INLA to renounce violence

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

An Irish republican paramilitary group responsible for hundreds of murders during Northern Ireland's troubles is to announce it is renouncing violence.
It is expected that the Irish National Liberation Army will say on Sunday afternoon that in future it will pursue exclusively peaceful means.
The INLA is a small but ruthless group that murdered more than 120 people, but has been on ceasefire for 11 years.
The group is expected to decommission its weapons within months.




http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/8301241.stm

[Spawn of Stalin]

Interesting, I wonder what this means for the IRSP, an increase in popularity? Or a decrease?

[Saorsa]

Any IRSP comrades able to give us a bit more info on this?

[Bitter Ashes]

Hoping not to kick off another dreaded IRA-debate, but this is good news. Once the sabre-rattling stops from the Republican side, the British goverment is going to really have a hard time explaining its military prescense in Northern Ireland to it's own people, let alone to the Irish, especially when people begin to twig that it was a different generation of IRA that was bombing the pubs and shopping centres in England.

It could even lead to some meaningful action against Loyalist paramilities who still want to persue a violent campaign if we're lucky.

[PRC-UTE]

Hoping not to kick off another dreaded IRA-debate, but this is good news. Once the sabre-rattling stops from the Republican side, the British goverment is going to really have a hard time explaining its military prescense in Northern Ireland to it's own people, let alone to the Irish, especially when people begin to twig that it was a different generation of IRA that was bombing the pubs and shopping centres in England.

It could even lead to some meaningful action against Loyalist paramilities who still want to persue a violent campaign if we're lucky.

The history of Ireland's never really unfolded that way, so I doubt it would now. The Troubles really started when loyalists attacked the nonviolent civil rights movement; the most extreme period of Loyalist murder squads was in the mid seventies, when the PIRA was on ceasefire, etc

The recent rise in sectarian violence over the last year or so has been a loyalist backlash against Catholics moving into areas as they please, even if these areas are considered Protestant only. We can expect that violent backlash to continue, no matter what republicans are doing.

Re the OP, last I heard the INLA said it still would refuse to even discuss decommissioning.

[Sasha]

An Irish republican paramilitary group responsible for hundreds of murders during Northern Ireland's troubles is to announce it is renouncing violence.
It is expected that the Irish National Liberation Army will say on Sunday afternoon that in future it will pursue exclusively peaceful means.
The INLA is a small but ruthless group that murdered more than 120 people, but has been on ceasefire for 11 years.
The group is expected to decommission its weapons within months.

:confused:
gotta love tha media

[PRC-UTE]

Any IRSP comrades able to give us a bit more info on this?

The statement coming out today will be available online after it's read at the Seamus Costello Commemoration in Bray. I'll put it up as soon as it's available a chara, shouldn't be too long.

I doubt it will really be as groundbreaking as is being made out after all the INLA has been on ceasefire since 1998

[Hoggy_RS]

Sure the INLA have had a policy of only retaliating if attacked, never instigating attacks since 98. I don't think they should decommision their weapons though.

The sticks are to start decommissioning soon I believe.

[Pogue]

maybe the british state will now follow suit :rolleyes:

[Tifosi]

maybe the british state will now follow suit :rolleyes:

If only. Anyway the group is always fighting itself now. It's best days are long gone. INLA, OIRA and I have seen reports that there will be a big split in the Conto's now. Looks we with have to keep it real


STATEMENT ON BEHALF OF THE LEADERSHIP OF THE IRISH REPUBLICAN SOCIALIST MOVEMENT

The INLA and IRSP were formed in 1974 in order to create a 32 County Socialist Republic. In those 35 years military volunteers and political activists have fought with courage and honour and have struck at the heart of the British military and political machine in Ireland and in Britain. The INLA is a key constituency within the Republican Socialist Movement (RSM). The INLA recognised that its struggle was based upon two distinct phases:

(1) Armed Resistance
(2) Political Organisation

In 1994 the INLA put in place a no first strike policy and in 1998 called a complete cease-fire. Both of these decisions were based on its political analysis and monitoring of the changing military and political environment. The recent progress on loyalist decommissioning can be traced back to the INLA’s “no first strike policy” of 1994 and the INLA acknowledges this progressive step by loyalism.

The RSM has been informed by the INLA that following a process of serious debate, consultation and analysis, it has concluded that the armed struggle is over and the objective of a 32 County Socialist Republic will be best achieved through exclusively peaceful political struggle.

The RSM agree with this analysis and are fully supportive of the move to build a left wing party that has a clear objective of a 32 County Socialist Republic based on the principles of equality, justice, inclusion, human rights and dignity.

It is within the above objective that the RSM opposed the Good Friday Agreement and continues to do so. We as a movement believe that the Six County State is not a viable political entity, which cannot be reformed and fitted into a flawed two State solution.

The RSM has always aspired to the principle of the primacy of politics as espoused by Ta Power.

The future struggles are political. We urge all comrades, members, volunteers and supporters to join the political struggle ahead with the same vigour, commitment and courage that was evident in our armed struggle against the British State.

To para-phrase James Connolly ‘let us arise’, build a left political alternative in Ireland and support the struggle against global capitalism.


Ultimately our allegiance is to the working class, onwards to victory

[PRC-UTE]

Sure the INLA have had a policy of only retaliating if attacked, never instigating attacks since 98. I don't think they should decommision their weapons though.

The sticks are to start decommissioning soon I believe.

There's no talk of decommissioning from the irps.

I heard the same bout the Sticks.

[Saorsa]

Was just about to post that statement up Clydeside, beat me to it. :-)

As PRC-UTE pointed out, this really isn't a big deal and shouldn't be seen as any kind of sellout. The INLA has been on ceasefire for over a decade, and the nature of the struggle has shifted. Also, there is no mention in that statement of any plans by the INLA to hand over it's weapons, a move I would have some issues with.

God luck to the IRSP comrades with whatever comes next.

[MaoTseHelen]

Pathetic. Wish I could say it wasn't and that I see it as a good move, but I don't. I didn't when the Provos bowed out and I don't now - backing off the fight is backing off the fight, regardless of who does it.

[Batman]

Pathetic. Wish I could say it wasn't and that I see it as a good move, but I don't. I didn't when the Provos bowed out and I don't now - backing off the fight is backing off the fight, regardless of who does it.

Seen as you've never been a member of the INLA or PIRA no one really gives a shit what you think.

[Crux]

Pathetic. Wish I could say it wasn't and that I see it as a good move, but I don't. I didn't when the Provos bowed out and I don't now - backing off the fight is backing off the fight, regardless of who does it.
Because the armed struggle has worked so well this far? I think you are idealizing.

[IrishWorker]

We can only speculate as to what the INLA will do with its weapons but on a personal level I would support a act of decommissioning to show our enemy’s and our own people that we are serious about making politics paramount in our future strategy’s as idle weapons are no use to anybody.
With the moves by all the major Loyalist groups to disarm and the officials proving that idle weapons serve no purpose what is the point of holding on to the capabilities to wage war in a society that dose not posses the climate for it.
I will never condem out right anyone that chooses the path of war with the UK but I would always ask them to put a decent political argument forward and to be honest none exist.
Just because Pearse said “Ireland unfree shall never be at peace” doesn’t mean that we should fill British jails full of every generation of young republicans.

[Andropov]

Shit storm over nothing.
That statement was just reafirming the previous position of the RSM.
Nothing has changed, only a media frenzy with reporters foaming at the mouths when in reality its just same old same old.

[Andropov]

Hoping not to kick off another dreaded IRA-debate, but this is good news.
Could you highlight what is "new" in that statement from RSM policy the day before?

Once the sabre-rattling stops from the Republican side,
What are you on about sabre rattling?

the British goverment is going to really have a hard time explaining its military prescense in Northern Ireland to it's own people,
Military presence is largely irrelevant.
If the 5000 Brit troops do move out of Ireland they still have their colonial constabulary to enforce British Imperialism in Ireland.

It could even lead to some meaningful action against Loyalist paramilities who still want to persue a violent campaign if we're lucky.
You really are clueless.
Loaylists are an item of control used by the British state to maintain the status quo in Ireland.
They are there to stir sectarian tensions, which of course plays into Imeprialisms hands and to be used as a the rabid counter revolutionary dog when needed.
So Loyalists will do what their paymasters in London tell them, they are not just a faction operating in isolation.

[Andropov]

Anyway the group is always fighting itself now.
How and when exactly?

[Bitter Ashes]

Could you highlight what is "new" in that statement from RSM policy the day before?

What are you on about sabre rattling?

Military presence is largely irrelevant.
If the 5000 Brit troops do move out of Ireland they still have their colonial constabulary to enforce British Imperialism in Ireland.

You really are clueless.
Loaylists are an item of control used by the British state to maintain the status quo in Ireland.
They are there to stir sectarian tensions, which of course plays into Imeprialisms hands and to be used as a the rabid counter revolutionary dog when needed.
So Loyalists will do what their paymasters in London tell them, they are not just a faction operating in isolation.
*groans*

You really do love those IRA flamewars dont you?

