Burlusconi is getting more and more scary by the day!

[Steve_j]

The 15-judge Constitutional Court ruled on Wednesday that immunity legislation pushed through by Mr Berlusconi's administration in 2008 violated the principle that all citizens were equal in the eyes of the law. Mr Berlusconi said he felt "invigorated" by the ruling, adding that he had expected it as the court was dominated by left-wing judges.




Earlier, he had insisted that the charges against him were farcical and that his administration would "govern for five years with or without the law"


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8296448.stm

[Revy]

he is moving toward a dictatorship, isn't he?

the fact that there are fascist parties in his coalition is bad enough, now this. What will Italy under him look like in "five years"?

[Wanted Man]

he is moving toward a dictatorship, isn't he?

No, he isn't.

[Raúl Duke]

If here were he would face much more resistance especially by college students, recen graduates, and younger workers who seem to dislike him. Also 2-4 regions have majorities that dislike him a lot.

[Tiocfaidh Ar La]

Mans a complete tool, how anyone votes for him, I'll never know. Don't think he is moving to a dictatorship tho

[Colonello Buendia]

I despise berlusconi and everything he stands for but he is not moving for a dictatorship. I'm pleased at the ruling but he'll manage to get away scot free regardless as he's got some bloody excellent lawyers

[Mather]

I'm pleased at the ruling but he'll manage to get away scot free regardless as he's got some bloody excellent lawyers.


Sadly you may be right.

Not only does he have an army of very expensive and very good lawyers behind him, he also has a lot of the civil service and possibly a good portion of the judiciary in his pocket too.

[Jethro Tull]

regardless of whether or not burlusconi's administration is moving towards autocracy, insinuating that autocracy is "scarier" than representative democracy is bourgeois. many imperial powers willingly and peacefully transitioned from aristocratic autocracy to liberal democracy, because it's a more stable form of social control. autocratic capitalist regimes are often a sign of instability - instability is "scary" from the perspective of the bourgeoisie but a decisive oppertunity for us.

the notion that a bourgeois regime that changes its figurehead every four years is somehow freer or less of a dictatorship is foolish. all capitalist regimes are bourgeois class-dictatorship, the figurehead matters little.

[cyu]

he is moving toward a dictatorship, isn't he?


Every capitalist society is already a dictatorship. In every capitalist-owned company, upper management gives their orders to their subordinates, who then give their orders to their subordinates, and so on down the line - in other words, dictatorship.

What is special about Italy is that their head of state has even more control over the mass media that in most other capitalist "democracies" - and how does he win elections? The same way single-party authoritarian regimes win sham elections: if you contol the media, you control the ideas; if you control the ideas, you control what people will vote for.

[Mather]

Every capitalist society is already a dictatorship. In every capitalist-owned company, upper management gives their orders to their subordinates, who then give their orders to their subordinates, and so on down the line - in other words, dictatorship.

What is special about Italy is that their head of state has even more control over the mass media that in most other capitalist "democracies" - and how does he win elections? The same way single-party authoritarian regimes win sham elections: if you contol the media, you control the ideas; if you control the ideas, you control what people will vote for.


Spot on!

There is no freedom or any real chance for the working class and the mass of people to effect decision making in bourgeois 'democracy'.

As long as there is a state, a bourgeoisie and a capitalist system, there will be a dictatorship.

[Cheung Mo]

There's a lot of very fucking stupid people in Italy who need a good waterboarding. Look at Berlusconi's approval ratings.

[Dimentio]

Italy has experienced 50 years of corruption. The support of Berlusconi is a sign of how low the people consider the authorities to be.

[Colonello Buendia]

we also had 62 elections in 63 years for various reasons.

[Colonello Buendia]

What's scarier about an autocracy is that at least in a liberal democracy we get to have a discussion on a leftwing website, hold demonstrations and ditribute literature something we cant do in an authoritarian country

[Dimentio]

What's scarier about an autocracy is that at least in a liberal democracy we get to have a discussion on a leftwing website, hold demonstrations and ditribute literature something we cant do in an authoritarian country

Yes. I've heard that Berlusconi has armed fascist gangs. Is that true or is it just a news duck?

[rednordman]

Mans a complete tool, how anyone votes for him, I'll never know. Don't think he is moving to a dictatorship thoAgreed. The man would make an awful dictator aswell, so we wouldnt have much to worry about. The Italians would just owst him asap. I am bermused as to how he has gained so much popularity in Italy though?, he's a boob. - Mabey, he makes most of them feel good about themselves because he is so bad.

Also on the chart of corruption, how high do you people think he would end up at compared to other leaders?

[Tatarin]

Maybe he isn't a fascist, but he sure likes fascists.

[Revy]

That seemed to ruffle feathers. As if in the 21st century dictatorships couldn't arise? Or is it because it is assumed that such regimes are no longer possible in Europe?

[Dimentio]

The leading right-liberal newspaper in Sweden - Expressen - today had an editorial denouncing Berlusconi as a charlatan and a clown, and expressing worries about the destiny of democracy in Italy.

