I am turning capitalist im becoming one help!

[Death By Starbucks.]

Two days ago i watched Entourage, i thought in America everyone has a fair shot at becoming rich.
I then cursed at my self for being so weak and falling for american propoganda.
But lets look at our regimes in history.
North Korea= Brutality and totalitarianism
same in USSR vietnam China.
We all go mad when we hear of police brutality, killings of innocents in iraq and afghanistan, yet we ignore all the horrific injustises of communism.
My Cousin went to cuba 2 weeks ago and she went into cities like cienfuegos and santa clara and she said the hate of castro and the corrupt gov of cuba is overwhelming.
she asked a woman was she worried about fidels health and everyone on the street started saying why they wouldnt care if he died or why they want to leave cuba, even recording some on her corder.


I understand Che wanting to stop yankee impearialism and i understand that with capitalism there will always be opressors and the oppressed, but in communism there will be the political elite and the proletariat.
When che went to rusia he went to a kremlin officials house and saw their rather beautiful plates and remarked "so the russian proletariat eats off french porcolin.
Also Fidel was cleary just a liberal bourgesie who joined forces with the USSR to protect itself from the US and to gain aid.
I am starting to feel democratic socialism is the only way to progress as a planet, when a communist will purge a country of people who dont agree with the ruling party you know somethings wrong.
We should concentrate on national liberation and dismantling nations like iran who are still being ran in a religeous distopia.

Tell me why i am wrong comrades please, i really want to be.

[Pogue]

Two days ago i watched Entourage, i thought in America everyone has a fair shot at becoming rich.
I then cursed at my self for being so weak and falling for american propoganda.
But lets look at our regimes in history.
North Korea= Brutality and totalitarianism
same in USSR vietnam China.
We all go mad when we hear of police brutality, killings of innocents in iraq and afghanistan, yet we ignore all the horrific injustises of communism.
My Cousin went to cuba 2 weeks ago and she went into cities like cienfuegos and santa clara and she said the hate of castro and the corrupt gov of cuba is overwhelming.
she asked a woman was she worried about fidels health and everyone on the street started saying why they wouldnt care if he died or why they want to leave cuba, even recording some on her corder.


I understand Che wanting to stop yankee impearialism and i understand that with capitalism there will always be opressors and the oppressed, but in communism there will be the political elite and the proletariat.
When che went to rusia he went to a kremlin officials house and saw their rather beautiful plates and remarked "so the russian proletariat eats off french porcolin.
Also Fidel was cleary just a liberal bourgesie who joined forces with the USSR to protect itself from the US and to gain aid.
I am starting to feel democratic socialism is the only way to progress as a planet, when a communist will purge a country of people who dont agree with the ruling party you know somethings wrong.
We should concentrate on national liberation and dismantling nations like iran who are still being ran in a religeous distopia.

Tell me why i am wrong comrades please, i really want to be.

I don't advocate things like what happened in USSR, China, Cuba, etc. I think they are examples of what we are fighting against, i.e. societies where the working class misses out on controlling their own lives at the expense of a rich few, i.e. a ruling class and a working class.

I agree with some fo yuor analyses of those countries, and I also agree it is odd some people criticise the brutality of the current world powers whilst also excusing the atrocities commited by Stalin, Mao etc, but again, this does not affect me.

Despite all of this I am still ana dvocate of working class revolution. You may find this odd because I share your concerns.

I want to outline a position to you which cuts through alot of the usual dogma you get associated with this question, alot of it hypocritical or simply just false.

You see I understand your anxieities, I think they are part of what alot of us face, i.e. feeling a revolution can't or wont work, and so you begin to look for what you think is reliastic, what we can actually advocate.

What I found was the way to get around this is to keep your politics basic and transparent for yourself. I have done this. All you have to do mate is basically support the working class, support what is in the interests of the working class. Not lead them, not create socialism for or with them, but support them. What does this mean? Well, a number of obvious, clear-cut things. For example, supporting working class workplace organisation into unions and subsequent struggles like strikes, supporting and advancing their cause as your own (which it is, if your working class). This means opposing fascism. This means opposing the electoral facade (in clear opposition to your understandable but in my opinion incorrect opinion on democratic socialism). This means quite simply always acting in the itnerests of the class. It doesn't matter whether or not things look impossible - so what if through my support with members of my class in strikes doesn't cause a revolution - you can't plan things out like that. But all I will know is I always stood for the interests of my class.

