The Socialist Alternative

[Comrade B]

Couple members from this group gave me some info on them, I am attending a talk tomorrow from one of their guys, anyone have anything I should know about these guys? Preferably from Trotskyists or people without anti-Trotskyist tendencies.

[yuon]

I only know of the Socialist Alternative that exist in Australia. They are anti-parliamentarian, they tend to only be active among students (and thus have a high turn over rate in membership), and they also tend to be rather anti-anarchistic (like a lot of Leninistic type organisations).

From what I've seen of them, they can form coherent "red blocs" at protests, and aren't afraid to clash with the police (which other socialist groups certainly are).

Theoretically, apart from what I mentioned above, I'm afraid I can't offer you anything.

Oh, and the mob you are talking about, they may not even be the same as the mob I'm talking about.
:):lol::blink:

[Niccolò Rossi]

I only know of the Socialist Alternative that exist in Australia. They are anti-parliamentarian, they tend to only be active among students (and thus have a high turn over rate in membership), and they also tend to be rather anti-anarchistic (like a lot of Leninistic type organisations).

What do you mean by 'anti-parliamentarian'? In the 2007 Federal Election they called for a vote to the Greens.

Your observation about the composition of their organisation is correct though, it is overwhelmingly university students and (to a lesser extent) acedemics and the university educated. Their extremely high turn over rate is a product of this, but I think more importantly, their oppurtunistic policy of recruitment (they are happy to recruit anything that moves) and lack of internal democracy.

Their hostility towards other groups is also note worthy, particularly with the anarchists. A small group of sympathisers of the Communist Left in Sydney (including myself) recently experienced it first hand when we attempted to distribute publications of the ICC outside of 'Socialism 2009'. We were harassed to leave, sworn at, yelled at, had people we were talking to literally led away by party cadres and they even stooped to sending young cadres out the front of where we were standing and escorting people into the conference away from us.

It should be clarified; SAlt (Australia) is a Cliffite group which was expelled from the ISO in 1995. SAlt (USA) is the US section of the CWI. They are completely different organisations with (somewhat) different politics.

EDIT: Bolded for Q ;)

[Q]

I only know of the Socialist Alternative that exist in Australia.
Irrelevant. Socialist Alternative (http://socialistalternative.org/) in the USA and Canada is part of the CWI. The Australian section of which is the Socialist Party (http://www.socialistpartyaustralia.org/).

Comrade B: What would you like to know?

[Comrade B]

I want to know if there is anything that I would strongly oppose to them, if they have supported anything counter-revolutionary, or if they are too mild to support. They don't seem like it so far though, but just to double check

[Q]

I want to know if there is anything that I would strongly oppose to them, if they have supported anything counter-revolutionary, or if they are too mild to support. They don't seem like it so far though, but just to double check
Well, whether they are "bad" or "good" is strongly dependent on your own ideas and values and as such is an invite for a flamewar. Have you done any background reading on their articles and pamphlets/books? Do you have concrete worries or are there not clear for you?

[Comrade B]

I am going to a discussion with some of them present tomorrow, the next day I arranged for a meeting with one of their members individually, I was just checking up to make sure these guys are what their pamphlets and everything say they are.

[Q]

I am going to a discussion with some of them present tomorrow, the next day I arranged for a meeting with one of their members individually, I was just checking up to make sure these guys are what their pamphlets and everything say they are.
Well, as a Dutch CWI member I can say: yes, we are :D

[Crux]

Yeah, from what I understand , speaking as a member of the swedish section of the CWI, we just had quite a few new members join in the state of Washington.
So what talk are you attending?

[Tower of Bebel]

I know of three SA members who visit(ed) Revleft. You can find them in the CWI user group.

[KC]

First, they called for a vote for Nader.

Second, they call for the creation of a workers party in the US.

I think these are probably two of the biggest points on which I disagree with them.

[Revy]

First, they called for a vote for Nader.

Second, they call for the creation of a workers party in the US.

I think these are probably two of the biggest points on which I disagree with them.

I asked a member of Socialist Alternative, and they said it was a narrow majority that pushed through the support for Nader. But what would have been the alternative? McKinney? I didn't think of asking that. I would prefer if a socialist group endorsed a socialist ticket. when they endorse Green presidential campaigns and Nader they put themselves behind electoral movements that *cannot* win. It is obvious that if you are endorsing a presidential ticket that is not Democrat or Republican, you are doing so based on your principles and not any kind of strategic bullshit. so the best way to show that would be to vote socialist.

Fact: the three socialist campaigns in 2008 (PSL, SPUSA, and SWP) got the worst combined percentage of votes socialist parties had gotten since 1888, 120 years before! Seriously! that statistic NEVER gets old. that was just embarrassing, and lots of socialist groups completely ignored those campaigns in favor of Nader or the Greens.

