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View Full Version : Banning, gagging and sacking the far-right is not the answer



Vanguard1917
1st October 2009, 16:25
A decent analysis published in the Weekly Worker, refuting the arguments of the no-platformists and state-interventionists who dominate the left.

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English Defence League stunts and the real lessons of the 1930s

http://www.cpgb.org.uk/worker/786/images/EDLdemo.jpg
Calls for state, local government and BBC censorship and bans will inevitably backfire against the workers’ movement, argues Ben Lewis

Doubtless bolstered by the British National Party’s recent electoral success, there has been a rise in far-right street mobilisations, leading to tussles with the police, Muslim youth and left activists, including those from Unite Against Fascism. On top of pickets and demonstrations in Birmingham, Luton and Harrow, a further rightwing provocation is planned for Manchester on October 10. At the heart of this sudden increase in activity has been the English Defence League.

However, the only EDL stunt that has gained any noticeable support so far has been in Luton last March. Its counter-demonstration was called against alleged al Muhajiroun Islamists, who marked the return of the Royal East Anglican regiment from a tour of duty in Afghanistan by jeering their parade and called for more troops to be brought home in body bags.

The EDF counter-demo tapped into the respectable nationalism of the mainstream and united it with football ‘Casuals’ and skinhead racists. British-Asian businesses were attacked by breakaway groups. Since then subsequent EDF actions have involved negligible numbers, but likewise serve to massively increase social tensions.

Formed by a motley crew of confused lumpenproletarians, convicted football hooligans and seasoned far-rightist lunatics, the EDL has ridden on the growing wave of anti-Muslim sentiment in the wider population. The EDL has, though, no coherent political platform or ideology and is organisationally loose, shadowy and prone to splinter at any point. It organises in so-called divisions and mainly by using blogs and Facebook.

Not irrelevantly, especially given the stupid and often hysterical leftwing commentary, the BNP is at pains to distance itself. The BNP insists that it does not engage in the sort of street provocations the EDL has become known for. It says it is now thoroughly committed to elections, not conquering the streets or sparking a premature race war. To underline the point, the BNP’s national organiser, Eddy Butler, publicly announced on September 4 that the EDL is a “proscribed organisation”. Henceforth it will be a “disciplinary offence” for any BNP member to be involved with EDL activities.1

In turn, the EDL says it disavows racism and ‘extremism ’and denies any links with the BNP. Despite that, the EDL’s numerous supporters have been photographed giving Nazi salutes on demonstrations and heard shouting slogans about hating ‘Pakis’ and keeping ‘Britain for the Brits’. True, there have been known BNPers and ex-BNPers operating in the EDL. Its website, for example, was constructed by BNP activist Chris Renton. However, it is quite clear that the BNP wants nothing to do with organising EDL street protests or to be associated with it in any other way. Nick Griffin craves respectability, votes and political power gained through the ballot box.

The EDL hypocritically blames the left, UAF and Muslims for the street violence. Apparently they are the planners and perpetrators of clashes which threaten “democracy” and “free speech”. Playing the anti-establishment card, it accuses UAF of being a “government-backed organisation with supporters including David Cameron, leader of the Conservative Party”.2 Whatever the spin, the EDL aim is quite clearly to whip up British chauvinist hysteria and divide working class communities.

The EDL has incurred the wrath of sections of the political establishment as well as the BNP and the far left. Communities secretary John Denham drew an analogy with the 1930s by linking the aims and approach of groups like the EDL to Oswald Mosley’s British Union of Fascists, although he admits the EDL does not possess the BUF’s “potency, organisation or threat”. Leading Socialist Workers Party member and UAF convenor Weyman Bennett agrees: Denham is “right to compare anti-Muslim hate groups such as the English Defence League (EDL) to the fascists that marched against Jews in the 1930s”.3

In 1930s Germany, Leon Trotsky correctly judged that the bourgeois parties had injected the workers’ movement with poison that would slowly kill it, but that the Nazis were more akin to a man approaching with an axe. This then informed strategic perspectives - Trotsky advised the workers’ movement as a whole to defend itself against the immediate threat so as to be able to deal with the slow poison.