[FSL]

I am bermused as to how he has gained so much popularity in Italy though?, he's a boob. - Mabey, he makes most of them feel good about themselves because he is so bad.



He got rich by breaking laws, buying off politicians and denying everything. He's a media magnate that can afford women 50 years younger. He lives in a great house and goes on expensive vacation.

Long story short, he's the epitome of the American Dream, so many years of propaganda are bound to leave their mark on many people.

[Wanted Man]

That seemed to ruffle feathers. As if in the 21st century dictatorships couldn't arise? Or is it because it is assumed that such regimes are no longer possible in Europe?

Naw, it can happen, but not now, and not in Italy. The way things are going in Italy is quite common in bourgeois democracy, to be frank. That's why communists don't pretend that Berlusconi's actions are somehow particularly "dictatorial", thereby spreading illusions in a "good" kind of bourgeois democracy in the rest of Europe.

The fact is that there is only one kind of dictatorship in Italy, and it's the same as in the rest of Europe: the class dictatorship of the bourgeoisie. The ruling class in Italy doesn't need much else, because the working class movement has been resoundingly defeated several times by means that are perfectly legit and democratic to them.

Also, "ruffle feathers"? People said "I disagree"... :lol:

[Revy]

So you only disagreed with me not based on any facts, but because you don't want to look like you're endorsing bourgeois democracy.:confused:

[Pirate Utopian]

I'm sure he disagreed with you because shouting dictator over every thing you dont like a leader does is ridiculous.

Berlusconi is a prick, just like any other capitalist, he's not a dictator.

[Revy]

I'm sure he disagreed with you because shouting dictator over every thing you dont like a leader does is ridiculous.

Berlusconi is a prick, just like any other capitalist, he's not a dictator.

I did not "shout" it. I asked a question, hence the question mark.

this is what I said :

"Berlusconi is moving toward a dictatorship, isn't he?". Not a statement, not a claim, but a question. I did not even ask if he was a dictator, but about his future intentions.

I actually read what was posted. And when I read, "I will govern for five years with or without the law", that is why I asked it.

And then the discussion took a detour into some insisting that there was no difference between a dictatorship and any other state. Which is the real ridiculous thing to say.

[Comrade Gwydion]

he is moving toward a dictatorship, isn't he?

the fact that there are fascist parties in his coalition is bad enough, now this. What will Italy under him look like in "five years"?

Not just in the coalition: His party officially merged with a publically fascist party. The former leader of that party is the rumored runner-up for when Berlusconi retires. The fucking fascists.

And yes, I do believe that Italy is moving toward a dictatorship. And yes, I do believe that that is even worse than bourgoisie dictatorship.

[Revy]

Not just in the coalition: His party officially merged with a publically fascist party. The former leader of that party is the rumored runner-up for when Berlusconi retires. The fucking fascists.

And yes, I do believe that Italy is moving toward a dictatorship. And yes, I do believe that that is even worse than bourgoisie dictatorship.

Thank you for this information. I am sure some here didn't even know that. They are far more concerned with how they appear to others than the facts, which were what I was interested in.

I do not support bourgeois democracy, but I do not think living under a fascist regime , military junta or dictatorship is the same AT ALL. Seriously, the implications of that kind of thinking are just terrible. "Oh, I'm living under Franco/Salazar/Hitler/Mussolini, but I'm just going to take comfort in that all states are practically the same!" :rolleyes:

[Dimentio]

Gianfranco Fini is a very popular politician in Italy. According to himself, he is a "post-fascist". And he shook hands with Ariel Sharon on a photo.

[cyu]

just like any other capitalist, he's not a dictator


What's the difference between a capitalist and a dictator?

[Wanted Man]

So you only disagreed with me not based on any facts, but because you don't want to look like you're endorsing bourgeois democracy.:confused:

What facts? I simply don't think Berlusconi will institute a fascist dictatorship (or a military junta, or some kind of other dictatorship) because there is no need for it. Within the confines of bourgeois democracy, leaders have always used the opportunity to meddle with the judiciary, extend their rule, openly or secretly work with fascists, manipulate the media, and, if at all possible, sleep around with 17-year-old girls. Doesn't make them fascists.

Also, I don't know why you're trying to make up my arguments for me. I never said that fascism and bourgeois democracy are "the same", I'm disputing that Berlusconi is establishing fascism. Such claims are no different from people in Europe who said that Bush was "moving towards dictatorship" with the PATRIOT Act. They must be enjoying Obama now... Likewise, Berlusconi's "left" opponents did not have much to offer, did they?

In both cases, it's a poor substitute for a real analysis of what's going on, because it simply uses nasty words to describe nasty policies. You go on about "facts", but the only fact seems to be that Berlusconi will either complete his term, with all his awful policies, or he will get prosecuted before that, despite all his attempts to the contrary. In either case, Italy will remain a "normal" and "legit" bourgeois democracy... That's why we have to get rid of it in the first place!

