Israeli youths reject army call-up [Archive]

Andropov

13th October 2009, 16:01

More than 80 Israeli students have announced their refusal to serve in the Israeli military because of what they call their nation's track-record of oppression in the occupied territories.

The conscientious objectors issued a letter declaring their determination not to join up during a news conference in Tel Aviv in protest against the government's policies towards Gaza and the West Bank.

"We cannot ignore the truth - the occupation is a violent, racist, inhumane, illegal, undemocratic, immoral and an extreme condition that presents a mortal danger to both peoples," the letter read.

"We, who were educated on the values of liberty, justice, honesty and peace, cannot accept it."

It was signed by 84 high school students.

Four of the signatories at the news conference on Monday said they were aware that refusing to enlist would land them in jail, but noted that they were acting out of loyalty to their values and those of the society they live in.

"We were born into the reality of the occupation and many in our generation see it as something 'natural'," Or Ben-David, a 19-year-old from Jerusalem, said.

Ben-David is legally obliged to join the army at the beginning of November.

"But I opened my eyes to what was around me and became critical of the Israeli society. I visited in the West Bank and met with Palestinians, it changed my view of things."

Jail sentence

When asked whether she would do a different kind of public service, another refusenik - Amelia Marcovich - said she considered public service and volunteering to be a lifelong activity and not just something that you do for two or three years because you have to.

"I hope that sitting in jail won't dampen my desire to contribute to the society and that I'll keep on volunteering afterward," she said.

Another objector, Effie Brenner, a student, said he is refusing against his parent's wishes. "My parents reacted really badly when I told them I wouldn't join the army. They threatened to kick me out of house," he said.

Nevertheless, he said it was easier to do three years of military service than to stand up and make a statement and even sit in prison for what you believe in.

"One of the reasons I refuse to join is because I want the Palestinians to know that not all Israelis are in favour of the occupation and that some people are willing to make a sacrifice to end it," Brenner said.

"Palestinians who have heard of what I'm doing have expressed thanks and encouragement."

Brenner said the group had already employed legal representation and they were ready to face the military trials awaiting them.

Similar letters have been publicised over the years by high school seniors slated to enlist ever since the first one was written in 1979.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2009/10/2009101373851115553.htmlas

Andropov

13th October 2009, 16:02

Ive got great admiration for Israelis that take such a path.
Its brave to accept willing isolation from your society and your family.

MarxistLeninistMaoistTrot

13th October 2009, 16:15

it lights the dark of this prison cell
it thunders forth its might
it is the undauntable thought my friend
that thought that says im right

Andropov

13th October 2009, 16:18

it lights the dark of this prison cell
it thunders forth its might
it is the undauntable thought my friend
that thought that says im right
Cracking quote, I think ill rob that.

Anaximander

13th October 2009, 16:36

Intriguing. Good luck to all of them. I'd like to write one of them (or all of them) a letter. Any way I could get information about that?

Stranger Than Paradise

13th October 2009, 16:39

Solidarity to them. How long will this land them in jail in Israel?

LeftBackAgain

13th October 2009, 16:50

Wow that is really a brave and stand up thing to do. I've never agreed with compulsory participation in the military.

MarxistLeninistMaoistTrot

13th October 2009, 18:45

well i nicked it off bobby sands so you are well within your rights to steal it off me:)

Pirate turtle the 11th

13th October 2009, 19:24

Those kids have serious guts.

cb9's_unity

13th October 2009, 20:22

Those students are clearly anti-Semitic holocaust deniers.

(/sarcasm)

gorillafuck

13th October 2009, 20:53

This is really inspiring, I admire those kids.

Demogorgon

13th October 2009, 21:30

That kind of courage is truly admirable. Refusing to serve in the Israeli army is never easy and often brings a lot of social stigma in addition to legal consequences, so those doing it are truly making a major sacrifice.

Axle

13th October 2009, 22:22

Good luck to them, and I hope young Israelis like this aren't a minority.

Dóchas

13th October 2009, 22:28

man bring on the domino effect!!! this is amazing news!!!! is there any way we can help them out?

#FF0000

13th October 2009, 22:54

Crux

13th October 2009, 23:58

This is encouraging news. I know most of our israeli comrades in the CWI have been to prison for refusing to enlist or refusing deployment on occupyed territory. Hopefully this is just signs for what's coming ahead. Anyway, more power to them.

