The new world order people

[Dimentio]

Is it just me, but isn't conspiracism more akin to a religion than a political ideology? And don't claim its marginal. It is very much an undercurrent of the general social debate between people outside of establishment control (1/3 of the Americans for example believe there was something yiffy 'bout 9/11).

Conspiracism is a rapidly growing movement today. Why?

And why is it so that the Illuminati/Masons/ZOG always are behind things like the French Revolution, anti-clerical policies, urbanisation, sexual liberation, women's and minorities rights according to the proponents of this theory? It doesn't strike me as particularily evil just...

(okay, I am a bit ironic, but I think we should discuss how to counter conspiracy nutteries)

[Tatarin]

Is it just me, but isn't conspiracism more akin to a religion than a political ideology?

Sure, its probably a mix of both. But they back it up with what they think is "reliable proof", which of course can be read in NWO-controlled newspapers and seen on NWO-controlled television.

It's a resemblance, I would say, to any movement that sees hope in bad times - even if it's about 9/11 or social change.


And don't claim its marginal. It is very much an undercurrent of the general social debate between people outside of establishment control (1/3 of the Americans for example believe there was something yiffy 'bout 9/11).

It depends on where it is. I guess the United States is the biggest "believer-place" in conspiracies, but I think there is a slow growing interest in Europe also.


Conspiracism is a rapidly growing movement today. Why?

Not that I know the answer, if there ever is one, but I would say it is "because everything has been tried". Nazism didn't work, communism didn't work. Capitalism isn't working. There were never a king Arthur and a utopian Camelot. But these systems were there, and people with power did rule them (well, the king Arthur-part would be feudalism). Thus a conspiracy - why else is it that every system is ruled by small groups that talk to each other?

I also believe that conspiracism is a self-fulfilling prophecy. Say, "the next president will continue the war or start a new one". From someone who has never known socialism, that's a bit of a prediction. But then the war do continue, and other countries do get attacked. Of course, everything adds up then.

What about the political parties, aren't they different? Apparently not, the rich remains rich and the poor remains poor. Some things change, but not on the scale of what followers of conspiracism wants. Surveillance increases, new acts get started, police and security firms get more protection, and it's all in order to protect the "normal person".

To shorten it down, socialism has been talked away to a system that represents the gulag, mass graves, war, starvation and everything else between page 1 and 500 (or whatever size it is) of the Black Book of Communism. Socialism - in their eyes - is just as bad as capitalism. So they turn to conspiracism.

The anti-dote is to introduce the real cover-up: the cover-up of the history of fighting people all over the world, the fight for socialism. It is to educate them that replacing a few "rotten eggs" won't solve the fact that more such eggs will be produced, the answer is to kill the hen that produces them.


And why is it so that the Illuminati/Masons/ZOG always are behind things like the French Revolution, anti-clerical policies, urbanisation, sexual liberation, women's and minorities rights according to the proponents of this theory? It doesn't strike me as particularily evil just...

Well, the conspiracy needs to be connected to everything, else it wouldn't be a conspiracy. They make up everything, and connect everything, to the conspiracy - which is of course against their own view of the world, may it be one without Illuminati, masons or jews. You will often find those people propagating conservative Christian views.

On that note, the Illuminati that existed in the 1700s could be considered as a progressive group. They propagated free thought, were against the succession of kings, and many other things that at that time were considered blasphemy (kind of the situation socialism is in now). Why they would first create the revolutions that made progress (from a historical point of view), and later on try to control the world with such evil things as feminism, neutral marriages, social security and pensions is, well, beyond me as well. :)


(okay, I am a bit ironic, but I think we should discuss how to counter conspiracy nutteries)

It's how we deal with everyone who don't understand socialism: education. Too little of it these days. :(

[jake williams]

Conspiracism is a rapidly growing movement today. Why?
The people who are susceptible to conspiracy theories tend to be people with a feeling that they have very little material or cultural control of their own lives and communities. This lack of control is because of capitalist hegemony, but that same hegemony - and more importantly for us, the total contempt of most leftists for the working class, because they're not culturally sophisticated or politically correct enough - prevents them from gaining a real understanding of exactly why they feel powerless. It's really pretty simple and obvious when you think about it if only for a moment.

[NecroCommie]

I would not call some 9/11 theories conspiracy theories, since most conspiracy theories are ideas first, and the "evidence" later. With 9/11 theories the theories were born out of the differences between the official story and mathe-fucking-matics. Whether it is a conspiracy or plain incompetence of american scientists remains to be seen, but neverteless it has a grain of truth in it.

