police!).

Fuck the police.

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

Part of the reason why people hate the police is because of the way they have no sense of priorities , turn a blind eye on some things and have non stop campaigns against others.

For instance within the past two months the local gang has bought/rented/squatted a house in my road from which to sell drugs from and presumably store the drugs and probably knives , guns and ammo. Where are the wonderful police our saviours , oh yes harassing me and my mates for drinking underaged.

You may think having armed little shits down my road ready to "protect their turf" while inviting all the junkies to the area (which if anyone removed from reality is wondering means that things such as break ins will go up) would encourge the police to move, nope too many people swearing in public , drinking socially and dropping litter to contend with trival matters such as drug gangs.

[Holden Caulfield]

I think this post shows a lot about you


Good, let people know I live in reality, when anarchist slogans against the police come down to 'fuck them' I can't even be bothered to discuss it.

People have been harassed by coppers, coppers have harassed me (albeit not to any intolerable degree) and my friends/comrade, coppers have done shit all in my community yet patrolled posh areas, police have fucked us all over on demos, smashed picketers and generally been total ****s for as long as I care to mention.

However, they still play a role in capitalist society and always will as long as we live in a capitalists society.

How would you deal with football violence, as I asked before, how would phorensic work be done by local community groups, how would criminals be tracked around the country when they escape justice, who would you call at 1 in the morning when somebody breaks into your house.

[ls]

However, they still play a role in capitalist society and always will as long as we live in a capitalists society.

Yes, like some others have said before, it's not an old gang slogan of "we'lll never cooperate with the police ever no matter what". If a worker has a burglar in their home for instance, calling the police can't just be condemned, of course I'd recommend some kind of self-defense for the worker in question rather than relying on inadequate police defense


How would you deal with football violence

Completely differently imo. It's probably not a simple subject, but really with firms and the like, if old proud grown adults want to go and proudly beat each other senseless in a backstreet away from the public then what's the point in stopping them? As for the violence in communities, that can be stopped by channelling people directly from all the stations straight to the football ground and by having community patrols stopping violence from getting out of hand in crowded places, as for football itself, if it wasn't a Capitalist enterprise I'm sure people's attitudes would be very different too.

Preventative crime is very important after all, you can't do much but suppress crime by just having patrols and the like, that's just the second layer. People themselves are the most vital ingredient of it, some of the worst hit neighbourhoods in London for burglaries had their crime go down by forming neighbourhood watch committees for example.


as I asked before, how would phorensic work be done by local community groups, how would criminals be tracked around the country when they escape justice, who would you call at 1 in the morning when somebody breaks into your house.

As it is, the police is federated into subdivisions you know locally and the like, I don't see why community defense groups wouldn't share information on a bigger level if they needed to as part of a federation of some sort, that's how it works currently. Remember that in the USA, the police bureaucracy is massive despite them having a police force, it makes little difference whether it has "federative" in name or not.

[SocialPhilosophy]

Is it ok for them to tell me that I cannot own a gun for self-defense?

[No. You really cannot own a gun at all?]

Is it ok for them to tell me that I cannot put certain substances in my body?

[No. Except for meth. You cannot put meth in your body because it will eventually turn you into a piece of fecal material.]

Is it okay for them to tell me that I can't ride a car without a seatbelt?

[I want to say no, but there are actually studies showing that failure to wear seatbelts can cause you to lose control of the vehicle.]

Is it okay for them to tell me that I can't copy copyrighted material?
[No, unless you plan to distribute it to others. Then it's okay to stop you.]

why?

[Because if I sweated over my Great American Novel, I am entitled to the fruit of my labor. You aren't.]

You really have too many laws in Europe. You should emigrate to Canada or the USA. Preferably the USA, because, as our moderator says, we have better beer than you guys and we do not heat it up before we serve it.

YOU DO WHAT TO BEER BEFORE SERVING IT!?!?!? :crying:

[Robert]

YOU DO WHAT TO BEER BEFORE SERVING IT!?!?!? :crying:

It's true, man. Before they serve you a beer in England, they heat it up so it's nice and warm! Yum, right? I haven't seen them do this, but every beer I have had in the UK has been warmer than the air in the room, so I deduce that they warm it before they serve me. Or maybe they're trying to get me to leave.:lol:

Actually, this is an old joke between me and the moderator, who has already forgotten it I imagine. But it's not a compleat joke, as I honestly have never had a sufficiently chilled beer in the UK. They think beer is more flavorful at room temp, which I have to admit it really is, but damnation, it's just un-American to heat beer, so they shouldn't do it.