14th October 2009, 00:04

I sort of had a feeling (maybe I was just hoping) that most young Israelis were far more progressive than the generations before them. If that's the case I'm sure we'll be seeing more of this in the future. Just a little crack is all it takes to break a dam.

Unfortunately most of the information I've gotten indicates that the younger generation is further right than the older ones. While I certainly hope the anti-occupation sentiment spreads, we can't assume that one group of refuseniks is representative of an entire generation.

MarxistLeninistMaoistTrot

14th October 2009, 00:34

Those students are clearly anti-Semitic holocaust deniers.

(/sarcasm)

I am sure everyone finds you hillarious.
Way to trivialise what these young people have done.

DesertShark

14th October 2009, 00:34

They are prime examples of what this world needs more of: individuals taking responsibility for their own actions and recognizing how their choices effect others

Yehuda Stern

14th October 2009, 01:23

I sort of had a feeling (maybe I was just hoping) that most young Israelis were far more progressive than the generations before them.

I can give first hand advice that, like Apikoros says, this is actually the exact opposite of the truth. Like the writers of the fascist counter-letter said, "they're 80, we're 80,000." For every semi-progressive Israeli Jew there are about a 1000 reactionaries waiting to take arms against the Palestinians at every chance.

Given that, the actions of these young people are all the more admirable, and of course the ISL applauds them and will join in any movement to defend their rights against the Zionist state.

NecroCommie

14th October 2009, 16:43

Well done comrades! This is a good thing in any country, but Israeli army is especially heinous, and especially brutal towards objectors.

Uncle Ho

14th October 2009, 20:18

While I applaud the sentiment, these young people will change nothing.

They're only one step above the sign wavers, really.

cb9's_unity

14th October 2009, 21:23

While I applaud the sentiment, these young people will change nothing.

They're only one step above the sign wavers, really.

sign wavers don't go to jail.

RedDragon

14th October 2009, 21:46

While I applaud the sentiment, these young people will change nothing.

They're only one step above the sign wavers, really.
That's not really fair, what they have done is a very ballsy thing, they've stood up for what they believe in knowing they will end up in jail for it. I think this puts them more than just 'one step above sign wavers.' I say good luck to them and may this be the start of something bigger.

TheCultofAbeLincoln

15th October 2009, 03:12

Wow that's gotta take balls.

Bravo! Solidarity forever!

15th October 2009, 04:06

They are heroes tbh.

Let's hope this is the real beginning of a complete anti-capitalist wave throughout most Israeli youth.

Also:
man bring on the domino effect!!! this is amazing news!!!! is there any way we can help them out?

No replies? Anyone got any place to send letters or anything like that? :)

Crux

15th October 2009, 05:44

While I applaud the sentiment, these young people will change nothing.

They're only one step above the sign wavers, really.
So you applaud their sentiment but basicly think what they are doing is pointless? Nice.

Uncle Ho

15th October 2009, 14:21

So you applaud their sentiment but basicly think what they are doing is pointless? Nice.

Yes, their hearts are in the right place, but they seemingly lack the conviction to enact any real social changes.

khad

15th October 2009, 14:41

Yes, their hearts are in the right place, but they seemingly lack the conviction to enact any real social changes.
What the hell would your ass be doing, then?

Stalin 2

15th October 2009, 14:54

While I applaud the sentiment, these young people will change nothing.

They're only one step above the sign wavers, really.

You are clearly one of those so called revolutionaries who only think acts of violence can progress our cause.
If these brave people make one single isreali youth think about how isreal occupies its neighbors and is itself an illegitimate state then they will have made a great difference.

Uncle Ho

15th October 2009, 19:13

What the hell would your ass be doing, then?

I would leap at the chance to join the Israeli army. Free weapons and training you could turn on your commanders.

You are clearly one of those so called revolutionaries who only think acts of violence can progress our cause.
If these brave people make one single isreali youth think about how isreal occupies its neighbors and is itself an illegitimate state then they will have made a great difference.

Meanwhile, the people of Palestine alternate between starving to death and being burned by white phosphorus.