[Radical]

Stop calling Trotskites "Leninists" because they are not.

Comrade, before you line yourself with a party, I first ask that you study the thoeries of both Lenin and Trotsky. Trotsky is not a Leninist nomatter how much these dreamers desire him to be.

Trotsky opposed Lenin and his idea's all the way up untill 1917 - Which just so happend to be when the October Revolution would be. His theory of permanent revolution is directly opposed to Lenin's thoery of Proletariat Revolution. Trotsky also opposed Lenin and Stalin's belief that Socialism can happen in a single county. - Both very key idea's in being a Leninist

I recommend you read this fine book by Comrade Harpal Brar- Trotskyism or Leninism?
http://www.cpgb-ml.org/index.php?secName=books

[KC]

I asked a member of Socialist Alternative, and they said it was a narrow majority that pushed through the support for Nader.

That is definitely true, but the fact that that is not widely known is representative of another overall problem, which is their lack of openness. Moreover, this vote is a symptom of an opportunist trend within the organization, which is also why the idea of pushing for a workers' party is so widely supported by the membership.


But what would have been the alternative? McKinney? I didn't think of asking that. I would prefer if a socialist group endorsed a socialist ticket.I wholeheartedly agree. I think that the various Trotskyist parties should have entered into a discussion to put together a unified coalition for a single socialist candidate.


Trotsky opposed Lenin and his idea's all the way up untill 1917

The OP didn't ask about whether or not Trotsky was a Leninist; in fact, this thread isn't about that at all. Why don't you go start a separate thread and whine in there?

[Comrade B]

So what talk are you attending? Capitalism and the Socialist Alternative


First, they called for a vote for Nader.I prefer to support the PSL, though I don't completely agree with everything they do.

I realize that I don't actually know much about the CWI, could someone give me the link to where I could find more out about the CWI or give me an overview of its main differences from the IMT?

[KC]

I prefer to support the PSL, though I don't completely agree with everything they do.

I support both. Why don't you?

[Comrade B]

Why don't you?
I do support both, but I was disappointed in their support for Achmadinijad and not as supportive of the North Korean nuclear swaggering. Then again, it is unlikely that someone finds an entire group of people that think exactly the same as them on every issue.

[KC]

I do support both, but I was disappointed in their support for Achmadinijad and not as supportive of the North Korean nuclear swaggering. Then again, it is unlikely that someone finds an entire group of people that think exactly the same as them on every issue.

I am obviously in agreement with you entirely, then. What about Socialist Alternative do you like/dislike?

[Comrade B]

What about Socialist Alternative do you like/dislike?
I don't actually know much about them at this point, was hoping to find out a little bit more, but I think the talk today could help me out with that a little. I know a little about the IMT, but not so much about the CWI.

[Tower of Bebel]

There was recently a thread about the IMT and CWI (in the US): http://www.revleft.com/vb/socialist-appeal-and-t110938/index.html

From the point of view of the "outside world" there's no significant difference between the IMT and the CWI in the US. Both made a call for the creation of a workers party. Personally, I find the differences in some cases more "historical" than fundamental.

*hot air*
Such a baseless attempt to derail this thread, comrade! But the train must go on.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5IX6Yz5OfM

[KC]

I don't actually know much about them at this point, was hoping to find out a little bit more, but I think the talk today could help me out with that a little. I know a little about the IMT, but not so much about the CWI.

In my opinion Socialist Alternative is the most correct out of all US based parties in terms of politics. I agree with them on pretty much every political statement they have made. I also think that they are one of the most flexible and open organizations in the US in terms of internal discussion and debate. I think they're probably one of the least dogmatic socialist organizations that I've encountered, and they also hold probably the least sectist tendencies that I have seen.

However, as I said before, I disagree with them on various tactical/organizational decisions they have made (specific examples were supporting Nader and calling for the creation of a workers' party - more general things would be a lack of openness in bringing debates out in the open for the public to see). They also do obviously have some dogmatic tendencies. For example, they view various tactical differences as fundamental differences, justifying the split between the IMT and CWI in this manner. They also organize too much around protests and demonstrations, but I think this is a problem with the left in general, and something I criticize many organizations about. The answer to every issue is not "organize a demo!" and it never will be. There are other things that are much more pragmatic and productive that the left could spend their time on that they don't. But again, that's a general criticism of the left and not just Socialist Alternative.

If you have any questions I'd be happy to answer, as I'm sort of in the process of building a branch in Milwaukee and have had contact with a few members over the course of a few years. Also, as you can tell by my posts, I'm very open about both my praises and criticisms of the organization, so I'm not really biased (or try not to be, at least).

[Glenn Beck]

words

http://i36.tinypic.com/1r3d3q.jpg

GTFO