If you think I'm going to get dragged into responding to your posts regarding the IRA again, you've got another thing coming, because I am sick and tired to the back teeth of this attitude of your sole intent with these threads is to contradict anything I open my mouth about (feel free to contradict this too if you like). I'm absolutly certain that if I was say, for example, Jerry Adams has ten toes then you'd immediatly spring out of nowhere and argue to the death that he had eleven, or nine, or nine thousand.

Seriously. Grow up. Please.

[Andropov]

*groans*

You really do love those IRA flamewars dont you?

If you think I'm going to get dragged into responding to your posts regarding the IRA again, you've got another thing coming, because I am sick and tired to the back teeth of this attitude of your sole intent with these threads is to contradict anything I open my mouth about (feel free to contradict this too if you like). I'm absolutly certain that if I was say, for example, Jerry Adams has ten toes then you'd immediatly spring out of nowhere and argue to the death that he had eleven, or nine, or nine thousand.

Seriously. Grow up. Please.
If you feel compeled to post your Loyalist sympathising imperialist drivel on here I will be forced to respond with an analytical marxist response based on the material context of Ireland with referance to previous conclusions of the likes of Marx, Connolly and Lenin with regaurds to Ireland.

So if you dont want to start this debate, then dont start it.
Simple as that.

[Bitter Ashes]

It could even lead to some meaningful action against Loyalist paramilities who still want to persue a violent campaign if we're lucky.


If you feel compeled to post your Loyalist sympathising imperialist drivel on here I will be forced to respond with an analytical marxist response based on the material context of Ireland with referance to previous conclusions of the likes of Marx, Connolly and Lenin with regaurds to Ireland.

So if you dont want to start this debate, then dont start it.
Simple as that.

Yes.... It really looks that way doesnt it. Goodnight

[Q]

Finally, another group of political terrorists (http://www.marxists.de/theory/whatis/terror2.htm) finally sees that this tactic doesn't work.

Who is still left on "cease fire"?

[ls]

maybe the british state will now follow suit :rolleyes:

This really.

[Hoggy_RS]

Finally, another group of political terrorists (http://www.marxists.de/theory/whatis/terror2.htm) finally sees that this tactic doesn't work.

Who is still left on "cease fire"?

Finally sees? The INLA have been claiming the war is over since 1998.

Political terrorists? The INLA fought against an imperialist army that is still currently occupying Ireland. Maybe Trotsky wouldn't have found this admirable but then again many of us don't give a shit about much of the things he had to say.



*groans*

You really do love those IRA flamewars dont you?

If you think I'm going to get dragged into responding to your posts regarding the IRA again, you've got another thing coming, because I am sick and tired to the back teeth of this attitude of your sole intent with these threads is to contradict anything I open my mouth about (feel free to contradict this too if you like). I'm absolutly certain that if I was say, for example, Jerry Adams has ten toes then you'd immediatly spring out of nowhere and argue to the death that he had eleven, or nine, or nine thousand.

Seriously. Grow up. Please.
This thread is about the INLA not the IRA.

[Dr Mindbender]

Yes.... It really looks that way doesnt it. Goodnight
i think RR's choice of words was unfortunate, but its pretty naive to assume that the british government will do anything about the CLMC whenever they were a collusive tool for around 30 years.

Besides which these days they're mainly fighting among themselves so the peelers and government are happy just to let them kill each other.

[BobKKKindle$]

Finally, another group of political terrorists (http://www.marxists.de/theory/whatis/terror2.htm) finally sees that this tactic doesn't work.

Who is still left on "cease fire"?

I guess you think the FLN were also "political terrorists" then, given that they planted bombs in cafes and killed people like the pieds noirs who saw Algeria as an integral part of France, and whose conditions, despite them being a settler population, were often comparable to those of the indigenous Algerian population. There's no problem with criticizing strategies employed by national liberation movements if you do it in a way that shows your solidarity with their struggle, but if you start using the word "terrorist" and say that the tactic of "terrorism" (which is a bit meaningless to be honest, given that a whole range of groups have been accused of carrying out terrorist attacks and being terrorists despite having very different objectives and doing very different things - you wouldn't say that Hamas and Al-Qaeda are fundamentally the same, for example, even though imperialism brands both of them as terrorist organizations, because one is an informal network of isolated cells, which has as its sole objective the butchering of civilians mainly in Europe and North America, whereas the other is an organization which provides social services to a population of several hundred thousand and commands mass support) has never done anything, ever, even in conjunction with a mass movement, then given the current political context you begin to sound like you believe that groups like the INLA and the British state are just as bad as each other, and that the oppressed have no unconditional right to organize their own defense.

[Uncle Ho]

Finally, another group of political terrorists finally sees that this tactic doesn't work.

Who is still left on "cease fire"?

Doesn't work? It's the only tactic that ever has worked.

Do you really think the global bourgeoisie will relinquish power when confronted with masses of college students waving signs with witty little slogans?

It takes a loud noise for the deaf to hear, and our voices will never be loud enough.

[PRC-UTE]

Finally sees? The INLA have been claiming the war is over since 1998.

Political terrorists? The INLA fought against an imperialist army that is still currently occupying Ireland. Maybe Trotsky wouldn't have found this admirable but then again many of us don't give a shit about much of the things he had to say.

Here's what Trotsky had to say: “under conditions of civil war, the assassination of individual oppressors ceases to be an act of individual terror”. from Their morals and ours

Anyone even slightly familiar with the IRSM knows that it was born into a war situation, and responded in that context. However, setting up the armed wing was considered second in importance to the party.

The PIRA and INLA were the cutting edge of a much larger movement, not isolated terrorists with no support. Since even the British imperialists figured that out, and negotiated with not only the republican armies, but offered concessions to their base of support, you'd think the Left would get it by now.



This thread is about the INLA not the IRA.

It's weird how the people commenting don't even know what we're talking about, or the most basic facts of the situation, yet they keep commenting :confused:

[Pogue]

To our Irish Republican comrades:

If you saw the armed republican groups as agencies of self-defence for Catholic/Irish people in the occupied north, how do you view this demobilisation in the context of that?

Do you think it is acceptable and neccesary because there is no longer a threat to Catholics in the north? Because I thought the existence still of loyalist/far-right groups in the region would count against that.

Do you think there will be a need to create a new organ of class defence in Northern Ireland? Maybe some sort of branching out into anti-fascist activities in light of recent events?

[Andropov]

Good questions Pogue.

If you saw the armed republican groups as agencies of self-defence for Catholic/Irish people in the occupied north, how do you view this demobilisation in the context of that?
TBF we dont just see them as agencies of self defence for the working class we also saw them as an item of National Liberation.
But yes it is vital that Republican Socialists maintain some level of Military efficiency and capability in Ireland as history has proven that it is wise to be prepared in the face of sectarianism and state brutality.
Either could raise their ugly heads in the near future.

Do you think it is acceptable and neccesary because there is no longer a threat to Catholics in the north? Because I thought the existence still of loyalist/far-right groups in the region would count against that.
There is still a very real threat from the likes of the UDA.
Guns may have been handed over but their sectarian and reactionary ideology has not so be prepared.

Do you think there will be a need to create a new organ of class defence in Northern Ireland? Maybe some sort of branching out into anti-fascist activities in light of recent events?
Its an interesting idea Pogue but it is many years away yet.
Remember there are more "peace walls" in Belfast now than before the GFA.
Sectarianism is still rife and so reactioanry elements within working class areas would not grudgingly accept working class unity.
There are attempts by the likes of the RSM through our Prisoner support agency Teach na Failte to come to an understanding with the relatively more progressive UVF.
There have been many discussions and meetings, some private, many public in an attempt to bring a symbol that is important in Loyalist eyes to a more class based level.
But these stages are in their infancy and the UVF is still primarily reactionary but attempts are being made to heal working class division.
But like I said earlier such a move that you are proposing is still years away but definetly the right way to go if it can be achieved.

[Pogue]

Good questions Pogue.

TBF we dont just see them as agencies of self defence for the working class we also saw them as an item of National Liberation.
But yes it is vital that Republican Socialists maintain some level of Military efficiency and capability in Ireland as history has proven that it is wise to be prepared in the face of sectarianism and state brutality.
Either could raise their ugly heads in the near future.

There is still a very real threat from the likes of the UDA.
Guns may have been handed over but their sectarian and reactionary ideology has not so be prepared.

Its an interesting idea Pogue but it is many years away yet.
Remember there are more "peace walls" in Belfast now than before the GFA.
Sectarianism is still rife and so reactioanry elements within working class areas would not grudgingly accept working class unity.
There are attempts by the likes of the RSM through our Prisoner support agency Teach na Failte to come to an understanding with the relatively more progressive UVF.
There have been many discussions and meetings, some private, many public in an attempt to bring a symbol that is important in Loyalist eyes to a more class based level.
But these stages are in their infancy and the UVF is still primarily reactionary but attempts are being made to heal working class division.
But like I said earlier such a move that you are proposing is still years away but definetly the right way to go if it can be achieved.

So do you mean you wont be focusing on any other activities at all until sectarianism is destroyed? if so, how do you see it being destroyed?

and how would you try and deal with the immediate loyalist/fascist threat in the region?

i was concnerned by noises coming from the far right in the region.