However, in 2009, far-right groups like the EDL and BNP, in terms of their size, influence and the threat they pose to the working class movement, bear no comparison even to the Daily Mail-backed British Union of Fascists under Oswald Mosley, let alone Adolf Hitler and the Nazis.

Of course, especially given the current economic downturn and the austerity that lies ahead, that could quickly change. So the real point about looking back to the 1930s is to draw from them strategic lessons. Comrade Bennett likes to highlight some of the inspiring events of the 30s in the fight against the far right. The CPGB mobilisation to beat the BUF at Cable Street and the struggles in the workplaces and in communities are undoubtedly inspiring. But there is another side to the coin.

The CPGB embraced popular frontism in the mid-1930s, which meant lining up with trade union officials, Labour left, liberals, churchmen and film stars in a classless defence of democracy. The fight for working class political independence and socialism was effectively abandoned. And despite the SWP’s pretensions about UAF being a ‘united front’ in the spirit of Leon Trotsky, it is clearly a classic popular front, albeit of the unpopular kind. UAF cannot even advise a class vote in elections. Instead it just says: ‘Use your vote to stop the Nazi BNP!’

Not only is this reactive approach (what exactly are we for?) based on an overestimation of the far right’s current influence: it encapsulates the archetypal popular frontist distinction between the ‘respectable’, mainstream parties like New Labour, the Tories and even the United Kingdom Independence Party on the one hand, and the ‘illegitimate’ BNP and EDL on the other. Despite the EDL’s fantasies about David Cameron as a UAF supporter, the leader of a party whose history is synonymous with imperialist slaughter, national chauvinism, racism, gay-baiting and sexism would not be unwelcome on a UAF platform.

Ban them!

Alongside the left’s popular frontist approach is its increasing tendency to call for state bans, censorship and proscriptions.

The CPGB of the 1930s learnt the meaning of such measures the hard way. It campaigned for the banning of the BUF, using similar arguments about respectability and legitimacy to those of UAF/SWP. When the Public Order Act was passed in 1936, the CPGB soon found that the legislation was employed against its demonstrations, rallies and mobilisations. Indeed, whenever the going gets tough, the parties of the establishment (‘respectable’ ones, remember) are more than willing to bring down the full weight of state repression on the organised workers’ movement - we saw a glimpse of this during the miners’ Great Strike of 1984-85.

But whether for reasons of historical illiteracy or naked class-collaborationism, some will never learn. Perhaps unsurprisingly, the ‘ official communist’ Morning Star implores her majesty’s constabulary to “ban tonight’s planned ‘anti-Muslim protest’ outside Harrow Central Mosque in the same way they would do if a church, synagogue, chapel or temple was targeted.”4

Our friends in the SWP are no better. ‘Turn the BNP into HMP’5 has now become its mantra. After all, what would be a more effective means of denying Nick Griffin and co the “oxygen of publicity” than being locked up?

The problem with this approach, however, is that it fails to recognise that the main enemy - both in the immediate and the long-term sense - is precisely the capitalist state, upon which these comrades would bestow greater powers to deal with the ‘Nazis’. It is not actually illegal to stage a demonstration outside any religious establishment, nor should it be. After all, it is not inconceivable that the workers’ movement might wish to protest against the reactionary actions of a pro-establishment church, so why call on the state to adopt powers to prevent us from doing so? Similarly, it is not exactly unknown for working class fighters to be jailed for giving voice to unacceptable views.

Gag them!

Which brings us to the controversy over the BBC television programme, Question time. As the reader will be aware, the corporation has stated that it intends to invite a BNP leader to debate current politics with representatives of the main parties on a forthcoming edition - a decision that has not exactly pleased the SWP.

Writing in Socialist Worker, Michael Rosen states: “Like the street, the BBC is a public place and is indirectly publicly owned. The BBC has a responsibility to represent everyone. It has no responsibility to represent those who attack sections of the population and demand that they leave the country.”6

The mind boggles. If the BBC has a responsibility to represent everyone, then there is the obvious point to be made - the BNP, by tapping into the discontent amongst backward workers, is winning votes and getting elected. The appearance of a BNP leader on Question time would provide this minority with a form of representation. Moreover, if one’s criterion for a place on the show is that no panellist should “attack sections of the population and demand that they leave the country”, then this would see the number of invited speakers dwindle to virtually zero. After all, every one of the mainstream, ‘respectable’ parties supports immigration controls, which certainly involves attacking sections of the population and forcing them out of the country.