And fine, I belive in some of those theories... :blushing: (by some theories I mean some 9/11 theories)

[makesi]

Is it just me, but isn't conspiracism more akin to a religion than a political ideology? And don't claim its marginal. It is very much an undercurrent of the general social debate between people outside of establishment control (1/3 of the Americans for example believe there was something yiffy 'bout 9/11).

Conspiracism is a rapidly growing movement today. Why?

And why is it so that the Illuminati/Masons/ZOG always are behind things like the French Revolution, anti-clerical policies, urbanisation, sexual liberation, women's and minorities rights according to the proponents of this theory? It doesn't strike me as particularily evil just...

(okay, I am a bit ironic, but I think we should discuss how to counter conspiracy nutteries)


The reason why they talk about the Illuminati and the Masons and the French Revolution, etc. is because this stuff is nothing new. About 9-10 years ago, I got into this shit fairly deep, reading the Malcolm Caldwells, Ralph Eppersons, G. Edward Griffins, Webster Tarpleys, and others of this movement.

Nesta Webster was writing "conspiracy theory" literature about the French Revolution and Babeuf back in the 19th century. These movements emerge in historically determined moments, or, at the very least, allowing for their recurrence, their arguments are deeply colored by the historical (and social) moment in which they are writing. Look at the US populist Alex Jones, for instance. His rhetoric, from what I can tell (I stopped years ago paying any serious attention to the go) has shifted: he has stayed more or less rightwing and has common "conspiracy theory" elements but he is, in my opinion, as truly incoherent (i.e. not simply a huckster) as his opinions themselves are, and, thus, emerging from obscurity out a--at least so-called--liberal stronghold in Texas, i.e. Austin, the political tint and nuances of his views have made minor, although, in my opinion perceptible, shifts in nuance and tint.

I don't think the vague, shifting, and diverse ideology behind these movements is growing; rather, I would say that its noticable presence is traceable to larger cultural and political-economic trends in US society. Many of the traits associated with the tendency to "popular" belief in conspiracy theories in the United States, I would argue, are quite long-standing and actually exhibit themselves across the US political spectrum in various forms: anti-intellectualism, strong suspicion and distrust of "the government," prevalent criticism of and fingerpointing towards "bureaucracy," and a generalized, ahistorical individualism which is conducive to arguments reducing social issues to questions of bad apples, evil individuals, cabals operated by "them," etc.

In terms of countering these views, I would probably go by a case-by-case basis. Someone who has taken the time to "delve" into these theories and study them "in depth" (I think I could arrogantly say that I have few, if any people, who have a greater familiarity with them than myself) is probably worthless in terms of trying to change their minds--you are not going to change their minds about bi-metallic specieism, the insidious and overdetermining role of the Federal Reserve, etc. A lot of these views are connected to the frustrations of angry white males about their felt lack of control and powerlessness in a society that sometimes confounds their ambitions and which they feel (with a subconsciously racist view that they should be privileged--and sometimes no so subconscious, as in when they talk about immigrants, etc.) owes them something as the supposed true hardworking and loyal members of it. Those individuals quite often have a more or less coherent worldview. A disgusting and poisonous worldview, no doubt, but, nonetheless, a worldview, not simply a mishmash of confused notions about masons and jews, etc. I don't mean to say their worldview is not riven with contradictions or that it, even for a reactionary one, is somewhat underdeveloped--I simply mean to say that, at a certain point, trying to change their minds is an exercise in futility.

Now, sometimes, you will meet (and I have) leftists whose worldview is influenced by conspiracy theories. Those individuals, because of their basic leftwing worldview, can be approached with more radical and systematic arguments.

[9]

Is it just me, but isn't conspiracism more akin to a religion than a political ideology? And don't claim its marginal. It is very much an undercurrent of the general social debate between people outside of establishment control (1/3 of the Americans for example believe there was something yiffy 'bout 9/11).

Conspiracism is a rapidly growing movement today. Why?

And why is it so that the Illuminati/Masons/ZOG always are behind things like the French Revolution, anti-clerical policies, urbanisation, sexual liberation, women's and minorities rights according to the proponents of this theory? It doesn't strike me as particularily evil just...

