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RGacky3
4th October 2009, 21:48
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8717420224951230336&ei=mgTJSpHzOpWz-AaGh9n8Bg&q=documentary

I personally think that prison reform (I advocate abolishing prisons as we know them altogether), should be a much bigger issue for leftists, the prison system in America is extreamly inhumane and extreamly uncivilized, this is something that needs a lot more attention.

Demogorgon
4th October 2009, 22:47
The system of penal "justice" as it exists most places is utterly outrageous and is part of the broader problem that too many people care about revenge over rehabilitation and will in fact therefore tolerate a higher crime rate than they might otherwise have so as they get to violate the human rights of those seen as fair game.

Unlike you I don't advocate total abolition of prisons because in certain cases there are no better alternatives. There are no circumstances under which I would tolerate the death penalty and exile is both cruel and impractical. However it should be used only sparingly and only when there is no other reasonable alternative and prisons themselves should be focussed on rehabilitating those in them rather than inflicting cruelty upon them.

Richard Nixon
4th October 2009, 23:04
Well this really depends. Conditions in jails in most of the nation are certainly not good. However there are in many cases where the justice system is too lenient. For instance there was an insane killer who was taken out to the COUNTY FAIR and he escaped but fortunately he was recaptured. Also reinstitutionalizing mental patients will ease prison conditions and also decrease street crime.

Dean
4th October 2009, 23:37
Well this really depends. Conditions in jails in most of the nation are certainly not good. However there are in many cases where the justice system is too lenient. For instance there was an insane killer who was taken out to the COUNTY FAIR and he escaped but fortunately he was recaptured. Also reinstitutionalizing mental patients will ease prison conditions and also decrease street crime.

The issue is not, never has been and never will be about the "degree" of "punishment." As Demogorgon accurately pointed out, a penal system in a civil society is primarily focused on deterence and response to anti-social acts. Every U.S. law used to imprison people has been framed around that goal in regards to the rhetorical politics surrounding them.

There are a few fundamental changes which must come about to create a fairer justice system.

-First, the focus on crime should be around defense of people rather than institutions.

-Secondly, the barbaric legislation against prostitution, drugs and similar prohibitory transgressions should be removed.

-Third, the focus of prisons must shift from a pseudo-punitive to a totally rehabilitative one. In a progressive, reasonable society we have no place for punishment, and every need for a positive, intensive rehabilitative system which guarantees reduced sentence time for behavior which has proven correlation with lessened rates of recidivism. In other words, prisoners which display behavior typical of individuals who do not leave prison to commit crimes are given years off their sentences.

-Lastly, openness should prevail and an active regulatory and wide-ranging representation of civil society should play a key role in the direction and maintenance of the legal system.

Bud Struggle
4th October 2009, 23:40
The movie is a bit of sensationalism, I'm sure all those things did/do happen--but for the most part they are few and far between. 99.99999% of what goes on in prison is boredom. I teach entrepreneaurship in a Florida State Prison (through Catholic Outreach) and from what I see is that there are occasional bouts of trouble but for the most part everyone does their jobs, the guards and the inmates. and when that happens everything runs smoothly.

Most people--maybe 50% maybe more are in prison on drug charges. They were in the wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong stuff. These guys aren't in there to make trouble, they want to serve their time and get out. Some are in there for "real" crimes--breaking and entering, etc. A little more hardcore and more prone to violence, but then there are the real hard core sociopaths--really nasty people, these people NEED to be put away from society and prison is their world. These guys start the fights, make trouble, beat up other prisoners and make life in prison hell for the inmates. They do a lot more harm than the guards to the prison population in general--and when you see guards beating someone up--it's usually them getting slapped around.

For the most part, the druggies really don't need to be there in prison, I think the "criminals" need to be there for a deterent and I wouldn't mind if the real hardcore people were locked away forever--they really pose a threat to society when and if they are released.

synthesis
5th October 2009, 02:09
99.99999% of what goes on in prison is boredom.

Depends on the prison, but for the most part your point is moot. Boredom is often quite the aggravating factor in provoking violent and criminal behavior.

Even from the "law-and-order" perspective, the current condition of the American penal system exacerbates crime in almost every way. Many prisons are basically criminal training facilities. The violence and factionalism in these places creates the need to ally oneself with one group of hardened criminals or another, and association breeds similarity. Whether you're on the top or the bottom of the hierarchy, prison makes it extremely difficult to reintegrate into "normal" society.

If we did nothing more than decriminalize drugs and reallocate the money towards all-around improvements of conditions in prisons (more pay and benefits for guards, for example) we would see a measurable decrease in crime nationwide within five years or less.