[Comrade Gwydion]

Well, at least Silvio's claim that rightwing female politicians are better looking than left-wing politicians is proven a Lie over here in the netherlands:
http://www.speld.nl/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/thieme.jpg <-- Leftwing Rightwing --> http://www.cindyschneider.nl/uploaded_images/1985914224_1999998455_verdonk-750927.jpg


:lol:



Damn, I sized them down, but somehow this thing doesnt seem to save that

[scarletghoul]

Wow, who's that leftist one? She's really pretty.

[Comrade Gwydion]

@Scarletghoul

Hahaha, actually she's an eviromentalist, but on other issues allways votes along with the leftwing. Marianne Thieme, Party for Animals.
Haven't heard from her in a while though, even though she's in parliament.

On-topic: does anyone know if Silvio is going to be prosecuted, or not?

[Raúl Duke]

does anyone know if Silvio is going to be prosecuted, or not?

Persecuted for what? This man seemingly gets away with anything and only suffers a negligible drop in votes...It's almost mind-boggling.

[Steve_j]

does anyone know if Silvio is going to be prosecuted, or not?

It looks like he might, am not sure where exactly it goes from here.

[Steve_j]

Yes. I've heard that Berlusconi has armed fascist gangs. Is that true or is it just a news duck?

A little hyped up i think but a concern, they are "community police"
not armed (unless im mistaken:() but yeah they have fascist insignia and other links.

[Raúl Duke]

A little hyped up i think but a concern, they are "community police"
not armed (unless im mistakenhttp://www.revleft.com/vb/../revleft/smilies/sad.gif) but yeah they have fascist insignia and other links. It's not that he specifically has armed fascists groups under his control but he or one of his coalition partners has allowed these sorts of groups to take up community policing. I'm not sure if it's a national initiative...I mostly heard of this occurring in Northern Italy. Most likely it's not something exactly from his party but more from his coalition partner Lega Nord which are very anti-immigrant (originally the Lega Nord even hated the rest of Italy) and this policing group stuff seems directed somewhat towards immigrants. I heard there's a group that's roughly called "Italian National Guard" and they do use fascist-like insignia/etc but as I said, it's mostly in the North (like in Milan).

[cyu]

This man seemingly gets away with anything and only suffers a negligible drop in votes...It's almost mind-boggling.


Give anybody near complete control of a country's mass media, and they'd be able to get away with anything too.

[Comrade Gwydion]

True... I heard most of the scandals we hear about aren't even mentioned in Italian press.... That's why it was a SPANISH newspaper that reported about most of these scandals.

[Raúl Duke]

True... I heard most of the scandals we hear about aren't even mentioned in Italian press.... That's why it was a SPANISH newspaper that reported about most of these scandals.

Actually, I did see news and reports about scandals while in Italy (but after uncovered by a Spanish newspaper)...although I was in Tuscany which is known to always vote center-left.


Give anybody near complete control of a country's mass media, and they'd be able to get away with anything too.

Imagine if the guy who ran Fox News became a leader of a country (or of the U.S.)...

[Steve_j]

Imagine if the guy who ran Fox News became a leader of a country (or of the U.S.)...

Murdoch doesnt need to become any leader of any country. He gets away with enough shit as it is :( Fucking "libertarian" just supports anyone who will make him the most money.

[ItalianCommie]

It's not that he specifically has armed fascists groups under his control but he or one of his coalition partners has allowed these sorts of groups to take up community policing. I'm not sure if it's a national initiative...I mostly heard of this occurring in Northern Italy. Most likely it's not something exactly from his party but more from his coalition partner Lega Nord which are very anti-immigrant (originally the Lega Nord even hated the rest of Italy) and this policing group stuff seems directed somewhat towards immigrants. I heard there's a group that's roughly called "Italian National Guard" and they do use fascist-like insignia/etc but as I said, it's mostly in the North (like in Milan).

Unfortunately not, this is happening all over the country. The fascists are back, and worst of all, they are protected by Berlusconi's parties in the institutions and by the Police. They now come out in the open and occupy abandoned buildings and make local HQ's out of them... Of course the police never do anything because they work together. They basically govern the city of Verona, they killed Niccolò Tommasoli last year and the group that killed him was never found. Rome is now probably one of Italy's most right wing cities, full of soldiers and fascists, because the government in order to spread fear has mobilized some army units.. but luckily there are still many communist and anarchist militants that are organized and ready to resist and attack the fascists.. Check out this video on what happened in Piazza Navona last year.. The fascists were trying to take control of a students protest, and look how us commies reacted :lol: The fascists are the guys holding the batons coloured as the italian flag, the communists are those charging throwing chairs and tables at them, shuting "Siamo tutti antifascisti" (We are all antifascists)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gkn8fIvLwqM&feature=fvw

As for Berlusconi things are getting worse by the day.. Italy's media everyday i more and more pro-government, not allowing the voice of any qualifiable opposition to the government(like the communists always used to be), plus they are attempting to bring Constitution changes, that will surely undermine the fundamental principles of the Republic.. We are becoming more and more a South American Banana Republic like Pinochet's Chile.. militarization of society is getting stronger, and fascist slogans and racist riff raff are taking more and more hold on the italian youth, unfortunately.:(