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Q
12th October 2009, 14:31
Paul Cockshott had an interesting article in this week's Weekly Worker (http://www.cpgb.org.uk/worker/788/democracyor.php). It argues in a clear way against elections and for the random chosing of officials out of the population. It also argues against the republic as an goal in itself. Have a read:


Democracy or oligarchy?

http://www.cpgb.org.uk/worker/788/images/democracyor.jpg
Paul Cockshott critiques Mike Macnair’s Revolutionary strategy and argues for a rethink on the question of a democratic republic

Mike Macnair of the Communist Party of Great Britain has recently written a book whose avowed aim is to reformulate left strategy along Kautskyan lines. One might say: surely this is a retrograde step politically. But in a sense a movement towards Kautskyism would be an advance for the ‘official communist’ movement.

Macnair distinguishes between the Kautskyan trend and the right wing in social democracy. Besides, recalling how much of orthodox Leninism is actually Kautskyism second hand, Macnair makes the very accurate observation that:

“The coalitionist policy of the right wing of the Second International has been, since 1945, the policy of Second International socialists and ‘official communists’ alike. The substantive difference between them, before first Eurocommunism and then the fall of the USSR, was that ‘official communists’ proposed for each country a socialist-liberal coalition that would commit to geopolitical formal neutrality, combined with friendly relations with the Soviet bloc. With the Soviet sheet anchor gone, the majority of the former ‘official communists’ are at best disoriented, and at worst form the right wing of governing coalitions (as is the case with the ex- communists and ex-fellow-travellers within the Labour Party in Britain).”

A key discriminating feature of the Kautskyan tendency was its opposition to coalitions with bourgeois parties and an insistence that it would only enter into government when it had the requisite majority to rule unaided. In this sense then, a move to Kautskyism would amount to a considerable radicalisation of the communists in Europe.

So the book is significant. I will argue, however, that it is marked by a failure to go beyond certain fatal limits of classical social democracy, and also by a failure to have any positive theory of socialism.

This lack of a theory of socialism is first evident in the non-treatment of the history of the USSR and China, and later in a failure to spell out what sort of economy the socialist movement should be fighting for.

On the first point Macnair writes: “Under the Soviet-style bureaucratic regimes there was no objective tendency towards independentself-organisation of the working class. Rather, there were episodic explosions; but to the extent that thebureaucracy did not succeed in putting a political cap on these, they tended towards a pro-capitalistdevelopment. The strategic line of a worker revolution against the bureaucracy - whether it was called‘political revolution’, as it was by the orthodox Trotskyists, or ‘social revolution’ by state-capitalism andbureaucratic-collectivism theorists - lacked a material basis.”

He extends the argument to apply to orthodox Stalinists, who have to explain why the real Stalinists were not able to organise opposition to the restoration of capitalism. This is an interesting observation, but it has two drawbacks:

1. Its focus is exclusively on the USSR and eastern Europe post-World War II. It ignores the experience of China during the cultural revolution and, if Getty and others are to be believed,2 the experience of the great purges. There was working class participation there. Did this arise from an “objective tendency”?

2. It could be a council of despair. The abolition of private capitalism is bound to remove the old class struggle between labour and capital over profits. If such trade union struggle is a precondition of class-consciousness, then socialism is bound to remove that class-consciousness - whether it is bureaucratic socialism or not. What then is to be the social basis of resistance to capitalist restoration?

Macnair argues with respect to the USSR: “What happened instead was to render concrete the 1850s warnings of Marx and Engels against the premature seizure of power in Germany, which formed thebasis of Kautsky’s caution in the 1890s and 1900s. By choosing to represent the peasantry and other petty proprietors (especially state bureaucrats), the workers’ party disabled itself from representing the working class, but instead became a sort of collective Bonaparte.

“The Bolshevik leaders could see and feel it happening to themselves, and in 1919-23 the Comintern flailed around with a succession of short-lived strategic concepts, each of which would - it was hoped - break the isolation of the revolution. These strategic concepts are not simply rendered obsolete by the collapse of the USSR in 1991. The fate of the other socialist countries also proves them to be a strategic blind alley.This was, of course, like the argument of Kautsky during the 20s. Is it valid to say that the CPs represented petty proprietors when in power?”

Well, there is some truth in it to the extent that, so long as petty peasant production existed, it created wings within the CPs which defended its interest: Bukharin, Gomulka, Deng. But these were just one wing, and in most cases they did not come out on top. In the USSR private peasant agriculture was largely eliminated by collectivisation. And during the 50s and 60s, state farms expanded at the expense even of collectives. In Poland after 1956 the pro-petty proprietor wing did come out on top, but that was not generally the case. In the German Democratic Republic, Czechoslovakia and Bulgaria, state or collective agriculture was the rule. The crisis of the socialist system, Poland aside, was not generally precipitated by the demands of petty proprietors in agriculture and the identification of state bureaucrats with petty proprietors is an unconvincing throwaway phrase, not justified by any argument.

Coalition

Macnair writes: “The policy of reform through coalition governments thus entails (a) the displacement of thedownswing of the business cycle onto the weaker states and their firms and populations; and (b) thedisplacement of the social polarisation which capitalism produces onto polarisation between nations. Onthe one hand, this gives the reformists’ negative claims their credibility: reforms are actually achieved andsocial polarisation is reduced in the successful states. On the other, the reformists necessarily committhemselves to sustaining and managing an imperial military force.”
This may be true of Germany, the UK or USA, but what of Sweden? It is an unsafe generalisation.

Macnair continues: “At the point of global war between the great powers, the illusory character of the policy of reformthrough coalition government becomes transparent. All that maintains the reformists are mass fear of theconsequences of military defeat and direct support from the state in the form of repression of their left opponents. Thus both 1914-18 and 1939-45 produced major weakening of the reform policy within theworkers’ movement and the growth of alternatives. In the event, after 1945 the destruction of Britishworld hegemony enabled a new long phase of growth, and reformism was able to revive. We are now onthe road to another collapse of reformist politics ... but what is lacking is a strategically plausiblealternative.”

While the point above is sound, Macnair then attacks the slogan, ‘All power to the soviets’: “But ‘All power to the soviets’ was also illusory in another sense. Even before they withered away into mere fronts for the Russian Communist Party, the soviets did not function like parliaments or governments - or even the Paris Commune - in continuous session. They met discontinuously, with executive committees managing their affairs. Though the Bolsheviks took power in the name of the soviets, in reality the central all-Russia coordination of the soviets was provided by the political parties - Mensheviks and SRs, and later Bolsheviks. It was Sovnarkom, the government formed by the Bolsheviks and initially including some of their allies, and its ability to reach out through the Bolshevik Party as a national organisation, which solved the crisis of authority affecting Russia in 1917.
“The point is simply that the problem of decision-making authority is not solved by the creation of workers’ councils arising out of a mass strike movement. Hence, the problem of institutional forms which will make authority answerable to the masses needs to be addressed in some way other than fetishism of the mass strike and the workers’ councils.”

Macnair says that the Kautskyan centre opposed the left on the grounds that if the workers’ party already had a majority then a mass strike would be pointless, whereas taking power after a strike whilst in a minority would be elitist and minoritarian. Against the right they argued that taking part in a coalition would saddle the workers party with responsibility for the measures taken by their middle class allies, which, like as not, would be hostile to the working class. He sums up the strategy of the centre as:
“When we have a majority, we will form a government and implement the whole minimum programme; if necessary, the possession of a majority will give us legitimacy to coerce the capitalist/pro-capitalist and petty bourgeois minority. Implementing the whole minimum programme will prevent the state in the future serving as an instrument of the capitalist class and allow the class struggle to progress on terrain more favourable to the working class.”

