Juche - a major world religion?

[Tifosi]

Juche is the only government-authorized ideology in North Korea, to the point of excluding all other religions. "Juche" means "self-reliance" in the Korean language. Some writers cited in the Adherents.com database (under "Juche" as well as "Kimilsungism") classify Juche as a North Korean form of Marxist Communism. Juche began in the 1950s and is the official philosophy promulgated by the North Korean government and educational system. Its promoters describe Juche as simply a secular, ethical philosophy and not a religion. But, from a sociological viewpoint Juche is clearly a religion, and in many ways is even more overtly religious than Soviet-era Communism or Chinese Maoism.

Thomas J. Belke has written a book describing Juche as the newest world religion, with "more adherents than Judaism, Sikhism, Jainism or Zoroastrianism". Note: Any researchers interested in Juche or religion in North Korea will need to read this volume, but be aware that the "Christian Study" part of the title is not to be taken lightly. This book is not an objective ethnographic survey of Juche. Belke presents a wealth of fascinating factual information you won't find anywhere else, but the perspective is overtly Evangelical. Some readers who are not Evangelicals -- and some who are -- may be annoyed by this approach, but most serious researchers will recognize that the book has value to sociologists both in the unprecedented window it opens into contemporary North Korea, as well as the glimpse into Evangelical apologetic thought.).
Certainly there are more "followers" of Juche, by nature of their nationality, than there are Jews or Jains. (Belke's book reports 23 million Juche adherents, essentially the entire population of North Korea, but the author and international news services agree that the population of the country has decreased to about 19 million during the current famine.) Belke reports a few centers in India, and Juche web sites indicate some centers in Australia, Europe and Japan. But despite the presence of these outreach centers set up the North Korean government, there do not appear to be any established communities of adherents outside of North Korea.
Some other religions which exist substantially only within a single country have been excluded from this list of "Major Religions of the World." It is true that Juche has only a nominal presence outside of North Korea. But it has so many adherents, is so influential in their lives, and is so different from any other religious system, that including it on this list may be necessary in order to accurately reflect the total world religious economy. As with the other religions listed here, inclusion on this list does not constitute endorsement, merely recognition of Juche as a statistically significant distinct religion. Other than geographic isolation, the other argument for excluding Juche from this list of major religions would be that it is not a completely independent system, but rather than a subset of Communism. (For numerical purposes, Communists who are not adherents of an established religion are included in the "Secular" category above.) The North Korean system is historically derived, in large part, from Soviet and Chinese Communism; during the 1960s there would have been no reason to draw any distinctions. But today's Juche has developed into a distinct, unique system, and has officially repudiated its Marxist-Leninist roots. While we recognize there may be validity in continued classification of Juche as a highly "heretical" subset of Communism or general secularism, it seems that, on balance, to do so today is no more accurate than continuing to classify Buddhism as a Hindu sect. Revision to the status of Juche on this list may be forthcoming pending further research and developments.


What you think. I'm not sure on it :confused:

[Dimentio]

It has some traits in common with religion. It is an extreme example of an ideology built around a foundation myth and a personality cult. Just read the books written by the two Kims. Their teachings are covering all aspects of life.

[Revy]

A song popularized by the government says "Kim Jong-il, we cannot live without you, our country cannot exist without you".

Also, the fact that the deceased Kim Il-sung is given the title "Eternal President", and the Juche calendar gives Year 1 as the year of his birth, 1912 (an interesting coincidence, Kim Il-sung was born on the same day that the Titanic sank).

[spiltteeth]

Juche is considered the 10th largest religion according to the world enclopedia. Technically it is not a religion, but sociologically it functions just like a religion.

In any society that attempts to wipe out religion, it seems to me, 'god-substitutes' pop up. According to dissidents who have escaped N. Korea (so take it with a grain of salt) there are foundational myths with the birth of the two Kim's- double rainbows, peach trees miraculously sprouting, albino sea cumbers coming into existence etc, that are not part of Juche.