I think this is the only acceptable form of politics for working class people today. No grand visions beyond what is realistic and obvious, no dogma, no 'picking sides' in conflicts where we choose a lesser evil, just clear, solid class politics. I hope this view helps and that I got across what I wanted to say clearly.

[Olerud]

I know man it seems like a waste of time sometimes but just hang in. I'm suprised at what the Cubans said about Castro to your sister or whatever, I thought the general consensus was that they respected him. Trying to defend Stalin is a whole different story though :crying:

[Death By Starbucks.]

BTW this is not how i personally feel i still believe but i wanted to hear some comrades views.

Great answer but i think we can still triumph

[Death By Starbucks.]

Yeah i know i was a little shocked too mate.

[The Idler]

If you're saying you find yourself attracted to democratic socialism rather than "official" communism (actually state capitalism), then you've little to worry about.

If however the title of the thread is accurate, then consider the billion people globally suffering from hunger as of June this year, and how best they can be served.

[bailey_187]

But lets look at our regimes in history.
North Korea= Brutality and totalitarianism
same in USSR vietnam China.


You dont think anything was acheived by the working class in USSR, China?
The working class of these countries would disagree.
Explain your claim of the USSR being "totalitarian" and full of "brutality" further.



We all go mad when we hear of police brutality, killings of innocents in iraq and afghanistan, yet we ignore all the horrific injustises of communism.

Such as....??



My Cousin went to cuba 2 weeks ago and she went into cities like cienfuegos and santa clara and she said the hate of castro and the corrupt gov of cuba is overwhelming.

Go to Haiti and ask how they feel about their government. Thats is, if you are able to walk around the cities of Haiti and talk to locals without a hungry youts stealing your stuff.




When che went to rusia he went to a kremlin officials house and saw their rather beautiful plates and remarked "so the russian proletariat eats off french porcolin.

Great. What did he say about China though? Korea?

[Death By Starbucks.]

he said the chinese showed a higher socialist morality.
I do not believe the stuff i typed i just wanted to gage fellow Reds reactions to a comrade having trouble with the unpleasant side effects of revolution.
But the cuba thing is true and i do hate castro for his air of leftist bourgesie.

[Death By Starbucks.]

i am sure he was either a maoist or a trotskyist

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

I love the idea of Capitalism the idea of bettering myself and my conditions though hard work and intelligence and competing against others seems not only fulfilling but entertaining and fun the latter in my opinion is what life is all about. Unfortunately its not like that in real life , for such a system to succeed many people need to be shat on smacked up and left in a puddle of blood, I don't approve of that and while I am the least Communist looking Communist there is (I don't buy alot of clothes instead I save up to buy the top end of the range nike trainers , Adidas watch or whatever) I do object not only as someone who grew up amongst teenage mothers being bullied because they didn't speak like they had a plumb in there mouths and not comming from "respectable" families, I also went to a school where it was not unknown pupils to get shanked because all the good money went into bringing up the respectable ****s at the grammar and tuition schools. Quite frankly I would feel a traitor if I did'nt lend my support every now and again to the movement that will hoist those responsible from trees and ensure that such pricks never emerge again. It is also worth pointing out that although having nice items is absolutely fantastic humans are predatory apes and not magpies and the ability to give yourself opportunities in life is rather appealing especially the idea of not having to acquire vast amounts of money I wouldn't otherwise want to reach them.

[bailey_187]

i am sure he was either a maoist or a trotskyist

He was neither but the often quoted criticisms of the USSR by Che are never followed by his more relevant quotes praising China and DPR Korea

[Rakhmetov]

Two days ago i watched Entourage, i thought in America everyone has a fair shot at becoming rich.
I then cursed at my self for being so weak and falling for american propoganda.
But lets look at our regimes in history.
North Korea= Brutality and totalitarianism
same in USSR vietnam China.
We all go mad when we hear of police brutality, killings of innocents in iraq and afghanistan, yet we ignore all the horrific injustises of communism.
My Cousin went to cuba 2 weeks ago and she went into cities like cienfuegos and santa clara and she said the hate of castro and the corrupt gov of cuba is overwhelming.
she asked a woman was she worried about fidels health and everyone on the street started saying why they wouldnt care if he died or why they want to leave cuba, even recording some on her corder.