The state

He criticises the positions of the late Engels on the state as insufficient. Engels had argued that one had to fight for a democratic republic in order for a peaceful transition to socialism by electoral means to be possible - giving the UK and USA as examples of where this might occur. Macnair argues that Engels missed the essence of the bourgeois state form:

“The inner secret of the capitalist state form is not bourgeois democracy. Rather, it has three elements: 1. the rule of law - ie, the judicial power; 2. the deficit financing of the state through organised financial markets; and 3. the fact that capital rules, not through a single state, but through an international state system, of which each national state is merely a part.”
This seems a little idiosyncratic, particularly point 2. True, states often do use deficit financing, and indeed one can argue that the growth in the money supply necessary for the circuit M-C-M’ can often occur this way. But why is deficit finance the key? Surely the power to tax is more important than that, and in particular, the power to levy taxes in money rather than in kind. Along with this goes the right to issue money.
The acceptability of state-issued money, and the ability to raise deficit finance, both in the end depend upon the power to tax. Without tax revenues, there would be no way to pay the interest on the national debt, and without the obligation to pay taxes in domestic currency, there would be not ability to issue money that was generally acceptable.

Why too does he miss out the monopoly of armed force held by the state, the existence of a standing army, and salaried police? Why does he not mention the parliamentary state as the characteristic constitutional form of civil society?

Macnair presents an interesting critique of residual nationalist traits in the writings of Marx and Engels. These are, of course, particularly marked in the late Engels, where certain Jacobin patriotic themes exist, which at a later date could provide a cover for the SPD voting to support World War I. Macnair argues plausibly that these derive in the end from the theme of the Communist manifesto that the proletariat of each country must first of all settle matters with its own bourgeoisie.

Macnair summarises Lenin’s line on revolutionary defeatism, but argues that it was the specific character of the Great War that made it an effective strategy. Had it been a quick German victory like 1870, it would have had no purchase; and indeed, had Germany been fighting a defensive war on German soil, then Engels’ advocacy of a defencist policy would have been vindicated. He also argues that the defeatist policy could never have made headway or been appropriate in the conditions of World War II. The defeatist strategy could only work if it was applied generally in all the belligerent powers. This presupposed an international and the possibility of a generalised revolutionary crisis.

Although this did not occur, Macnair believes that the defeatist strategy was right because it was based on an important truth about the state. The key point was that the power of the state rests on the coherence of the army. An unjust and terrible war offers the chance that, by defeatist propaganda in the armed forces, one may disrupt the main coercive power of the state and thus overthrow the rule of the old dominant class.

Macnair argues that it was a mistake of the old Second International not to have taken seriously Engels’ advocacy of democratic republican measures like universal military training, a militia and the right to bear arms. They should also have argued that the army ranks should have freedom of political speech and the right to organise in political parties and trade unions. This would have created conditions favourable to opposition to an imperialist war and, although Macnair does not mention this, it would also have created conditions favourable to preventing military putsches.

Democratic republic

Mike Macnair writes: “The key is to replace the illusory idea of ‘All power to the soviets’ and the empty one of ‘All power to the Communist Party’ with the original Marxist idea of the undiluted democratic republic, or extreme democracy, as the form of the dictatorship of the proletariat ... The present task of communists/socialists is therefore not to fight for an alternative government. It is to fight to build an alternative opposition: one which commits itself unambiguously to self-emancipation of the working class through extreme democracy, as opposed to all the loyalist parties.”

This is superficially correct - certainly in impetus it goes in the right direction. But it contains real ambiguities which only become evident when he lists his demands. When he does, then Macnair makes a complete hash of it and shows that his conceptions of political democracy have completely failed to break free from bourgeois republicanism.

But I am going to quibble here and argue that the phrase ‘democratic republic’ is wrong from the start. It couples two quite different ancient models - those of Athens and those of Rome; state forms which are radically distinct in terms of the degree of popular power that they permitted. The republic is Rome reborn; it is senatorial power; it is presidential power (the first magistrate), the political form of the dominant imperial state. It is no accident that the slave-owning classes of the USA adopted a republican constitution which took Rome as its model. The social democratic movement should, in republics like the USA, Germany and France, be seeking to overthrow the republican constitution and replace it with democracy. In bourgeois monarchies like Britain, Sweden or Holland to raise the slogan of republicanism rather than going straight for democracy, places you no further left than radical liberals.

What does Macnair give as the political measures necessary to achieve this “extreme democracy”?


universal military training and service, democratic political and trade union rights within the military and the right to keep and bear arms;
election and recallability of all public officials; public officials to be on an average skilled worker’s wage;
abolition of official secrecy laws and of private rights of copyright and confidentiality;
self-government in the localities: ie, the removal of powers of central government control and patronage and abolition of judicial review of the decisions of elected bodies;
abolition of constitutional guarantees of the rights of private property and freedom of trade.

What is striking about this is what it omits. How are political decisions to be reached in this “extreme democracy”?

Since Macnair says nothing new about this, he accepts the pretensions of parliamentary government to be democratic. But, once he does that, he has sold the pass. He is accepting the basic structure of the bourgeois state designed by Hamilton and Madison in which the people do not rule, but are given at least the illusion of influence by being able to choose which of their betters will rule over them. The federalists knew their classical political theory and they understood that in establishing a state of this form in the USA they were not establishing a democracy, but a republic. They had read their Aristotle and understood well enough that election was an anti-democratic principle:

“There is a third mode, in which something is borrowed from the oligarchical and something from the democratical principle. For example, the appointment of magistrates by lot is thought to be democratical, and the election of them oligarchical; democratical again when there is no property qualification, oligarchical when there is. In the aristocratical or constitutional state, one element will be taken from each - from oligarchy the principle of electing to offices, from democracy the disregard of qualification. Such are the various modes of combination.”3

The federalists aimed at this “aristocratical” or constitutional state, which was oligarchic in essence but had certain trappings of democracy. In practice, of course, the removal of the property qualification came later, but the key issue was election. Initially bourgeois states had property qualifications for voting and these could later be relaxed, but the principle of election was retained.

It was quite clear from classical political theory that election was an oligarchic or aristocratic principle. It involved the deliberate selection of the ‘best’ people, the aristoi, to high office. And who are our ‘betters’ but the upper classes, the more educated, the more wealthy, etc. Any system of election is inherently biased against the lower classes and favours the upper classes. Elections are inherently oligarchic and elitist.

Aristotle also writes: “… as an oligarchy is said to be a government of men of family, fortune and education; so, on the contrary, a democracy is a government in the hands of men of no birth, indigent circumstances, and mechanical employments.”4

Look at the USA, the UK or Germany. Do they have government by those of indigent circumstance and mechanical employment? Clearly not. Or do they have government made up of those of family, fortune and education? Clearly they do. So they, like all bourgeois states, are oligarchies, not democracies.

The relabelling of the ancient oligarchic state form as ‘democracy’, was the single greatest intellectual counterfeit of the bourgeois epoch. Both Kautsky and Macnair have unquestioningly accepted the counterfeit at face value. They end up supporting oligarchy rather than democracy.