Implicit in Rosen’s moralism is something else - elitism. As soon as the ‘ordinary workers’ sitting at home see Nick Griffin mouth off some nonsense on Question time they will be won over to Hitlerism and holocaust denial!7

Now, this is not to say that any of those likely to challenge Griffin on Question time would be able to mount any kind of principled working class argument against him. That would require a champion of genuine socialism - not tailing the establishment consensus of the Denhams, Camerons et al.
And this is the point. What our comrades in the SWP, CPB and UAF seem unable to come to terms with is that the BNP‑’s relative electoral success will increasingly mean pressure to appear on various platforms, political debates, radio shows and more. It should be blindingly obvious that the tasks of Marxists now should not consist in appealing to the BBC to ban the BNP, but to start articulating our solutions and our programme, build our own electoral base, see our own councillors and MEPs elected, and force the establishment to start taking us seriously!

Unfortunately, even if the left were strong enough to be invited onto a programme like Question time, then our current ‘common sense’ would dictate such an appearance to be beyond the pale if it meant sharing a platform with a ‘Nazi’. In fact comrade Bennett et al would very likely ‘no platform’ themselves rather than make use of the opportunity to promote independent working class politics. They would rather hand the banner of decency, respectability and democracy to the stalwarts of the bourgeoisie!

Sack them!

The reaction to the BBC decision to invite the BNP onto Question time is just one example of the left’s elitism, lack of self-confidence and disdain for democracy.

Last week’s Trade Union Congress in Liverpool unanimously backed a call for urgent talks with the government to address the need to extend the ban on BNP members in the police and prison services across the whole of the public sector. This time it was Janice Godrich - deputy general secretary of the Public and Commercial Services Union and a member of Socialist Party in England and Wales - calling for more state powers.

Despite making noises about the “mainstream parties” needing to “urgently address the serious gaps in the policies that allow the BNP and far right to exploit division to suit their own ends”, she was quite clear that the ban should be extended. The “BNP’s message of hate and fear” stood in stark contrast to the values of equality and access for all on which public services are based.8 Socialist Worker carries exactly the same message: “It is absolutely right that BNP members should be banned from public sector jobs”.9

These comrades seem incapable of learning from history how such measures end up being used against our class. The Berufsverbot law passed against communists and fascists in post-World War II Germany had a disastrous impact. Anybody suspected of being a member of, or sympathetic to, the German Communist Party was hounded out of teaching in the name of defending the ‘public interest’ and upholding ‘democracy’ and ‘legitimacy’. Always it is the bourgeois establishment that decides who and what is legitimate.

We communists disdain to conceal our views as a party of intransigent, uncompromising and irreconcilable hostility to the capitalist system, its sham democracy and coercive state apparatus. In this we are an ‘extreme’ party like the BNP or the EDL - and are therefore just as vulnerable to ‘anti-extremist’ witch-hunt legislation. That is why the left calling for the state to arm itself with yet more powers is like turkeys voting for Christmas.

Once again, though, the ghost of the popular frontist 1930s is back to haunt us - only this time on a much smaller scale: first time tragedy, second time farce. Instead of opting for no confidence in the bourgeois state and fighting for the divestment of state powers, the left is acting as cheerleader for British it:‘democracy’ and the values of ‘equality and access for all’ that are at the heart of good old British institutions like the BBC.

In the last decade the BNP has gone from being an utterly marginal group to one that now commands a modestly healthy vote, has dozens of councillors and two MEPs. By contrast, the left is nowhere. Yet, to state the obvious, while the BNP can offer nothing but divisive dead ends, we have the only viable solutions for millions of people at a time when the capitalist system is so obviously failing humanity.

For communists, the various political tactics we can employ are not predetermined in some sort of religious manner. But this is unfortunately what they have become. Let us repeat: it is tactically as legitimate to organise physical defence against groups like the EDL or the BNP (including pre-emptively) as it is to ruthlessly expose their rotten ideas on a shared platform. As we have shown in previous articles, the best parts of our movement have always employed such a wide array of tactical weapons.
If we were actually making headway in rolling back the influence of the BNP, while simultaneously making new inroads for working class politics, then it might well be argued that we need to continue on the same course and perhaps pursue it with greater energy.