[Tatarin]

I don't get it. So do followers in other countries uphold Kim Il Sung as some sort of god, or is it exclusively made for Koreans?
:confused:

[spiltteeth]

Well, Juche formed as a reaction to N. Korea's difficult situation. The US prevents it from trading with other nations. Since its isolated and constantly under threat of attack from the US (the US has tens of thousands of troops in Japan and S.Korea just on standby to invade, plus war ships off N.Korea, plus Colin Powell said the US ought to "Burn North Korea to a charred landscape") it needed an ideology to unite its people in military discipline and self-reliance, hence Juche.

As a theory it really only applies to specific situations. As a quasi-religious ideology, it is specifically fitted to unite the N. Korean people behind the Kim's dynasty.

[al8]

I think Juche has to be technically a religion to be a religion. Drug- tv- and computer-game-binging is not technically a religion either, but can serve some of its functions, however we do not seriously apply the religion label to them because it would mean playing loose with terms.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

So, it's a bit like dialectics, then?

[Das war einmal]

Soi, it's a bit like dialectics, then?

Do you mind, we are trying to have a serious discussion here.

[cb9's_unity]

I guess I'm confused about how a "subset of communism" could be confused as a religion. Either true communism and socialism can include government propagandized fanatical and mystical leader worship or the policies and government of North Korea don't have much to do with communism and socialism at all. Hopefully most of us can see the latter is the case.

[scarletghoul]

Juche is not a religion. It is a political/philosophical ideology based on Marxism-Leninism which is asserted as the official ideology of the DPRK in a dogmatic fashion.

I wonder if any of these people who label Juche a religion have actually read articles on the Juche theory, or have just heard western reports on the brainwashed North Korean robot-people and the crazy cult of personality of the maniac infantile dictator. (by the by, cult of personality is not an essential part of Juche, more of the dogmatic North Korean propaganda, which is not the same thing at all. And of course it's present in many other countries, so to regard Juche as a religion based on the Kim cult you would have to first mistake the cult as an essential part of the Juche idea and second regard all other countries' official state lines that have cults of personality as religions.)


Juche is the only government-authorized ideology in North Korea, to the point of excluding all other religions.This is a lie. There is (limited) freedom of religion in North Korea. They have churches and stuff. Of course, Juche's foundations of Marxist materialism make it difficult to adhere to Juche and be religious (just like most Marxist-Leninists aren't religious) but certainly Juche does not replace religions except in the same sense that science replaces religion.


from a sociological viewpoint Juche is clearly a religion, and in many ways is even more overtly religious than Soviet-era Communism or Chinese Maoism.A clear indicator of the incorrect and anti-communist attitude of whoever wrote this.


Belke reports a few centers in India, and Juche web sites indicate some centers in Australia, Europe and Japan. But despite the presence of these outreach centers set up the North Korean government, there do not appear to be any established communities of adherents outside of North Korea.This is because it is a political tendency, and not a religion.


Other than geographic isolation, the other argument for excluding Juche from this list of major religions would be that it is not a completely independent system, but rather than a subset of Communism. (For numerical purposes, Communists who are not adherents of an established religion are included in the "Secular" category above.) The North Korean system is historically derived, in large part, from Soviet and Chinese Communism; during the 1960s there would have been no reason to draw any distinctions. But today's Juche has developed into a distinct, unique system, and has officially repudiated its Marxist-Leninist roots. While we recognize there may be validity in continued classification of Juche as a highly "heretical" subset of Communism or general secularism, it seems that, on balance, to do so today is no more accurate than continuing to classify Buddhism as a Hindu sect.So they just outline that Juche developed as a current of communism. Now when and how did it become a religion? They do not say, because they do not know, because it did not.


Revision to the status of Juche on this list may be forthcoming pending further researchDamn straight.

[Spawn of Stalin]

Calling Juche a religion is just another way to demonise the Kims. I believe there are a few of Kim il-Sung's works on MIA, probably best to read what he had to say before coming to any rash conclusions. Having read quite a lot on it myself, I can safely say that Juche is as much a religion as Leninism is an ice cream flavour.