(okay, I am a bit ironic, but I think we should discuss how to counter conspiracy nutteries)

Thank fuck someone has finally made a thread about this. I am perpetually in awe of the amount of people that believe this nonsense, or some variation of it. And thank you, also, for bringing up the parallel between new age conspiracy theory and religion. This is something I have observed for a long time, and it always strikes me how many on the left are happy to hammer on about the dangers of religion incessantly but have absolutely nothing to say about the conspiracy nutters. In fact, I have gotten the impression from many - including many on this forum - that much of the left would be more than happy to "absorb" the conspiracy nutters, theories and all, which strikes me as extremely blatant, potentially catastrophic, opportunism. The difference, as I see it, between the religious and proponents of new age conspiracy theories is that, for the latter, there is no line between religion and politics; on the contrary, their religion is their politics, and their politics their religion. This, from my line of thinking, makes the latter (proponents of conspiracy theories) immeasurably more dangerous than the former (the "formally" religious).
[As an aside, I actually had an argument with someone who believes this shit on deviantART a couple weeks ago. He is a proponent of conspiracy theories and he, more or less, seems to think that the Masons/Illuminati/J00z-basically control the world. During the course of our argument, I accused him several times of believing in "the mystical religion of conspiratology". Most of the debate, aside from a couple links to what he alleged to be the word "JEWS" on the new dollar bills which he PMed me, is viewable in the comments portion of my "journal" on my deviantART page (the link is in my signature).]
To be honest, I have never had any luck reasoning with hardened conspiracy theorists. Many conspiracy theories are like Kabbalah - a total crock of bullshit but designed to be completely unfalsifiable. This aspect makes correcting the more "committed" believers a tremendous challenge, as their claims are such that they cannot be disproved.
The mechanism of many modern conspiracy theories is to take a general set of broad truths and half-truths and unite them all with a single universal (needless to say, bullshit) cause. This "cause" always involves a small group of people - some form of "shadow society" - which secretly controls the media, finance, every military, every government, every "Royal Family", etc. etc. essentially covertly controlling the whole world. The general manner of thinking is quite similar to that of a person suffering from paranoid psychosis.
It is quite understandable, however, that a person, particularly a young person or a person in the early stages of political inquiry, could come to hold such a belief. I think most conspiracy theories are formed upon very real problems - e.g. the influence of capital, (thus) rampant political corruption and deception, exploitation, disempowerment, alienation/isolation/"anomie", imperialism, etc. Which perhaps is why there seems to be this impulse among many on the left to join hands with proponents of this nonsense. But I think this approach is dangerously misguided. I think perhaps the impulse underlying this approach is correct, assuming the impulse is to reach out to (largely young) people who are massively disillusioned with the economic/political system and are in some sense aware of the lies with which they've been indoctrinated, for the explicit purpose of attempting to correct their misguided views, as opposed to reaching out to them out of opportunistic attempts to "broaden" the "lable" of "the left" by bringing in people who believe utter garbage.
But it is important, also, to make a distinction between the hardened believers and the younger proponents who can potentially be engaged and shown where and why their views are incorrect. The former (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Icke) are, to me, a totally lost cause and an enemy of any and all serious revolutionaries - basically the equivalent of anti-Semitic religious fundamentalists. The latter, as I have already suggested, need to be engaged and persuaded, in which case I think there is a lot of potential - seeing as they generally have realized in some way, shape or form that the "present system" (capitalism) is a failure - of bringing them around to reason and perhaps laying the foundation for revolutionary consciousness in them.

[Dimentio]

In Sweden, conspiracy theorism was very popular in the 90's. In 1991-1992, Sweden was hit by an enormous economic crisis driving unemployment up to 15% (ordinary numbers was about 2% before the crisis, the lowest in the capitalist world). I know that antisemitism and theories about masons were very popular during that time. There was even a quite large association called "The Bank Justice Association" composed of small company-owners who've lost their companies to the banks and therefore wanted to sue the banks. But they eventually descended into conspiracy nuttery, believing in Jewish and communist plots to derive them of their companies.

Strangely, as I have noticed in Sweden, the majority of conspiracy theorists are women in their 40's and 50's with right-wing centrist beliefs combined with environmentalism. Often, they are believing that Jews control all the banks, that Israel and USA are evil, that there is a worldwide communist plot, that the "Gaia energy" needs to be replenished by "love" and that crystals could heal people.

Was even a magazine called "Nexus new times" which sold in quite large numbers, espousing theories about aliens, alternative medicine, conspiracies and so on.