Rjevan

15th October 2009, 21:45

"We cannot ignore the truth - the occupation is a violent, racist, inhumane, illegal, undemocratic, immoral and an extreme condition that presents a mortal danger to both peoples," the letter read.

"We, who were educated on the values of liberty, justice, honesty and peace, cannot accept it."

It was signed by 84 high school students.

Four of the signatories at the news conference on Monday said they were aware that refusing to enlist would land them in jail, but noted that they were acting out of loyalty to their values and those of the society they live in.

Wow, this is incredible, I am deeply impressed and those students have my highest respect and admiration!
Solidarity, good luck and all the best to all of them!

Stranger Than Paradise

15th October 2009, 21:46

I would leap at the chance to join the Israeli army. Free weapons and training you could turn on your commanders.

Well then you are not living in the real world. So much braver to shoot at innocent Palestinians. How can you simply turn on your commanders. All Capitalist armies will put you in a strict program of indoctrination. Altough you might not believe what they tell you, you better believe almost everyone else will.

Wanted Man

15th October 2009, 22:22

I would leap at the chance to join the Israeli army. Free weapons and training you could turn on your commanders.

So we can assume that you did join the army of your country to get free weapons and training, go to Iraq/Afghanistan and frag your CO? :rolleyes:

Pirate Utopian

15th October 2009, 22:36

Meanwhile, the people of Palestine alternate between starving to death and being burned by white phosphorus.
By the people that did join the Israeli army, you spineless git.

Orange Juche

15th October 2009, 23:19

Those students are clearly anti-Semitic holocaust deniers.

(/sarcasm)

Haha you beat me to it.

Uncle Ho

16th October 2009, 01:08

By the people that did join the Israeli army, you spineless git.

Yes, I am sure that the loss of 4 men will totally cripple the IDF and end the occupation of Palestine.

You all need to look back in history. Not one time has the proletariat achieved freedom without violence against their oppressors, and never will they. It simply cannot happen, especially for people in such a dire situation as the Palestinians.

Anything else is a meaningless half measure, and any effort not spent either fighting or preparing for an armed revolution is effort wasted. Palestine does not have the time for gestures and protests.

Pirate Utopian

16th October 2009, 01:18

Yes, I am sure that the loss of 4 men will totally cripple the IDF and end the occupation of Palestine.

You all need to look back in history. Not one time has the bourgeoisie achieved freedom without violence against their oppressors, and never will they. It simply cannot happen, especially for people in such a dire situation as the Palestinians.

Anything else is a meaningless half measure, and any effort not spent either fighting or preparing for an armed revolution is effort wasted. Palestine does not have the time for gestures and protests.
Nobody claimed this will end the occupation, you tit. But what they do is alot more respectable than joining the army and backing it.

You are also a fucking hypocrite for calling these students delusional while your big idea is joining the army for fighting techniques and then fragging your commander.

Crux

16th October 2009, 01:19

Yes, I am sure that the loss of 4 men will totally cripple the IDF and end the occupation of Palestine.

You all need to look back in history. Not one time has the bourgeoisie achieved freedom without violence against their oppressors, and never will they. It simply cannot happen, especially for people in such a dire situation as the Palestinians.

Anything else is a meaningless half measure, and any effort not spent either fighting or preparing for an armed revolution is effort wasted. Palestine does not have the time for gestures and protests."Preparing for revolution" is not the same thing as going out and buying arms. Well, at least to Marxists it isn't. You'd do well to learn that.

Uncle Ho

16th October 2009, 01:32

I'm sure your skill with sandwich board and extensive reading of "The Anarchist's Cookbook" will be a great help to the ultimate revolution of the Proletariat.

Nobody claimed this will end the occupation, you tit. But what they do is alot more respectable than joining the army and backing it.

You are also a fucking hypocrite for calling these students delusional while your big idea is joining the army for fighting techniques and then fragging your commander.

Yes, their refusal to actively kill Palestinians, instead standing by and doing nothing to prevent their genocide is better than soiling their hands with blood.

However, you could also say syphilis is "better" than AIDS. I still wouldn't want either.

Pirate Utopian

16th October 2009, 02:10

Yes, their refusal to actively kill Palestinians, instead standing by and doing nothing to prevent their genocide is better than soiling their hands with blood.