But facts can be stubborn things, and even a cursory glance at the relative strength of the far left in relation to the far right should at least pose some questions, if not necessarily the answers.

http://www.cpgb.org.uk/images/mailto_button.gif ([email protected]?subject=/worker/786/englishdefence.php) Respond to this article ([email protected]?subject=/worker/786/englishdefence.php)

Notes


bnp.org.uk/2009/09/the-english-defence-league-a-statement-from-the-bnp%e2%80%99s-national-organiser (http://bnp.org.uk/2009/09/the-english-defence-league-a-statement-from-the-bnp%e2%80%99s-national-organiser)
See: www.englishdefenceleague.org/uaf-spark-near-race-riots-in-birmingham-080809.html (http://www.englishdefenceleague.org/uaf-spark-near-race-riots-in-birmingham-080809.html)
www.uaf.org (http://www.uaf.org/)
Editorial, Morning Star September 11.
This phrase was coined by Weyman Bennett (then UAF convenor) when Nick Griffin was charged in 2006 with inciting racial hatred.
Socialist Worker September 26.
Weekly Worker correspondent Bob Potter exposes such a narrow outlook very well: “Are the arguments for racism really so dangerous, so contagious, so convincing? Given free expression, would fascism really win the battle for the human mind? Are the arguments for a libertarian society so unconvincing? If the answer to these questions is ‘yes’, our hopes for the socialist future are best forgotten, because, while people, given all the facts to make a rational judgement, choose an authoritarian solution, there will be no progress towards the classless society” (Letters Weekly Worker September 17 (http://www.cpgb.org.uk/worker/785/letters.php)).
The Guardian September 11.
Socialist Worker September 26.
http://www.cpgb.org.uk/worker/786/englishdefence.php

Pogue
1st October 2009, 17:23
However, in 2009, far-right groups like the EDL and BNP, in terms of their size, influence and the threat they pose to the working class movement, bear no comparison even to the Daily Mail-backed British Union of Fascists under Oswald Mosley,


Erm...


In the last decade the BNP has gone from being an utterly marginal group to one that now commands a modestly healthy vote, has dozens of councillors and two MEPs.

Right.


The CPGB mobilisation to beat the BUF at Cable Street and the struggles in the workplaces and in communities are undoubtedly inspiring. But there is another side to the coin.

:lol:

The CPGB actually tried to dissuade people from directly opposing the BUF in the way they did, instead encouraging them to attend a passive rally 'in solidarity with Republican Spain', so this is a load of shit. It was the decision of the anti-fascists independent of the puppet-masters to actually stop the BUF, which if anything is even more inspiring.

Most of this article does not apply to my point of view on anti-fascism as in solid Weekly Worker style, its an attack on another left wing group (or in this case, a number of left wing groups, the Weekly Worker is branching out I see :lol:), UAF, the SWP and SP.

Perhaps the most interesting thing here is how once again Vanguard1917, you seem to have completely and utterly missed the boat on what 'no platform' means. I know it helps in intellectual discourse to create a pet theory of what your opponent is actually saying, but genuine no platform, as in, the original, proper sense of the word, not the liberal, establishment corruption, means anti-fascists themselves stopping the fascists independently of the state, ruling class, etc. This would mean working class people using direct action to prevent fascists by whatever means neccesary. For us this doesn't mean begging the beeb to censor them or asking Griffin to gain martyrdom by getting thrown into the slammer, it means us, the working class, the anti-fascists, physically and ideologically making it impossible for the BNP/fascists to organise. Nothing more, nothing less.


It should be blindingly obvious that the tasks of Marxists now should not consist in appealing to the BBC to ban the BNP, but to start articulating our solutions and our programme, build our own electoral base, see our own councillors and MEPs elected, and force the establishment to start taking us seriously!

Although I am not a Marxist nor a electoralist so I don't believe in campaigning in elections, this is the only part of the article which makes a worthy point, i.e. that to fight fascism we need to advance our own politics, something UAF doesn't do.

Aside from that, this article is irrelevant to me but its dishonest for you to say it 'refutes' no platform.