In contrast to the oligarchic form of government, Aristotle summarised the essential components of democracy:


that all the magistrates should be chosen out of all the people, and all to command each, and each in his turn all;
that all the magistrates should be chosen by lot, except to those offices only which required some particular knowledge and skill;
that no census,5 or a very small one, should be required to qualify a man for any office;
that none should be in the same employment twice,6 or very few, and very seldom, except in the army;
that all their appointments should be limited to a very short time, or at least as many as possible;
that the whole community should be qualified to judge in all causes whatsoever, let the object be ever so extensive, ever so interesting, or of ever so high a nature; as at Athens, where the people at large judge the magistrates when they come out of office, and decide concerning public affairs as well as private contracts;
that the supreme power should be in the public assembly; and that no magistrate should be allowed any discretionary power but in a few instances, and of no consequence to public business.7

Aristotle was by no means an advocate of democracy, but he attempted to provide a relatively objective description of the then available constitutional forms. His Politics provided the menu from which the classically educated founders of the US constitution placed their orders. What Aristotle was describing above is not “extreme democracy”. No. He was listing the minimal conditions for a state to be called a democracy at all.

The key principle is that, instead of being elected, public officials are chosen from the general public like a jury. Aristotle argues that in democracies the best form of magistracy, or executive, is a council. If magistrates are chosen by lot, they will be untrained and lack specialist knowledge of government, but if there is a group of them, they will collectively be wiser and more competent than any one individual. There is a wisdom in crowds, for the collective will contain people with many different skills and experiences.8

In a modern oligarchy like France, Britain or the USA, what Aristotle called the magistracy is elected. In these elections those with education and money have a huge advantage. The election process is expensive - there are the costs of advertising and campaigning. Historically, in Europe at least, workers’ parties have been able to partly get round this by collecting dues from hundreds of thousands or millions of members. But when standing candidates they usually face the hostility of the privately owned mass media, which is hard to offset.

They are also under pressure to present candidates who are far from being “of indigent circumstances and mechanical employments”. Their first generation of leaders may be of that sort: Ramsay MacDonald or Lula. But later they attempt to present candidates who are educated and polished: Obamas and Blairs. In consequence the elected representatives of popular parties tend to be from higher classes than their supporters. They tend, in consequence, to be markedly cautious in implementing the full rigour of a socialist programme when in office.

Democratic selection by lot suffers none of these disadvantages. It guarantees that the assembly will be dominated by the working classes. It guarantees that the assembly will be balanced in terms of sex, age, ethnic origin, etc. As such it would constitute the most favourable possible grounds for achieving a majority for socialism. If Macnair really wanted to follow the logic of the working class party being the most consistent advocate of democracy, what he should be demanding is:


the replacement of all parliaments, councils, assemblies and quangos by juries drawn randomly from the population;
the right of initiative and referendum, with taxes and the budget to be submitted to popular vote;9 declarations of war only by popular vote;
full political rights, including the right to elect officers in the armed forces;
abolition of the judiciary and magistracy; juries to be supreme in courts; no loss of liberty without jury trial.

Infuriating

One of the most interesting parts of Macnair’s book is his treatment of the history of internationalism. He is a strong advocate of the need for an international, but is very critical of the Third and Fourth.

The Third International is criticised for its bureaucratic military command structure, which, he claims, would only have been justified in the event of a general revolutionary civil war across Europe in the 1920s. Failing that, it suppressed local initiative and the horizontal links that real internationalism required. Macnair devotes a perhaps excessive critical attention to the Trotskyite international, in view of the latter’s limited influence.

He still sees the need for a new international but cautions: “It should be apparent that the objective political conditions do not yet exist for such a struggle. But they do exist for continental united struggles for political power, which fight for continental unification: a Communist Party of Europe, a Pan-African Communist Party, and so on. A dynamic towards the continental unification of politics is already visible in bourgeois politics, not just in Europe, and in the Latin American Chávista Bolivarians. It is even present in an utterly deformed and reactionary manner in the Islamist movement in the Middle East.”

In general what is infuriating about reading Macnair, is that, although his heart and impulses are in the right place, he remains dogmatically hidebound by a particular set of historical exemplars. It is clear that his programmatic repertoire is drawn almost exclusively from the Erfurt Programme and the first programmes of the RSDLP. So, although he advocates the struggle for democracy and although he says that we must oppose parliamentary constitutionalism, the only significant constitutional measure he proposes - the right of recall, is far too feeble for the task. People will not make democratic revolution if the main objective is just the right to recall MPs.10
If you want a democratic revolution, you would have to be intransigently opposed to the underlying elitist principle on which the existing system is based.

You would have to constantly challenge the legitimacy of an elected parliament. Your victorious candidates would have to follow the example of Irish republicans in refusing to attend and thus add legitimacy to the elected parliament. You might consider the Irish republican policy of combining legal with illegal struggle.

You would have to organise mass civil disobedience to unjust laws, as we in Scotland did to Thatcher’s poll tax.

You would have to oppose the will of parliaments to the will of the peoples by using tactics like the local referendum that we used to block the Tory attempt to privatise water in Scotland.

You would have to look to the Chartists or Covenanters’ organisation of monster petitions for change. But they should be claims of right, not petitions, since the latter concede legitimacy to those from whom one is petitioning.

You should be demanding a constitutional convention drawn by lot from the population to redefine the state structure.

You should be educating party members in the goals of revolutionary democracy, so that if such bodies drawn by lot come into existence, then any party members who randomly find themselves allotted can come to play a leading role in the citizens’ jury. The party members would have to be prepared to argue intransigently in a constitutional convention for the most radical and egalitarian structures.

You would have to be prepared, at time of major crisis or political scandal, for the people themselves to take the initiative in forming such a convention drawn by lot.

You would have to argue in the trade union movement that only by raising labour’s goals above the economic to the political could labour be free.
Within the labour movement you would have to be arguing for the abolition of the wages system in concrete practical terms, explaining the relatively simple steps that a democratic assembly could take to achieve these goals. The struggle over wages and conditions is not enough, but to abolish the wages system we must first win the battle of democracy.
http://www.cpgb.org.uk/images/mailto_button.gif ([email protected]?subject=/worker/788/democracyor.php) Respond to this article ([email protected]?subject=/worker/788/democracyor.php)
Notes

This article condenses arguments formulated at greater length in P Cockshott, ‘Ideas of leadership and democracy’, prepared for the second meeting of El Bloque Regional de Poder Popular in Barquisimeto in February 2009: see www.socialismoxxi.org/lecturas%20imprescindibles.htm (http://www.socialismoxxi.org/lecturas%20imprescindibles.htm) and reality.gn.apc.org/polemic/leadershipconcepts.pdf (http://reality.gn.apc.org/polemic/leadershipconcepts.pdf)
JA Getty Origins of the great purges: the Soviet Communist Party reconsidered, 1933-1938. Cambridge 1985.
My emphasis, Aristotle Politics book 4, part 9.
Aristotle Politics book 6, part 2.
This means property qualification.
This means public office. Nobody should hold the same public office twice.
Aristotle Politics book 6, part 2.
See J Surowiecki, MP Silverman et al ‘The wisdom of crowds’ American Journal of Physics 75: 190, 2007.
It is notable that when the right of initiative was advocated by the left in the SPD in the 1890s Kautsky opposed it: see the account in M Salvadori Karl Kautsky and the socialist revolution, 1880-1938 London 1990. Now, popular votes can be easily and securely organised using telephones (see WP Cockshott, K Renaud, ‘HandiVote: simple, anonymous and auditable electronic voting’ Journal of Information Technology and Politics 6 (1): 60-80, 2009.
Indeed Gordon Brown is reportedly planning to introduce the right of recall of MPs either before the next election or as an election pledge. It will be of some use in challenging obviously corrupt or incompetent MPs, but will hardly change the character of the political system.