However, you could also say syphilis is "better" than AIDS. I still wouldn't want either.
That makes absolutely no fucking sense.
If they go around bombing and shooting they'll just get killed.
You're talking RAF/Weather Underground type stuff, but that wont work if you dont got the people behind you as history shows.

Israel is a very reactionary society, most people arent on your side if you are revolutionary and playing urban guerrilla isnt going to improve it much.

I dont mind if they do kill some pigs and shit, but it's not smart for now.

Uncle Ho

16th October 2009, 02:29

Pirate Utopian

16th October 2009, 02:54

I'm not talking about Palestina, I'm talking about Israel.

Revy

16th October 2009, 03:01

The Shministim are "standing by and doing nothing"? Military service in the IDF is mandatory for all youths. They are being imprisoned for their protest.

pNjggLhQo6w

16th October 2009, 03:21

They have every person in Palestine behind them, not to mention Arab Israelis. The Palestinians have been beaten into a coma, but they need only a good jolt to rise up and fight back as they once did.

It just so happens that rifles make a nice jolt when fired, especially when they're hitting fascists.

Convenient, isn't it?

What reaction could possibly phase the Palestinians? They're already starving. They're already watching their children die and seeing their schools bombed with white phosphorus. They truly have nothing left to lose but their chains. I cannot understand the mentality of those who face their imminent death silently. Never before in history have a people suffered so greatly and done so little to stop it.

You're sitting comfortably in your home, ragging on people who have actually made a personal sacrifice - however symbolic - for which they will face social ridicule and isolation and a probable prison sentence. You're correct that this one action does not change the situation for the Palestinians. What you don't seem to understand is that one IDF soldier turning on his or her commander would be equally ineffective in changing the situation for the Palestinians, though it would be certain suicide, which you seem to regard with some sort of absurd romanticism.
But then, it requires little effort to heap scorn on others who have made personal sacrifices for their principles.
Convenient, isn't it?

gorillafuck

16th October 2009, 03:24

I'm sure your skill with sandwich board and extensive reading of "The Anarchist's Cookbook" will be a great help to the ultimate revolution of the Proletariat.
So people should just go with the flow and join the army until there's a revolution?

Btw, the Anarchist Cookbook comment didn't make much sense. These youth took a sacrifice that will land them in jail for the sake of not murdering Palestinians. That book is about how to hotwire cars and be a terrorist who's bombs don't go off.

Uncle Ho

16th October 2009, 03:31

The Shministim are "standing by and doing nothing"? Military service in the IDF is mandatory for all youths. They are being imprisoned for their protest.

pNjggLhQo6w

And while they sit in jail, making their little statement, Israel will continue it's genocide of the Palestinian people without any lapse.

You're sitting comfortably in your home, ragging on people who have actually made a personal sacrifice - however symbolic - for which they will face social ridicule and isolation and a probable prison sentence. You're correct that this one action does not change the situation for the Palestinians. What you don't seem to understand is that one IDF soldier turning on his or her commander would be equally ineffective in changing the situation for the Palestinians, though it would be certain suicide, which you seem to regard with some sort of absurd romanticism.
But then, it requires little effort to heap scorn on others who have made personal sacrifices for their principles.
Convenient, isn't it?

I'm only sitting at home now because I cannot walk after suffering a seriously broken ankle at a protest in Whiteclay, NE. We were finally successful in at least temporarily shutting down the liqour stores there that prey on the Native Americans. I was already injured and I will most likely be arrested soon, but such are the sacrifices we must make for change to be enacted. I stopped fearing arrest after the 3rd time, when I realized that the racist administrators of this state desire nothing less than the total extermination of all it's Native peoples. If the Natives chose to take up arms once more, I would be there beside them, one one leg if necessary.

We will never change the world with talk and gestures. We will change it only with action. I have no doubt that many told Ho Chi Minh his struggle was futile and suicidal.

So people should just go with the flow and join the army until there's a revolution?

Btw, the Anarchist Cookbook comment didn't make much sense. These youth took a sacrifice that will land them in jail for the sake of not murdering Palestinians. That book is about how to hotwire cars and be a terrorist who's bombs don't go off.

No. We fight. We fight now and we continue fighting until we are all dead or we have no cause left to fight for.