Vanguard1917
1st October 2009, 17:46
Perhaps the most interesting thing here is how once again Vanguard1917, you seem to have completely and utterly missed the boat on what 'no platform' means.


In the main, for mainstream anti-fascist groups like the UAF, 'no platform' involves calling on the state to ban and censor. That's the reality. You may, of course, have another interpretation of what 'no platform' should mean, but what 'no platform' means in the real world, objectively, is a matter of fact: demanding state censorship.

Pogue
1st October 2009, 17:49
In the main, for mainstream anti-fascist groups like the UAF, 'no platform' involves calling on the state to ban and censor. That's the reality. You may, of course, have another interpretation of what 'no platform' should mean, but what 'no platform' means in the real world, objectively, is a matter of fact: demanding state censorship.

But its not. I don't support state censorship, neither does Antifa, yet we both also support no platform.

Vanguard1917
1st October 2009, 17:53
But its not. I don't support state censorship, neither does Antifa, yet we both also support no platform.

I know. But, with all due respect, neither you nor Antifa represent mainstream anti-fascism. I'm talking about what 'no platform' means in the main.

Pogue
1st October 2009, 17:55
I know. But, with all due respect, neither you nor Antifa represent mainstream anti-fascism. I'm talking about 'no platform' in the main.

Your talking about the position of liberal anti-fascist groups like UAF. UAF is one group in one country - Antifascism is a world wide movement, and Antifa Worldwide is commited to no platform and opposed to state censorship, as in the UK organisation.

My point regarding UK Anti-fascism still stands: No platform is not the same as state censorship.

revolution inaction
1st October 2009, 22:52
banning, gagging and sacking the far right may not be the answer, but its funny and the ****s deserve it.
Sorry didn't read the article but I should point out I don't advocate us campainging for the state banning the far right or people being sacked for there politics however revolting. I see no reason we should not stop them organising if we can though.

BurnTheOliveTree
2nd October 2009, 01:21
Vanguard - I was at a UAF meeting earlier, someone raised the idea that no-platform equated to state censorship and that we'd be better off debating them. They were very quickly told that what was meant by no platform was not just making the far-right 'illegal' so to speak, or "sorting it out from the top" but actually meant grass-roots action like the BBC camera-men refusing to work if Griffin was going to be there, anti-fascist demonstrations, and so on. I don't know if this contradicts normal UAF/SWP policy, but certainly their representatives at the meeting weren't up for state censorship.

Vanguard1917
3rd October 2009, 08:20
Vanguard - I was at a UAF meeting earlier, someone raised the idea that no-platform equated to state censorship and that we'd be better off debating them. They were very quickly told that what was meant by no platform was not just making the far-right 'illegal' so to speak, or "sorting it out from the top" but actually meant grass-roots action like the BBC camera-men refusing to work if Griffin was going to be there, anti-fascist demonstrations, and so on. I don't know if this contradicts normal UAF/SWP policy, but certainly their representatives at the meeting weren't up for state censorship.

The UAF and the SWP leadership both openly support state action against the BNP. That's common knowledge here.

That aside, the article also correctly criticises the elitist argument that the working class ought to be protected from the views of idiots like Nick Griffin. Whether you're calling on the state or 'BBC camera men' to enforce the censorship, the underlying assumption behind the censorship is that Griffin's views are so powerful and dangerous that the fickle and impressionable public need to be prevented from being exposed to them.

That's the opposite of what Marxists believe. We believe that wrong ideas are best destroyed out in the open, through free debate. To quote Marx himself: 'censorship makes every forbidden work, whether good or bad, into an extraordinary document, whereas freedom of the press deprives every written work of an externally imposing effect.'



My point regarding UK Anti-fascism still stands: No platform is not the same as state censorship.


Putting aside marginal groups like Antifa, for the bulk of the anti-facist movement in Britain -- which is what the article concentrates on -- the no-platform stance involves calling on state intervention.

