Is it double standard to practicice religion (for yourself) if you're communist?

[Strawberry]

Hello.

I am interested in communism, i really like it.
But... I practicice religion. I know that communists think that religion is like opium.
But i practicice religion for myself, in my home, i do not make other people who wouldn't to do it. I would never do it! I don't even talk about religion with other people.
The religion is not my life and everything i live for, i would never put religion in my political thinkings.

It's a difference between religion and politics. I hate when people make politics and religion the same.

I wonder.. if i would take the step and be communist.. on real.
Is this double standard?

[Il Medico]

No. While the upper class uses religion to sedate the masses, believing in a god or gods does not mean you can't be a communist. Very much like opium itself, it is a personal choice. Hardcore Anti-theist will attack you for having silly beliefs (or at least what they consider silly), but ignore them, they are basically the left's equivalent of Pat Robertson.

[Luisrah]

You don't need to stop being religious in order to be a communist.
There are many christian communists for example.

[al8]

I think it does not fit well together, but others think it does.

Religion serves many purposes. And Marxists and other radicals in general have many issues with it. It depends on what the religion entails; is it private or is it public, organized, married to power? All this matters. There are questions as to how truthful religion is on the one hand and on the other of how useful religion is and to whom.

Judging from your post I think you have a fairly healthy approach to your religious practice, as far as religious practices go, in that you keep it fairly private and personal. It might be harder to keep them apart than you realize, how can you be sure it will not infect your thinking?

Anyhow, I think you might find it useful and informative to read Marx's words in full of when he mentioned religion being an opium of the people;


For Germany, the criticism of religion has been essentially completed, and the criticism of religion is the prerequisite of all criticism.

The profane existence of error is compromised as soon as its heavenly oratio pro aris et focis [“speech for the altars and hearths,” i.e., for God and country] has been refuted. Man, who has found only the reflection of himself in the fantastic reality of heaven, where he sought a superman, will no longer feel disposed to find the mere appearance of himself, the non-man [Unmensch], where he seeks and must seek his true reality.

The foundation of irreligious criticism is: Man makes religion, religion does not make man. Religion is, indeed, the self-consciousness and self-esteem of man who has either not yet won through to himself, or has already lost himself again. But man is no abstract being squatting outside the world. Man is the world of man – state, society. This state and this society produce religion, which is an inverted consciousness of the world, because they are an inverted world. Religion is the general theory of this world, its encyclopedic compendium, its logic in popular form, its spiritual point d’honneur, its enthusiasm, its moral sanction, its solemn complement, and its universal basis of consolation and justification. It is the fantastic realization of the human essence since the human essence has not acquired any true reality. The struggle against religion is, therefore, indirectly the struggle against that world whose spiritual aroma is religion.

Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people.

The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions. The criticism of religion is, therefore, in embryo, the criticism of that vale of tears of which religion is the halo.

Criticism has plucked the imaginary flowers on the chain not in order that man shall continue to bear that chain without fantasy or consolation, but so that he shall throw off the chain and pluck the living flower. The criticism of religion disillusions man, so that he will think, act, and fashion his reality like a man who has discarded his illusions and regained his senses, so that he will move around himself as his own true Sun. Religion is only the illusory Sun which revolves around man as long as he does not revolve around himself.
(see more quotes in this thread (http://www.revleft.com/vb/marxist-perspectives-religion-t85163/index.html) )

Now as you will see, our project for a just society includes people having a say in matters in proportion to how much they are affected by them, and generally having more control over ones life and environment, does not rhyme well with obsessions about fantastical realities or status-quo clergies.
When life is harsh, it is understandable that people find solace and escape in fairytales, be it in religion, computer games, watching TV or some other avenue. But to take take on the project for change one has to have a clear head to face the hard facts.

Having people not have a harsh reality to face, will of course strike religion at it's roots. And many religious leaders are very cognizant of that fact. There was one Yogi that came to Iceland once and viewed the hardship of the poor as a positive thing, since it gave them more impetus to become spiritual. Other vanguards of different religions say the same thing, but in different words, and is the reason for hostility towards communism and other similar utopian movements. And in turn a reason communist vanguards have a hostile attitude towards religion - because not only is religion a "sigh of the oppressed creature" it also fits into a conservative framework of a status-quo-protecting interpreter-class that retards the potential revolutionary agent - the working class.