I understand Che wanting to stop yankee impearialism and i understand that with capitalism there will always be opressors and the oppressed, but in communism there will be the political elite and the proletariat.
When che went to rusia he went to a kremlin officials house and saw their rather beautiful plates and remarked "so the russian proletariat eats off french porcolin.
Also Fidel was cleary just a liberal bourgesie who joined forces with the USSR to protect itself from the US and to gain aid.
I am starting to feel democratic socialism is the only way to progress as a planet, when a communist will purge a country of people who dont agree with the ruling party you know somethings wrong.
We should concentrate on national liberation and dismantling nations like iran who are still being ran in a religeous distopia.

Tell me why i am wrong comrades please, i really want to be.

Satan, I cast you out in the name of Jesus! The spirit has been lifted, hallelujah!

[Death By Starbucks.]

lol:D:D

[Jethro Tull]

But lets look at our regimes in history.
North Korea= Brutality and totalitarianism
same in USSR vietnam China.

you don't have to be a capitalist to recognize these facts.

my analysis is that the ussr, prc, socialist republic of vietnam, republica de cuba, d.p.r.k., etc. are/were capitalist regimes.

i'm not the only self-proclaimed communist to make this argument, either. not by far.


My Cousin went to cuba 2 weeks ago and she went into cities like cienfuegos and santa clara and she said the hate of castro and the corrupt gov of cuba is overwhelming.exactly. yet very few of these individuals will be inspired to say anything good about u.s. capitalists either.


but in communism there will be the political elite and the proletariat.wrong, you're just getting confused because some bourgeois states call their ruling ideology "communist".


Also Fidel was cleary just a liberal bourgesie who joined forces with the USSR to protect itself from the US and to gain aid.yes exactly, all the more reason to fight the liberal bourgeoisie


I am starting to feel democratic socialism is the only way to progress as a planet, when a communist will purge a country of people who dont agree with the ruling party you know somethings wrong.che, mao, etc. are the "democratic socialists". democratic socialism is a failed bourgeois ideology. it's time to create genuine communism, which means proletarian self-abolition and the destruction of the centralized state aparatus.


We should concentrate on national liberationall nations must be liberated, from both traditional colonialism and neo-colonialism, from the capitalist structure, from official political projects, from all alternatives to communism.


and dismantling nations like iran who are still being ran in a religeous distopia.i assume you mean dismantling the iranian state, not nation. (the idea of "dismantling the iranian nation" entails genocide) either you're suggesting self-proclaimed "democratic socialists" such as yourself support the other side against iran in a hypothetical inter-imperialist rivalry, or you're suggesting that we, the workers of the world, refuse to resist oppression in solidarity with iran. this is foolish.

iran is not a "religious dystopia". there is a religious right in iran, like everywhere else, but iran operates in the same way all other caitalist states operate. it is no better or worse than any other capitalist state.

[Death By Starbucks.]

no i meant the line between religeon and politics should be absolute, to force a nation to adhere to it and brainwashing children to islam is sick as is the catholic hold on ireland.
religeon cannot be a reason to ban women going out in public alone like saudi.

[Jethro Tull]

no i meant the line between religeon and politics should be absolute, to force a nation to adhere to it and brainwashing children to islam is sick

i disagree with your analysis. islam is no more brainwashing than any other religion. oppressive patriarchal religions prevail everywhere on this globe. most of the major world religions (christianity, islam, judaism, hindiusm, buddhism, taoism, traditional european paganism, traditional african spirituality, traditional american indian spirituality, traitional polynesian spirituality, etc.) are mostly worthwhile intellectual traditions that have been corrupted.

the concept of "seperation of politics in religion" is only necessary from a bourgeois frame-of-mind. the communist seeks to abolish "politics" (as the word is used in this context) and - if atheist - abolish religion, or if spiritual, (such as myself) integrate a healthy spiritual attitude into all other aspects of life. if spirituality is a vald aspect of human existence, (which others would argue it is not, i disagree) it should play a part in the "political", e.g. our daily interactions with each other and the world around us.


as is the catholic hold on ireland.

i'm confused, do you support the genocidal protestant settlers?


religeon cannot be a reason to ban women going out in public alone like saudi.

