The EU

[Lyev]

I was wondering about it's significance. Apparently it's good for trade. If so, how? And what would trade between European countries be like without the EU? Oh, and does it possibly create jobs or something?

I was also wondering why some people might be against it and why some people might be for it. Also how does the Lisbon Treaty tie in with it, if it does at all?

Oh, and my final question is, as leftists, communists and anarchists where should we stand on these issues?

Thanks for any replies.

[rosa_rot]

A union of european countries is a great idea, in theory. Europe has spent all of its existence with smaller and bigger wars, and now there is not one going, so this has to be called a sucess. And, people got to know eachother. I know french people, italians, british and poles...that wouldn't have been possible 60 years ago.
So far so good...
But seeing WHAT THE EU ACTUALLY IS, you will have to throw up disgusted.
It's an undemocratic, burocratic machine, it subsidizes capitalistic concerns, makes the education system of a whole continent an assembly line for new human capital, destroys african economy and lets the refugees that come over the ocean die in the sea etc etc...
Idea good, realisation aweful.
The Lisboa treaty makes it worse: more military, more monopoly capitalism, less democracy.
Europe, as the richest region of the world, should have to show solidarity with the poorer parts of the world.

And, how communists should see it (don't know about anarchists)...I can tell you how I see it (as a communist): A union of the states of an continent is the first step to a internationalistic society. It keeps peace, richer states help the poorer ones, people learn solidarity, true democracy can exist.
But the EU as it is, is no better than the USA, for the reasons above.
The EU is my enemy, Europe is the thing to fight for. And not only Europe, but also a united world (aw, please don't talk about the UN:mad:)

PS: edited for spelling

[Q]

Death to the EU, long live the European Republic! :)

The first is a product of capitalism, inherently instable and thoroughly corrupt. The latter would be a direct result of a socialist revolution, as a first step towards a World Republic.

[Spawn of Stalin]

I'm strongly in favour of a European union, but very much opposed to the European Union. As it stands the EU empowers capitalism and basically allows the fat cats to do whatever they like, the EU also requires massive privatisation, you can't have socialism in the current EU. Europe also now has its own crude form of affirmative action, governments encourage people to cross borders so that they can work for fuck all, saving the capitalists massive amounts of money and widening the gap between the rich and the poor. Mass immigration between members states has also prompted a shift to the right in recent years with many European parties openly declaring their fascist intentions. The EU is a great contemporary example of why economic freedom should not exist.

[Rjevan]

Apparently it's good for trade. If so, how? And what would trade between European countries be like without the EU? Oh, and does it possibly create jobs or something?
Well, the introduction of the Euro was an important step, now all members of the EU (with exceptions like the UK, Sweden, etc.) use this currency, so that inter-european trading has become more easily while states like Italy have a more stable currency now, which is, of course, again good for trade, dealing with states that might fall into inflation every second is risky gambling. The EU has put up guidlines about the maximum inflation in every country (I think it's max. 3% of the GDP of a year), if you break those charges you either have to pay penalties if you are already an EU member or you are accepted if you want to become member of the EU.

Further the tolls for trading goods don't exist anymore, you had to pay toll at every border in past time, now you can ship/send your goods all throughout the EU and don't have to pay every time you leave/enter a country.

Every citizen of a state which is member of the EU is granted the right to live and work within the EU wherever he/she wants, so cheap workers from e.g. Eastern Europe come to the West in the hope of getting rich and living like people in the wealthy West and the capitalists engage these people for low wages, lower than those of Western Europeans. If taxes are too high for a company they simply source their company out and move to a country where business gets boosted, taxes are low and workers are cheap. So they creat jobs in those countries this way.


I was also wondering why some people might be against it and why some people might be for it.
I mentioned some of the negative points already above, in the last paragraph about jobs, people from poorer countries get exploited, business companies cause unemployment and have a tool to blackmail governments ("Decrease your taxes or I'm gone, bet the voters won't like more unemployment, huh?"), further the EU massively serves global capitalism, since the EU started as the "Treaties of Rome (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaties_of_Rome)" and was an economic community from the very beginning, a tradition which is continued as you can see above.

Also many people fear that the EU takes away the rights of the national states, e.g. that an EU law will replace every single national law one day and that the local governemnts will become like the federal states of the USA in a USE. Thus many nationalists passionately hate the EU, too. The EU also expands constantly and shows imperialist tendencies.


Oh, and my final question is, as leftists, communists and anarchists where should we stand on these issues?
Well, like rosa_rot, Q and Red Son said, the current EU is a capitalist union with the aim to maximise profit and should therefore be opposed by leftists but of course a socialist Union of all European countries, ensuring peace, wealth, democracy and freedom would be a very positive achievement... sadly the reality is quite the opposite.

[Q]

The CPGB has an interesting bit about the European Union (http://cpgb.podbean.com/2009/10/04/the-irish-yes/).

[Comrade Gwydion]

I'm amazed that I actually can agree with most posts so far!