[Andy Bowden]

Good decision by the IRSP/INLA even if it is just reaffirming what was agreed in 1998. There is zero support for resuming attacks on the British Army or RUC/PSNI among the nationalist community.

I accept that Republican attacks on dealers, car thieves, etc has significant support under many circumstances in nationalist areas but it isn't a long term solution to the problem of crime and there are obvious problems with unaccountable corporal punishments/executions.

So continuing to build an army under those circumstances is a totally wrong focus imo. There are other ways to oppose the NI government, by building a political force for socialism on Ireland, a pluralist socialist political party which I hope the IRSP can help build.

[ls]

You might wanna read this http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1568416&postcount=11.

[Andropov]

So do you mean you wont be focusing on any other activities at all until sectarianism is destroyed? if so, how do you see it being destroyed?
For the forseable future the RSM will work on building its working class base within Ireland through political activism.
With the obvious economic downturn and inevitable working class disputes there may be an option of working class unity within Ireland.
There is widespread PUL working class disatisfaction with the GFA so there is the possibility to gain some unity.
But if the context changes drastically in the future the RSM will address its position in relation to the changing situation.

and how would you try and deal with the immediate loyalist/fascist threat in the region?
The INLA are not gone away.
Just fading into the background as the party attempts to build support on exclusively political activism.
I cant speak on behalf of the INLA but I assume they will be there to defend the working class from reactionary elements.

i was concnerned by noises coming from the far right in the region.
The BNP have a new office in East Belfast from what I know of.
But as always the RSM shall not be found wanting.

[Crux]

Doesn't work? It's the only tactic that ever has worked.

Do you really think the global bourgeoisie will relinquish power when confronted with masses of college students waving signs with witty little slogans?

It takes a loud noise for the deaf to hear, and our voices will never be loud enough.
If you think that the only two methods of struggle are student protests and terrorist attacks, well I really don't know what to say to you. Aren't you forgetting something? The working class maybe? You ought to read the text comrade Q linked.

[Crux]

I guess you think the FLN were also "political terrorists" then, given that they planted bombs in cafes and killed people like the pieds noirs who saw Algeria as an integral part of France, and whose conditions, despite them being a settler population, were often comparable to those of the indigenous Algerian population. There's no problem with criticizing strategies employed by national liberation movements if you do it in a way that shows your solidarity with their struggle, but if you start using the word "terrorist" and say that the tactic of "terrorism" (which is a bit meaningless to be honest, given that a whole range of groups have been accused of carrying out terrorist attacks and being terrorists despite having very different objectives and doing very different things - you wouldn't say that Hamas and Al-Qaeda are fundamentally the same, for example, even though imperialism brands both of them as terrorist organizations, because one is an informal network of isolated cells, which has as its sole objective the butchering of civilians mainly in Europe and North America, whereas the other is an organization which provides social services to a population of several hundred thousand and commands mass support) has never done anything, ever, even in conjunction with a mass movement, then given the current political context you begin to sound like you believe that groups like the INLA and the British state are just as bad as each other, and that the oppressed have no unconditional right to organize their own defense.
And you read this from the renouncing of political terrorism as a method how exactly?

[Crux]

Good decision by the IRSP/INLA even if it is just reaffirming what was agreed in 1998. There is zero support for resuming attacks on the British Army or RUC/PSNI among the nationalist community.

I accept that Republican attacks on dealers, car thieves, etc has significant support under many circumstances in nationalist areas but it isn't a long term solution to the problem of crime and there are obvious problems with unaccountable corporal punishments/executions.

So continuing to build an army under those circumstances is a totally wrong focus imo. There are other ways to oppose the NI government, by building a political force for socialism on Ireland, a pluralist socialist political party which I hope the IRSP can help build.
Just to comment on the OP, I pretty much share these sentiments.

[Pogue]

For the forseable future the RSM will work on building its working class base within Ireland through political activism.
With the obvious economic downturn and inevitable working class disputes there may be an option of working class unity within Ireland.
There is widespread PUL working class disatisfaction with the GFA so there is the possibility to gain some unity.
But if the context changes drastically in the future the RSM will address its position in relation to the changing situation.

The INLA are not gone away.
Just fading into the background as the party attempts to build support on exclusively political activism.
I cant speak on behalf of the INLA but I assume they will be there to defend the working class from reactionary elements.

The BNP have a new office in East Belfast from what I know of.
But as always the RSM shall not be found wanting.

I think it'd be very positive if you guys could engage yourself in anti-fascist activities. Not only is it an area i naturally have an increased itnerest in, I also think its a positive area for republican socialists to engage in which has potential for doing away with any tensions in the region.

But then again who am I too say, you know the situation there better, don't wanna sound like some patrnosing brit now :lol: I'm interested though in Irish politics, call it what you will, maybe betraying some sort of chauvinistic nationalism undercover for the country my family come from that I like alot. Also I was concerned as I sad about the far right scum, last thing that area needs, I know AFA Ireland are active there but I was wondering how more left wing republicans seek to deal with that.

Thanks for answering my questions comrádaí

[Andropov]

I think it'd be very positive if you guys could engage yourself in anti-fascist activities. Not only is it an area i naturally have an increased itnerest in, I also think its a positive area for republican socialists to engage in which has potential for doing away with any tensions in the region.

But then again who am I too say, you know the situation there better, don't wanna sound like some patrnosing brit now :lol: I'm interested though in Irish politics, call it what you will, maybe betraying some sort of chauvinistic nationalism undercover for the country my family come from that I like alot. Also I was concerned as I sad about the far right scum, last thing that area needs, I know AFA Ireland are active there but I was wondering how more left wing republicans seek to deal with that.

Thanks for answering my questions comrádaí
I know the RSM had numerous links with Red Action back in the day.
In fact from my knowledge the only British Leftists who provided any substantial support to the RSM.
I heard a story before about a member of the RSM who went to a National Front concert in England with a hammer, when the concert was ending he walked onto the stage and buried it in the lead singers head.
Dont know if thats true but I like the story.

But back to the point I agree that the movement as a whole should involve themselves more in anti-Fascist activities especially since the BNP are attempting to build a base in Ireland now.
I know numerous individual members who are members of Antifa but there is no set RSM policy on it at the moment.
With the changes going on within the movement at the moment though it will be a while before such issues can be addressed.

[Dr Mindbender]

i agree with you Pogue about needing a bigger anti-fascist prescence but fascism in the imported BNP sense is a relatively new phenomenon here and the left here in the 6 counties are still testing the water.

What you have to understand though is the main problem is the BNP will never try to appeal to nationalists as its an impossible task and remain within protestant circles where the militant left is non existant. The ongoing sectarian divide pretty much prevents the IRSM doing anything about it cause they arent welcome in unionist towns unlike the BNP whose tone is striking a chord.

[Andropov]

i agree with you Pogue about needing a bigger anti-fascist prescence but fascism in the imported BNP sense is a relatively new phenomenon here and the left here in the 6 counties are still testing the water.

What you have to understand though is the main problem is the BNP will never try to appeal to nationalists as its an impossible task and remain within protestant circles where the militant left is non existant. The ongoing sectarian divide pretty much prevents the IRSM doing anything about it cause they arent welcome in unionist towns unlike the BNP whose tone is striking a chord.
Thats pretty much all spot on DM.
But what we can do is mobilise to stop them marching through our town centres or any public hate displays.

[Uncle Ho]

If you think that the only two methods of struggle are student protests and terrorist attacks, well I really don't know what to say to you. Aren't you forgetting something? The working class maybe? You ought to read the text comrade Q linked.

History has shown countless times that without at least the credible threat of violence, all peaceful means will be swept aside and ignored with impunity.

The bourgeoisie love only their own lives more than their money, and to obtain any real change, you must threaten both.

[Crux]

History has shown countless times that without at least the credible threat of violence, all peaceful means will be swept aside and ignored with impunity.

The bourgeoisie love only their own lives more than their money, and to obtain any real change, you must threaten both.
Through organizing the workingclass, yes. That is basicly why Lenin was sucessfull and his brother, who did after all take part in a plot that sucessfully murdered the tsar, was not. The russian marxists started out organizing worker's, not making bombs. And I think we agree that Tsarist russia was quite a more oppressive society than present day northern ireland.

[Revy]

I'll repost what I said in the other thread, which got buried...


I like the IRSP, I think they made the right decision.

Perhaps if the Scottish independence referendum in 2010 wins that will embolden the Irish cause. The UK pursues a rather hypocritical stance as it has supported independence in Kosovo (a very touchy, controversial issue that continues to raise tensions in the Balkans) yet condemns any national movements within itself.

[Costello]

We can only speculate as to what the INLA will do with its weapons but on a personal level I would support a act of decommissioning to show our enemy’s and our own people that we are serious about making politics paramount in our future strategy’s as idle weapons are no use to anybody.
With the moves by all the major Loyalist groups to disarm and the officials proving that idle weapons serve no purpose what is the point of holding on to the capabilities to wage war in a society that dose not posses the climate for it.
I will never condem out right anyone that chooses the path of war with the UK but I would always ask them to put a decent political argument forward and to be honest none exist.
Just because Pearse said “Ireland unfree shall never be at peace” doesn’t mean that we should fill British jails full of every generation of young republicans.