women are oppressed everywhere, not just in saudi arabia. in the u.s., for example, surviving spousal abuse (a crime that, statistically speaking, predominately effects women) and giving birth are "pre-existing conditions" that the health insurance industry can use to deny you medical coverage. also in the u.s. a man recently went into a pittsburgh gym and killed and injured a bunch of woman because he hadn't had a romantic relationship with a woman in decades. breast implant surgery, rhinoplasty, botox injections, and other physically harmful cosmetic surgeries are prevailant, as is anorexia among women, and the use of stilettos and other footwear which can cause severe back-pain after continuous use. among black women it is popular to absorb toxic chemicals into the body via the hair and scalp in an attemt to give one's hair the texture of the typical white woman. (it is also not unknown for some black women to bleach their skin to look more white) where i live, assaulting a random person is a felony, whereas beating one's spouse is a misdemeanor. (a local attorney general recently threatened to stop prosecuting misdemeanors, including cases of sposaul abuse, if a $32,000 budget cut to the prosecutor's office wasn't reversed)

women are hurt by capitalism, and all other modes of patriarchal control. women everywhere have the right to resist, not just iranian and arab women.

when you say "religion cannot be a reason to ban women from doing such-and-such", it sort of implies that banning women from doing certain things men are allowed to do would be ok if religion was not the reason. most religious oppression has an obvious economic or psychological motivation, the religion is usually just ideological window-dressing.

[Death By Starbucks.]

no but i hate the fact the catholic church denounces communism rapes kids espouses sexism and generally fucks republicans heads up stopping alot of irish from joining the RA INLA when the troubles were high

[Jethro Tull]

no but i hate the fact the catholic church denounces communism rapes kids espouses sexism and generally fucks republicans heads up stopping alot of irish from joining the RA INLA when the troubles were high

oh yes, well, no disagreement here, fuck the catholic church.

do you think more "secular" capitalist societies are less oppressive? those are just the more advanced regions of the capitalist world, where religious bureaucracies have become obsolete.

[Death By Starbucks.]

i think they are all the enemy of our ideals and need to be destroyed before man can set out new societies where we are free to build pure socialism without any corrupt and disgusting failed politics and divine intentions of the fake bastard upstairs

[RedSonRising]

Try looking at past and present communal societies/communities, cooperative workplaces, and societies where a pre-existing state wasn't utilized for protection of the revolution through suppression of opposition.

Also, my experience in Cuba asking and talking directly with Cubans from last January was much more moderate in opinions on the government, hatred was never a factor. One must also wonder what Cuba would look like without the embargo and with normal trade relations, and also see how interviews would vary from some that may be conducted on the oppressed populations in capitalist Caribbean countries where labor rights are virtually nonexistant and imperialism. I am not uncritical of Cuba's structure simply making excuses, context always matters.

Very few societies have developed into desirable places when it comes down to it.

That's the point of looking for ways to improve ideological implementation. That can only happen through popular forces, and that will never happen through capitalism where the bourgeoisie have a monopoly on the influence of social relations through property, I'm sure you've realized. So that's where you can start sifting your way through what theories and models are in your opinion best to work from. Take from the best from history, learn from the worst from history, and keep learning to heal today for a better tomorrow.

[Death By Starbucks.]

any1 going to manchester to fight EDL if so any1 fancy giving me a lift:)

[proudcomrade]

she asked a woman was she worried about fidels health and everyone on the street started saying why they wouldnt care if he died or why they want to leave cuba, even recording some on her corder.

Unfortunately, there are those on the island who misdirect their understandable anger at the blockade and the continued US aggression, at the Revolution instead. Compañero Fidel has had his back stabbed many times over the decades.



Also Fidel was cleary just a liberal bourgesie who joined forces with the USSR to protect itself from the US and to gain aid.

Some people seem to think so, sadly. I disagree. If you would not mind my asking, on what do you base this opinion?

I mean no offense & am not looking for a fight, but a friendly discussion. I come here to learn, too.

[RadioRaheem84]

As a Democratic Socialist, I believe that you have every right to be critical of past totalitarian regimes. There is nothing wrong with that. They were regimes that took the power away from the worker and gave it to themselves. That is just as bad as taking the power away from the industrialists and giving it to themselves.

But don't buy into the myth that somehow being a capitalist is better. Capitalism in Western Nations and East Asia only thrived because of extensive government intervention.They're only failing now because they scaled back that intervention in favor of lassiez-faire economics. They are now learning from their mistakes.

[Davie zepeda]

Even thought Fidel has imperfection the progression of that state sometimes even surprises the capitalist remember that. Propaganda is every where and you can't make every one happy but you can at least keep them fed. Comrades if you were paying attention to history the other socialist countries began to fail when they began to flirt with capitalism which lead to a massive demand in Usa and western commodities undermining the planned economy. Which then lead to the destruction of there labor force.