Die Neue Zeit
12th October 2009, 15:54
The PDF containing the original critique can be found here:

http://reality.gn.apc.org/polemic/notesonmcnair.pdf

Q
12th October 2009, 17:19
I was thinking "maybe it's a good idea to print Politics from Aristotle", but the thing is around 150 pages A4 :scared:

Not quite something you just print :D

Die Neue Zeit
13th October 2009, 03:46
I limited my quotations of Aristotle to these:

“I mean, for example, that it is thought to be democratic for the offices to be assigned by lot, for them to be elected oligarchic, and democratic for them not to have a property-qualification, oligarchic to have one; therefore it is aristocratic and constitutional to take one feature from one form and the other from the other, from oligarchy that offices are to be elected, and from democracy that this is not to be on a property-qualification.”

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0058&query=bekker%20line%3D%23175

"Democracy is when there is a majority of free, poor men who have authority to rule, while oligarchy is when it is in the hands of the wealthy and well-born, who are a minority.”

It's a tragedy that Marx's reading of Aristotle was too selective. He knew the second quote by heart when praising the Paris Commune, but not the first. :(

noway
13th October 2009, 09:47
good one....

Q
20th October 2009, 06:39
It is rather sad this thread didn't get the discussion it deserved in my opinion. This text can have quite far reaching implications on how we, as communists, think about democracy.

Let me begin to name the normal demands on democracy which are pretty dominant in the left today and are considered logical to a certain extent. These are:
- All representatives are chosen.
- All representatives on a workers' wage.
- Recall of all representatives by those who choose them.
- Any representative can only be re-elected a limited number of times.
- A limited time for the mandate (a few months to a year).

Now, the very first point is being questioned here. The point of choosing all representatives is of course to break with the aristocratic appointment, so in that sense it is a step forward. But as we saw in the Soviet Union and in fact pretty much anywhere where there is a election system in place, it has little to do with democracy and a new ruling clique jumps into power. In the case of the Bolsheviks most were murdered in the 1930's after the bureaucracy consolidated power.

So, if we instead defend appointment by lottery of representatives as opposed to electing them, in addition to a limited mandate, under permanent recall and on a normal workers wage (the point about having the same office for a number of times becomes moot), that does solve the whole problem of a new caste of bureaucrats rising to power as opposed to working class self-rule.

But this leaves the question of the revolutionary party. If we are to accept the lottery as a fundamental democratic principle (as opposed to election which is a fundamental oligarchic principle), then what exactly is the role of a communist party post-revolution? It is obvious that a democracy-by-lottery is incompatible with parties having office. Furthermore, what does this mean for the inner organisation of the revolutionary party if all positions of organisational responsibility (for example the central committee) are appointed by lottery?

I have some ideas about those, but will leave those questions open to trigger discussion.

Saorsa
20th October 2009, 10:35
- Any representative can only be re-elected a limited number of times.

I'd disagree with this. If a representative is chosen by his or her peers fifty times then why shouldn't they represent them each of those times?

Q
20th October 2009, 10:48
I'd disagree with this. If a representative is chosen by his or her peers fifty times then why shouldn't they represent them each of those times?
It is to avoid the formation of a clique, but that particular point is rather irrelevant as the core issue is election versus lottery. If we are to accept lottery as a democratic mechanism to get new officials then the chance of having the same officials on the same position twice is negligible if we talk about large populations.

So, forget that point really as any focus on it is rather off topic.

Tower of Bebel
20th October 2009, 11:07
I'd disagree with this. If a representative is chosen by his or her peers fifty times then why shouldn't they represent them each of those times?
Elections cannot be controled by large groups of people. Bourgeois freedoms don't suffice, and that's what the article is all about. In fact, the only way that milions of people can be relatively sure that they control (to restrain; as opposed to the mere electoralist, emptied notion of control: to trust) the candidates during elections is through selection by lot and other guarantees like term limits.

NecroCommie
20th October 2009, 12:25
A fine article, and I agree to a great extenct, but!... I would certainly add the ban of private means of production, and granting the democratic officials ultimate power over economy too. It might be that aristotele saw this too, but it is vital to point this during this bourgeois time when economy and politics are viewed as seperate fields. Democratic power of the masses must be extended to economy as well, or it is not democratic at all, or power for that matter either.

Also, I don't know if aristotle mentioned wages for the officials or if the article was just written with monetary system in mind, but it is clear to me that money has no place in the final communism. I resent it even in the idea of socialism. Even so if officials have the pay "of a skilled worker" I think it is stretching it. Why skilled worker? In my oppnion rulers should have no advantages at all! Average workers pay will do just fine.

I also have nightmares about officials deciding about things they know nothing about. Needless to say if the officials work in any sensible and responsible way they listen to the experts, but just for the sake of argument lets say they decide not to. Let's say some town has completely democratic board deciding the fate of... say, nuclear waste? And just for the lulz they are about to dump it in the town water supply during the night when no-one is there to object. Should there be some forceful use of experts or what?

I know I know, with the public proceeding and the power to withdraw officials this is unlikely, but I just want to hear oppinions. Besides, there's alot critizism here despite the fact that I'm all for it. I just feel the need to elaborate.

Paul Cockshott
20th October 2009, 13:03
It is rather sad this thread didn't get the discussion it deserved in my opinion. This text can have quite far reaching implications on how we, as communists, think about democracy.


Now, the very first point is being questioned here. The point of choosing all representatives is of course to break with the aristocratic appointment, so in that sense it is a step forward. But as we saw in the Soviet Union and in fact pretty much anywhere where there is a election system in place, it has little to do with democracy and a new ruling clique jumps into power. In the case of the Bolsheviks most were murdered in the 1930's after the bureaucracy consolidated power.

I argue in my article on leadership concepts ( on the Reality web page http://reality.gn.apc.org/polemic/) that this process of clique formation had occurred much earlier than that, and was inherent in the mechanism of the soviets which worked on indirect election.



So, if we instead defend appointment by lottery of representatives as opposed to electing them, in addition to a limited mandate, under permanent recall and on a normal workers wage (the point about having the same office for a number of times becomes moot), that does solve the whole problem of a new caste of bureaucrats rising to power as opposed to working class self-rule.
That is certainly the aim. It was a position a number of us in Scotland arrived at in the early 80s after reflecting on events in China during the 70s. ( see the poster I put up on my album )



But this leaves the question of the revolutionary party. If we are to accept the lottery as a fundamental democratic principle (as opposed to election which is a fundamental oligarchic principle), then what exactly is the role of a communist party post-revolution? It is obvious that a democracy-by-lottery is incompatible with parties having office. Furthermore, what does this mean for the inner organisation of the revolutionary party if all positions of organisational responsibility (for example the central committee) are appointed by lottery?

I have some ideas about those, but will leave those questions open to trigger discussion.
These are very important issues.

Election was retained in the ancient democracies for millitary officers who were elected by the troops. It was regarded that in this case it was important to have a person with technical military skills.

There is a loose relationship between this and political party leadership. The danger of having election internally in a political party is that the elected leadership of the party is likely to agitate for the watering down of the principle of direct democracy in the party programme. Experience of the SPD in the 1890s or the german Greens in the 1990s seems to back this up.

Perhaps the solution is to have a mixed constitution for the leading body of the party, 2/3 by lot, 1/3 by election.