Anything less is a half-measure.

gorillafuck

16th October 2009, 03:53

No. We fight. We fight now and we continue fighting until we are all dead or we have no cause left to fight for.

Anything less is a half-measure.
There's not a chance of a revolution within Israel right now. And your idea about joining and turning on your commander would end up with Palestinians in no better situation, and you'd be dead.

Socialists should never fetishize violence in non-revolutionary situations.

Uncle Ho

16th October 2009, 03:56

There is no chance because people refuse to stand up. You see/saw the same in other occupied nations. No one ever bothered to fight in Vietnam until Ho, no one in Cuba until Castro, but when they did, the fury of the people dethroned their oppressors every time.

The Palestinian minority is large and heavily oppressed, perhaps more than any other people in modern history. If they had not been disarmed by Western Liberals and their Imperialist doctrine, they would still be resisting and making headway.

As it is, they are doomed to meet their end with nothing more than a whimper.

gorillafuck

16th October 2009, 04:00

Revy

16th October 2009, 04:02

Uncle Ho

16th October 2009, 04:06

Those were mass movements. You seem to be suggesting that we should all be like the RAF or Weather Underground, who's tactics failed.

The people of occupied Palestine have every opportunity to form another mass movement, and they squander it because western bourgeoisie tell them it is morally wrong to defend their very existence.

Then why are you telling us? Go to Palestine and tell them, be their Messiah like you want to be, since you clearly have a very condescending attitude accusing them of doing nothing. As you said "No one ever bothered to fight in Vietnam until Ho."

Even if I was allowed to leave this country and had the resources to do so, the struggle for Palestinian freedom must come from Palestine, not from America. If they do not decide to stand up and resist, no amount of cajoling by any foreigner can convince them to do so.

Crux

16th October 2009, 04:08

Revy

16th October 2009, 04:13

Uh the fuck? You are in desperate need of some history lessons, comrade. And maybe some basic marxist theory as opposed to the neo-blanquist nonsense you are spouting now.

Yep, more nonsensical worship of "leadership". Reminds me of the Avakianites...Bob Avakian is the leadership we have blah blah. the struggle of classes and movements is totally discounted in favor of the historical theory of the great individual rising up and merely taking everyone else along for the ride.

Uncle Ho

16th October 2009, 04:19

Yep, more nonsensical worship of "leadership". Reminds me of the Avakianites...Bob Avakian is the leadership we have blah blah. the struggle of classes and movements is totally discounted in favor of the historical theory of the great individual rising up and merely taking everyone else along for the ride.

You ignore the pragmatic truths of revolution. Someone must direct campaigns. Someone must administer affairs. Someone must speak for those who have no voice. Someone must inspire their hearts and steel their resolve.

The grand communal spirit of the Proletariat is not, unfortunately, much of a military commander, administrator or speech writer. It does not matter if it is one person or a council of many, revolutions without strong leadership will always fail.

mykittyhasaboner

16th October 2009, 04:58

There is no chance because people refuse to stand up.
I'm sorry but this a crude generalization. First, we aren't advocating that "people" stand up, rather members of the exploited classes; and second plenty of people in fact do "stand up". Whether their efforts don't meet your ridiculous standards is totally beside the point. According to you, if revolutionaries fail to make a difference, its just a waste of time. This kind of view of class struggle (depending on whether you actually understand class conflict) is incorrect and counter-productive.

You see/saw the same in other occupied nations. No one ever bothered to fight in Vietnam until Ho, no one in Cuba until Castro, but when they did, the fury of the people dethroned their oppressors every time.Wow, what a load of crap. Single individuals, no matter how influential, can't amount for what your saying. It took entire movements and struggles of entire classes to wage war against the French, Americans, and their collaborators in Vietnam, as with Cuba.

The Palestinian minority is largeWhat?

and heavily oppressed, perhaps more than any other people in modern history. If they had not been disarmed by Western Liberals and their Imperialist doctrine, they would still be resisting and making headway.They still are resisting, even Israelis are, THAT'S THE WHOLE FUCKING POINT OF THIS THREAD.

As it is, they are doomed to meet their end with nothing more than a whimper.You seem to have such contempt for people who resist yet fail. Despicable.