[Demogorgon]

It's true, man. Before they serve you a beer in England, they heat it up so it's nice and warm! Yum, right? I haven't seen them do this, but every beer I have had in the UK has been warmer than the air in the room, so I deduce that they warm it before they serve me. Or maybe they're trying to get me to leave.:lol:

Actually, this is an old joke between me and the moderator, who has already forgotten it I imagine. But it's not a compleat joke, as I honestly have never had a sufficiently chilled beer in the UK. They think beer is more flavorful at room temp, which I have to admit it really is, but damnation, it's just un-American to heat beer, so they shouldn't do it.
I've never know beer to be actually heated apart from speciality beers, but you do realise that ale is not meant to be as cold as lager?

If you want cold beer make sure you order lager.

Of course ale is generally better, but I would not expect Americans to appreciate good beer.

[Robert]

I've never know beer to be actually heated

I'll take you to a few pubs next time I'm over there. You'll see. It's the only possible explanation.


I would not expect Americans to appreciate good beer.

Don't be nation-ist, Demo. It's most un-egalitarian.

[Demogorgon]

Well you know how American beer and sex in a canoe are the same, don't you?

Anyway the English do have a thing for "warm beer", but it isn't heated apart from in special circumstances (very specialist beers), typically they will go off quickly if you do that after all. Rather they will be served somewhat below room temperature but not refrigerated or whatever.

Like I say though, if you don't like it, order lager, it isn't served like that, though the kind they serve in most pubs is pretty poor. You generally have to go to pubs that specialise in European lager for good lager.

I have something of a passion for beer.

[Demogorgon]

Perhaps to explain things a bit better I should clarify that the brewing process of lager and ale is different. Lager is bottom fermenting and (in the case of the real stuff) brewed over a considerable amount of time at a low temperature. This means its natural state is pretty much at refrigerated level. A pub will therefore provide it very cold. Of course that is wasted on mass produced rubbish, but never mind.

Ale on the other hand is top fermenting and brewed at a faster pace at a higher temperature. This means once it is ready, in the case of the cask stuff (bottled ale is normally kept at a lower temperature so again you could always ask for bottled stuff if you want it colder), it will be put in the barrel and stored in cool but not cold premises and be pumped into the glass by hand rather than through a modern tap. That provides the best quality.

For mass produced crap, it will be filtered, pasturised and refrigerated to make it last. But that removes most of the taste.

[Robert]

Anyway the English do have a thing for "warm beer"Right. Well, that was harder than pulling teeth, but I'm glad to have brought you around at last.


An American pub will therefore provide it very cold.Oh, you've actually been to the states then?

Thanks for the tutorial on ale versus lager. We'll blindfold you when we meet someday and serve you several glasses of several different beers. With your educated and refined palate, you'll no doubt be able to tell us which is which.

(Don't any of the mods blame me for the beer detour on this thread. I was offering up some original thoughts on police brutality in a Kapitalist state when Demogorgon started criticising American beer.)

[Demogorgon]

We'll blindfold you when we meet someday and serve you several glasses of several different beers. With your educated and refined palate, you'll no doubt be able to tell us which is which.

I certainly will be able to! Though I have to say that people mock beer snobs but fail to realise that anyone can at least tell good beer from bad beer. I mean you don't have to be into fine eating to tell fillet steak from a McDonald's burger, do you?

[Jazzratt]

Honestly I would rather have an ale that, for whatever reason, has snuck up above room temperature than try to force icy pisswater down my throat.

[Ele'ill]

Also, study this image attentively:

http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/1849/20090926copprissues.png


I studied this image attentively and the flaw is that a college kid with a back pack wouldn't have tags OR registration.

[Havet]

the flaw is that a college kid with a back pack wouldn't have tags OR registration.

Why you say that?

[Robert]

Mari3L misunderstood the cop. The suspect kid is either walking or on a bicycle. The driver cop will stay in car and check license plates on passing cars to see if they're up to date while other cop interrogates the kid.

Don't you guys ever watch "Car 54 Where Are You?"

[Bud Struggle]

Don't you guys ever watch "Car 54 Where Are You?"

Tutti!

I think these guys missed that one by about 40 years! :D