Module
3rd October 2009, 10:28
The problem with this approach, however, is that it fails to recognise that the main enemy - both in the immediate and the long-term sense - is precisely the capitalist state, upon which these comrades would bestow greater powers to deal with the ‘Nazis’.Exactly!
I've never actually heard anybody claiming the BNP should be banned, but then I'm not involved in any kind of 'anti-fascist' action, but it was, perhaps coincidentally, on a poster at college as potential questions for debates in the 'debating society' :p. 'Should the BNP be banned?' and that was my first thought - which one poses a bigger threat to our liberties? An extremist party led by some crazy eyed fat man that shows little or no signs of gaining any further long term support? Or is it the state?
The answer really is obvious.
The BNP should be combatted in the communities in which they operate. Our legal right to join any political party and campaign for what political views we wish should be defended at all times. Is that not fundamental to a 'democracy' as opposed to the 'fascism' which some people are rabidly screaming about?

And personally, I look forward to seeing Nick Griffin on Question Time. I think Jack Straw will do a fine job responding to their obviously absurd politics. Even after Nick Griffin was elected MEP, his interviews with the BBC showed he was already floundering in a serious political environment; he has very little to say.

BurnTheOliveTree
3rd October 2009, 16:53
Well, okay. Certainly in the meeting I was at there was no suggestion that we would be appealing to the state for help against the baddies. In fact it was directly pointed out that this wasn't the way forward.

Thing is though fella, even if Nick Griffin gets totally destroyed on Question Time, he's still won. He's not going there to legitimately debate whether it's all right to hate black and asian and gay and Muslim people; he'd obviously look awful and I don't think for a second that anyone but a nutter minority would sympathise. He'll go there and lie about what the BNP is about - he's done it before in interviews, denying the allegation that he's a holocaust denier for example. Their website is full of crap about them not being a racist party, etc. He's just there as a stunt, to present a watered-down version of the core fascism at the heart of that party.

The underlying assumption is not that the working class are idiots. But there will be a section of society, in my view - whatever class - that hovers around the far right like UKIP who on seeing the BNP represented on Question Time will firstly be able to assume that the BNP is a legitimate party like other parties as opposed to Nazis in suits, and secondly assume that they are in fact not as bad as they're made out to be, because Griffin will misrepresent the essential nature of the BNP. I mean there's direct evidence that this is their policy, they've been caught plenty of times privately commenting on the distinction between what they say in public and what they actually are - fascist thugs who would be terrorising the streets if they had the strength.

It's not about banning them or making fascism illegal via the state - I completely agree with you on that score man. But I think it is about combatting these fuckers wherever they surface, and that doesn't mean letting them get the legitimacy of a BBC platform because we're naive enough to think it'll be a straight up debate.

Vanguard1917
3rd October 2009, 17:29
The underlying assumption is not that the working class are idiots. But there will be a section of society, in my view - whatever class - that hovers around the far right like UKIP who on seeing the BNP represented on Question Time will firstly be able to assume that the BNP is a legitimate party like other parties as opposed to Nazis in suits, and secondly assume that they are in fact not as bad as they're made out to be, because Griffin will misrepresent the essential nature of the BNP. I mean there's direct evidence that this is their policy, they've been caught plenty of times privately commenting on the distinction between what they say in public and what they actually are - fascist thugs who would be terrorising the streets if they had the strength


So you're scared of Griffin being on the Question Time because you think that he will essentially dupe the voting public into voting for his party? Isn't that what you're basically implying? Doesn't such an assumption hold the public, the vast majority of which knows that the BNP is an anti-immigrant party that does not like black people, in a pretty low estimation?

And if the BNP does have a hidden agenda, wouldn't that best be exposed through open debate, rather than through censorship?



BNP is a legitimate party like other parties


So the main parties of government -- i.e. the real enemies of progress in society today, made up of people who actually have powers to imprison, deport and terrorise immigrants -- are legitimate, but a tiny, basically powerless party is not?

The idea that the BNP has no legitimate place in nice, respectable parliamentary politics is the outlook of liberals and other defenders of the status quo -- not radicals. We recognise that 'respectable' New Labour and the Conservatives represent a far, far greater danger to immigrants, to rights and to liberties in British society than the BNP ever has done. They are a million miles away from being 'legitimate' political forces in our view.



But I think it is about combatting these fuckers wherever they surface, and that doesn't mean letting them get the legitimacy of a BBC platform


Two incorrect assumptions which you seem to be making:

1. That the BBC -- the capitalist state-run television network -- is in the first place a legitimate platform, so that it can provide political figures which appear on it with legitimacy.