Uncle Ho

16th October 2009, 05:35

I'm sorry but this a crude generalization. First, we aren't advocating that "people" stand up, rather members of the exploited classes; and second plenty of people in fact do "stand up". Whether their efforts don't meet your ridiculous standards is totally beside the point. According to you, if revolutionaries fail to make a difference, its just a waste of time. This kind of view of class struggle (depending on whether you actually understand class conflict) is incorrect and counter-productive.

Quite on the contrary, I applaud all those who try to make a difference.

However, waving a sign or making a little gesture will not ever make a difference. This struggle cannot be won by bourgeoisie kids sitting in jail cells, as much as we would like it to be.

Wow, what a load of crap. Single individuals, no matter how influential, can amount for what your saying. It took entire movements and struggles of entire classes to wage war against the French, Americans, and their collaborators in Vietnam, as with Cuba. Yes, and these people will just rise up, without anyone directing their campaigns, and somehow spontaneously figure out how to defeat the second most powerful military on this earth.

I'm sure the Merkava tanks will explode at the mere sight of the unarmed and untrained people united against them.

Unless that explosion is just their guns cutting the rudderless people down as they scramble to throw a few rocks, of course.

They still are resisting, even Israelis are, THAT'S THE WHOLE FUCKING POINT OF THIS THREAD. Resistance is not giving a brave speech as you are cut down.

Resistance is cutting them down before they get to you.

You seem to have such contempt for people who resist yet fail. Despicable.No, I have contempt for people who dilute what could be real liberation movements with half-measures.

16th October 2009, 05:41

No, I have contempt for people who dilute what could be real liberation movements with half-measures.

If there was a completely coherent real liberation movement in Israel or in Palestine today, things would not be nearly as bad.

Stranger Than Paradise

16th October 2009, 07:45

No, I have contempt for people who dilute what could be real liberation movements with half-measures.

What fucking half-measures? What are you talking about. What could they be doing? Your fantasy of joining the Israeli army and revolting against the CO's is just that, a fantasy. These people are showing actual resistance, no they're not a revolution on their own are they but they are doing the right thing standing up against the Israeli state. Joining the army and betraying your beliefs is cowardly.

Of course, all of us here know this act alone does not make a revolution and no one is saying it does but it is as you say an example of REAL STRUGGLE.

Crux

16th October 2009, 08:56

Quite on the contrary, I applaud all those who try to make a difference.

However, waving a sign or making a little gesture will not ever make a difference. This struggle cannot be won by bourgeoisie kids sitting in jail cells, as much as we would like it to be.

Yes, and these people will just rise up, without anyone directing their campaigns, and somehow spontaneously figure out how to defeat the second most powerful military on this earth.

I'm sure the Merkava tanks will explode at the mere sight of the unarmed and untrained people united against them.

Unless that explosion is just their guns cutting the rudderless people down as they scramble to throw a few rocks, of course.

Resistance is not giving a brave speech as you are cut down.

Resistance is cutting them down before they get to you.

No, I have contempt for people who dilute what could be real liberation movements with half-measures.
Pray tell, how are they "diluting" anything?
The working class is not just a potential military force, it is a social class, as such it is more effective than any small group of armed individuals could ever be.

Niccolò Rossi

16th October 2009, 11:47

Given that, the actions of these young people are all the more admirable, and of course the ISL applauds them and will join in any movement to defend their rights against the Zionist state.

I wonder if you could clarify this a little further. The line of the LRP toward conscription is "'No draft' is no answer (http://www.lrp-cofi.org/PR/draftPR73.html)". From 'The Real Anti-War Scandal (http://www.lrp-cofi.org/PR/antiwarPR38.html)', Proletarian Revolution no. 38 (1991):
"As to conscientious objection, the Marxist view has always been that pacifism in any form is a poison for the working class. (See the LRP's pamphlet, 'No Draft' Is No Answer!) Working-class youth need to learn the use of guns and other weapons -- not to fight in the bourgeoisie's wars but to defend their own class in the class struggle. We oppose all capitalist armies and will volunteer for none. But when drafted for imperialist wars, communists and other class-conscious fighters take their turn with their fellow workers and use the opportunity to proselytize and organize in the armed forces for the defeat of imperialism.

[...]

"While we defend anti-war soldiers who risk jail... we argue against this strategy and against conscientious objection. Here too it is working-class youth, who cannot afford the job risks that come with CO status, who remain to do the fighting.