I support the the INLA's decision to allow the IRSP to oppose the British government's occupation of the North of Ireland peacefully, using politics, but I will never support any republican socialist army's decision to give it's weapons to it's enemy; that is simply surrendering to the British government and abandoning the Irish people in my opinion.

[MarxistLeninistMaoist]

they sold out by surrendering years ago, as did all republicans except from the few hugely reactionary groups, what a disgrace, when the english rebelled against rome we were in the right, they yanks say when they rebelled against the english, they were right, but the irish are fenian terrorist scum if they so much as mutter the words united.
the inla are pathetic and have failed to bring england grip on ireland to its knees.

[Costello]

they sold out by surrendering years ago, as did all republicans except from the few hugely reactionary groups, what a disgrace, when the english rebelled against rome we were in the right, they yanks say when they rebelled against the english, they were right, but the irish are fenian terrorist scum if they so much as mutter the words united.
the inla are pathetic and have failed to bring england grip on ireland to its knees.

The INLA didn't "sell out by surrendering years ago." It's leadership decided that the INLA should ceasefire because the correct conditions for a campaign of military activities did not exist.


"We have accepted the advice and analysis of the Irish Republican Socialist Party that the conditions for armed struggle do not exist. The Irish National Liberation Army has now shifted from the position of defence and retaliation to the position of complete ceasefire. We have instructed all our units to desist from offensive actions from noon today. The Irish National Liberation Army is now on ceasefire."

The INLA's declaration of it's ceasefire, 22 August 1998

[Die Rote Fahne]

Renouncing terrorism is fine.

Renouncing violence is ridiculous.

Those occupied have the right o struggle against the occupying force.

The worker must violently overthrow the ruling class.

[MarxistLeninistMaoist]

not fighting is surrendering

[Costello]

not fighting is surrendering

You don't need to use violence to oppose the British government's occupation of the North of Ireland.

[Saorsa]

MLM is a douche. I mean come on your an embarassment to actual Maoists. Please stop.

[MarxistLeninistMaoist]

your a ballot box idiot

[Saorsa]

No I'm a revolutionary communist. Your either an absolute idiot or a troll, I'm leaning towards the latter.

[MarxistLeninistMaoist]

dissent=troll

what an internet wanker

[Saorsa]

Lolwut

Dissent? Nobody's oppressing you. Your posting threads about how the cleaners and cafeteria workers etc that died in the 9/11 terrorist attacks deserved it. Your calling yourself 'MarxistLeninistMaoist' (which as an actual supporter of Maoism I find kinda annoying) yet your avatar is a FARC flag. The FARC are not a Maoist group. They do not practice a Maoist approach to their struggle and never did. You obviously don't know what your talking about and it annoys me that rather than taking an attidude reflecting the fact that you need to learn, your coming onto this board talking shit and putting forward a terrible political line which your name, 'MarxistLeninistMaoist', implies is somehow an MLM line. It is not.

I mean really, 'SwearbeforeComradeStalin'? Maoists don't 'swear' before anyone, and certainly not before 'ComradeStalin'.

Your politics are at this point a macho-leftist blend of Third-Worldist, Lin Biao-esque nationalism, with a healthy dose of violence-obsessed adventurism. Typical of the recent crop of idiots we've had on this forum. Your not quite Uncle Ho yet but you are still pretty bad.

Please, stop associating your politics with Maoism. It's bloody irritating.

[Saorsa]

the inla are pathetic and have failed to bring england grip on ireland to its knees.

I mean really? Your calling the INLA 'pathetic' because they failed to defeat the British? Who says that? In this thread in particular I your just trolling.

[MarxistLeninistMaoist]

im not maoist, i support maoist revolutionaries and ML revolutionaries, so what, sorry for not being sectarian
Now please, for the sake of your ass
get off my dick

[MarxistLeninistMaoist]

and i actually called them pathetic for stopping resisting imperialism, if i was irish id be fucking ashamed.
as a socialist and an internationalist, i am, and every socialist should regard it as a loss for the working class as a whole

[Bitter Ashes]

*glances at the posts and sighs*

Sectarian, racist, anti-working class, possibly homophobic, doesn't seem to know bugger all about anything to do with the left and vulgar.... and I've only read five of your posts MLM.

So, you're at a crossroads now:

1) Go back to playing Red Alert, or watching Red Dawn, or whatever it is that you're getting your ideas from and bask in the fictious ideoligies represented there.

2) Accept that maybe you are not as well clued in as you thought and actualy try learn about the left, rather than just trying to guess what socialists are actualy like from snippets of videogames, Hollywood and other bourgeois propaganda. Chances are, if you actualy do some learning, you'll find things are not only vastly different to whatever fantasy you've been fed, but also vastly better for all workers too.

Or you could just stay here and become very unpopular until you get moved to OI seeing as though you're not actualy following any sort of revolutionary left ideoligy. Whatever you do though, leave the hormones at home.

Up to you, although the research does pay off. Trust me on this one.

[MarxistLeninistMaoist]

go to palestine somalia india cuba guatemala vietnam korea china panama iraq afghanistan bolivia peru honduras the congo, ask whos worse, someone who acknowledges the first world workers are happy with imperialism and that acceptrs 9 11 happened for a reason or someone who says the first world workers are victims and they dont live happily because 24 million in the oppressed nations have no food.

[革命者]

I agree with the "critics" above. You should really stop posing like you know it all, since you scare off people who do know what they're talking of (like the new member Costello, above). Also, outside Chit-chat or Opposing Ideologies, think hard about what you want to say before posting and make sure it's relevant. The thread you started on 9/11 was laughable and highly pretentious; not because of the topic, but because of all the pseudo-leftist rhetoric and unnecessary analogies.

Please change your attitude. If you want to be a leftist, you should be far more receptible of what other people tell you and you should be able to question your own convictions.

[MarxistLeninistMaoist]

so you think forst world workers are exploited and that they dont gain off the misery of the third world.
no wonder all the MLs on MYSP are either banned or dont come on here, your full of sell out idiots who will never do anything but talk about revolution.
Looking at other threads, its funny how if anyone says anything about the first world being oppressive you all go off your nuts, like malte and his i love isreal mind bending hypocrisy

[Saorsa]

im not maoist, i support maoist revolutionaries and ML revolutionaries, so what, sorry for not being sectarian

*sighs* Your user name is 'MarxistLeninistMaoist'. That tends to implie to most people that your a Marxist-Leninist-Maoist. I'm not sure where sectarian comes into this


Now please, for the sake of your ass
get off my dick

I doubt your dick would do much to my ass, your probably like 12 :lol:


and i actually called them pathetic for stopping resisting imperialism, if i was irish id be fucking ashamed.

You don't have the mana to call the INLA, a group of men and women who suffered everything from death to torture and imprisonment in their fight for freedom, 'pathetic' because they recognised the unfortunate but objective facts that the war was over, the Brits couldn't be removed through force at this point in time, and with the Provo's sell out there was an urgent need for a political struggle to rebuild the Republican movement, and rebuild it on a revolutionary working class basis.

They're not pathetic, but the fact that someone like you thinks you know what the facts on the ground are in Ireland kinda is.


as a socialist and an internationalist, i am, and every socialist should regard it as a loss for the working class as a whole

The INLA has been on ceasefire for over a decade. It has not decommisioned it's weapons, it is not part of any British 'peace process' and it is not going to dissolve itself. As comrades frm the erps have already pointed out, it's just 'fading into the background' for a while until it's needed again.

Show some respect mate.

[MarxistLeninistMaoist]

show respect for the group that were so fucking cowardly they chose to stop their armed campaign while their people were still under imperialism, no.
They knew the british army was a huge force before they took up arms, they just became battle weary and lost their will to fight, they DID sell out as the tricolour isnt flying instead the NI flag is.
Those volunteers who did give their lives died for a socialist republic, not seats in stormont.

[Bitter Ashes]

so you think forst world workers are exploited and that they dont gain off the misery of the third world.
no wonder all the MLs on MYSP are either banned or dont come on here, your full of sell out idiots who will never do anything but talk about revolution.
Looking at other threads, its funny how if anyone says anything about the first world being oppressive you all go off your nuts, like malte and his i love isreal mind bending hypocrisy
In the intrests of keeping this already neco'd thread ontopic I've created a thread for you in the learning area MLM.
http://www.revleft.com/vb/1st-world-workers-t125945/index.html?p=1639798#post1639798
I'm sure everyone would appreciate it, if you used this thread only to discuss the INLA's disarmanent.

[MarxistLeninistMaoist]

stop patroniosing you dick

[Bitter Ashes]

stop patroniosing you dick
Not got one. Want to try again?
Seriously though. The offer's there if you want to discuss it and actualy learn something. There's a good reason that you're not getting any solidarity here, so I suggest you take a break and if you want to argue your point about the 1st world exploiting the 3rd world, there's a thread there for it, but the place is not here.

[Saorsa]

show respect for the group that were so fucking cowardly they chose to stop their armed campaign while their people were still under imperialism, no.

They stopped it largely because the people demanded them to. There is no mass support amongst oppressed nationalist Irish in the 6 counties for a return to armed struggle.


They knew the british army was a huge force before they took up arms, they just became battle weary and lost their will to fight, they DID sell out as the tricolour isnt flying instead the NI flag is.