Nwoye
5th October 2009, 02:19
Well this really depends. Conditions in jails in most of the nation are certainly not good. However there are in many cases where the justice system is too lenient. For instance there was an insane killer who was taken out to the COUNTY FAIR and he escaped but fortunately he was recaptured. Also reinstitutionalizing mental patients will ease prison conditions and also decrease street crime.
"no see actually sometimes the prisons arent strict enough cuz see one time this one crazy guy escaped and stuff"

anyway, if you're interested in an analysis of the role of the penal system in modern america and throughout history, and how it's changed, look into Michel Foucault's work (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discipline_and_Punish) on the subject.

spice756
5th October 2009, 02:24
I personally think that prison reform (I advocate abolishing prisons as we know them altogether), should be a much bigger issue for leftists, the prison system in America is extreamly inhumane and extreamly uncivilized, this is something that needs a lot more attention



The prison system in the US is do to war on vice and that is fack and well many people tell me they profit putting people in prison and get congressmen to past tough laws.

I don't know how the prison industrial complex works.But they profit and get congressmen to past tough laws.

The war on drugs play a big part in high prison system rate.

RedCeltic
5th October 2009, 04:30
There are many social problems that are closely linked to poverty, such as homelessness, unemployment, drug addiction, mental illness and illiteracy. These problems are often veiled under the category of “Crime” and attributed mainly to black males. Once they are safely behind bars these social problems seem to be contained and under control. These prisons mask the problems of the over crowded racially marginalized communities by basicly making vast numbers of poor people vanish while at the same time making other people large sums of money.

Years ago, Prisons were operated by the government. Poor southern states at one time would incarcerate large numbers of black males in order to have highways or railroads built. Now days prisons are a private industry.

American prisons today hold about two million people, seventy percent of them are black males. Only three decades ago the prison population in the United States was 1/8th of what it is today. You can see, that it is to their benefit to feed into racial steriotypes and racism. Black men are shown on the evening news often as criminal thugs, black women are shown as welfare mothers raising another generation of criminals. You can also see why more and more social programs are being under funded or closed down.

Prisons have historically been shown not to work, however Americans are being fooled through manipulation of racism/classism into thinking that they will solve social problems and that it will keep their family safe.

spice756
5th October 2009, 04:46
prisons mask the problems of the over crowded racially marginalized communities by basicly making vast numbers of poor people vanish while at the same time making other people large sums of money


It not going get bettter with are ulta conservative goverment.





Other Upcoming Supreme Court Cases

WASHINGTON — In addition to an outsize emphasis on business cases, the new Supreme Court term, starting Monday, will feature an array of other important cases, including ones concerning the First and Second Amendments, Congressional power and criminal law.

Criminal Law
In a pair of cases from Florida, the court will consider whether the Eighth Amendment’s ban on cruel and unusual punishment forbids sentencing juvenile offenders to life in prison without the possibility of parole. In one of the cases, Sullivan v. Florida, No. 08-7621, the defendant was convicted of committing a rape at age 13; in the other, Graham v. Florida, No. 08-7412, the defendant was convicted of an armed robbery at age 16.

In 2005, the Supreme Court banned the execution of juvenile offenders on the theory that adolescents are unformed, susceptible to peer pressure and capable of change. The defendants in the new cases say that logic should also apply to sentences of life without parole.
The 2005 decision, Roper v. Simmons, drew on foreign and international law, finding that “the United States is the only country in the world that continues to give official sanction to the juvenile death penalty.” Human rights groups say the United States is also alone in sentencing young teenagers to die in prison.

A case concerning the Constitution’s confrontation clause, Briscoe v. Virginia, No. 07-11191, will test the practical implications of a major decision from June. That decision, Melendez-Diaz v. Massachusetts, held that prosecutors may not rely on crime lab reports in criminal trials unless they also make the analysts who prepared the reports available to testify.
The Melendez-Diaz decision was decided by a 5-to-4 vote, and it featured some unusual alliances. Three of the court’s more liberal justices, including Justice David H. Souter, joined Justices Antonin Scalia and Clarence Thomas, the two justices committed to applying the original meaning of the Constitution. That coalition, in an opinion written by Justice Scalia, said the Sixth Amendment’s requirement that a defendant “be confronted with the witnesses against him” required testimony from the analysts.
The dissenters predicted that the ruling would create a “crushing burden” on the justice system. The new case concerns a challenge to a Virginia law that could limit the impact of Melendez-Diaz.

The law allows prosecutors to present crime lab reports without accompanying testimony but gives defendants the right to call the analysts as their own witnesses.

The case will give an early indication of whether Justice Sonia Sotomayor, the court’s newest member and a former prosecutor, will diverge from the approach that her predecessor, Justice Souter, took to criminal cases.
Congressional Power

United States v. Comstock, No. 08-1224, concerns the practice of keeping sex offenders in federal prisons locked up after they have completed their sentences on the ground that they remain “sexually dangerous.”
The appeals court in the case ruled that none of the powers granted to Congress in the Constitution authorized it to call for the civil commitment of people said to be “sexually dangerous.” The case does not involve the separate question of whether state prisoners may be held on similar grounds after they have served their sentences.
First Amendment

A cross in the Mojave National Preserve in California that was erected more than 70 years ago as a war memorial is at the center of Salazar v. Buono, No. 08-472. After a federal judge ruled that the cross violated the Constitution’s ban on government establishment of religion, Congress transferred the acre of land on which it sits to private ownership, creating what an appeals court called “a little doughnut hole of land with a cross in the midst of a vast federal preserve.”