[mikelepore]

that with capitalism there will always be opressors and the oppressed, but in communism there will be the political elite and the proletariat ............... Tell me why i am wrong comrades please, i really want to be.

What's you're doing wrong is judging what "will be" by surface appearances and naming conventions, instead of considering what logically follows. The consequence of having a political elite doesn't logically follow from the concept of the structure of communism.

[Tatarin]

See it like this: what do you think people had to deal with in Nazi Germany? Your partner, who happened to be a Jew, was suddenly an enemy of not only your country, but "your people". Your very existence was threatened by the person you love, who is magically involved in a grand conspiracy to control the world. If you don't start to hate that person, you are an accomplice, and thus must be killed.

Think of this in the early days of that reign of insanity, in 1933. It would take 12 years and a terrible war, which you had to survive, before things started to get better (and this is not to say that things weren't bad before 1933 - the nazis propagated their beliefs already in the 1920s, not to mention the overall persecution of Jews for centuries before the 20th).

Imagine the rest of the world in those days, in where fascism was getting support from all sides, even presidents who claimed to be protectors of democracy came over and smiled with Hitler on TV.

If you are young now, I'm guessing 12 years ago you didn't even think of socialism the way you do now. The story above probably did happen to someone. The point is that the situation can look pretty rotten in any time of anyones' life, but that things can change for the better, and faster than anyone can imagine.

If you feel rotten now, how do you think people around you feel? Or for that matter, people in Africa, Asia, South America, hell, everywhere on this planet?

Start small and start close. Begin with your friends. Begin on their level too. "Rich people get the best of it." Why? How? When did they get rich? What did they really do? Are rich people helping the world today? Why can the government spend 10% of the world's money to save some banks but not starving people, who requires far less.

[Spawn of Stalin]

My Cousin went to cuba 2 weeks ago and she went into cities like cienfuegos and santa clara and she said the hate of castro and the corrupt gov of cuba is overwhelming.
she asked a woman was she worried about fidels health and everyone on the street started saying why they wouldnt care if he died or why they want to leave cuba, even recording some on her corder.
Are you sure she went to Cuba and not Miami? No, seriously, of course there are people who don't like Fidel, but the way I see it Cuban children are taught Marx and Lenin in school so they very well understand the concept of revolution, if they wanted to get rid of the the government and establish a new one they would have done it already, but no, the Cuban Revolution is fifty years old, and there haven't been any real attempts of an uprising. Just look at the Revolution Day celebrations, despite the fact that most of the population was born after 1959, millions of them still come out every year. Maybe your cousin was exaggerating, maybe she is anti-Communist and figured if she told you that then it might change your mind about socialism, maybe she just happened to only talk to people who don't like Castro, all we really know is that the hatred for Castro you speak of, probably isn't nearly as bad as you make it sound.

[Devrim]

You are not in any way becoming a capitalist. A capitalist is defined by his relationship to the means of production, not ideas.

Devrim

[cyu]

You are not in any way becoming a capitalist. A capitalist is defined by his relationship to the means of production, not ideas.
Exactly. Just like there are murderers and people who support murder, even if they've never personally murdered anyone... or rapists and people who support rapists even if they've never personally raped anyone.

[Irish commie]

It is counter productive of the left to be overcritical of cuba though it may not be ideal it is working under very difficult conditions due the embargo and yet still has more doctors per person than the USA and higher literacy rates than the USA.

In my opinion communism has yet to been properly put into place and can only world on a very large basis with the majority of the world communist as the constant pressure of aattack on the USSR and other countries meant people were less likely to question the regime. furthermore trotsky and lenin esxpected to revolutions to happen in germany and other parts of the world and therefore had little alternative ideas for how communism could function within a single state within a capitalist world. Also due to foreign intervention and counter revolutionary intervention during the civil war authoritarian like policies had to be put into place and people got used to this.

Furthermore are you suggesting that communism isnt democratic? For workers owning the means of production and controlling the country seems far more democratic than any system in place today.

[heiss93]

How exactly does the show Entourage, show the glories of capitalism?

[Sugar Hill Kevis]

Go to Haiti and ask how they feel about their government. Thats is, if you are able to walk around the cities of Haiti and talk to locals without a hungry youts stealing your stuff.

Because capitalist injustices exhonerate injustices done in the name of socialism?