[...]

"As well, pacifism is no way to fight imperialism. Opposition to the war recruited on pacifist grounds will be part of the problem, not the solution, as the state turns up the patriotic pressure to deepen exploitation and class war intensifies."

mykittyhasaboner

16th October 2009, 17:19

Quite on the contrary, I applaud all those who try to make a difference.
Well you haven't done so in this thread, you've done nothing but criticize people's methods of resistance from an outlandish perspective.

However, waving a sign or making a little gesture will not ever make a difference. This struggle cannot be won by bourgeoisie kids sitting in jail cells, as much as we would like it to be.
Oh for fucks sake are you really that thick?

There is ground to be gained using non-violent tactics, as is with violent ones. Obviously you fail to understand this.

Yes, and these people will just rise up, without anyone directing their campaigns, and somehow spontaneously figure out how to defeat the second most powerful military on this earth.
Look, I didn't say anything about spontaneity, so stop it right there, you've done enough misconstruing in this thread. All I said was that Ho or Fidel are single individuals, and do not hold together mass struggles like some deity.

I'm sure the Merkava tanks will explode at the mere sight of the unarmed and untrained people united against them.

Unless that explosion is just their guns cutting the rudderless people down as they scramble to throw a few rocks, of course.
Why don't you actually say something that is of value instead of rambling on like an idiot?

Resistance is not giving a brave speech as you are cut down.

Resistance is cutting them down before they get to you.

What a horrible and innacurate definition of resistance.

No, I have contempt for people who dilute what could be real liberation movements with half-measures.
This is pathetic. I doubt you are leading a glorious effort to overthrow capitalism, so your activity must be some diluted half measures as well.

Uncle Ho

16th October 2009, 18:20

Well you haven't done so in this thread, you've done nothing but criticize people's methods of resistance from an outlandish perspective.

No, I've criticized people who are not resisting in any meaningful way yet pretend they are great liberation heroes.

Oh for fucks sake are you really that thick?

There is ground to be gained using non-violent tactics, as is with violent ones. Obviously you fail to understand this. Yes, I fail to understand this because it is not true, as has been demonstrated countless times in history.

Non-violence is the greatest poison which the bourgeoisie has ever administered to the Proletariat, and it is the primary reason why the left has no legs anymore. There is one and only one way you will ever achieve a new social order, and that is from the barrel of a gun.

You've taken their bait and now you're on their hook. There's still time to get off, but you're going to need a rifle to do it.

Look, I didn't say anything about spontaneity, so stop it right there, you've done enough misconstruing in this thread. All I said was that Ho or Fidel are single individuals, and do not hold together mass struggles like some deity. And do you think the people of Vietnam could have defeated 3 straight imperial forces, two of which are easily some of the mightiest armed forces ever assembled with no leaders?

Do you think the Imperial Japanese and American armed forces would have simply backed down seeing the raised fists of the proletariat?

It didn't have to be Ho or Fidel, but it had to be someone. The ghost of Marx can't lead military campaigns.

Why don't you actually say something that is of value instead of rambling on like an idiot?You really have no understanding of how dire the situation is in Palestine, do you? Tanks gunning down protesters is not hyperbole, it is reality for the Palestinian people.

What a horrible and innacurate definition of resistance.As opposed to yours, which seems to be: "sit around and enjoy the incredible privilege afforded to me by the destruction of billions of lives while occasionally waving a sign or making a pathetic, half hearted gesture that I know will change nothing in the hope that I can be arrested and photographed for extra "leftist" street cred"

This is pathetic. I doubt you are leading a glorious effort to overthrow capitalism, so your activity must be some diluted half measures as well.We do quite a lot of activism on the rez, actually. It would help if people like you would actually do something useful instead of namedropping Leonard Peltier or sending us 12 cases of lima beans.

Then again, real activism is hard, and might force you to give up some of the bourgeois lifestyle you take for granted.

Stranger Than Paradise

16th October 2009, 18:27

Non-violence is the greatest poison which the bourgeoisie has ever administered to the Proletariat, and it is the primary reason why the left has no legs anymore. There is one and only one way you will ever achieve a new social order, and that is from the barrel of a gun.