The Supreme Court case does not directly concern the fundamental question of the constitutional status of the cross. Instead, the justices will consider whether the plaintiff, Frank Buono, had standing to object and whether the transfer arrangement fixed the constitutional problem.
The most important free-speech case of the new term is United States v. Stevens, No. 08-769. It concerns a 1999 federal law that bans commercial trafficking in “depictions of animal cruelty.” The defendant in the case, Robert J. Stevens, was sentenced to 37 months in prison for selling videos of dogfights and of dogs attacking pigs. The court has not identified a category of speech beyond the protection of the First Amendment, since it upheld a law prohibiting the distribution of child pornography in 1982.
Second Amendment

The court on Wednesday agreed to decide a question left open in last year’s big Second Amendment case, District of Columbia v. Heller, which ruled that the amendment protects an individual right that the federal government may not abridge. The question in the new case, McDonald v. City of Chicago, No. 08-1521, is whether the amendment also applies to state and local governments.


http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/05/us/politics/05scotus-side.html?_r=1

rebelmouse
5th October 2009, 09:50
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vN8ocY28V84
prisons are revenge of ruling class against those who cross the line created by ruling class. first prisons are created as private ones and later the state legalized kidnapping and keeping people locked. there is economic exploitation in prisons, making of suffering for prisoners (which will make them more dangerous when they go out), etc.
kropotkin - in russian and french prisons: http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archives/kropotkin/prisons/toc.html
kropotkin - on the moral influence of prisons on prisoners: http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archives/kropotkin/prisons/chap9.html
emma goldman - prisons: a social crime and failure: http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archives/goldman/aando/prisons.html

my longer opinions written before several years:

Why Abolishing Of Prisons?



Prisons are existing from past (a long while ago), just like authority of man over man. Prison are created by individuals who robbed ordinary people i.e. took money from work of other people & then the same money lent to those people from whom they grabbed it. As honest people, 'cause of little wages for their work, from past, work whole day for a piece of bread, it is obviously that they must one day borrow it. Working and working for a piece of bread, workers never got enough good wage in order to have possibility to give a debt back. So, today also, people fall in indebted slavery and whole life work for some bosses & many finish in private prisons in which put them riches who believe that they'll get money in that way. Later, state made laws that protect these robbing of property by idiots, punished and send in prisons all who took money from riches. At all time, State protected rich thieves 'cause thieves always represented this criminal organisation. Instead of thieves, now bigger thief - State, is finishing dirty job i.e. exploitation is institutionalised, transformed into impersonal (ity), so people harder understand where to guide their anger. From slavery, then feudalism and capitalism, to socialism, the state i.e. riches are exploiting poor people. Through history we are seeing that State is, whatever kind of it, always exploited ordinary people (riches use us to dethrone rivals - so every revolution was authoritarian i.e. cheat (ish) & therefore nothing is changed for poor). If any person was rebellious, that person always finished in the prison. Authorities always believed that they'll remove their problem if they isolate such kind of people. Of course, they never succeeded in it, 'cause the problem is not in individuals but in the state that with its repressive system and with injustice distribution of goods surely creates new fighters for freedom. From Spartak to today’s anarchists.

I would like to mention that with abolishing of prison, the same case is with state and its services also; we can make big savings of money that could be spent for food for poor. Only in USA, it's spending $ 600 million for building of one prison (or it is spending for prisons per year-I can’t remember). It is intelligibly, that will, with abolishing of the state and with anarchistic distribution of goods, disappear crimes based on self-interest, or it will be very rare, so society will be able to solve that. In order to come to this moment, we must first to explain as more as it's possible about anarchism, and it is for example the fact that prisons will exist so long as it's existing economic inequality and domination of privileged people.

I'm calling all people who have interest, and those are first of all poor, to take back everything what riches grabbed from us & to destroy their creations - PRISONS!

Beside it, the state is exploiting prisoners with help of capitalists i.e. they make together contracts about economic exploitation of prisoners. Privileged firms are getting privileges, through corruption, that prison's administration push prisoners to produce products, which are ordered by capitalists, who give fewer wages for their work than ones, have to pay workers outside of prisons. So system of prisons, between others, instigate corruption, widen privileges of these privileged class of exploitators, extend possibility of exploitation which corporally and psychic kill prisoners, etc. So, people who didn't accept to be agreed to be exploited & they decided to attack States and riches, again through repression finish in the prison where idiots imposed them, against their wish, discipline, exploitation, etc. So capitalists are seeing in prisons cheap workers who will give them possibility to turn money easy and fast, as always - with help by the State. I think that logic consequence of this situation is that riches appeal at political parties that in parliament make bigger punishments in order to make bigger number of prisoners i.e. number of cheap workers. That's done now in Serbia. Ministry of justice gave proposal in parliament, to enlarge punishments in Serbia, so now if somebody is killed punishment is 40 years (OF SERBIAN PRISON!) and before it was 20.