Sometimes revolutions fail. Sometimes revolutionaries are defeated. Sometimes, as is the case with the IRSM, revolutionary movements change their tactics in order to continue their struggle in a manner that best suits the conditions at the time. The struggle to replace not only the Union Jack with a tricolour but hoist the red flag up along side it is still on, and the IRSM never stopped being an active part of it.


Those volunteers who did give their lives died for a socialist republic, not seats in stormont.

*sighs*

Again, check the facts before posting. Ask questions before shouting out answers. Provisional Sinn Fein, a different organisation, abandoned the struggle for seats in parliament. The IRSM did not. They do not have seats in Stormont.

[MarxistLeninistMaoist]

no shit a female communist, thought you were extinct
ohh you gunna call me sexist now haha

[MarxistLeninistMaoist]

and ok will not off topicv this thread anymore
apologies

[scarletghoul]

If they really mean that they're renouncing violence then that fucking sucks. However, if they are just bluffing as part of a wider strategy (which is likely) then that's ok. Temporarily stopping violence is sometimes the only sensible thing to do when the military odds are against you and you'd be much better off organising in the political sphere establishing a mass bass of support, while maintaining a revolutoinary objective and never letting go of the possible resumption of violence. Like the Maoists in Nepal.
It seems as if this is the case. The IRSM's New Year's message was full of revolutionary spirit, and pointed out that the conditions were not there for a military victory, so they intend to put most effort into organising politically. So MLM I understand why you're so angry but it seems that you're just not looking at the bigger picture properly. The INLA is not 'renouncing violence' forever and giving up the fight for national liberation (if they were then I would be making similar posts to yours); what they are doing is temporarily halting the military campaign which is currently unwinnable, and focussing on political activity in order to create conditions where the IRSM can win and Ireland can be freed. So the struggle is carrying on, and maybe the military campaign will resume when conditions are favourable. :)

[Costello]

show respect for the group that were so fucking cowardly they chose to stop their armed campaign while their people were still under imperialism, no.
They knew the british army was a huge force before they took up arms, they just became battle weary and lost their will to fight, they DID sell out as the tricolour isnt flying instead the NI flag is.
Those volunteers who did give their lives died for a socialist republic, not seats in stormont.

I live in the North of Ireland - you don't know what you're talking about. The correct conditions for a campaign of military activities simply do not exist; a campaign in Ireland would only make republican socialism more unpopular for the Irish people than it already is.

[Costello]

show respect for the group that were so fucking cowardly they chose to stop their armed campaign while their people were still under imperialism, no.
They knew the british army was a huge force before they took up arms, they just became battle weary and lost their will to fight, they DID sell out as the tricolour isnt flying instead the NI flag is.
Those volunteers who did give their lives died for a socialist republic, not seats in stormont.


If it is your opinion that a republican socialist army who has ceasefired are cowards then why don't you begin your own campaign of military activities to oppose imperialism in the country that you live in?

[Hoggy_RS]

show respect for the group that were so fucking cowardly they chose to stop their armed campaign while their people were still under imperialism, no.
They knew the british army was a huge force before they took up arms, they just became battle weary and lost their will to fight, they DID sell out as the tricolour isnt flying instead the NI flag is.
Those volunteers who did give their lives died for a socialist republic, not seats in stormont.
Your an idiot. Your disrespect for the volunteers of the INLA is a disgrace. How are they cowards? What the fuck have you done in your life? have you ever put your life on the line for a cause? I presume you are 12 or 13 and have absolutley no idea of the world. How have they sold out, they havent given over any weapons? Armed struggle is still an option, just not a path the IRSM plans to follow at this time.

Your ignorance is shown by the fact that the IRSP does not take seats in stormont(thats Sinn Fein numb nuts) and there is no such thing as the NI flag.

Now fuck off you clueless sexist idiot.

[redflag32]

[QUOTE]We can only speculate as to what the INLA will do with its weapons but on a personal level I would support a act of decommissioning to show our enemy’s and our own people that we are serious about making politics paramount

Why would you be bothered with wanting your enemy to know what your up to?



as idle weapons are no use to anybody.

Very debateable.


With the moves by all the major Loyalist groups to disarm and the officials proving that idle weapons serve no purpose what is the point of holding on to the capabilities to wage war in a society that dose not posses the climate for it.

Because the capitalist class are still armed.


I will never condem out right anyone that chooses the path of war with the UK but I would always ask them to put a decent political argument forward and to be honest none exist.

Thats not correct. There is a very sound political argument for 'war with the Uk'. It has been the basis from which all uprisings against the British presence in Ireland have stemed from. The right of national-self determination. The armed rsistence is only a tactic,it is that tactic which is not very usefull at this present time. That doesnt mean there isnt a political argument for it, it just means it would more than likely be counter productive. However, if republicans started attacking British army posts and capturing weapons, and letting soldiers go, it might be a different matter. My point is that it isnt black and white. Handing weapons over to the enemy is certainly not the way to go anyway.

Your the first IRSM member ive seen to be in favour of decomisioning. I hope that isnt a popular opinion in the organisation.

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

no shit a female communist, thought you were extinct
ohh you gunna call me sexist now haha

Shit I knew that you were a one man revolution but fuck when I saw this comment sticking it to the (wo)man and her strange fantasies about having her opinions considered in the same manner as men on this fourm, well shit i'm fully expecting mass execution style killings of the ruling class this week by you now.

[MarxistLeninistMaoist]

no i have not took up arms in my own country, because im 18 have no money no weapons and my country isnt under imperialism, however INLA have all the tools they need, they are just too shit to do anything, if the best you can do is bomb buildings and fire a few rpgs, then you cleary do not have enough support, therfor they shouldnt have started the military campaign.
their only charasmatic speaker was costello, and he was killed by the stickies.
and yeah i know they dont take seats, my critique was of the republican movements biggest group.
and worshiping failed revolutionaries who killed a few cops and off duty ruc men is pointless.
Also yeah their is a NI flag you idiot

[Hoggy_RS]

no i have not took up arms in my own country, because im 18 have no money no weapons and my country isnt under imperialism, however INLA have all the tools they need, they are just too shit to do anything, if the best you can do is bomb buildings and fire a few rpgs, then you cleary do not have enough support, therfor they shouldnt have started the military campaign.
their only charasmatic speaker was costello, and he was killed by the stickies.
and yeah i know they dont take seats, my critique was of the republican movements biggest group.
and worshiping failed revolutionaries who killed a few cops and off duty ruc men is pointless.
Also yeah their is a NI flag you idiot
Alrite gangsta, calm yourself. Im sure when you have some money you'll be taking it straight to the man with an AK.

Who are you, as some stupid little prick, got the right to tell the INLA what it should or shouldn't do? Do you expect them to somehow have thousands and thousands of volunteers going inot head on battle with the British army? Is the weather nice in your dream world? The IRSM are realistic group and are following a political path as the armed struggle is not viable for any group in Ireland.

Someone googled the INLA and found costellos name did ya? the IRSM has had other great members for example Ta Power.

There is NO NI flag you fucking dumb shit. Now go troll elsewhere cause you don't know shit about the IRSM(or about politics in general for that matter)

[MarxistLeninistMaoist]

no seamus costello was the first marxist i had heard or read about after james connolly, and i admire him very much, but i dont see why i as a working class 18 year old dont have the right to say anything i like about INLA, after all they are answerable to the people, or like you have they turned elitist, you and most of the midle class bullshitters on here think your above the people, you are everything that is wrong with the left.
you are as bad as the starbucks drinking antiflag tossers
good day to you sir

[Saorsa]

This guy has to be a troll it's just too awful to be real. A pretty dedicated troll, but a troll nonetheless.

[Jolly Red Giant]

Provisional Sinn Fein, a different organisation, abandoned the struggle for seats in parliament. The IRSM did not. They do not have seats in Stormont. Probably because no one would vote for them - I wonder if their previous flirtation with the IMT had anything to do with this 'abandoning the armed struggle'.

[IrishWorker]

Probably because no one would vote for them - I wonder if their previous flirtation with the IMT had anything to do with this 'abandoning the armed struggle'.
I detect a bit of the oul shit talk.

[Jolly Red Giant]

I detect a bit of the oul shit talk. Am I correct in recalling that over its entire existance since 1974 the IRSP has succeeded in getting two candidates elected under the IRSP banner - Costello in Bray and a town commissioner in Clare - and none for the past 25 years (and I am ignoring the anti-H-block vote because a dog with a mallet up its rear end would have got elected on that ticket at the time - as demonstrated by the fact that they polled badly when the H-blocks were no longer an issue)?

And do tell us how constructive the IRSM discussions with the IMT were?

[IrishWorker]

Am I correct in recalling that over its entire existance since 1974 the IRSP has succeeded in getting two candidates elected under the IRSP banner - Costello in Bray and a town commissioner in Clare - and none for the past 25 years (and I am ignoring the anti-H-block vote because a dog with a mallet up its rear end would have got elected on that ticket at the time - as demonstrated by the fact that they polled badly when the H-blocks were no longer an issue)?