2. That figures from the main parties of government who are given a platform on the BBC every day are legitimate.

Module
3rd October 2009, 18:33
Two incorrect assumptions which you seem to be making:

1. That the BBC -- the capitalist state-run television network -- is in the first place a legitimate platform, so that it can provide political figures which appear on it with legitimacy.

2. That figures from the main parties of government who are given a platform on the BBC every day are legitimate. Realistically speaking, both of those assumptions are correct. Certainly in the eyes of the public at the very least. (Obviously not official 'legitimacy' - if we're taking that word strictly by its definition both the BNP and the 'main parties' are 'legitimate'... )
The 'main parties of government' who are given a platform on the BBC every day are legitimate, and the fear that putting the BNP on the BBC legitimises them is perfectly understandable, as it puts them potentially on the same level as those 'main parties of government'.
I think that is why Jack Straw going on Question Time is such a good thing; he will show that they are politically speaking not on the same level (and I think it's silly for even a radical leftist to suggest that they are) - the BNP does not have serious rationalised political policies, and, BurnTheOliveTree, as was demonstrated in the interview with the BBC Nick Griffin gave in June, it does not take much scratching against the surface to expose the BNP as racist, and I don't think there's any reason to fear the scratching is going to be inadequet on the night.
Whilst I understand the outrage, the knee jerk reactions to everything BNP are really frustrating to witness at times.

Vanguard1917
3rd October 2009, 18:48
The 'main parties of government' who are given a platform on the BBC every day are legitimate, and the fear that putting the BNP on the BBC legitimises them is perfectly understandable, as it puts them potentially on the same level as those 'main parties of government'.
I think that is why Jack Straw going on Question Time is such a good thing; he will show that they are politically speaking not on the same level (and I think it's silly for even a radical leftist to suggest that they are) - the BNP does not have serious rationalised political policies, and, BurnTheOliveTree, as was demonstrated in the interview with the BBC Nick Griffin gave in June, it does not take much scratching against the surface to expose the BNP as racist, and I don't think there's any reason to fear the scratching is going to be inadequet on the night.


But the main parties of government are, as i pointed out, the main enemies of immigrants in Britain -- government ministers like Jack Straw are, after all, the ones that order immigrants to be locked up and deported. Is there something 'rationalised' about their politics? Should we really be favouring these main enemies of freedom and democracy in British society in order to shut down a political party that is in comparison absolutely powerless and irrelevant?

Pogue
3rd October 2009, 19:04
Putting aside marginal groups like Antifa, for the bulk of the anti-facist movement in Britain -- which is what the article concentrates on -- the no-platform stance involves calling on state intervention.


What do you base this one? Without trying to seem like I'm getting ad hominem, your not actually involved in anti-fascism in the UK are you, so how would you know whether or not the majority of us adhere to state intervention or not?

Furthermore you've practically reduced yourself to saying nothing: "All anti-fascists in the UK are pro state censorship except the ones who aren't", dressed up with words like 'marginal' to obscure the fact you don't have a clue what your on about.

BurnTheOliveTree
3rd October 2009, 19:28
So you're scared of Griffin being on the Question Time because you think that he will essentially dupe the voting public into voting for his party? Isn't that what you're basically implying? Doesn't such an assumption hold the public, the vast majority of which knows that the BNP is an anti-immigrant party that does not like black people, in a pretty low estimation? It's not exactly the BNP being voted for that worries me - they're an electorally insignificant force at the end of the day, certainly for the forseeable future. I would say my concern is that they become viable as a force on the streets - lets please not forget that this is what they're about, they're not just a party with controversial stances, they want to "defend rights for whites with well directed boots and fists" and in the past they've been able to do this, bombing gay bars and going into pubs in immigrant communities and kicking everyone's heads in, etc. I mean seriously if you were in a pub and that happened, your response would not be to debate with them in order to expose their lunacy to everyone else, would it? Griffin is just the acceptable public face of that kind of shit, in my view. Why should we be allowing him the opportunity of a platform, with the danger that he can build his party to the point where they can do that sort of thing again?