From this I can conclude that nothing should stop poor to take back what riches stole from us - PROFIT OF OUR WORK! DESTROY RICHES!

On my sorry, until it's happened ANARCHIST REVOLUTION, in which all riches will disappear, we must satisfy us with individual attacks (fights) against them. Everybody must understand: EITHER THEY OR WE! Class of exploitators and class of exploited cannot or to negotiate nor to make peace! There is no middle solution.

Riches are using police forces, secret agency, jurisdiction, prisons, etc, but nothing will help them. Injustice's system itself ‘produces' (born) always new and new rebels (revolutionaries) and it is just a question of moment, when it will be born new fighter for justice. JUSTICE in which all people will live normally but not only individuals.

These are some of reasons why anarchists are fighting against existing of prisons. No reforms but ABOLISHING OF PRISONS.

With regard to situation in Serbia, prisons are here the worst after Turkish, Bulgarian and Albanian ones. Here are about 5200 prisoners in 28 prisons. (new info: at 2007 there were 8500 prisoners, from it 1800 in custodies and the rest in prisons) From it, 3 are for prisoners who got punishment bigger than 1 year (Sremska Mitrovica, Pozarevac, Nis), one prison's hospital, one women's prison, one for minors (children), 4 opened style (Sombor, Padinska Skela, Sabac, Cuprija) and others are regional ones, for people who get punishment less than 1 year. Administration i.e. State, is exploiting them on prison's land and workshops, give them like wage 20-60% from wages which are usual for the same job outside. In fact, prisoners get 30% of it, as 70% stay like deposit, which they get when they go out from prison. It means, if somebody work like metal planer in the prison, the administration pay him/her 20% from 80 Euro (that's how much is average wage out of the prison), it means 15 Euro & when we add the fact that they get 30% but not 100%, it means that person get 4 Euro for whole month of work. Horrible. I don't need to speak about work's protection...

System of discipline, which is rule inside, it is killing human’s personality. Privileged get more power inside 'cause they turn money with help of prison's guard, i.e. they sell drugs. Kristijan Golubović (http://www.kristijangolubovic.net/home.html) (Serbian well-known gangster (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kristijan_Golubovi%C4%87)) boasted that he turns 15000 Euro monthly from prison in Greece & director takes care that he get hotel's luxury in prison (of course, for money). Others experience all kind of humiliations, that are based from AUTHORITY, which rule between these walls (formal and informal). There are other factors also, like walls, grates, discipline, separation from women (that's not natural), full space of people, exploited position of people, etc. They experience often torture from prison's guard and personnel (so-called 'stick's bigades' - gathered guards who beat some prisoner so he finish several months in prison's hospital), from other organized privileged prisoners, if someone didn't adapt himself/herself in prison's behaviour (codex). Codex order next rules of behaviour: it is forbidden cooperation with personnel, giving of any information, pleading for at job, admission of guilt, remorse... and especially it is respected person who is brave, pitiless and who 'persist in (under) torture'. In any case, this system is created 'cause prisoners have many problems inside of isolation (don't forget that's clean men's community) i.e. in this way prisoner's social system control behaviour of individuals. Of course, I'm not agreeing that's good but it is the fact that's reality. It is proof that we should develop anarchistic consciousness inside of prisons also. So, on this system of values it is creating mutual relations between those unhappy people, so relations with prison's personnel also, so and distribution of goods and privileges. Horrible but true.

With regard to informal authorities i.e. groups, it is creating on next basis: between countrymen, friends and on interest's basis; these groups are creating 'cause prisoners in isolation, are feeling thrown off, humiliated, strong discipline kill them also, etc. So informal system gives them possibility to oppose to the rest of the world and to create of self-esteem, i.e. the sensation of frustration is decrease.