And do tell us how constructive the IRSM discussions with the IMT were?
Certainly when the capitalist media the British the provos the free stators the stickies and the IPLO all attack I’m not surprised the IRSM never had time to properly organize politically whilst fighting on all fronts.

If you wish to know any information about the party and its affiliations past or present I suggest you contact the party as I am just a poster on an internet forum and I can only speak for myself.

[Jolly Red Giant]

If you wish to know any information about the party and its affiliations past or present I suggest you contact the party as I am just a poster on an internet forum and I can only speak for myself.
I probably know a lot more about the IRSP/IRSM than you so - given that I personally know quite a few former IRSP/INLA individuals.

[IrishWorker]

I probably know a lot more about the IRSP/IRSM than you so - given that I personally know quite a few former IRSP/INLA individuals.
Congratulations your blue peter badge is in the post.

[Jolly Red Giant]

Certainly when the capitalist media the British the provos the free stators the stickies and the IPLO all attack I’m not surprised the IRSM never had time to properly organize politically whilst fighting on all fronts.

The fact that they spent most of their time in the pub figuring out ways of killing one another, probably had more to do with it.

[IrishWorker]

The fact that they spent most of their time in the pub figuring out ways of killing one another, probably had more to do with it.
I doubt that was the sole purpose of the IRSM during the war.
You clearly have an agenda towards the IRSM and have clearly re joined Revleft to troll.

[Jolly Red Giant]

You clearly have an agenda towards the IRSM
No agenda at all - the IRSM are pretty much an irrelevence to the Irish working class - and the only real impact they had in the previous 30 years was shooting people.

I know several former members of the INLA that were targetted in internal feuds and one who was assassinated in an internal feud - and none of them ever played any role in supporting or assisting any working class movement or struggle.

[IrishWorker]

No agenda at all - the IRSM are pretty much an irrelevence to the Irish working class - and the only real impact they had in the previous 30 years was shooting people.

I know several former members of the INLA that were targetted in internal feuds and one who was assassinated in an internal feud - and none of them ever played any role in supporting or assisting any working class movement or struggle.

Taking into consideration that the political leadership of the IRSM was systematically assassinated over a 30 year period I think they done pretty well to even survive the onslaught.

The IRSM of 2010 is a vibrant progressive forward thinking entity with none of the baggage of the past so take your cheap pot shots all you like your agenda is clear for all to see.

[Woyzeck]

Probably because no one would vote for them - I wonder if their previous flirtation with the IMT had anything to do with this 'abandoning the armed struggle'.

I doubt it. How many IRSM members are even aware of the IMT and its politics or the IRSP's "previous flirtation" with it?

[Jolly Red Giant]

Taking into consideration that the political leadership of the IRSM was systematically assassinated over a 30 year period I think they done pretty well to even survive the onslaught.
mostly by themselves


The IRSM of 2010 is a vibrant progressive forward thinking entity with none of the baggage of the past so take your cheap pot shots all you like your agenda is clear for all to see.
Good to see that they are 'thinking' - certainly haven't seen them 'doing' anything.

Another question - seeing as the IRSM has abandoned the armed struggle - have they abandoned their other 'activities' as well?

[ANTI-THESIS-TO-OPPRESSION]

mostly by themselves


Good to see that they are 'thinking' - certainly haven't seen them 'doing' anything.

Another question - seeing as the IRSM has abandoned the armed struggle - have they abandoned their other 'activities' as well?

If you start with the capitalist lie of "they sell drugs" dont bother, it is fucking bullshit.

[Jolly Red Giant]

If you start with the capitalist lie of "they sell drugs" dont bother, it is fucking bullshit.
I never mentioned drugs - why did they do that too?

[IrishWorker]

I sense a sock puppet troll attack.

Baton down the hatches comrades and prepare the flame war.

[Bitter Ashes]

I'm not exactly the biggest defender of the paramilitaries in Ireland, but I do know this; The extreme anti-drugs stance of IRA groups is well documented. 'nuff sed.

[Jolly Red Giant]

I'm not exactly the biggest defender of the paramilitaries in Ireland, but I do know this; The extreme anti-drugs stance of IRA groups is well documented. 'nuff sed.
Again - who mentioned bloody drugs - I didn't - talk about paper castles - all I asked was will - or have the INLA abandoned their other 'activites' along with their 'armed campaign'.

[Jolly Red Giant]

Oh Dear -

The Criminal Assets Bureau has been granted permission to sell four properties belonging to a member of the INLA and a Galway drug dealer.

In a second case, it ruled that three houses belonging to an INLA member were also the proceeds of crime. The man, who cannot be named for legal reasons, is involved in fraud, theft and brothel keeping and the sale of his properties should make at least €300,000.

RTE Website

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

Oh Dear -

The Criminal Assets Bureau has been granted permission to sell four properties belonging to a member of the INLA and a Galway drug dealer.

In a second case, it ruled that three houses belonging to an INLA member were also the proceeds of crime. The man, who cannot be named for legal reasons, is involved in fraud, theft and brothel keeping and the sale of his properties should make at least €300,000.

RTE Website



I don't even support national liberation but this is such shit, I mean if these kind of standards started appearing in schools I would advocate drowning children who academically fell behind. In what way do you think that you are doing anything but lowers the tone of debate on this forum by posting statements made by one opposing side in an armed conflict on the other and using them as actual facts. Posting links to forums where Irish folk discuss the various paramilitaries and how much lsd you can buy from them for forty quid might be a start but this is straight off the pages of the worlds biggest twat annual two thousand and fucking ten.

Seriously sort your shit out.

[IrishWorker]

I don't even support national liberation but this is such shit, I mean if these kind of standards started appearing in schools I would advocate drowning children who academically fell behind. In what way do you think that you are doing anything but lowers the tone of debate on this forum by posting statements made by one opposing side in an armed conflict on the other and using them as actual facts. Posting links to forums where Irish folk discuss the various paramilitaries and how much lsd you can buy from them for forty quid might be a start but this is straight off the pages of the worlds biggest twat annual two thousand and fucking ten.

Seriously sort your shit out.
Seriously couldn’t agree more.

[Dr Mindbender]

I'm not exactly the biggest defender of the paramilitaries in Ireland, but I do know this; The extreme anti-drugs stance of IRA groups is well documented. 'nuff sed.

I'm not so sure if its as true for the republicans given certainly the INLA's sense of progressive social responsibility but i know the only reason that loyalist paramilitaries are so 'extreme anti-drugs' is because the independent dealers are taking their business.

You dont see the UVF and UDA rattling tins outside ASDA on a Friday, they must get their money from somewhere and its not by moonlighting in a 9-5 job.

[Soldier of life]

Oh Dear -

The Criminal Assets Bureau has been granted permission to sell four properties belonging to a member of the INLA and a Galway drug dealer.

In a second case, it ruled that three houses belonging to an INLA member were also the proceeds of crime. The man, who cannot be named for legal reasons, is involved in fraud, theft and brothel keeping and the sale of his properties should make at least €300,000.

RTE Website





If the man was a member of the INLA, or even suspected of being so he would be locked up in 2 seconds flat under the current draconian legislation in the 26. If he was locked up then they could name him...ie. bullshit. Great to see you quoting RTE to bash socialists, next you'll be quoting the IMC.

And as for your knowing of former INLA members who didnt do a tap for the working class, I would have thought being a member of an organisation who fought imperialism and capitalism in their interests would have been enough.

I wonder have you risked you life for socialism a chara, I doubt it I dunno what daddy would think of that. Keep 'sticking it to the man' you soap dodger, I somehow doubt when the INLA and other republican socialists were engaging the brits you were anywhere to be found, funny how a lifestylists finds the balls to question people who did years in jail for their politics and saw many of their comrades die for them, it's easy over the net eh our little troll

[Soldier of life]

Am I correct in recalling that over its entire existance since 1974 the IRSP has succeeded in getting two candidates elected under the IRSP banner - Costello in Bray and a town commissioner in Clare - and none for the past 25 years (and I am ignoring the anti-H-block vote because a dog with a mallet up its rear end would have got elected on that ticket at the time - as demonstrated by the fact that they polled badly when the H-blocks were no longer an issue)?

And do tell us how constructive the IRSM discussions with the IMT were?

Show us evidence the IRSM was in discussion with the IMT a chara and on what topic? Cheers.

[PRC-UTE]

Am I correct in recalling that over its entire existance since 1974 the IRSP has succeeded in getting two candidates elected under the IRSP banner - Costello in Bray and a town commissioner in Clare - and none for the past 25 years (and I am ignoring the anti-H-block vote because a dog with a mallet up its rear end would have got elected on that ticket at the time - as demonstrated by the fact that they polled badly when the H-blocks were no longer an issue)

The three IRSP candidates elected were in Shannon, Co Clare as you mentioned, and the two in Belfast. When Costello was elected, he was in SF. He ran as IRSP but wasn't elected that time. I found the original article from the times not long ago. Was interesting as it described him as 'more red than the socialists'. :cool:

Outside of the H-Block protest votes, the IRSM's polled decently as protest candidates without being elected. Not huge or anything, but then I don't think republican socialists have made that claim, nor do they see electoralism as the way forward.

[Woyzeck]

Not huge or anything, but then I don't think republican socialists have made that claim, nor do they see electoralism as the way forward.