[Jethro Tull]

fantastical realities


face the hard facts.


a harsh reality to face

you're not doing your cause a service by perpetuating the "arrogant atheist" stereotype.

i understand it's difficult to accept that we religious folks have a differing perception of reality, facts, etc. than yourself. if you acknowledged and recognized this inconvenience, you'd be forced to reflect on whether you have a monopoly on factual truth...

[al8]

Jethro Tull, I am correct, you are free to challenge me to explain why, but be specific. Are you asking me to explain the words and phrases that I use? Such as "face the hard facts", "fantastical realities", etc.?

Edit: I am also not convinced of your sincerity with your gratuitous image-consulting. So you can drop that, as well as your pouting.

[bailey_187]

Being a Marxist and believing in superstition is, but wishing for or advocating Communism is not.

[rosa_rot]

Religion and Communism don't have anything to do with eachother.
Even Marx knew this: When he called it "Opium", he meant the way religions are used by the powerful classes to manipulate the workers.

If you don't believe anything that's said by the pope, or an ajatollah, or in the bible or coran or whichever religion you follow, there's absolutely no problem.

I am an atheist (or pantheist, which is practically the same if you take a closer look), but I see that religion, as an ideology and a building of ideas and rules even can help to practice solidarity and resistance (if you take as an example the Hutterers in Canada, a christian society, who live in a perfect form of communism, share everything, realise the ideas of peace, equalisation and solidarity, and all this because of their belief).

It's like everything in the world: It's a poison AND a medicine. Depending on how your attitude towards it is. And it seems that yours is good.

[FSL]

Marxism collides with having an arbitrary faith on supernatural beings that is not based on facts.

Worker's management of factories however does not.



Just people who know they only get one chance in life are more likely to fight to make it a good one. :)

[blake 3:17]

Just people who know they only get one chance in life are more likely to fight to make it a good one.

I'm not sure that that is true or that even any definition of a good life follows from it.

[Kukulofori]

I'm a Muslim and a communist, and I say certainly not. Communism isn't about obediently following everything Marx says, it's about questioning the way the world is set up and how it could be better.

While religion has been used by the ruling classes to manipulate the rest, I implore you to name something that hasn't.

[Luisrah]

Just people who know they only get one chance in life are more likely to fight to make it a good one. :)

Exactly!

Though there are many in-betweens, we can take this to the extent that a super religous won't fight to make a better world, since he believes that life is only a transition, or that he will have another one, or that all will be judged and justice will be made when all die.

The fact is that we don't know (maybe one day we will) if there is another life or not, so I think we should all fight for a better life for ourselves, and most importantly, those who don't even have the minimum to survive.

Because if there is another life, then okay, let it be like it is. (but why should we suffer in ''this life'' anyway?) But since we don't know, it means it's possible that this is the only life, and I suspect all those victims of the current state of things would appreciate if they could enjoy it, since they don't have anymore.

[New Tet]

Hello.

I am interested in communism, i really like it.
But... I practicice religion. I know that communists think that religion is like opium.
But i practicice religion for myself, in my home, i do not make other people who wouldn't to do it. I would never do it! I don't even talk about religion with other people.
The religion is not my life and everything i live for, i would never put religion in my political thinkings.

It's a difference between religion and politics. I hate when people make politics and religion the same.

I wonder.. if i would take the step and be communist.. on real.
Is this double standard?

I admire your sincerity and I envy your faith. I have a problem with religion but none at all with God. If he exists and pays the slightest attention to our fuckups, he probably laughs his ass off. That is, unless by now he's bored at seeing the same sad spectacle played out in a billion worlds older and newer than ours.

Sorry, I'm venting.

[FSL]

I'm not sure that that is true or that even any definition of a good life follows from it.

I 'm not sure I get you then.
Are you saying that atheism isn't more prevalent in working class militants than it is amongst conservatives?
And that a life "without a god" can't be a good one?

[tellyontellyon]

Well.. even Marxism in the wrong hands can be used to advance personal power and to oppress people.

What motivates a person to be a Marxist, what motivates a person to follow a religion....
Even the right path followed with poor intention will lead to problems.
It is not enough to say marxism is rational or scientific.. It must also come from the heart.

Marx hated the way Capitalism reduced people to mere commodities. We have feelings and dreams and intuitions... things that are not always rational, but that make us HUMAN.
His hope was that if we were free from wage slavery we could focus more on cultural, artistic, and scientific exploration... not for profit... but for our mutual benefit and because man lives not on bread alone.

Who are you following your path for?