Like in other States, conditions of living in Serbian prisons can be short described like living in sick and dangerous (life conditions).
Prisons are full of people, inside are bad hygienic and sanitary conditions, medical help is insufficient and without quality. Prisoners are under psychic and corporal violence from prison's guard and other personnel, they are often kept in prison's cell, personnel forbid them to contact with families, right to send letters, etc. It's existing discrimination in threat of prisoners (privileged pigs!), like I said: riches and poor, loyal to director and others, political fitted and unfitted, members of some national or religious community, etc. Warming hardly exists, food is horrible, medicaments doesn't exist worst than in towns... It's obviously that all these problems are intentionally imposition to prisoners 'cause the State is convinced that prisoner's life should be as more as hard it is possible (it is all in harmonize with state's repressive system i.e. 'prevaspitavanjem/correcting'). Therefore it is important to mention that situation in prisons is not bad only because of bad economic situation in the State, than 'cause of political moments, prejudices of society about prisoners (i.e. of those who put it in heads of people) and many others uneconomic causes. Political influence is showing when State realize influence on prison's personnel to torture political prisoners and arrested people. Those prisoners are the most often victims of torture. I can mention that in Serbian prisons exist about 230 Albanians and 120 of them are punished on political basis (although all are punished on this basis, those are especial prisoners) at article 125 - for terrorism and at article 136 - gathering in order to make hostile's activities. The bigest part of society is often indifferent about prisoners and they see them like sinners who ought expiate 'cause of their acts, i.e 'cause they didn't accept, like others, to suffer and to be silent – about people who don't accept differences it should be especially written. So the State convinced people that prisoners ought give back 'debt' to society 'cause of having the courage to cross the line (to step out of line), through their pain and hard work between 4 walls. In this way, the State succeeded to add, to its judgment, the moral judgment of society to those people, so the State justifies itself and its brutal behaviour about prisoners. This moral sentence is continuing longer than one from the court & it's big trouble for prisoners when they go out from prisons. Therefore anarchists ought to remember people that they should understand that prisoners are human beings who are just victims of the State and its injustice, repressive society. Consequences of the fact that people believe in justifiability of prisons and in indifferent (ness) about the torture inside of it, are the facts this torture one day go out from prison's walls. When State get power, torture experience people on the street also (more about it you can read in 'State's Violence').

It should be mentioned that doctors and other hospital's personnel are participants in torture, 'cause they don't give help to prisoners, and even when they do it, medical documentation disappear in some secret way - proofs about scares, wounds, photos of broken bones, etc. Therefore it is so hard to prove torture inside of prisons. In that way doctors participate i.e. instigate prison's personnel in violence over prisoners, use their knowledge to help in investigation against prisoners and over people in custody, and it could make psychic and corporal damages on prisoners.

With regard to prison's cell, prisoners can be kept in it 6 months yearly, on the basis of injusticed law of criminal State of Serbia. That's horribly long time and cell is very little, without light and wet. So organism of individual person is planned destroyed with aim to make prisoner's life shorter...

What is solution for these problems?

The only solution is ABOLISHING OF PRISONS.

That's possible only through creating of anarchistic society 'cause in it has no economic inequalities between people.

Criminal Prisons, Deportation Prisons...

I: First I would like to say that leading tendencies in every society are created by elites who control education, medias and other „devices“ for (mass) control of society. The state is created by riches, nobody asked poor, slaves, anything. The same is with prisons. First prisons in history were created by riches, to put inside poor who took money but didn't give it back – but question would be: How they became richer than other in community? So, my opinion is that poor didn't have obligation to give it back, they just took back stolen. During the time, system of punishing is institutionalised so there is no more privat person who is punisher, executor, who could be targeted, hated, from poor. In the middle age, whatever someone did, many people had mercy for him when they see how he is screeming on the square during torture, killing, by executor. Therefore, authorities are trying during the time to hide, to move punishing from publicity. Elites make censorship about visit, letters, etc, they build criminal and prisons for deportation, refugee camps also, far away from cities, in woods or in fields, through education and with help of medias they successfully control the way of thinking of majority of people. Only prison's guards, their chef and victims know what's happening inside. All of this is quite clear if someone research history of the state, of prisons, of punishing... It is tendency of authority to build social state, to make people to be soft, pacifists (while the state realise repression), to hide from them horrible things, to make nice terms „in the name of nation“, censorship because of „interest of investigation“ or „of aim of punishing-correction“, etc. Everything of this has influence on people who are under control. For example, in January 2006, one media in Swiss published results of questioning of people: Should prisoners get worst food? 70% of asked answered: Yes. Such mentality authorities can't create without control of education, of medias also. Majority is thinking like it is interest of riches. Anarchists and activists should fight against it in the way which they find for good and effective. My opinion is that first step is to give information to the people about whole problematic: about situation in prison's, does prisons correct anybody (proclamated aims), to uncover „nice“ theory and to explaine to the people that prisons are revenge of riches, to uncover failure of system of justice, to show benefits of elites from prison's industry, etc. People don't react because of lack of information and because they are trying to addapt themselves in the time and in the system in which they are born, which they see around themselves. They are trying to find personal succees in all of it. Peope are participating without too much thinking, in general judgement of people who „crossed the line“. Beside lack of info, reason for such behavior is that people are feeling week like individuals against the system, and some people are simply carierists who don't care for others. Judgement, justifying of punishing is in any case favorised by elites, elites are creating public opinion and system, people just addapt themselves in it.
At this point I would like to mention that difference between East and West Europe is that youngs in Serbia don't discriminate so much someone who was in prison like it is case in West. It is caused by bad economic situation in last 15 years here: workers stayed poor while criminals became rich. So, for many youngs criminals are idols, criminals are symbol for enjoying in system where is enjoying connected with money. Older people in cities in Serbia also lost beliefs in the state, it is very visible in little country who had benefits from privatisation and from wars, many people had to participate in black market in order to survive. So, my impression is that discrimination of ex-prisoners is bigger in West. It was such discrimination in the time of dictator Tito. Ut now, because of economic destruction mentality is changed, people accepted some things like normal.
For the end of this first part I would like to remember readers that cops, judges, prosecutors, chefs of prisons, are not functions without name. Exactly people persecute, torture other people. These days I read in german's indymedia that 9 people are persecuted in Rom (Tombolino got 9 years for sending of „bomb“ which exploded in hand of cop, second person 6 years for bomb attack on court house, third person got 3 years for damaging of McDonalds). In Hessen is opened, November 2005, first partly privatised prison... As we see, elites are very good organised, coordinated, they are not passive. Beside it, my opinion is that economic act can be political one also, because it can be resistance to exploitation, to hierarchy, etc. I say it because some people think that political prisoners are only those who attacked some president, etc. Especially when someone is illegal in West, without right to be exploited, or without possibility to find job, such person is criminalised by westeuropean authorities. Unfortunately, elites have good security so victims of illegals can be exploited class (on the street or anywhere).