Paul Cockshott
20th October 2009, 13:11
A fine article, and I agree to a great extenct, but!... I would certainly add the ban of private means of production, and granting the democratic officials ultimate power over economy too. It might be that aristotele saw this too, but it is vital to point this during this bourgeois time when economy and politics are viewed as seperate fields. Democratic power of the masses must be extended to economy as well, or it is not democratic at all, or power for that matter either.
For some idea of the method by which the economic transtion might come about see

http://21stcenturysocialism.blogspot.com/2007/09/venezuela-and-new-socialism.html

some of this was adopted by the Regional Block of Popular Power in the spring
http://www.lademocracia.es/Declaracion-de-Barquisimeto




Also, I don't know if aristotle mentioned wages for the officials or if the article was just written with monetary system in mind, but it is clear to me that money has no place in the final communism. I resent it even in the idea of socialism. Even so if officials have the pay "of a skilled worker" I think it is stretching it. Why skilled worker? In my oppnion rulers should have no advantages at all! Average workers pay will do just fine.

One has to have a practical series of steps to move away from a monetary economy without causing massive economic dislocation however.




I also have nightmares about officials deciding about things they know nothing about. Needless to say if the officials work in any sensible and responsible way they listen to the experts, but just for the sake of argument lets say they decide not to. Let's say some town has completely democratic board deciding the fate of... say, nuclear waste? And just for the lulz they are about to dump it in the town water supply during the night when no-one is there to object. Should there be some forceful use of experts or what?

I know I know, with the public proceeding and the power to withdraw officials this is unlikely, but I just want to hear oppinions. Besides, there's alot critizism here despite the fact that I'm all for it. I just feel the need to elaborate.


This is the point about the wisdom of crowds. It is scientifically demonstrable ( read the book Wisdom of Crowds ) that a large group of non experts will make decisions as good as or better than one expert.

cyu
20th October 2009, 19:13
The standard anarchist response would be, "Why have representatives at all? Why can't we do it ourselves?"

Of course, there would be times when people want something, but are too busy (or not specialized enough) to do it. Let's say everyone wanted pizza, so they delegate the task of producing pizza to a chef. The chef does not have the power to give them a turkey instead - he is just delegated the power to decide how much tomato sauce to use, the oven temperature, etc. The chef is no more able to "represent" the electorate than anybody else in deciding driving qualifications. He is judged according to the pizza he produced - if it's not good enough, then he is replaced.

If the electorate wanted to delegate the day to day organization of implementing some policy to a single individual, they can do that if they want to. However, this person's power is limited only to the extent to which he is carrying out the policy delegated to him. His performance in his job is judged accordingly by the electorate.

If there are many members of the electorate that don't feel like voting on all the issues they don't think are important, then they simply don't vote. If they think it's important enough, then of course, they would want to vote. If they think it's even more important, then they just do it themselves, instead of delegating the power to someone else.

Tower of Bebel
20th October 2009, 19:28
The standard anarchist response would be, "Why have representatives at all? Why can't we do it ourselves?"
You can't have a world without representation and delegation. We don't and won't live in very tiny communities anymore. Primitive communism cannot come back. The global devision of labour makes the delegation of power, duties, etc. and the representation of (groups of) people necessary. And under the communist way of living more than ever. The system that assigns people by lot and other such devises are meant to ensure that everyone can take part in this (as opposed to mere "bourgeois" rules which, even with the removal of scarcity, doesn't always prevent the formation of "ruling" cliques).

cyu
21st October 2009, 18:49
You can't have a world without representation and delegation.


Uh, didn't I mention delegation in my previous post? "The chef does not have the power to give them a turkey instead - he is just delegated the power to decide how much tomato sauce to use, the oven temperature, etc. The chef is no more able to "represent" the electorate than anybody else in deciding driving qualifications. He is judged according to the pizza he produced - if it's not good enough, then he is replaced."

Die Neue Zeit
24th October 2009, 17:10
what does this mean for the inner organisation of the revolutionary party if all positions of power are appointed by lottery?

My concern is the sample size and population size. If I remember my stats correctly:

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070508205233AAgDMZW

This means that demarchy's statistical representation potential in the party might be limited to bodies or congressional blocs with 30 or more persons. For example, I don't see how a political bureau of five members is statistically representative of the central committee.


Perhaps the solution is to have a mixed constitution for the leading body of the party, 2/3 by lot, 1/3 by election.

That's a good suggestion.


Election was retained in the ancient democracies for millitary officers who were elected by the troops. It was regarded that in this case it was important to have a person with technical military skills.

Could that not be fulfilled anyways by random selection? I'm absolutely certain that a demarchic process would have initial technical qualifications (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sortition#Disadvantages) before being eligible to be selected (since we can't select someone who really is illiterate).

The only value I see in elections is for sentimental attitudes towards those put up for election - the very purpose of elections these days (persons, not policies or ideas).

Q
26th October 2009, 09:39
Moved to Theory.

I had hoped it would have a more lively discussion in politics, but I guess it suits better inhere.

Q
26th October 2009, 20:11
I agree that a mixed election/lottery system would be preferable for the organisation of a revolutionary party, with a majority for lotted and a minority for elected delegates. For example: 60% of the delegates appointed by lot, 40% by elections. This is because of the fact that you have to take into account the point that you want to concentrate your most experienced members in the leadership, because of their knowledge and capabilities. But on the other hand you want to avoid any oligarchy from creating, hence the majority delegates by lottery. Furthermore such a setup would also be very educational for the membership as a whole. Because of the fact that everyone has to be capable of filling in a leadership position, it would be reasonable to assume there would be a much deeper focus of education of the membership as a whole. This would then strengthen the basic idea of building a party consisting of the most forward layers of the working class, those at leadership positions within the movement.

I'm just putting out some loose ideas right now, bit too tired right now to make more out of it.

Die Neue Zeit
27th October 2009, 03:49
I agree that a mixed election/lottery system would be preferable for the organisation of a revolutionary party, with a majority for lotted and a minority for elected delegates. For example: 60% of the delegates appointed by lot, 40% by elections. This is because of the fact that you have to take into account the point that you want to concentrate your most experienced members in the leadership, because of their knowledge and capabilities.

Again, that begs the question: "Could that not be fulfilled anyways by random selection? I'm absolutely certain that a demarchic process would have initial technical qualifications before being eligible to be selected (since we can't select someone who really is illiterate)."

In this case, we can have a demarchic version of musical chairs, the chairs being based on the qualification of incumbency or what not: x- or more years in the leadership, or in another leading party organ.

For example, let's take you, me, Rakunin, Paul Cockshott, and his like-minded colleagues as one pool: we're more than qualified to be on the party's "formal program" committee or what not (no offense to those who don't appreciate a "neo-Kautskyist" take on "formal programs"), but that committee has five spots. Lots can be cast as to who fills those five spots, from among that pool.

Paul Cockshott
27th October 2009, 10:25
That is excessively elitist I think. As soon as you put in prior qualification, unless it is a prior qualification met by the great majority, then you are introducing elitism. In a country like India, to introduce literacy as a criterion would be to introduce a definite class bias.

Q
27th October 2009, 10:53
That is excessively elitist I think. As soon as you put in prior qualification, unless it is a prior qualification met by the great majority, then you are introducing elitism. In a country like India, to introduce literacy as a criterion would be to introduce a definite class bias.
But isn't some "elitism" necessary (I'm speaking about parties)? I would think that, for example, only allowing people to participate in the lottery if they have been a member for more then a year is a good idea, since it gives the new member the time to get itself introduced to revolutionary politics and accustom itself with the organisation. It is also a good barrier to deter any infiltrators. But strictly speaking, it is elitism.