[Stranger Than Paradise]

How exactly does the show Entourage, show the glories of capitalism?

By glorifying social mobility and the belief that anybody can be a movie star and other such things no matter where they come from or what they start with.

[noway]

look ..you are always going to have the rich, the world is always going to have the left.. the important thing is that the rich should be from the left :D

[Crux]

look ..you are always going to have the rich, the world is always going to have the left.. the important thing is that the rich should be from the left :D
Uh what?

[Jethro Tull]

Cuban children are taught Marx and Lenin in school so they very well understand the concept of revolution, if they wanted to get rid of the the government and establish a new one they would have done it already

people in the western world also have free access to marx and lenin. marx is taught in most college economics classes, albeit not correctly. (not to say it is taught correctly in the public schools of cuba)

any argument you could say about the cuban proletariat, you could also say about the proletariat of any other state. if israel is so bad, why hasn't the proletariat overthrown israel? (hint: the working-class doesn't always act in it's own interests. another hint: revolution is a difficult process)


Just look at the Revolution Day celebrations, despite the fact that most of the population was born after 1959, millions of them still come out every year.

yep, and here in the u.s. 50,000-70,000 workers recently came out in demonstration of their opposition to obama's "socialism".


Maybe your cousin was exaggerating

maybe the cousin doesn't actually exist. hence why you should travel to cuba and judge how cuban society operates for yourself.

[Jethro Tull]

Unfortunately, there are those on the island who misdirect their understandable anger at the blockade and the continued US aggression, at the Revolution instead.

why can't it be both? most cubans do not believe the current cuban administration is in a process of prolonged and continuous indefinite "revolution", nor do they support u.s. imperialism. amazing how the world has all these other shades besides black and white


Compañero Fidel has had his back stabbed many times over the decades.

it can't be back-stabbing if we never considered fidel our compañero.

although, actually, it's the other way around. fidel was once on our side, but then he stabbed us in the back. end of story.


on what do you base this opinion?

the opinion that cuba allied with the u.s.s.r., or that castro is a liberal bourgeoisie?

[Orange Juche]

Maybe your cousin was exaggerating, maybe she is anti-Communist and figured if she told you that then it might change your mind about socialism, maybe she just happened to only talk to people who don't like Castro, all we really know is that the hatred for Castro you speak of, probably isn't nearly as bad as you make it sound.

Maybe you're right. Or, maybe this cousin's portrayal of what she had seen was accurate.

All of what you are saying is confirmation bias. It appears to me at least that you'd gladly take any evidence that shows Cubans love Castro without question, but if someone is critical of this idea (and the idea that Marxism-Leninism worked and works in Cuba) you suddenly analyze it far more deeply.

I, personally, don't claim to know - though I'm willing to bet western media obviously has a slanted bourgeois bias. But, from what I can gather, it isn't a paradise either. It's probably at some middle point, where people are generally doing descent, and there is a certain level of support for the government... but theres also probably a lot of fear, and being too vocal and ideologically distant from the party line is probably not beneficial to one's health. That's my hypothesis.

I just thought I'd say all this. I hate confirmation bias.

[proudcomrade]

why can't it be both? most cubans do not believe the current cuban administration is in a process of prolonged and continuous indefinite "revolution", nor do they support u.s. imperialism.

I was not the one who said that the Revolution was "long and continuous"; that was someone else.



amazing how the world has all these other shades besides black and white

Try being a little less condescending, not to mention a little better at actual substantial debate. This is most likely the first and last time I'll end up bothering to respond at all, if you can't do much better than cheap sarcasm and rude behavior toward a stranger. While you're at it, the Shift key is your best friend. e.e. cummings you ain't.


it can't be back-stabbing if we never considered fidel our compañero.

This line positively defies logic; and who's this "we"?


although, actually, it's the other way around. fidel was once on our side, but then he stabbed us in the back. end of story.

How, precisely?


the opinion that cuba allied with the u.s.s.r., or that castro is a liberal bourgeoisie?

So what if it did? And on what do you base your opinion of him as a "liberal bourgeoisie"?

Look, disagree all you want, I welcome it; however, if you can't at least do so respectfully and with a bit more factual support, don't expect to get taken all that terribly seriously.

[Irish commie]

[QUOTE=the opinion that cuba allied with the u.s.s.r., or that castro is a liberal bourgeoisie?[/QUOTE]
You criticise castro for alllying cuba with the USSR? He had no choice the americans would have destroyed cuba quicker than you could click your finger, furthermore catro needed a buyer for cuban exports where else would he find such a largo consumer to buy so much and mprove the cuban peoples standard of living.