II: Elites in West urope worked on it to seperate domestic from foreign workers, domestic from illegals, etc. The fact is that class of exploited is separated and it is case with anarchists from East and West. If some anarchist from East come to the West without visa and without money, everybody will run away, nobody will help. West is for me consisted by egoistic individuals who help only if you are in sex relation with them or if you are long time friends. Of course, illegals have no time to make so long friendship. So, if people who are in better position, domestic citisens in West, don't help like individuals, or if they don't create organised infrastracture for giving of information and for giving of help, they will staye little groups, they will not succeed to meet illegals, foreigners with anarchism, with movement. It is enough to say that fight of illegal person is finished after first arrest (at protest, at squatting, or at legitimation on the street) because of deportation, but fight of domestic against system is continuing after 48 hours of arrest.
Illegals are underclass, without right to be exploited, to get social help, even if they find work in black chef can say: I don't want to pay to you. Therefore, before or later such situation bring illegals in this or that kind of prison. It is clear that elites work against all of us, but it is the fact that illegals and foreign workers get only verbal support from anarchists and from activists. Illegals are left alone. Even in french riot last year, illegals and foreign workers cooperated together, they are not connected with domestic people.

III: Prison for deportation in Basel, Swiss, was full of people. About 80 of us, although it was constructed for maybe double less. Therefore, administration built bed up over beds on the ground. This prison is new, 6 years old, but administration make life inside harder. They closed doors of cells half hour before it is written in House Order, so we had to eat inside of cells and result is that cells stink whole night on food. I was in cell with 2 beds, 9m+2m WC without door just 1m far away from bed. They limited our time to ask for doctor. Doctor will always refuse to help, don't know what they do when someone dies. It is such mentality of Swiss, plus surely such instruction from administration. Prison's guards are trying to make life more nervous. You must ask them (if you demand they will learn you that you should ask) 100 times to get something for hygiene, sometimes they will control you to the skin when you come back from doctor to the cell, etc. On TV we had slovenian channel although people from this state don't finish in such kind of prison, newspaper we could order only from listing created by administration, only one time weekly. So, except of limiting of freedom and of nervous because of insecure situation (about deportation), boredom and prison's guards are the biggest problem for imprisoned. Therefore imprisoned should have someone outside for contact, for help. Letters, someting like Diskman and CDs with music, books, are necessary things for imprisoned, to help them in „fight“ against boredom.
Prisons for deportation are with xenophobic administration, the same like criminal prisons. Imprisoned can be less xenophobic in prisons for deportation than in criminal prisons. That's my impression.

IV: We can see that in prisons in Spain people die "from hart attack", that Baskian are beaten by spanish nationalists, etc. So it is reflection of control of state represive departments which have control of mentality, ruling rules, in prisons. I was in custody, not in prison, in Belgrade, called Centralni zatvor-CZ. Inside, mostly people are xenophobic-they hate everything what is not from Serbia, who is not xenophobic he will addapt himself in ruling opinion which is created by the main persons in cells. There is violence of stronger over weaker, youngs will always use any chance to be authority for others, older are okay. 2004 it was allowed one time weekly to take a shower. 2005 it was allowed 2 times weekly. 2005 was allowed to have radio. One part of CZ is new, built for ex-political elite and for their killers. They have modern cells, everyday warm water, 3 beds per cell. Ordinary cell in old part of CZ is 30 square metters, with 12 or 14 people. CZ is very old, so we had to wash dishes and cloths in WC with cold water, the door of WC is with holes so it stinks when someone is inside, ventilation is natural... Simply, too many people in small place and place is very old.
Beside CZ which is custody and prison for junkies, well known prisons are in Sremska Mitrovica, Zabela in Pozarevac town (in Zabela is the only prison for women) and prison in Nis. After dethroning of Milosevic, October 2000, shefs of prisons are changed. New ones are marionettes of new elites so again some people have privileges, for example ex-director of national TV in Zabela. The only one NGO which can visit serbian prisons and make reports is Helsinki Comeettee for HR in Serbia (www.hls.org.yu (http://www.hls.org.yu)) so at their website you can read details about condition of life in serbian prisons. I found one woman's NGO who visited women in Zabela but they don't want to give to the people to read reports.
Reception part of CZ is responsible for mixing of "big" with "little" criminals because they decide who will go in which cell. One boy, who was "friendly tortured" said: When I go out I will work honestly I will not do anything against the law“. His words are reaction on torture. Therefore I say that "big" are cooperators of administration because they realise wish of represivve departments: that little criminals give up from such thing. So "big" "correct" people. Such rules which exist in cell are created by administration and "big" just realise it. "Big" get privileges for it: warm water every evening, improvised body building, exchanging of messages between cells, etc. I can describe relation between "big criminals" and prison's guards like relation between father and son. Father like son whatever he is doing, till moment when he cross the line-till he is not bad with guards-if he cross the line, groups of "fathers" will beat him 2 days. In every cell there are 1 or 2 "big" who decide everything. It is so about strike also. If leaders in cells decide to strike, everybody follow them. So chef of prison must negotiate with them. But like "father and son", they always find compromise. Individual strike can succeed but very rarely. If you demand your rights, first you will meet sceptic at other imprisoned, second doctor and judge will try to scare you or to send you at psychiatry because of such your behavior.
So, way of thinking in prisons are created by secret agency, by administration, and it is realised by "big criminals", therefore opinion inside is xenophobic, therefore inside is ruling hierarchy and violance.