Do you really think it's viable for this group of students to take up arms and fight against the army? Class consciousness isn't at a high enough level for a revolution to occur in Israel. And I don't understand why you think every form of resistance is violent? The act of revolution is violent but we can't have a revolution until we have sufficent support amongst our class, this point has not been reached.

Obviously I believe in armed revolution but by your definition of bravery and proper resistace workers on strike are also cowards because they are not violently revolting against their bosses and claiming the means of production. Quite frankly your claims are insulting.

Uncle Ho

16th October 2009, 18:40

Do you really think it's viable for this group of students to take up arms and fight against the army? Class consciousness isn't at a high enough level for a revolution to occur in Israel.

And what about the Palestinians and other Israeli Arab people? You know, those same people who have been resisting for years until they were destroyed by western liberals. The same people who truly have nothing left to loose but their chains.

It was not the French or Japanese who fought in Vietnam, not the whites in South Africa or the American South. It was the oppressed people.

Are you trying to say that you should not ever fight unless you have master's consent?

And I don't understand why you think every form of resistance is violent? The act of revolution is violent but we can't have a revolution until we have sufficent support amongst our class, this point has not been reached.

Yes, and we are not the Palestinians. They face a much different situation.

Obviously I believe in armed revolution but by your definition of bravery and proper resistace workers on strike are also cowards because they are not violently revolting against their bosses and claiming the means of production. Quite frankly your claims are insulting.

I would say that the reason unions have so little power now is because they refuse to fight, as well. They are too scared to give up the tiny concessions they have gained, so they sit on their haunches and watch as they are taken away.

Crux

16th October 2009, 18:46

Then again, real activism is hard, and might force you to give up some of the bourgeois lifestyle you take for granted.
Drop your holier than thou attitude, it makes for bad arguments. And I have been arrested, but charges were dropped, after taking part in an illegal union blockade. Quite a few of the comrades have been attacked by fascists lately, with iron rods, bricks and knifes. And this is only in sweden, I could mention Pakistan, where three comrades and one contact got shot to death last year, or sri lanka where the comrades are under constant death threats from both the government and fascist thugs and where the eladership of our organization has been forced into exile.
But sadly none of these things make an argument in itself. So just drop it.

Stranger Than Paradise

16th October 2009, 18:47

Honestly I do not understand at all the first two points you have made in your most recent post.

Crux

16th October 2009, 18:59

About the workingclass?

cb9's_unity

16th October 2009, 19:11

The debate in this thread is clearly going to go nowhere as both sides already have stated their basic, unmovable beliefs. One group believes active resistance is progressive, useful, and should be applauded. They understand a small group of students refusing military service will not result in immediate revolution. However socialism/anti-imperialism seem far off in Israel no matter what any group does right now. Accepting the current conditions of Israel, one must also accept that figures of inspiration must emerge to lead as example to future generation of progressive Israeli's. This is not sign waving, this is not without repercussions, these students are using the jail time and social alienation they will receive as a platform to propagate anti-imperialism. A mass movement can not exist without forerunners.

However there is also one idealist here who seems to claim that any action that doesn't directly result in the overthrow of the bourgeois Israeli government or Imperialist sentiment within the country to not be trivial. He seems to think that guns and military training are the most important aspect of revolution, ignoring that without the acceptance of progressive ideas those guns and training will either lay silent or be drowned out by the guns fired by imperialists and reactionaries.

You can go frag your CO, but while the population still holds reactionary beliefs they will view it as nothing more than murder, and the ideas you present later will be viewed as nothing more than the idea's of a murderer.

Il Medico

16th October 2009, 19:33

^This

Also, I must say I applaud the efforts of these kids. I hope we'd have enough courage to do the same in their situation.

Yehuda Stern

16th October 2009, 22:49

Niccolo: I am actually writing a document on this question. Briefly, the PMP is meant to carry the class struggle into the military, and in a situation in which we do not expect most of the working class to turn against the bourgeois state the PMP makes little sense.

As for Uncle Ho, I'm going to bet he's not about to join the army in the state where he lives and frag his officers. He's obviously not going to go fight in Palestine, because that "must come from Palestine" itself; how convenient. So all this rhetoric is just nonsense from a coward who lectures brave young people from the safety of the internet.