[BobKKKindle$]

I don't think it's particularly helpful to debate whether Juche is a religion or not, most of all because the definition of religion is a subject of intense debate amongst theologians and philosophers, although, as far as I'm aware, there is a general consensus that being the follower of a religion does not necessitate belief in an omnipotent god or set of divine beings, in which case it might be possible to describe Juche as a form of religious belief even if people in North Korea do not actually believe that their leaders have divine powers or are in any way super-human. A more interesting issue to discuss is the role that Juche plays in North Korean society, and how this role compares with the role that Marxism has historically been assigned. Marxism consists of a set of ideas and analyzes that enable the proletariat to understand its position in capitalist society and thereby become the conscious subject of history, or, in Marx's terminology, a class for itself. Juche is what Marx would have described as an ideology because its main function is to obscure and justify the prevailing contradictions of North Korean society so as to enable the ruling class to maintain its position of hegemony and defend itself against threats from below (in essence, in order to produce false consciousness) and in this sense Juche can actually be described as a religion, or as having the same function as religion, because religious ideas, whilst they have occasionally been used by the oppressed to articulate their oppression and challenge the legitimacy of class society, have historically signified a key ideological weapon in the hands of ruling classes, that, like all ideologies, is used to complement the violence exercised by the state as an instrument of class rule.

The Stalinists in this thread would have us believe that Juche can be treated as a "strand" of communist theory, i.e. as a set of ideas that have been developed by individuals with a genuine commitment to the emancipation of the working class, and in taking this stance they have totally neglected the status of Juche as an ideology and what is distinctive about Marx's understanding of ideologies, specifically his observation that ideas cannot be considered in the abstract but must always be situated in the context of class relations and antagonisms, and his related thesis that the ruling class does not rule by force alone but also resorts to ideas to convince the oppressed that they are incapable of running society themselves and that whatever insecurity and hardship they endure is not the result of their position in society as members of a class that lacks access to the means of production but other forces, such as their personal failings as individuals, or, in the context of North Korea, the impact of imperialism. These ideas, are, by virtue of political and economic position of the ruling class, "in every epoch the ruling ideas", unless they are challenged by revolutionaries.

[gorillafuck]

But, from a sociological viewpoint Juche is clearly a religion, and in many ways is even more overtly religious than Soviet-era Communism or Chinese Maoism.
I dislike Juche but this shows the stupidity of the author. Soviet style socialism and Maoism are not at all religions.

[spiltteeth]

The official government statistics state that North Korea has 10,000 Protestants, 10,000 Buddhists, 4,000 Catholics and 40,000 members of the Chondogyo Young Friends Party, a government approved group based on a traditional religious movement. South Korean church groups give much higher estimates but these are only estimates. At least two Protestant and one Catholic Church have operated in Pyongyang since 1988. One of the Protestant Churches is dedicated to the memory of “Great Leader” Kim Il Sung’s
mother, who was a Presbyterian deacon.

Juche is not a religion, but it functions similarly in that it promotes universal values, demands obedience to elected authorities, and promotes a specific way of life.

As far as how it functions as an ideology to support the regime , here is an article :
http://journals.isss.org/index.php/proceedings52nd/article/viewFile/938/369

However, so little is really known, and the western media propagandizes so much, and there is a great deal of racism and prejudice in presenting info about N. Korea, that its important to be critical.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Red Resistance:


Do you mind, we are trying to have a serious discussion here.

I was being serious.

[Walt]

It has some traits in common with religion. It is an extreme example of an ideology built around a foundation myth and a personality cult. Just read the books written by the two Kims. Their teachings are covering all aspects of life.
I would do that, but sadly the works of the two Kims have yet to be translated in English (only Italian I think).

Someone start translating!

[The Author]

They do exist in English. I used to have access to website links which had their Collected Works in English. But I lost them a long time ago. Nevertheless, I recommend reading some of the writings before passing judgment on what Juche is, as some in this thread have already done.