Furthermore if castro is a liberal than im a very left wing liberal, He nationalised private property set up cooperatives for farmers any many more dicidedly socialist things such as free healthcare and unviersity education.

[Die Rote Fahne]

I don't advocate things like what happened in USSR, China, Cuba, etc. I think they are examples of what we are fighting against, i.e. societies where the working class misses out on controlling their own lives at the expense of a rich few, i.e. a ruling class and a working class.

I agree with some fo yuor analyses of those countries, and I also agree it is odd some people criticise the brutality of the current world powers whilst also excusing the atrocities commited by Stalin, Mao etc, but again, this does not affect me.

Despite all of this I am still ana dvocate of working class revolution. You may find this odd because I share your concerns.

I want to outline a position to you which cuts through alot of the usual dogma you get associated with this question, alot of it hypocritical or simply just false.

You see I understand your anxieities, I think they are part of what alot of us face, i.e. feeling a revolution can't or wont work, and so you begin to look for what you think is reliastic, what we can actually advocate.

What I found was the way to get around this is to keep your politics basic and transparent for yourself. I have done this. All you have to do mate is basically support the working class, support what is in the interests of the working class. Not lead them, not create socialism for or with them, but support them. What does this mean? Well, a number of obvious, clear-cut things. For example, supporting working class workplace organisation into unions and subsequent struggles like strikes, supporting and advancing their cause as your own (which it is, if your working class). This means opposing fascism. This means opposing the electoral facade (in clear opposition to your understandable but in my opinion incorrect opinion on democratic socialism). This means quite simply always acting in the itnerests of the class. It doesn't matter whether or not things look impossible - so what if through my support with members of my class in strikes doesn't cause a revolution - you can't plan things out like that. But all I will know is I always stood for the interests of my class.

I think this is the only acceptable form of politics for working class people today. No grand visions beyond what is realistic and obvious, no dogma, no 'picking sides' in conflicts where we choose a lesser evil, just clear, solid class politics. I hope this view helps and that I got across what I wanted to say clearly.

This.

[Jethro Tull]

I was not the one who said that the Revolution was "long and continuous"; that was someone else.

true, however, under marxist-leninist dogma, a socialist state is a transition-period between capitalism and communism. if the republic of cuba is an example of a socialist state, this proceedure obviously takes more than 50 years.

i do not believe that state-socialism is a transition to communism. i also do not believe that, if the workers had siezed control of the means of production as a consequence of the cuban revolution, that it would have taken longer than 50 years for them to transition to communism, would that be their intentions. hence, i do not believe any act taken by the administration of the republic of cuba is an act of "revolution". therefore, it is inaccurate to say that a cuban citizen who stands in opposition to the state is an opponent of "the revolution".


While you're at it, the Shift key is your best friend. e.e. cummings you ain't.

so in otherwords i have to be "established" as an "avant-garde artist" by the bourgeois intelligentsia before i'm allowed to depart with the capitalist education infastructure's manual of style for controlling language? ok....

(maybe my shift buttons are broken :D)


This line positively defies logic

no it doesn't. it's illogical to say that any act of defiance against someone you never supported in the first place is "backstabbing". might as well say all of our comrades in the u.s., europe, asia, africa, and the rest of latin-america are "backstabbers" for opposing capitalism.


and who's this "we"?

the workers, communists, people who enjoy being free from capitalism...


How, precisely?

by using a centralized party-aparatus to monopolize the gains of the general uprising in cuba and rechannel popular energy towards the construction of a new bourgeois state. this is well documented in the recorded history of cuba.



So what if it did?

did what? ally with the u.s.s.r.?

i'm not outraged that fidel allied with the u.s.s.r. why wouldn't he? it was the politically expediant thing for him to do. just as it was the politically expedient thing for stalin to ally with hitler.

we should always expect politicians to act expediently to protect their own interests.


And on what do you base your opinion of him as a "liberal bourgeoisie"?

i did not call castro a "liberal bourgeoisie", i was quoting another poster. i think the accusation of liberalism refers to castro's political career prior to the moncada barracks. i do happen to think classical liberalism, social democracy, and marxism-leninism are similar political phenomena.

as for the accusation that fidel is a bourgeoisie, as president of the republic of cuba he did have control over large amounts of economic capital.