Kim Il Sung - what's the deal?

[spiltteeth]

I know his son Kim Jong Il is a bit...uh, colorful, but reading a recent article on North Korea it stated that his father, Kim Il Sung, instituted a policy of "stalinism from below," which is a phrase I've never heard of before, and that the govt didn't lead, but just followed events.
What's the deal with this guy?

Here's the article, it's mostly on N. Korea turning capitalist, http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Korea/FL14Dg01.html

[Shin Honyong]

He's referring to the fact that de-Stalinization was carried out from below, not that Stalinization was started from below (weird wording).

As for Kim Il Sung... there is alot that could be said about him. What do you want to know?

[spiltteeth]

I was wondering if he was a real revolutionary, if he's worth looking into. Did he really try to create a socialist nation, or was it strict state authoritarianism from the start? What were his revolutionary accomplishments? Or was he simply power hungry?
In other words, if there anything he can teach us that might be useful?

[Shin Honyong]

I was wondering if he was a real revolutionary, if he's worth looking into. Did he really try to create a socialist nation, or was it strict state authoritarianism from the start?

Er.. hard to explain. Kim Il Sung, when he first arrived on the scene, did not call for a "socialist" state per say but for a "people's democracy" of Koreans. He allowed numerous non-Communists and "progressive" capitalist forces into the DPRK as long as their anti-Japanese credentials was solid. He was much closer to the peasant population than the working class and the peasants in the DPRK reaped most of the benefits of the new government for a while. While the workers committees (that were setup after independence) was eventually co-opted and absorbed into the government, the peasant leagues were mostly autonomous and remained that way until the late 50s. In many ways Kim Il Sung had much in common with Mao in both his favoritism towards peasants and his belief in forming an alliance with progressive liberals before socialism came to be. Among Korean Communists, Kim Il Sung was probably the least orthodox Marxist out of all the major leaders (like Pak Honyong or O'Kisop)


What were his revolutionary accomplishments?Outside of his anti-Japanese legacy, his "revolutionary" accomplishments aren't that impressive. North Korea was already going under a revolution with the people's committees setup all over the country, and workers had already controlled the means of production and kept the country running. Kim Il Sung kept much of this going and offered progressive reforms that were needed (land reform, gender laws, ect). Unfortunately, his labor policies were actually more conservative than the status quo as he co-opted the committees and removed workers management from the escene. The people's committees were far more radical than the communists, advocating for complete workers control of the economy while the Communists were more reformist (They only advocated worker control of Japanese factories, but not factories owned by patriots). Furthermore, many of the progressive gender laws were overturned much later and women in the DPRK pretty much had the same role as they did in Confucian society (produce babies).


Or was he simply power hungry? Hard to say. Early on? Probably not. After the 50s? Probably. Power corrupts.


In other words, if there anything he can teach us that might be useful?The road to hell is full of good intentions?

All seriousness aside, he did a good job at building a broad support from the masses pretty early on, especially when you consider the fact he was very young (Most of the "There was another Kim Il Sung!" rumors probably stem from the shock of how young he was when he finally appeared in public) and there were numerous Communists in Korea that were more established than him. He is also would be a good example of the dangers of centralization for those critical of Leninism and its descendants.


Of course, I come from a more libertarian viewpoint so I'm pretty sure many Marxist-Leninists will have a different viewpoint on him.

[spiltteeth]

Thanks so much for the informative reply! I learned more from your post than all the articles I've read on the internet,
I've also read he eventually completely broke with, and renounced, Marxism-Leninism, in inventing 'Juche.' What's interesting is that, in the world encyclopedia, Juche is listed as the 10th largest religion. Rather disturbing when an ideology becomes an actual religion, a possible danger for some rigid dogmatic Marxist-leninist's.

[scarletghoul]

I don't think he completely broke with and renounced Marxism-Leninism, as North Korea was still allies with the USSR, and Marx and Lenin are still highly respected in North Korea. Juche is Kim's unique brand of revisionism which is mostly based on Marxism (with korean nationalism and stuff added in). It's certainly not a religion. There's a widespread misconception that Juche is nothing but dogmatic love for the Kims, but this is not a core part of Juche and there is a lot more to it.

URGH I have to go but ill respond more later

[Sasha]

there are numurous threads about juche on this board so i advise you to use the search function but i will add to scarletghouls post above that one of the unique aspects of juche's "revisionism" is the transfer from the worker (or peasant) as the primerly revolutionary force towards the militairy.

[Dr Mindbender]

I know his son Kim Jong Il is a bit...uh, cororful,

wtf is this? :confused:

[spiltteeth]

wtf is this? :confused:

By 'colorful' I meant the absurd personality cult that deifies him, especially on his B-day such as :

http://i971.photobucket.com/albums/ae191/spiltteeth/kimmbday.jpg

http://i971.photobucket.com/albums/ae191/spiltteeth/kimmm.jpg

[scarletghoul]

Kim Il-Sung also had a ridiculous personality cult. Anyway I'm guessing the Dr Mindbender was asking about your use of the incorrect spelling, which seems to conform to the general racist attitude that Kim Jong-Il is a crazy infantile asian


one of the unique aspects of juche's "revisionism" is the transfer from the worker (or peasant) as the primerly revolutionary force towards the militairy.
Actually I believe the idea of the military being the driving force of revolution is a policy of KJI's 'Songun', which is kind of his complementary addition to Juche.