[Walt]

They do exist in English. I used to have access to website links which had their Collected Works in English. But I lost them a long time ago. Nevertheless, I recommend reading some of the writings before passing judgment on what Juche is, as some in this thread have already done.
No worries. I've done extensive studies on the Juche philosophy- I've even ordered Alejandro's new book (leader of the KFA) which was quite interesting, but I still think that man is insane.

I'm surprised that you've found works of Kim in English, I've searched over a year for anything like that. If someone has a link to such things, I'd love that!

[spiltteeth]

The Kim's work can be found here :
http://juche.v.wol.ne.jp/defaulte.htm

and here, also has a bunch of pro-Kim video's, and discussion board :
http://www.songunpoliticsstudygroup.org/

[Walt]

The Kim's work can be found here :


and here, also has a bunch of pro-Kim video's, and discussion board :

Thanks a lot!

If you actually start reading into the Juche philosophy, it's quite enlightening and an all around good set of beliefs to surround yourself with- but I honestly think the DPRK is straying away from the core beliefs.

[spiltteeth]

On religion :
Abstracts from President KIM IL SUNG’s Reminiscences “WITH THE CENTURY” Vol. 5

One year the Rev. Kim Song Rak, a Korean resident in the United States, paid a visit to the homeland. During a luncheon with him, I advised him to pray before taking meals. At the time the Rev. Kim Song Rak was extremely surprised at my advice. He was puzzled that the President of a communist state was as kind as to show concern about the prayers of a Christian.
I had not intended to make a good impression or planned to seek a propaganda effect and make out that we do not take a negative attitude towards religion and its believers, when I advised the Rev. Kim Song Rak to say prayers before the meal that day. I was motivated by the hospitality of a typical host, eager to entertain his guest with honor and by the pure humanitarian desire to help him, a faithful Christian, in his life, freely adhere to Christian rules during his stay in the homeland.
The provision on religious freedom stipulated in the Constitution of our country is not an empty phrase or promise.
We have never trampled upon freedom of faith or oppressed its believers. If there were men of religion, who were punished or suffered political trials under the Government of me Republic, they were criminals or traitors to the nation, who had sold out the interests of our country and people.

As for our younger generation, no young man or child believes that they will be blessed and have access to Paradise, only when they worship “God”, “Heaven” or Buddha. Consequently they do not embrace religion or join religious bodies.
At present, as in the past, we do not consider religion as bad or persecute its followers. On the contrary, the state builds churches free of charge for them and provides them with living quarters. A few years ago a religious department was newly instituted in the faculty of history of Kim Il Sung University to produce religious specialists. In our country the activities of all religious organizations and men of religion enjoy solid legal protection as in other countries.
It is said that there are a large number of religious people in south Korea. They include quite a few patriots and fighters, active on the three fronts of democracy, reunification and peace.
The increase in the number of patriots seeking an alliance with communism among the religionists in south Korea and abroad does not necessarily mean that they are adherents of The Communist Manifesto. The bond of union between us and them is provided by the idea and sentiments, based on love for the country and nation.
Such ties also existed in the 1930s. It was the principle of the united front, elucidated in the Ten-Point Program of the ARF, that we could join hands with any social circle, which loved the country and nation. This principle united us with Tojong Pak In Jin.
Some people distort our idea on the freedom of faith as a conciliatory trick aimed at inveigling religious people into the “web” of the united front. Such a lie will never pass, however plausible it may sound. The warm relations I had with O Tong Jin, Son Jong Do, Choe Tong O, Kang Je Ha and other believers were based on pure feelings of love for the country and nation and had nothing to do with any stratagem.
I had no intention to transform them into followers of Marx or supporters of the Communist Party. I only respected their faith, personality and human rights.

[Das war einmal]

Red Resistance:



I was being serious.


Its good you mention it, now we know that at least one person is taking it seriously

[Black Sheep]

All i see is isolated bureaucratic countries, claiming to be socialist, coming up with incredibly stupid stuff that make socialism look like lunatics' hobby. :cursing:

But fuck it, hands off the dprk.