Paul Cockshott
27th October 2009, 12:59
If the great majority meet the criterion then it is not elitist, if only a minority or close to a minority do, then it is.

Die Neue Zeit
27th October 2009, 15:16
On the other hand, the "elitist" filter can also be based on tendency affiliations. For example, some party organ might need x- Trots, x- Maoists, x- class-strugglist anarchists, but no neo-Kauts. I'm referring to committees like "transitory action platform" committees. Something similar can be said for "electoral platform" committees, but with different compositions.

The editorial committee in particular would have to be filtered based on tendency, so as to include as many tendencies as possible on a "senatorial" footing (one member each, regardless of tendency size).

Paul Cockshott
27th October 2009, 21:33
That looks like a Lebanese nightmare of a constitution.

Dimentio
27th October 2009, 22:32
People would need some qualifications in order to do some tasks. What we need to do first and foremost is to make education available for everyone. Secondly, all processes regarding how society is administrated should be open and transparent, and no public official should have too much power.

Die Neue Zeit
28th October 2009, 01:55
That looks like a Lebanese nightmare of a constitution.

Here's the old link on this:

http://www.revleft.com/vb/senatorial-organization-online-t79582/index.html


Given my very vocal stance in recent weeks regarding the need for socialists in advanced countries to organize SPD-style (ie, revolutionaries and real, post-welfarist reformists), would a good start for unity revolve around "senatorial" organization for online and/or print newspapers?

For example, the editorial board would have one pareconist along the lines of Michael Albert, one "market socialist" along the lines of David Schweickart, one generic "democratic socialist" (but one who opposes mere "social democracy"), one liberation-theologist, one Trotskyist, one ortho-Marxist, one "maximalist" (revolutionary demands only, no minimums), one generic Marxist (preferrably a small-r revolutionary Marxist), and maybe even one anarcho-Marxist.

It's just my personal opinion on one tactic towards countering sectarianism, so that no one "eligible" tendency (can't just be literally "two men and a dog," as the Grantites would say) can say that their political positions are being censored from the party press.

Hyacinth
29th October 2009, 20:12
Simply fantastic article. Thank you Paul for this. It is truly a scandal that the left has for so long unquestioningly accepts bourgeois assumptions about what constitutes a democracy. Thereby implicitly, to a degree, lending an air of legitimacy to bourgeois liberal democracy. It is high time that we come out against bourgeois democracy, along with its elections, as oligarchic.

robbo203
29th October 2009, 20:24
Representative democracy is in my opinion the weakest form of democracy. I am not sure that there would be any role for it in a socialist/communist society. My preference would be for a combination of delegatory democracy (where you instruct individuals to present the agreed position of a given group or constituency) and direct democracy (where everyone has the vote on the matter to be decided upon)

Paul Cockshott
30th October 2009, 10:40
My point is that in practice delegatory systems like that adopted in Soviet Russia are the ideal form for the establishment of a one party dictatorship. The latter, whilst it has its advocates, is, I think, ultimately prejudicial to the long term interests of socialism.

Paul Cockshott
30th October 2009, 10:43
Simply fantastic article. Thank you Paul for this. It is truly a scandal that the left has for so long unquestioningly accepts bourgeois assumptions about what constitutes a democracy. Thereby implicitly, to a degree, lending an air of legitimacy to bourgeois liberal democracy. It is high time that we come out against bourgeois democracy, along with its elections, as oligarchic.

Well try arguing for direct democracy in the broader left, I have been trying since the start of the 90s and it is an uphill struggle. The internet is a great bonus in some ways though, in being able to put the arguments accross.

Hyacinth
30th October 2009, 21:50
Well try arguing for direct democracy in the broader left, I have been trying since the start of the 90s and it is an uphill struggle. The internet is a great bonus in some ways though, in being able to put the arguments accross.
It strikes me as ironic that the contemporary followers of Marx fail to take up the cause of (real) democracy, given that it was the early Marx's support of, and reflections on, democracy that lead to, and underpins, his socialism.

But, alas, the contemporary left leaves much to be desired.

On a less depressing subject: I'm curious as to how you came across the relevant passages in Aristotle? Aristotle's conception of democracy, and his distinction between democracy and oligarchy, are something that I started exploring after becoming acquainted with them in their contemporary form, i.e., demarchy. I was quite [pleasantly] surprised to see someone else, and at that in the Weekly Worker, make reference to them.

Paul Cockshott
31st October 2009, 19:50
My attention was first drawn to it perhaps by a comrade John Lowrie in the 80s, I also found Moses Finlays book Democracy Ancient and Modern helpful in its references to the classical thought on this.

Die Neue Zeit
5th November 2009, 15:12
It strikes me as ironic that the contemporary followers of Marx fail to take up the cause of (real) democracy, given that it was the early Marx's support of, and reflections on, democracy that lead to, and underpins, his socialism.

Um, per my blog, Marx too was a radical republican. :(

Hyacinth
5th November 2009, 21:13
Um, per my blog, Marx too was a radical republican. :(
If so, then Marx was also mistaken on this point. Hardly a big deal.

Die Neue Zeit
6th November 2009, 06:52
It is for those who insist on electing all officials as well as recalling them. ;)

peaccenicked
6th November 2009, 08:47
Hi Paul
I read the article, I think it is an excellent new paradigm as such as it can be said to be new. You explained much of this years ago to me, and i am still impressed. Yet I am a bit
old fashioned in that I think that a revolutionary situation will through up dual power as the battle for democracy throws up new institutions that broadly are the product of spontaneous struggles. How much these institutions are perfected democratically will be secondary to their effectiveness as their content as the dictatorship of the proletariat.
There is a dialectical relationship between the two as the "deformed" workers states have testified.
A maximum democratic program I think will develop piecemeal rather than as the platform of as the class as a majority, the return to society of an age old institution will
not be the product of a single ideological victory but a sensible solution to the democratic problems of a new society in the making.
I think it is realistic to fear that the advocacy of lottery will be initially a minority view given that is not rooted in recent enough history.

To the abolition of the wages system, that goes directly to the problems of transition.
It seems to me on reflection that there is direct relation to the extent of geopolitical power. How much of the world that is reclaimed for the workers and the eradication of the law of value. In that foreign capitalists may provide rarer use values
for wage labour for a limited time.
I think in general that we should not get too carried away with a maximum program
and focus on reforms that could be immediately put into practice, like stopping a war,
or freezing foreclosures and redundancies. It is not a matter of either/ or but making
use of the political opportunities that allow us to pose the questions of history.
All wars need strategies and tactics and not all of them can be pre-planned. Most of our programs look so lonely as documents, this we can only hope is transformed into the mainstay of social networking as a revolutionary climate emerges out of imperialist decay and financial ruin.

Paul Anderson

Paul Cockshott
7th November 2009, 19:24
Hi Paul,
You need to ask how there is ever to be a revolution of the old Soviet sort in a bourgeois parliamentary country?
It has never happened yet, why do you think it likely?
I am not ruling it out in time of massive military defeat after a terrible war, but in peacetime you need to offer a strategic orientation to how society is to develop. The idea of soviet power or CP rule will have very little popular appeal in a developed bourgeois state. I would content that direct democracy would have an appeal in such a state and would provide a platform on which to agitate. Remember how we stopped water privatisation!

Q
6th January 2010, 18:57
Bump :)

What about a two-tier system? On the one level you have an National Committee that exists of representatives all across the country. This NC is appointed exclusively by lottery.