[spiltteeth]

There are plenty of religious communists, in history and today. Here we have a group Christian Leftists, which yr welcome to join or check out.
And in Latin America there are plenty of Christian communists.
I myself am a Christian and a Marxist, although I don't slavishly believe every word of Marx as ultimate Truth.
And Welcome!

[Invincible Summer]

I've always felt that in addition to worker's liberation, Communism has also been about giving the individual control over their own life and destiny. Religion does not provide that. In fact, it makes one's life at the whim to some mysterious, invisible entity.



I am an atheist (or pantheist, which is practically the same if you take a closer look), but I see that religion, as an ideology and a building of ideas and rules even can help to practice solidarity and resistance (if you take as an example the Hutterers in Canada, a christian society, who live in a perfect form of communism, share everything, realise the ideas of peace, equalisation and solidarity, and all this because of their belief)

Perfect form of communism? The Communism I think of doesn't isolate you from the outside world, and pretty much only involve farming

[rosa_rot]

Perfect in the sense of "without compromises" not in the sense of "what we all should do". Nothing we should copy, but a proof that religion and communism can go together.

[Shin Honyong]

There are numerous examples of religion that are quasi-revolutionary and anti-hierarchical. I find myself mostly influenced by numerous anabaptist movements that were extremely anti-hierarchical and emphasized individual ability to discover god then some expert priest.

[#FF0000]

Tons of people just making shit up and saying "THAT'S THE TRUE MEANING OF MARXISM HURR DURR" in this thread.

Either way, be religious and be a marxist. Some people say it's contradictory, others don't. Fuck'em really. Who cares.

[FSL]

Tons of people just making shit up and saying "THAT'S THE TRUE MEANING OF MARXISM HURR DURR" in this thread.

Either way, be religious and be a marxist. Some people say it's contradictory, others don't. Fuck'em really. Who cares.

Faith and marxism are contradictory and it can't be argued otherwise.
Faith and a concept of "popular economy" (being a communist in a broad sense) aren't.
Nothing fundamentally wrong with having a vague idea of what marxism is, right?

And obviously they guy asking cares. Doh

[MaoTseHelen]

Personal religion = Not hypocritical.

Organized religion = Very much so a double-standard, as it involves exerting control on the masses.

[#FF0000]

Faith and marxism are contradictory and it can't be argued otherwise.

Yes it can be.

But still, I agree that they're contradictory, but people can hold plenty of contradictory opinions and beliefs, and on an individual basis, it really doesn't matter.


And obviously they guy asking cares. Doh

Well yeah. I meant "who cares about what people think about your (OP's) religion".

[RadioRaheem84]

Marxist, yeah. Socialist, no.

[Invincible Summer]

There are numerous examples of religion that are quasi-revolutionary and anti-hierarchical. I find myself mostly influenced by numerous anabaptist movements that were extremely anti-hierarchical and emphasized individual ability to discover god then some expert priest.

So believing that there is only one being that is above you (God) is anti-hierarchical? Any religion that believes in a God/ultimate power is hierarchical.

[the last donut of the night]

So believing that there is only one being that is above you (God) is anti-hierarchical? Any religion that believes in a God/ultimate power is hierarchical.

To a certain extent, yes it is, but I wouldn't call Ammon Henacy or Tolstoy authoritarian.

[Invincible Summer]

To a certain extent, yes it is, but I wouldn't call Ammon Henacy or Tolstoy authoritarian.

Could you please explain how believing in and obeying a higher power is anti-hierarchical?

[Kwisatz Haderach]

Hello.

I am interested in communism, i really like it.
But... I practicice religion. I know that communists think that religion is like opium.
But i practicice religion for myself, in my home, i do not make other people who wouldn't to do it. I would never do it! I don't even talk about religion with other people.
The religion is not my life and everything i live for, i would never put religion in my political thinkings.

It's a difference between religion and politics. I hate when people make politics and religion the same.

I wonder.. if i would take the step and be communist.. on real.
Is this double standard?
No, it is certainly not a double standard. You are correct that communists think "religion is like opium" - in the sense that religion can be used to make people more accepting of the status quo and less likely to rebel - but that is not the only use of religion, just like it's not the only use of opium.

Besides, communists are certainly not against the personal use of opium!

We can all agree that there is no contradiction in being religious and advocating a communist society. It's disputed whether you can be a religious Marxist, but that's because Marxism involves a lot more than just supporting communism. Marxism also involves a materialist view of history, and many people believe that such a view of history conflicts with religious beliefs (I do not).