And if the BNP does have a hidden agenda, wouldn't that best be exposed through open debate, rather than through censorship?In an ideal world, yes. But the world is not some isolated debating chamber where it will be a gentlemanly duel between fascism and the rest of us. He's not there to debate! That's the bottom line as far as I can see it. He is there to garner whatever support he can by whatever means and that will include lying and deception and appealing to people's genuine anger at the status quo. And I don't mean to be facetious, right, but the strategy of debating fascists in the open using democratic channels didn't work in Germany. Might sound crass but that's the fact of it, the nazis went through democratic channels, got openly debated and criticised all the way, got into power and then dismantled those democratic channels. What did stop them in the end was not debating the merits and drawbacks of nazism, it was stopping them directly. And that's not an implication that the German working class were idiots, it's a reflection of the fact that they were in economically desperate times, Hitler offered a cheap scapegoat to that genuine anger and lied about the more extreme elements of his movement. A la Griffin. I'm not saying the two are exactly comparable, but the situation is certainly analogous I would argue.


Two incorrect assumptions which you seem to be making:

1. That the BBC -- the capitalist state-run television network -- is in the first place a legitimate platform, so that it can provide political figures which appear on it with legitimacy.

2. That figures from the main parties of government who are given a platform on the BBC every day are legitimate.

I didn't mean to say that they were legitimate literally. The BNP won't magically become actually legitimate by virtue of being on the BBC. But certainly in the public perception, if you're on Question Time, then you are representing a party that is just like other parties - not true.

Take a look at the clips of like Andrew Marr interviewing Griffin in the past. Didn't work as an exposition at all, there were one or two bits where he seemed to dodge a point, but that's standard practice for politicians, again reinforcing the idea that this bunch of Nazi thugs are similar to the mainstream ones.

Melbourne Lefty
4th October 2009, 10:29
Playing the anti-establishment card, it accuses UAF of being a “government-backed organisation with supporters including David Cameron, leader of the Conservative Party”.


Well ummm...

The govt is Nu Labour, which is supported by the same unions that support the UAF, its tenous, but not really that much. The UAF has dominated the anti-fascist scene in the UK because they can afford the resources to do so. They have the ready cash.

And the Tory leader was a signatory to the UAF. I dont think its ever been retracted.

Vanguard1917
4th October 2009, 10:38
It's not exactly the BNP being voted for that worries me - they're an electorally insignificant force at the end of the day, certainly for the forseeable future. I would say my concern is that they become viable as a force on the streets - lets please not forget that this is what they're about, they're not just a party with controversial stances, they want to "defend rights for whites with well directed boots and fists" and in the past they've been able to do this, bombing gay bars and going into pubs in immigrant communities and kicking everyone's heads in, etc.


So, instead of voting for Griffin, you're worried that people are going to hear Griffin's silly arguments on Question Time and start going out on anti-immigrant and anti-gay pogroms? Again, this displays an elitist disdain for the British public -- an assumption that they're impressionable, fickle, easily led astray upon being exposed to nonsense on TV. We need to view the masses with far more respect than that.

Of course the BNP can win and has won the support of some small sections of British society. But the way to stop that is not through bans and censorship. It's, surely, by challenging the views on which the BNP's support rests, in order to explain to working class people that the BNP does not represent their interests.

The pro-censorship left -- in typically elitist form -- calls for gagging orders precisely because it does not trust the working class to make up its own mind.



And I don't mean to be facetious, right, but the strategy of debating fascists in the open using democratic channels didn't work in Germany.


Then you need to learn about German history. The rise of fascism in Germany was not caused by there somehow being too much democracy (!), but by the fascist suppression of democracy. Even as a street movement, before it achieved state power, the Nazis in Germany relied on shutting down public debate through force (e.g. attacking the meetings of communists and trade unionists) in order to progress as a political movement.

While 'no platform' is dogmatically accepted by almost every group on the left today, that certainly was not the case in Germany. It is well documented that the German Communist Party held public debates with the Nazis on a number of occassions. And, crucially, it was the Nazi Party which eventually pulled out of such arrangements -- because it was losing too many members to the Communists.

The idea that fascists progress because there is somehow too much political debate in society gets things completely the wrong way around. It is precisely conditions of suppressed democracy which reactionaries depend on in order to advance. The suppression of democratic, free and open debate does not benefit the working class and progressive politics -- it always benefits reaction.