I am very, very, very pro-europe, but not this europe. The Lisbon Treaty is crap, as far as I can tell. It encourages privitisation and it calls for higher military spending (every state should, according to Lisbon, spend at least X% of it's budget on defence), etc. The fact that more power should go to European Parliament, is something I encourage, if it would actually go to European Parliament.
As it is, the parliament itself is ignored by invisible organs in the EU. It went so far, that a large part of the parliament performed as we call in dutch, extra-parliamental actions (or: demonstrations) inside the parliamentairy building. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2JJlI9swbsA

So, if Europe was democratic and socialist, then yes. The current EU? No. Somewhere in between would still have my support, but would have to be changed radically, by us ofcourse.

Oh, and a good thing: they bring more envorimental laws than national government.

[FSL]

The european parliament is just as reactionary as the Comission or any other EU organs. More power to it wouldn't make it more democratic, it'll just make fooling people easier.

And EU passes environmental laws because Europe doesn't produce its own oil/natural gas, nor does it have control -established militarily or otherwise- over regions that do, like the US. Therefore, the so caleed green economy can help in making the european bourgeoisie more independent and give them the advantage in a new market.

Someone could argue that any environmental law is good but in practice what we get is a capitalist having stocks in a "green" company that gets all sorts of tax cuts and public funding, also having stocks in many other companies, that maximize profit by polluting.


Needless to say I 'm very much against EU.

[rebelmouse]

I was wondering about it's significance. Apparently it's good for trade. If so, how? And what would trade between European countries be like without the EU? Oh, and does it possibly create jobs or something?

I was also wondering why some people might be against it and why some people might be for it. Also how does the Lisbon Treaty tie in with it, if it does at all?

Oh, and my final question is, as leftists, communists and anarchists where should we stand on these issues?

Thanks for any replies.

how is it good for trade?
well, EU abolished borders in order to make bigger and easier business for rich people. beside it, the law is now equal about property, so spreading of EU give possibility to riches to buy cheap property in Romania and other poor countries. For example, Danish businessmen can make farms of pigs in Romania and export it for whole EU, as they did it from DK now they will have bigger profit when they do it from Romania. Factories are moving toward East, again it is bigger profit for riches (car and phone industry, etc).
does it create jobs?
Yes, it creates jobs or better said: exploitation. In Yugoslavia we had jobs in the time of socialism and nobody saw it as privilege. Politicians promised better life in capitalism, but when we became capitalists, we saw it is a lie. now media speak us many years that we should be happy if we have job. but we HAD job in socialism and could go to holiday and could buy new motorcycle or used car, etc. now we can not, we hardly have money for food and we have debts for electricity bill, phone bill, etc.
but at other side, if we didn't become open for foreign capital, we would be again bombarded by NATO. so, small country can't resist successfully to corporations and their politicians and military.

why people are against EU?
mostly people who are against EU, are antiparliamentary political educated people. the rest of population is under control created by medias. so such people are against EU because EU serves to capital(ists) and not to the people. people have minor benefits from EU and even many benefits exist only on the paper (Polish will be refused for job in Denmark, just because he is not from DK, even on the paper people are equal). what to say when one Danish judge punished man/thief from Litvania with deportation after prison, even he has no right by the law to punish him with deportation because he is citizen of EU. so, racism is strong and EU is united only on the paper, ordinary people see that equality is dead letter on the paper.

as anarchist, I am against any state, hierarchy, economic exploitation, economic inequality, patriarchy, pollution, etc. it is everything created by EU and its corporations which finance politicians.
There is possibility that we can organize ourselves better for fight against capitalism when there are no borders, but we should not forget that it is small benefit if you compare it with negative effects of creating of EU.

[Holden Caulfield]

I just want to make a small point of order.

The Commission, the Parliament, the Secetariat, the entire body of the EU is not something seperate from states control. I has no authority over them. It is a slave to their will.

It does what the states tell it to, if they do something they don't want it to do (illegalize kettling protests for example) they are pressured into changing their mind to fit into the plans on the member states.

It is nothing but a tool for the capitalist classes to better exploit people, and to blame for things they do to deflect criticism.

[Q]

I just want to make a small point of order.

The Commission, the Parliament, the Secetariat, the entire body of the EU is not something seperate from states control. I has no authority over them. It is a slave to their will.

It does what the states tell it to, if they do something they don't want it to do (illegalize kettling protests for example) they are pressured into changing their mind to fit into the plans on the member states.

It is nothing but a tool for the capitalist classes to better exploit people, and to blame for things they do to deflect criticism.
That is not entirely true. While it may be true that the bigger countries, notably Germany, France, the UK, Italy and Spain, have a big say, this doesn't go for Latvia, Luxembourg or even the Netherlands (although it is a relative big player, given its seize).

[Holden Caulfield]

That is not entirely true. While it may be true that the bigger countries, notably Germany, France, the UK, Italy and Spain, have a big say, this doesn't go for Latvia, Luxembourg or even the Netherlands (although it is a relative big player, given its seize).

True the Eastern States don't have the same influence but this is the same if the EU didn't exist. But the EU acts in the interests of Eastern States ruling capitalist classes who are of the same ruling strata as the political elites. The EU serves their principles otherwise they would simply leave it or not have joined it in the first place.

[Die Neue Zeit]

The Failed Promise of Eastern Europe (http://www.newsweek.com/id/216614)

What's your opinion on the backwardness of Eastern European societies and the politico-economic imperialism of the bigger powers in Western Europe?