This NC then elects an Executive Committee, consisting of fulltimers, because you want the most capable people to be fulltimer. The EC is responsible to the NC. The NC has no emotional ties or loyalty to the EC (which happens for example in slate systems) and thus can perform its task better in representing the rank and file membership in the branches.

A good idea?

Vladimir Innit Lenin
6th January 2010, 19:38
I would think that any Socialist, of revolutionary ilk, would reject the liberal democratic notion of combining representative democracy and the separation of the main national political organs into three distinct entities - the executive, legislative and judicial branches of government.

Clearly, this often leads to centralisation of assets, power and influence, which leaves policy open to the whims of those with money, far more often than not. Although in theory, this should not be a problem in a society where there is no war between capital and labour, a similar principle can be applied to 'power', as is applied to 'money.' That is, in a system where the organs of the state are centralised, a small number of people have access to information - intelligence, advanced macro-economic information etc. - and also to resources - intelligence again, police, direct access to national legislators -, resulting in the creation of an embedded political strata which is resistant to any measure or policy which threatens its hegemony on power, as happened in the USSR.

Thus, it is essential that power is de-centralised to the lowest possible level. To this end, Comrade Cockshott is spot on when he says that direct democracy is needed. I would caution that on a national scale, this would not be possible. However, a more participatory style of democracy - of the grassroots, 'town hall' type - could certainly exist within a federal political structure, whereby people in the townships, villages and even in tiny districts could vote on policy.

It would be ideal if policy were always to originate, even in the most basic form, at the lowest level. This would then bind those who hold regional and national power to the will of the people.

Of course, one cannot have the same people in charge of the national political scene year after year. There must surely be a rapid and smooth (i.e. by constitutional means) turnover of political delegates (delegates as oppossed to the crass, elitist Burkian notion of 'representatives'), as well as of course the power to recall. This was mainly an answer to Q's post above.

Although I would agree with the basic sentiment in the OP. Often the will for the abolition of monarchy becomes an overly bourgeois idea, owing to the want for a the creation of a 'democratic republic', which often takes the form of a bourgeois 'liberal democracy'.

Die Neue Zeit
7th January 2010, 06:36
There was some slightly off-topic discussion in a Politics thread on the IMT sect (http://www.revleft.com/vb/potential-split-imti-t124832/index9.html) regarding slate systems used by political parties.

I said there that such a "technocratic" slate system, or "job slot" system, should be randomly selected and not handpicked by the central committee, since the Bolsheviks resorted to this as a means of giving more power to the party leadership within leadership positions. Furthermore, a randomly selected group of 25 or larger is statistically representative of the "population" as a whole.

However, there is that aforementioned problem of sample size. Smaller groups may not be as representative. The aristocratic principle for selection - a.k.a. "elections" - may still play a constructive role.

Let's see what the organizational structure of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union, as defined in the Rules adopted by the 22nd congress in 1961 (http://www.politicsresources.net/docs/comrule.htm), has to offer for a modern revolutionary party.

Primary Party Organizations

Three or more party members at the lowest level formed a primary party organization. This met at least once a month. Where there were less than 15 party members, a secretary and deputy secretary were elected. Otherwise, a bureau was formed. Whether the modern equivalent of such bureau has 25 or more members determines the applicability of random selection.

Area, City, and District Party Organizations

Every area, city, and district party organization had conferences which formed committees (lower "central committees") and auditing commissions, and the committees elected secretaries and other bureau (lower "politburo") members. It's clear that the modern equivalents of said conferences and committees can be formed on the basis of random selection.

Secretaries and bureaus? See "Higher Party Organs" below.

Republican, Territorial, and Regional Party Organizations

They were similar to area, city, and district party organizations, except that there were no republican conferences, but congresses. The committee meetings confirmed "the chairmen of Party commissions, heads of departments of these committees, editors of Party newspapers and journals." The job slot system implied in the structure of the CPSU was more explicit in this section, since even on a technocratic basis these positions had "hard" qualifications (not just nepotistic patronage/"soft" qualifications).

Again, the modern equivalents of the conferences, congresses, and committees can be formed on the basis of random selection. Secretaries, secretariats (allowed at this level and higher) and bureaus? See "Higher Party Organs" below.

Higher Party Organs

Because the debate between random selections and elections is most obvious here (congress reps should all be randomly selected), let's turn to the composition of the Central Committee between 1917 and the 19th congress held in October 1952. All stats are from The Soviet elite from Lenin to Gorbachev (http://books.google.com/books?id=FeouUeq5_6gC), which comments on the job slot system.

6th Congress: 21 full members, 8 candidates
7th Congress: 15 members, 8 candidates
8th Congress: 19 members, 8 candidates
9th Congress: 19 members, 12 candidates
10th Congress: 25 members, 15 candidates
11th Congress: 27 members, 19 candidates

12th Congress: 40 members, 17 candidates
13th Congress: 53 members, 34 candidates
14th Congress: 63 members, 43 candidates

15th-18th Congresses: 71 members, 50 candidates @ 15th Congress to 68 members @ 18th Congress

Whether one considers the total number of Central Committees or the membership/candidacy divide, it becomes clear that random selection was the key to democratize the job slot system in place.



I agree that a mixed election/lottery system would be preferable for the organisation of a revolutionary party, with a majority for lotted and a minority for elected delegates. For example: 60% of the delegates appointed by lot, 40% by elections. This is because of the fact that you have to take into account the point that you want to concentrate your most experienced members in the leadership, because of their knowledge and capabilities.

Again, that begs the question: "Could that not be fulfilled anyways by random selection? I'm absolutely certain that a demarchic process would have initial technical qualifications before being eligible to be selected (since we can't select someone who really is illiterate)."

In this case, we can have a demarchic version of musical chairs, the chairs being based on the qualification of incumbency or what not: x- or more years in the leadership, or in another leading party organ.


That is excessively elitist I think. As soon as you put in prior qualification, unless it is a prior qualification met by the great majority, then you are introducing elitism.


But isn't some "elitism" necessary (I'm speaking about parties)? I would think that, for example, only allowing people to participate in the lottery if they have been a member for more then a year is a good idea, since it gives the new member the time to get itself introduced to revolutionary politics and accustom itself with the organisation. It is also a good barrier to deter any infiltrators. But strictly speaking, it is elitism.


On the other hand, the "elitist" filter can also be based on tendency affiliations. For example, some party organ might need x- Trots, x- Maoists, x- class-strugglist anarchists, but no neo-Kauts. I'm referring to committees like "transitory action platform" committees. Something similar can be said for "electoral platform" committees, but with different compositions.

The editorial committee in particular would have to be filtered based on tendency, so as to include as many tendencies as possible on a "senatorial" footing (one member each, regardless of tendency size).


That looks like a Lebanese nightmare of a constitution.


It's just my personal opinion on one tactic towards countering sectarianism, so that no one "eligible" tendency (can't just be literally "two men and a dog," as the Grantites would say) can say that their political positions are being censored from the party press.

Modern Solution?

So, take the CC candidate members, who I think are more representative of the rank-and-file while the full members are more representative of the Big Bad Bureaucracy. They don't need filters besides x- years of party membership.

The full members can still be randomly selected and not elected, but the congress/conference/meeting itself should discuss which "head" positions merit a voting voice in executive bodies (thereby democratizing the job slot system and getting past slate systems from ever above on high). The job candidates can then be filtered out on technical qualifications and slotted in on the basis of random sortition.