[Dr Mindbender]

By 'colorful' I meant the absurd personality cult that deifies him, especially on his B-day such as :



I understand that, i want to know your reasoning behind the chauvinist spelling of 'cororful'.

I dont think it's appropriate for a radical leftist forum.

[spiltteeth]

What incorrect spelling? The amount of Hero worship borders on the religious.
Does anyone here consider themselves Jucheist's?
I know there are several international organizations :
The International Institute of the Juche Idea
Juche Idea Study Group of England
Songun Politics Study Group USA

[spiltteeth]

Oh, I just noticed I spelled colorful "cororful", I didn't even notice that, I'll go back and edit, that was unintentional.

[Revy]

There is actually a big difference between the regimes of Kim Il-sung and Kim Jong-il.

Kim Il-sung presided over a bureaucracy, similar to how China has functioned. However, Kim Jong-il moved toward a dictatorship.

[scarletghoul]

Oh, I just noticed I spelled colorful "cororful", I didn't even notice that, I'll go back and edit, that was unintentional. That's quite a big finger slip. And awfully coincidential, considering you were writing about the most orientalised figure in the world today and you italicized the word. :lol:

Anyway
The amount of Hero worship borders on the religious.First, it's really difficult for us to know to what extent the personality cult is observed. Certainly the western media likes to portray North Koreas as a mindless brainwashed homogenous mass who all worship kim and do as he says without thought, but theyre certainly exagerating. Also, it's not like North Korea is the only country with a personality cult.


Does anyone here consider themselves Jucheist's?No active members now, as far as I know. I've come across a few before however. They occasionally show up.

I know there are several international organizations :
The International Institute of the Juche Idea
Juche Idea Study Group of England
Songun Politics Study Group USAYeah, the international Juche stuff is pretty interesting. It's quite popular in Africa it seems, which is somewhat understandable due to its anti-imperialism, self reliance, building a strong country in defiance of western imperialism and exploitation

[spiltteeth]

I've heard that the book North Korea: Another Country by Bruce Cumings*exposes alot of the western myths about N. Korea, it's controversial here in America, its been called anti-American', I do plan to get it.

Incidentally, I do artwork, and I'm a big fan of N.Korean art, its kind of pop propaganda retro, its just so hard to find.


I swear that misspelling wasn't intentional, but to make up for it I'll post 2 pics that can be used for badass tattoo purposes:

http://i971.photobucket.com/albums/ae191/spiltteeth/KimJongIl.jpg

http://i971.photobucket.com/albums/ae191/spiltteeth/280.png

And look! Kim Jong Il approves -
http://i971.photobucket.com/albums/ae191/spiltteeth/badguy001_kim.jpg

[Spawn of Stalin]

While I don't follow the Juche Idea I do sympathise with its aims. Marxism-Leninism is something which can be adapted to suit almost any nation regardless of its current situation, when it comes to places like Europe and North America, developed nations with strong and well established capitalist economies, Marxism-Leninism is best. Juche would not be ideal as a universal system, but it is well suited to "special circumstance" nations, Korea has few noteworthy allies and is basically in a de facto state of war, Juche provides a degree of stability for DPRK that just wouldn't exist otherwise. Juche encourages active citizen participation on a much higher level than Maxism-Leninism, this is necessary if a country like DPRK is to survive imperialism. Another country which could take inspiration from Juche in the future is post-Maoist Nepal, hypothetically if the Maoists were able to secure a complete victory in Nepal, they might very quickly find themselves isolated. Kim Jong-il has said that "policy must reflect the will and aspirations of the masses and employ them fully in revolution and construction", this, combined with a policy similar to Songun could aid the transformation of Nepal to a stable Marxist-Leninist state. Juche seems to be ideal for transitionary situations, which Korea has been in for decades, it could work in small, underdeveloped nations under threat from imperialism, other possibilities might include Somalia, Sri Lanka, the Palestinian state if one ever comes into existence. Purely hypothetical of course, I doubt any country other than DPRK will ever take on Juche as its official state ideology, but in theory, and under certain conditions, I don't think it is a bad idea at all.

[spiltteeth]

I actually found this video thing about dialectical sexual freedom and equality in N. Korea
http://www.yhchang.com/CUNNILINGUS_IN_NORTH_KOREA.html

In the western media N. Korea comes off as a very patriarchal society, so I do wonder at the truth, the video states the sexual freedom in N. Korea.

[Kukulofori]

I really doubt that that's serious.

However, in some of the only footage of the DPRK that exists, I can tell there are a lot of women in the army.

[Revy]

I really doubt that that's serious.


It's not. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young-Hae_Chang_Heavy_Industries) It's an art thing. Wikipedia says the site is based in Seoul.

[Die Neue Zeit]

There is actually a big difference between the regimes of Kim Il-sung and Kim Jong-il.

Kim Il-sung presided over a bureaucracy, similar to how China has functioned. However, Kim Jong-il moved toward a dictatorship.

Isn't it the reverse? The younger has relied mainly on the military bureaucracy.

[Shin Honyong]

In the western media N. Korea comes off as a very patriarchal society, so I do wonder at the truth, the video states the sexual freedom in N. Korea.

Women's freedom is fairly restricted due to social norms (even though legally they are equal). The society is still based on Confucian ideals, and gender based division of labor (with women taking maternal roles) is common.