In any case, I don't have information that some anarchist or activist is in prison in Serbia (now there are 5 of them in custody). During the state of emergency (year of 2003), Rata from ASI was 3 days in custody just because he is an anarchist. But as I said, for me, people who do something for money can be also political prisoners if it is some their refusing to be exploited and to accept to have chef. In Serbia here is no especial group for prisoners, but anarchists are surely interested for such topic, among other ones. For more info I recommend to readers to visit libraries-especially of Faculty of Law, to find reports or magazines of activists and of NGOs, to contact groups which are in contact with imprisoned, to help with letters, with music, with books...etc. Please, update Addresses, ABC in Hamburg is not at Address, email of ABC from Copenhagen is not correct, etc.

spice756
5th October 2009, 10:53
Well none of this here explain how the prison industrial complex works..

From what people tell me the prison industrial complex a set of intrest groups ,corporations and businesses some how profit and get congressmen to past tough on laws or the 3 strike law.

Richard Nixon
6th October 2009, 02:32
Here are my proposals on prison reform.

1. Institutionalize more criminals in mental hospitals rather then jails.
2. Put up recovery centers for drug addicts and prostitutes but don't encourage those practices.
3. Put up tracking monitors on convicted criminals in exchange for reduced sentences.
4. Execute criminals faster with firing squads rather then lethal injection.

And BTW the prison system has reduced crime in the US compared to the '60s and '70s.

RGacky3
6th October 2009, 10:05
And BTW the prison system has reduced crime in the US compared to the '60s and '70s.

With that logic I can also say that landing on the moon reduced crime.

More statistics than not show that prison creates repeat offenders.


3. Put up tracking monitors on convicted criminals in exchange for reduced sentences.

That goes claerly against human rights.


2. Put up recovery centers for drug addicts and prostitutes but don't encourage those practices.


drug addicts and prostitutes should'nt be in prison in the first place.


1. Institutionalize more criminals in mental hospitals rather then jails.

I agree, many people in prisons are mentally unwell and need actual care.


4. Execute criminals faster with firing squads rather then lethal injection.

Why death sentance at all?

Richard Nixon
7th October 2009, 01:41
With that logic I can also say that landing on the moon reduced crime.

More statistics than not show that prison creates repeat offenders.




That depends....do you release them after only five years or give them life or even forty years? If it's the latter as the trend is recently then I don't think criminals will be commiting crimes outside of jail anymore.


That goes claerly against human rights.

Well rapists, child abusers, and others violated the human rights of other people and this is in the interest of public safety so they won't commit crimes anymore.




drug addicts and prostitutes should'nt be in prison in the first place.

I agree which is why I said they should be given therapy.




I agree, many people in prisons are mentally unwell and need actual care.


Good if only deinstitutionalization hadn't happened...



Why death sentance at all?

Only against murderers.

which doctor
7th October 2009, 02:49
And BTW the prison system has reduced crime in the US compared to the '60s and '70s.
Do you have any actual sources for that or is making up inane facts more your style?

Richard Nixon
7th October 2009, 03:32
Do you have any actual sources for that or is making up inane facts more your style?

From The World Almanac and Book of Facts 2006:

Year Population Murder and Non-Negligent Manslaughter

1982 231,664,458 21,010

2003 290,809,777 16,503

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32920060/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/

Yes and it says some of the murder rate going down may be due to police not solving it or crime not being reported, still it is undeniable that New York City is a far safer place then in 1975.

RGacky3
7th October 2009, 07:19
That depends....do you release them after only five years or give them life or even forty years? If it's the latter as the trend is recently then I don't think criminals will be commiting crimes outside of jail anymore.