There's still the problem of the Political Bureau, Organizational Bureau, and Secretariat that are in practice above the Central/Executive Committee. However, the precedent set at the last congress of the CPSU in 1990, whereby Gorbachev was elected directly by the congress to be the CC General Secretary, could mean that the bureau members and committee Secretaries can be randomly selected from among job candidates beforehand, along with the other committee members!

Now, on to Q's post above:


What about a two-tier system? On the one level you have an National Committee that exists of representatives all across the country. This NC is appointed exclusively by lottery.

This NC then elects an Executive Committee, consisting of fulltimers, because you want the most capable people to be fulltimer. The EC is responsible to the NC. The NC has no emotional ties or loyalty to the EC (which happens for example in slate systems) and thus can perform its task better in representing the rank and file membership in the branches.

By "National Committee" and "Executive Committee," are you referring to congresses and committees (thus your solution would be similar to mine), or to committees and Polit/Org-buros (meaning your solution differs)?

Q
7th January 2010, 07:49
By "National Committee" and "Executive Committee," are you referring to congresses and committees (thus your solution would be similar to mine), or to committees and Polit/Org-buros (meaning your solution differs)?
The CPSU was highly centralised, so I'm not sure I can make a 1:1 comparison. The National Committee usually meets once a month or bi-monthly, discussing contemporary politics and organisational matters and making decisions. The Executive Committee then carries these decisions out. This is the theory.

In practice the EC in many organisations "cook up" the political line which is merely presented to the NC. The EC has an advantage in this in that they meet far more regularly. Due to their influence, aided by mechanisms like slate systems, the NC is "owned" by the EC, not by the general membership. This of course obstructs proper democratic accountability. To break this monopoly on discussion and lack of accountability I therefore propose to randomly select NC members (given that they have been a member for x amount of time). This way it isn't a requirement to be loyal to the leadership to get a seat in the NC, so accountability can happen more effectively.

You make a good point on congresses/conferences though, I forgot about that. Why not have these opened up for the whole membership though? Everyone who wants to come, can come, forget about delegates. This of course isn't very scalable in that you can't have a very practical congress with 100 000 attendees, but we're far from that kind of situation anyhow.

Die Neue Zeit
7th January 2010, 15:07
The CPSU was highly centralised, so I'm not sure I can make a 1:1 comparison. The National Committee usually meets once a month or bi-monthly, discussing contemporary politics and organisational matters and making decisions. The Executive Committee then carries these decisions out. This is the theory.

In practice the EC in many organisations "cook up" the political line which is merely presented to the NC. The EC has an advantage in this in that they meet far more regularly.

Then it's the latter (Central Committee and Politburo). The CC CPSU later on met only twice a year, the same rate that Supreme Soviet sessions were convened.

BTW, your example is good for smaller left organizations trying to apply random sortition. I only used the CPSU because of two things: it was a mass organization, despite "vanguardist" claims by Soviet propagandists (10% of the adult population), and I don't have SPD figures.


Due to their influence, aided by mechanisms like slate systems, the NC is "owned" by the EC, not by the general membership. This of course obstructs proper democratic accountability. To break this monopoly on discussion and lack of accountability I therefore propose to randomly select NC members (given that they have been a member for x amount of time). This way it isn't a requirement to be loyal to the leadership to get a seat in the NC, so accountability can happen more effectively.

Well, even if your EC is elected, its members should come directly from the NC. That way, an element of randomness may be introduced into the EC.


You make a good point on congresses/conferences though, I forgot about that. Why not have these opened up for the whole membership though? Everyone who wants to come, can come, forget about delegates. This of course isn't very scalable in that you can't have a very practical congress with 100 000 attendees, but we're far from that kind of situation anyhow.

The problem, then, is that you'll have something like RESPECT. As you know, each of its recent conference delegates paid a conference fee to attend. Restricting the number of attendees means introducing some sort of conference fee. At the very least, the voting mass in the congresses or conferences should be statistically representative of the party as a whole.

Die Neue Zeit
7th January 2010, 15:24
I would think that any Socialist, of revolutionary ilk, would reject the liberal democratic notion of combining representative democracy

...

There must surely be a rapid and smooth (i.e. by constitutional means) turnover of political delegates (delegates as oppossed to the crass, elitist Burkian notion of 'representatives'), as well as of course the power to recall. This was mainly an answer to Q's post above.

Although I would agree with the basic sentiment in the OP. Often the will for the abolition of monarchy becomes an overly bourgeois idea, owing to the want for a the creation of a 'democratic republic', which often takes the form of a bourgeois 'liberal democracy'.

I think you're resorting to anarchistic arguments about delegation vs. representation. We're talking about statistical representation here, which is something anarchists haven't yet addressed in criticizing Burke's view.

Paul Cockshott
7th January 2010, 22:25
Can you please explain what you mean by job candidates, and the process by which a person becomes a job candidate.

Die Neue Zeit
8th January 2010, 01:41
Indeed, and I do think the first part may be easier to explain than the second.

The most obvious example: a scientist. The organization, for its own reasons, is debating whether a smaller standing body requires a scientist, since that smaller standing body's meetings involve discussing tons of scientific issues.

If the Yes vote to include a scientist succeeds, then the job candidates are in fact those members of the organization who fit the scientist criteria, regardless of likeability. This gets rid of the "petty politics" / "personal politics" that is found in electoral politics.

In the case of the CPSU example, there would have been congressional debate on whether to include in the central committee the boss responsible for party archival records. This position would, of course, have prior job qualifications. If the Yes vote succeeds, the whole membership "relational database" is "queried" to find all appropriate job candidates. Random selection a la "musical chairs" would then be applied to see which of the candidates is qualified.

A more prominent CPSU example: the position of local or regional party boss in the Politburo. There would have been debate, either in congress or CC plenum, on whether to include in the politburo the Moscow party boss position (mainly as a proxy for the Moscow party branch having so many key members of the party bureaucracy). If this position had been filled by lower-level sortition in the recent past, then a second sortition may be needed.

http://books.google.com/books?id=t2GgcXKetPEC&dq


Whatever the political weight of the Central Committee as a whole, the job-slot basis of membership lends a measure of tenure to the individual member and of stability to the body as a whole. The weight of bureaucratic tradition, if nothing else, makes it difficult to remove or demote a large number of individuals suddenly or capriciously, since the rules of the game would require that they be replaced in their specific jobs at the same time.

[...]

To be sure, the top leadership has the power of discipline over the Central Committee by removing any jobholder from the position that confers membership - but if this power were used too broadly and abruptly, threatening the entire membership at once, it is conceivable that the Central Committee could mobilize its statutory authority to depose the leadership as it was called on to depose Khrushchev in 1964. The top leadership and the Central Committee elite thus stand in a position of mutual vulnerability.

The discretionary power of the top leadership over the membership of the Central Committee is further restricted, in addition to these practical limits on its powers of removal, in the choice of replacement members and in those it may add by expanding the membership at the time of the Party congress.

Random selection based on job slotting, the purest form of "slating from below," would make "elders" more replaceable, because the recalls and subsequent random selections would be based directly on the jobs and technical qualifications, and not mere likeability or membership ex officio in the executive body.

For example, recalling can occur directly or by discussing the job itself. In the case of the latter, if some local organization has shrunk to the point where the congress or committee decides the boss position isn't worth a voice on a higher executive body, the occupant may keep the job (or not), but not the executive body membership.

Again, random selection can be both democratic and technocratic. In being the latter as well as the former, you get rid of the "petty politics" / "personal politics" that is found in electoral politics.