Exactly. What kind of socialist revolutionary bases the validity of an organisation and its politics on whether or not it has success in bourgeois elections?

[Soldier of life]

Exactly. What kind of socialist revolutionary bases the validity of an organisation and its politics on whether or not it has success in bourgeois elections?

An Irish lifestylist trot

[Soldier of life]

The three IRSP candidates elected were in Shannon, Co Clare as you mentioned, and the two in Belfast. When Costello was elected, he was in SF. He ran as IRSP but wasn't elected that time. I found the original article from the times not long ago. Was interesting as it described him as 'more red than the socialists'. :cool:

Outside of the H-Block protest votes, the IRSM's polled decently as protest candidates without being elected. Not huge or anything, but then I don't think republican socialists have made that claim, nor do they see electoralism as the way forward.

Any chance of forwarding on that article:star2:

[Woyzeck]

An Irish lifestylist trot

More like a reformist. Trotskyism has nothing to do with "lifestylism".

[Soldier of life]

More like a reformist. Trotskyism has nothing to do with "lifestylism".

In Ireland they seem inextricably linked:lol:

[Woyzeck]

In Ireland they seem inextricably linked:lol:

The Socialist Party or Socialist Democracy are hardly lifestylists. :lol:

[Woyzeck]

Or what about Workers Power? They love the IRSM. :D

[Soldier of life]

The Socialist Party or Socialist Democracy are hardly lifestylists. :lol:

Why leave out the SWP there?:lol:

[Woyzeck]

Why leave out the SWP there?:lol:

They are lifestylists. :D

[PRC-UTE]

Any chance of forwarding on that article:star2:

Looking for it now...have a really good article by Miriam Daly from the times :cool:

[Soldier of life]

Looking for it now...have a really good article by Miriam Daly from the times :cool:

I'll have both then:wub:

[Seven Stars]

I'll have both then:wub:

Myself aswell, if you know what's good for ya! :cool:

[Andropov]

Probably because no one would vote for them - I wonder if their previous flirtation with the IMT had anything to do with this 'abandoning the armed struggle'.
Ahh judging political success by electoralism, says it all really.
And who are these IRSP/INLA members you know?
Some may call me a cynic but id say the closest you got to an IRSP/INLA member was when you were salivating over the sunday world.
So anyways my reformist trot troll im calling you out, names please.

[Jolly Red Giant]

Some may call me a cynic but id say the closest you got to an IRSP/INLA member was when you were salivating over the sunday world.
So anyways my reformist trot troll im calling you out, names please.
One fine summer's day about 15-20 years ago (don't remember the exact date) I was sitting enjoying a nice quiet pint with a couple of friends outside a pub located somewhere outside the Pale - sitting at a table nearby was a well-known local member of the INLA. A short time later two more gentlemen (also INLA men) arrived sat down at the table with the above mentioned man, one pulled out a revolver, pointed it at said individual, pulled the trigger and the gun jammed. Needless to say all hell broke lose, tables and chairs went flying and the individual with the target on his chest scattered up the road, vaulted in over a garden wall and started banging on the door of a house (owned by a well known local Garda detective). On the opening of the door, said individual bolted into the house and the other two men scattered.

I won't name the individual involved, I am sure the incident was as embarrassing as it was scary for him but his initials were G.R. This is one of a number of incidents that happened in my local area involving INLA members (most of the incidents revolved around attacks on one another) - and only one was ever known to be involved in any political activity that could remotely be described as productive in working class terms (and despite working on occasions with this individual - the best way of describing this person would be 'a little bit of a head-banger')..

[Andropov]

One fine summer's day about 15-20 years ago (don't remember the exact date) I was sitting enjoying a nice quiet pint with a couple of friends outside a pub located somewhere outside the Pale - sitting at a table nearby was a well-known local member of the INLA. A short time later two more gentlemen (also INLA men) arrived sat down at the table with the above mentioned man, one pulled out a revolver, pointed it at said individual, pulled the trigger and the gun jammed. Needless to say all hell broke lose, tables and chairs went flying and the individual with the target on his chest scattered up the road, vaulted in over a garden wall and started banging on the door of a house (owned by a well known local Garda detective). On the opening of the door, said individual bolted into the house and the other two men scattered.

I won't name the individual involved, I am sure the incident was as embarrassing as it was scary for him but his initials were G.R. This is one of a number of incidents that happened in my local area involving INLA members (most of the incidents revolved around attacks on one another) - and only one was ever known to be involved in any political activity that could remotely be described as productive in working class terms (and despite working on occasions with this individual - the best way of describing this person would be 'a little bit of a head-banger')..
A distinct lack of names, location and accurate dates.
The said incident does sound interesting indeed but surely after said affair there would be some newspaper link or source to verify this interesting turn of events since a "well known garda detective" was involved.
Anyways in summary its been a while since ive read such utter bullshit.
DO BETTER NEXT TIME.

[Jolly Red Giant]

A distinct lack of names, location and accurate dates.
Oh - come on - who keeps a detailed record of all the internal fueds the INLA have been involved in. I was just glad that the gun didn't go off and I would have spent months been harrassed by the cops for information (besides that the guy who was targetted was a 'likeable bollix' and he used by the 'Militant' off of me every month - I was glad to see he managed to escape).



The said incident does sound interesting indeed but surely after said affair there would be some newspaper link or source to verify this interesting turn of events since a "well known garda detective" was involved.
The cop wasn't involved - it was his house and he wasn't home. If I recall correctly the incident could well have made the local paper (not surprisingly I don't keep clippings of the antics of the INLA).



Anyways in summary its been a while since ive read such utter bullshit.
I'll tell you what to do - go and ask one of your well-known INLA members who would be aware of the activities of the INLA outside of Dublin over the past 20 years (they weren't active in that many places) and provide them with the details outlined above. You will find, if they know anything about past internal difficulties in the INLA, that they will be able to recognise the initials G. R. and said incident (rumour had it that the two guys that missed him were subjected to a little payback).

[Andropov]

Oh - come on - who keeps a detailed record of all the internal fueds the INLA have been involved in.
When your a serious revolutionary force there will of course be external forces trying to destablise and cause internal discourse, as is a fact of life.
If our enemys were not attempting to destablise us then I would be worried.

I was just glad that the gun didn't go off and I would have spent months been harrassed by the cops for information
Ohh please, harassed by cops you wouldnt know the meaning.

(besides that the guy who was targetted was a 'likeable bollix' and he used by the 'Militant' off of me every month - I was glad to see he managed to escape).
All interesting footnotes but yet zero concrete evidence.

The cop wasn't involved - it was his house and he wasn't home. If I recall correctly the incident could well have made the local paper (not surprisingly I don't keep clippings of the antics of the INLA).
Since this event did happen according to you and I question the validity of your story perhaps you could prove my scepticism wrong and get the article where it is reported in.
And dont worry you dont need to get a scrap book, just go and get the internet archive of it since you know the location, the names of those involved, the date etc.

I'll tell you what to do - go and ask one of your well-known INLA members who would be aware of the activities of the INLA outside of Dublin over the past 20 years (they weren't active in that many places) and provide them with the details outlined above.
Firstly I dont know of any INLA members.
Secondly you made this claim, not me thus its your responsibility to verify this storey when called out on it.
So tuff titty.

You will find, if they know anything about past internal difficulties in the INLA, that they will be able to recognise the initials G. R. and said incident (rumour had it that the two guys that missed him were subjected to a little payback).
Yes I know a former member of the IRSP who was in the IRSP but never in the INLA.
I also know there was ONE attempt on his life and it didnt happen at a pub, it happened at a school hence why I know your story and you are full of cock.

[Jolly Red Giant]

When your a serious revolutionary force there will of course be external forces trying to destablise and cause internal discourse, as is a fact of life.
If our enemys were not attempting to destablise us then I would be worried.
The INLA didn't need 'enemies' to de-stabilise it - it was perfectly capable of de-stabilising itself on a regular basis.


Firstly I dont know of any INLA members.
You poor deprived child - I could introduce you - but most of the INLA people I knew are dead and the rest done a runner to avoid being dead.

EDIT: - Just typed his name into google and guess what - there is no reference to the incident - but the guys name pops up all over the place tagged to the INLA and IRSP. Shouldn't be too difficult for you to figure it out.

[Andropov]

The INLA didn't need 'enemies' to de-stabilise it - it was perfectly capable of de-stabilising itself on a regular basis.
Yet again neglecting to critically analyse the situation.
Every feud stemed from some form of external involvement.
From the sticks to IPLO so dont feed me that tabloid sensationalist bullshit.

You poor deprived child - I could introduce you - but most of the INLA people I knew are dead and the rest done a runner to avoid being dead.
I dont really see myself as being deprived by not feeling the need to name drop and write sensationalist storys on the internet for teenagers when all and sunder here know your talking out your fucking arse. We can start name dropping about the circles you move in and those are very very far from any INLA activity.

EDIT: - Just typed his name into google and guess what - there is no reference to the incident
Ohhh well there is a surprise.

but the guys name pops up all over the place tagged to the INLA and IRSP. Shouldn't be too difficult for you to figure it out.
You seem to misunderstand how these debates work.
You started name dropping and writing sensationalist storys that reeked of bullshit hence why I called you out on it. Now when asked for some evidence, names, dates, locations and articles reporting it you have come up short.
As such we can only conclude you are talking out your arse.