There IS NOT link between harsh prison terms and less crime, infact it goes the other way around. BTW, crime in prison also counts.


Well rapists, child abusers, and others violated the human rights of other people and this is in the interest of public safety so they won't commit crimes anymore.


What percentage of people in prison are rapists and child abusers?


Only against murderers.

Why? is vengance yours saeth the Richard Nixon?

Robert
7th October 2009, 14:44
53% of the U.S. prison population is composed of violent offenders, 19% property crimes (theft, burglary) and 20% drug related. The drug-related offenses are typically drug dealers, not crack addicted prostitutes
caught with a user amount in her purse.

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/prisons.htm

US studies from 1994 report that approximately 5% of all convicted offenders were sex offenders, however this number varied considerably, with almost 10% in state prisons and only 1% in federal prisons (BJS 1994).

http://www.insideprison.com/Sex-Offending-and-Offenders.asp

You guys need to set aside the books for a second and go down to your local courthouse, watch a criminal docket, for the whole day, and see for yourself who is being sentenced to lengthy prison terms and who walks out with probation or some kind of diversion program. Talk to some prosecutors and defense lawyers.

Please.

which doctor
7th October 2009, 18:12
From The World Almanac and Book of Facts 2006:

Year Population Murder and Non-Negligent Manslaughter

1982 231,664,458 21,010

2003 290,809,777 16,503

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32920060/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/

Yes and it says some of the murder rate going down may be due to police not solving it or crime not being reported, still it is undeniable that New York City is a far safer place then in 1975.

In no way does that information suggest a correlation between the harshness of the US prison system and declines in crime.

Richard Nixon
8th October 2009, 01:49
In no way does that information suggest a correlation between the harshness of the US prison system and declines in crime.

The United States since the 1970s and 80s has gotten tougher on crime with the RICO Act and the War on Drugs.

RGacky3
8th October 2009, 11:35
The United States since the 1970s and 80s has gotten tougher on crime with the RICO Act and the War on Drugs.

So what? THat does'nt proove anything.

Bud Struggle
8th October 2009, 13:21
Here's a good example of how too many things are turning into crimes:

http://washingtontimes.com/news/2009/oct/05/criminalizing-everyone/?feat=article_top10_read

You don't need to know. You can't know." That's what Kathy Norris, a 60-year-old grandmother of eight, was told when she tried to ask court officials why, the day before, federal agents had subjected her home to a furious search.
The agents who spent half a day ransacking Mrs. Norris' longtime home in Spring, Texas, answered no questions while they emptied file cabinets, pulled books off shelves, rifled through drawers and closets, and threw the contents on the floor.
The six agents, wearing SWAT gear and carrying weapons, were with - get this- the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service.

Kathy and George Norris lived under the specter of a covert government investigation for almost six months before the government unsealed a secret indictment and revealed why the Fish and Wildlife Service had treated their family home as if it were a training base for suspected terrorists. Orchids.
That's right. Orchids.

By March 2004, federal prosecutors were well on their way to turning 66-year-old retiree George Norris into an inmate in a federal penitentiary - based on his home-based business of cultivating, importing and selling orchids.

It's a pretty frightening article.

which doctor
8th October 2009, 16:46
The United States since the 1970s and 80s has gotten tougher on crime with the RICO Act and the War on Drugs.
Correlation does not prove causation.

Richard Nixon
10th October 2009, 04:14
Correlation does not prove causation.

One can say the exact same thing about say the industrialization of Russia during Stalin's rule.

Nwoye
10th October 2009, 13:57
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JaMBEIM0kM&feature=related

Misanthrope
11th October 2009, 03:32
American prisons are turning into labor camps. Rehabilitation practices are going way down while forced labor practices are increasing. Great point.

Bud Struggle
11th October 2009, 13:12
American prisons are turning into labor camps. Rehabilitation practices are going way down while forced labor practices are increasing. Great point.

From what I've seen (in Florida) the labor isn't forced--it's actually something of a privilege to be chosen to dio work. The prisoners are payed a few cents on the dollar so they can make a couple of bucks at the end of the week and they have something to do all day instead of rotting in their cell.

SouthernBelle82
14th October 2009, 02:26
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8717420224951230336&ei=mgTJSpHzOpWz-AaGh9n8Bg&q=documentary

I personally think that prison reform (I advocate abolishing prisons as we know them altogether), should be a much bigger issue for leftists, the prison system in America is extreamly inhumane and extreamly uncivilized, this is something that needs a lot more attention.

As a criminal justice major I so agree. People are ignoring the problems and only one politician, Senator Webb, has addressed it as far as I know. Maybe other's did and I just missed it but I know he has talked about it and he's for reform. Private prisons are popping up a lot more as well and that, to me, is dangerous too.

RGacky3
14th October 2009, 18:25
One can say the exact same thing about say the industrialization of Russia during Stalin's rule.

Ok so you admit your analysis was bullshit and your excuse is, "well you guys might have done it too".