But if you've only just started learning about communism, you're definitely not yet at the point where you need to look at the details of Marxist theory and decide whether they are compatible with your religion.

[Kwisatz Haderach]

Could you please explain how believing in and obeying a higher power is anti-hierarchical?
Believing in and obeying a higher power is not anti-hierarchical, but it can be neutral and irrelevant in matters of human hierarchy. Just because God is above Humanity in some way, that does not mean that some parts of Humanity must be above others.

[FSL]

Could you please explain how believing in and obeying a higher power is anti-hierarchical?


Some people might view God not as a "higher power" but more of an understanding and encompassing force.

Their choise anyway.


And Loveschach, I 'd love to see someone arguing dialectical materialism and faith in God don't contradict each other. Dialectical materialism and crystal balls?

[Incendiarism]

Some people here refute dialectical materialism - does this make them unmarxist? Why would religious communists be an exception?

[FSL]

Some people here refute dialectical materialism - does this make them unmarxist?


Ehm, it kinda does?

[Invincible Summer]

In the instance of the Western religions, I don't see how something so innately cruel and intolerant and violent and sexist and homophobic could be considered to be compatible with communism, myself.

Eastern religions: the caste system in India that is based in Hinduism, as well as the slavery that Tibetan Buddhist monks practiced, as well as all sorts of sexism and homophobia in the two aformentioned religions, and let's not forget Islam.

Let's not romanticize Eastern religions and demonize Western ones - they've all got the same faults.

[Stranger Than Paradise]

I don't think you can't practice religion and be a Communist. For me it is more the organised religion element which is oppressive, I don't see any harm in people believing in gods, as long as they don't follow the reactionary principles of religions.

[RotStern]

Who cares?

[New Tet]

Some people here refute dialectical materialism - does this make them unmarxist? [...]

No but it gets them more dates, or so I've heard...

[New Tet]

Who cares?

I do.

The question is a good one. After all, a sizable part of the working class throughout the world still believes in God and practices religion on a regular basis. Would you reject their support and participation in overthrowing capitalism and building socialism just because they hold religious views which they routinely practice?

Let me tell you this, little comrade: If non-religious socialist do that, we don't have a prayer (no pun intended)!

[Invincible Summer]

I do.

The question is a good one. After all, a sizable part of the working class throughout the world still believes in God and practices religion on a regular basis. Would you reject their support and participation in overthrowing capitalism and building socialism just because they hold religious views which they routinely practice?

Let me tell you this, little comrade: If non-religious socialist do that, we don't have a prayer (no pun intended)!

If the post-capitalist society heavily involves the said religion, then I'd be hesitant to support it

[spiltteeth]

If the post-capitalist society heavily involves the said religion, then I'd be hesitant to support it

If post-capitalist society involves the curbing of personal freedoms even if they are strictly removed from politics and do not image on another's freedom, then I'd be hesitant to support it.

[manic expression]

Where do people come up with this stuff? IF you accept the tenets of Marxism: the necessity for working-class revolution, the abolition of private property and the eventual establishment of a classless society (etc.)...it is completely irrelevant whether or not you believe in divinity.

Is it possible to believe in God/god/gods while accepting all the conclusions of scientific socialism? Yes, it is, and I challenge anyone to refute this. Materialism has very little to do with the question of divinity, all it states is that humans make their own future, which is wholly compatible with plenty of "religious beliefs".

IF someone believes that Jesus is going to return in 20 years, and that humans can't change anything because we're all sinful and damned without the grace of Jesus...then yes, that contradicts Marxism and socialism (and logic, really). However, that's just one of many, many, many "religious" beliefs. I'll admit that from my experience, most communists are atheists/agnostics, but again, this doesn't mean a religious person can't be a communist.

So yes, it is possible for one to be religious and a communist/Marxist/socialist/revolutionary. Just make sure you follow the political program of the communist movement and NOT the political or social ideas of any religious leader or cleric and you'll be fine.

[Comrade Arthur]

If I may say, I think it's no problem to be a religious communist. However, I believe it would be a problem to be a catholic communist. As a matter of fact, when Olga (a very famous german Communist that joined an attempt for a Brazilian communist revolution) came to Brazil, the priest of a catholic church joined hist followers in front of hist church and they all swore to hate and repress communism and send communists to hell.

[New Tet]

If the post-capitalist society heavily involves the said religion, then I'd be hesitant to support it

I can't imagine a socialist society (or a revolution, for that matter) that would feel obligated to "heavily involve" any religious credo other than "love thy neighbor".