[Soldier of life]

Less of the bullshit anecdotes please.

[Jolly Red Giant]

We can start name dropping about the circles you move in and those are very very far from any INLA activity.
Damned right they are far from any INLA activity - activity that was even more counter-productive than the Provos.



You seem to misunderstand how these debates work.
No I don't - During my own political involvement over the past 30 years I have personal knowledge of the activities of a small number of INLA and IRSP activists. All bar one never engaged in any political activity remotely productive to the class struggle. Three were either shot at or beaten to a pulp during internal INLA disagreements - two engaged in local gunbattles with cops trying to avoid arrest.

My experience of the few IRSP members (that I know) in the trade union movement and that would even bother to be active - varied from sheer incompetence to downright arrogance - and in all cases doing things that benefitted the union bureaucracy.

I have provided you with adequate information for you to determine the person involved - go ask him if it happened (and if you can't find him - or if he's dead, there are several prominent INLA/IRSP and Ex- indivudals who are well aware of the particular incident). There are no newspaper reports - it was a minor incident in the scheme of things and there is no online archive for the local papers.



Every feud stemed from some form of external involvement.
From the sticks to IPLO so dont feed me that tabloid sensationalist bullshit.
Every feud stemmed from the internal political contradictions of trying to marry two philosophies at opposite ends of the political spectrum - reactionary nationalism and revolutionary socialism. Every single political organisation that has tried to have an armed wing and a political wing and to operate on both mutually exclusive spheres have inevitably ended up in splits, feuds and killings - from the OIRA to the PIRA to the INLA and their various offshoots. To suggest anything else is to refuse to acknowledge reality and refusing to learn the lessons from past history - something the IRSM, more than most, are completely incapable of understanding.

So -

Do I give a fiddlers if you believe me or not - Of course I don't.

Do I believe that you are living in a deluded world about the history, impact and potential of the IRSM - absolutely.

Do I think you will ever learn - possibly, some have - you are far more likely to either completely drop out of political activity or do something stupid that will get you into a lot of unneccessary and counter-productive trouble.

[Andropov]

Damned right they are far from any INLA activity - activity that was even more counter-productive than the Provos.
Ahh yes the classic middle aged trendy.
After your youth spent being the "radical" and trendy left supporter that you are you then rise to your bourgeois origins and let me guess occupy a very well to do middle class job?
But at the weekend and on the internet you can still live up the big bad radical.
Anything close?

No I don't - During my own political involvement over the past 30 years I have personal knowledge of the activities of a small number of INLA and IRSP activists. All bar one never engaged in any political activity remotely productive to the class struggle. Three were either shot at or beaten to a pulp during internal INLA disagreements - two engaged in local gunbattles with cops trying to avoid arrest.
Yet again more unsubstantiated conjecture, fairly irrelevant to the debate at hand since you have been shown time and again that you are incapable of verifying your outlandish claims.

My experience of the few IRSP members (that I know) in the trade union movement and that would even bother to be active - varied from sheer incompetence to downright arrogance - and in all cases doing things that benefitted the union bureaucracy.
Yet again zero relevancey since it is yet again your own unsubstantiated alleged personal experiences.
You really dont understand how these debates work.

I have provided you with adequate information for you to determine the person involved - go ask him if it happened (and if you can't find him - or if he's dead, there are several prominent INLA/IRSP and Ex- indivudals who are well aware of the particular incident). There are no newspaper reports - it was a minor incident in the scheme of things and there is no online archive for the local papers.
No no you havent.
You have not provided me with dates, names, locations or secondary sources verifying your fantacys.
So in other words, DO BETTER NEXT TIME.

Every feud stemmed from the internal political contradictions of trying to marry two philosophies at opposite ends of the political spectrum reactionary nationalism and revolutionary socialism. -
Wow your grasp of the politics of National Liberation are astounding.
Your failure to recognise how National Liberation of the oppressed is productive and indeed progressive in the class struggle only merely shows your own gaping chasms of knowledge on Marxism.
Your failure to differentiate a nations sense of nationalism when under the yolk of imperialism in comparison to the Nationalism of the Imperialist is telling.
Marx himself stated....
"The nationalism of the workers belonging to an oppressor nation binds them to their rulers and only does harm to themselves, while the nationalism of an oppressed nation can lead them to fight back against those rulers." - Karl Marx
You are merely showing yourself up yet again as an ill educated politically immature fool who throws out unsubstantiated anecdotes combined with an embaressing grasp of Marxism.
Never the less this is enjoyable.

Every single political organisation that has tried to have an armed wing and a political wing and to operate on both mutually exclusive spheres have inevitably ended up in splits, feuds and killings - from the OIRA to the PIRA to the INLA and their various offshoots. To suggest anything else is to refuse to acknowledge reality and refusing to learn the lessons from past history - something the IRSM, more than most, are completely incapable of understanding.
So you are stating that having an armed wing and a political wing will ultimately lead to splits and feuds?
Are you serious?
Where in the name of god is that in a material marxist understanding?
Yes of course there have been splits, just as with nearly every left wing organisation in the world, your failure to recognise that is telling yet again.
Trying to fob off splits and feuds onto the existance of armed wings boggles the mind, there is nothing inherently condusive to splits and feuds by having an armed wing since as I have stated before literally every left wing organisation in the world was either created from a split or had a split.
You really arent a Marxist are you?

Do I give a fiddlers if you believe me or not - Of course I don't.
So we can dismiss your spurious anecdotes as the irrelevant drivel they are?

Do I believe that you are living in a deluded world about the history, impact and potential of the IRSM - absolutely.
Its not what you believe, its what you can analytically prove as a Marxist.
Which you have shown yourself clearly not to be with your petty-bourgeois bile and slander devoid of any Marxism.

Do I think you will ever learn - possibly, some have - you are far more likely to either completely drop out of political activity or do something stupid that will get you into a lot of unneccessary and counter-productive trouble.
More petty-bourgeois rehtorric.
JRG it is you who needs to gain a greater analytical grasp of Marxism on the material context in which Ireland finds itself in today.
You need to drop your emotive and subjective drivel in regaurds to the IRSM and actually analyse it as a Marxist not as a Sunday World reader.
Believe me I have many criticisms of the IRSM as a whole, in today and in the past but they are based on a Marxist analytical outlook not on your irrelevant subjective drivel.

[robbo203]

Wow your grasp of the politics of National Liberation are astounding.
Your failure to recognise how National Liberation of the oppressed is productive and indeed progressive in the class struggle only merely shows your own gaping chasms of knowledge on Marxism.
Your failure to differentiate a nations sense of nationalism when under the yolk of imperialism in comparison to the Nationalism of the Imperialist is telling.
Marx himself stated....
"The nationalism of the workers belonging to an oppressor nation binds them to their rulers and only does harm to themselves, while the nationalism of an oppressed nation can lead them to fight back against those rulers." - Karl Marx
.


In this instance Marx was plainly wrong. However it has to be said that at bottom Marx was not a nationalist. He was a cosmopolitan and argued that the "workers have no country". He only supported nationalist struggles (and very selectively at that) insofar as it promoted capitalism (and hence its gravedgger, the working class) at the expense of reactionary pre-capitalist elements. I think he was ill advised to pick sides in this way. But at any rate all that is now irrelevant and has long been irrelevant since capitalism became a global economic system.

To invoke marxism in the support of nationalism today is frankly pathetic

[PRC-UTE]

In this instance Marx was plainly wrong. However it has to be said that at bottom Marx was not a nationalist. He was a cosmopolitan and argued that the "workers have no country". He only supported nationalist struggles (and very selectively at that) insofar as it promoted capitalism (and hence its gravedgger, the working class) at the expense of reactionary pre-capitalist elements. I think he was ill advised to pick sides in this way. But at any rate all that is now irrelevant and has long been irrelevant since capitalism became a global economic system.


Since you don't grasp the difference between a nationalist and an anti-imperialist, I don't think you should be lecturing anyone.

You're misrepresenting Marx by omission. He thought that a victory in Ireland over the most reactionary, leftover refuse of the British nation (as Engels might have phrased it, since he described the Slavs that way) would assist the working class struggle in Britain. It wasn't exclusively the issue of pre-capitalist economic modes, as he also stressed this was also an issue within the British working class. This was something many Irish republicans and British communists came to grasp through practice- it's not as if republicans refused to ally or correspond with British communists, who they often saw as comrades. Further, Marx also had a tendency to support mass struggle, even if it were attracted to democratic demands, very similar to the great Ernest Mandel.

More importantly, you've completely taken that Marx quote out of context. He was arguing that the form of revolution would be national. To finish the quote you quoted out of context:


The working men have no country. We cannot take from them what they have not got. Since the proletariat must first of all acquire political supremacy, must rise to be the leading class of the nation, must constitute itself the nation, it is so far, itself national, though not in the bourgeois sense of the word.



To invoke marxism in the support of nationalism today is frankly pathetic

To take Marx's quotes out of context to give them the opposite of the meaning he intended is pathetic.