Shortly speaking, in Sweden the New Age scene is the carrier of conspiracy bullshit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9qYXbN3kyw

(Tomas di Leva has not supported any conspiracy bullshit, but he's the prime representative of the new age subculture in Sweden)

[9]

In Sweden, conspiracy theorism was very popular in the 90's. In 1991-1992, Sweden was hit by an enormous economic crisis driving unemployment up to 15% (ordinary numbers was about 2% before the crisis, the lowest in the capitalist world). I know that antisemitism and theories about masons were very popular during that time. There was even a quite large association called "The Bank Justice Association" composed of small company-owners who've lost their companies to the banks and therefore wanted to sue the banks. But they eventually descended into conspiracy nuttery, believing in Jewish and communist plots to derive them of their companies.

Strangely, as I have noticed in Sweden, the majority of conspiracy theorists are women in their 40's and 50's with right-wing centrist beliefs combined with environmentalism. Often, they are believing that Jews control all the banks, that Israel and USA are evil, that there is a worldwide communist plot, that the "Gaia energy" needs to be replenished by "love" and that crystals could heal people.

Was even a magazine called "Nexus new times" which sold in quite large numbers, espousing theories about aliens, alternative medicine, conspiracies and so on.

Shortly speaking, in Sweden the New Age scene is the carrier of conspiracy bullshit.

p9qYXbN3kyw

(Tomas di Leva has not supported any conspiracy bullshit, but he's the prime representative of the new age subculture in Sweden)

Yep, the tie between the New Age "culture" and conspiracy theories is also huge in the US. My brother, who is a lifestylist hippie by any measure (he lives in a tent somewhere in Olympia), went through a phase where he got really into the "NWO" shit, with the Freemasons and whatnot. He was just completely convinced of this nonsense. However, it wasn't long before, in all his "research", he started coming across the claims of Jewish involvement, at which point he, a Jew, got a very rude awakening. Luckily he dropped it completely after that, but he's still a smug liberal lifestylist who spends all of his time outside of work immersed in Jungian philosophy, and he basically thinks people who shop at Walmart and eat at McDonald's are responsible for all the ills of capitalism, in spite of his working class status and background.
Another strange thing I've noticed is how many proponents of conspiracy theories are dudebro's. Its slightly amusing. Such as:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_QLhMSfZOYYw/SXIgrUPEL9I/AAAAAAAAAE4/zbfwJuSxzVo/s320/joerogan.jpg

[Dimentio]

You should tell him Jung was a nazi. ^^

[makesi]

Hahahaha. Joe Rogan. What a jackass.

I remember several years ago that guy said in a standup routine that he hated reality TV and thought that Rupert Murdoch was evil. He said he that he was waiting for the Running Man to come out in reality.

[jake williams]

I'm giving a bit more extensive explanation of what I think is basically a parallel phenomenon in the thread about "right wing populism".



I think the basic understanding presented here of "the phenomenon" - and there is certainly a set of phenomena that we can all see - is really not so great.

I think first we need some humility and need to say, we don't really understand what all this is about, who it's appealing to, what the internal dynamics of it is, what things are motivating people to do this, etc. - this is especially true for those of us who don't live in the States, but it's true generally I think because none of us are involved at all in these protests etc. Moreover even if we were, there is CERTAINLY a grassroot component that would be hard to figure out even if you were directly involved.

But I think we can certainly try to make some general claims. First, there is very clear direction "from the top" that we all know about - the Murdoch empire, whatever big right wing groups are funding either the actual protests, or sort of a political-informational infrastructure around it... my point is it's certainly not just spontaneous, and we all know that.

But we really have to ask ourselves, why is this appealing to people? I think there's a general recognition on the left, if you push people, that people are driven toward right-wing populism by shitty conditions - precisely the sort of conditions that Left wants to ameliorate. But this isn't taken very far or understood very deeply.

Moreover, the radical left, which tends to be (very broadly speaking) at least connected to university campuses, if not based there. There's a lot of petty bourgeoisie, and educated liberal urban working class. And basically they hate a huge part of the US working class. When Sarah Palin or Bill O'Reilly tells these people, the liberal elite in New York and Washington and San Fransisco and Hollywood, the liberal elite hates you - they're basically correct. Obviously I don't agree with where she would go from there, or even that she means it sincerely - but she's talking about a real phenomenon, about how a large part of the U.S. working class and even petty bourgeoisie is particularly powerless, both for material reasons and for political reasons. They're speaking about something that really appeals to a lot of people, not because those people are idiots, but because WE don't give a fuck about them because they're not sophisticated or cultured or politically correct.

Is there racism? Certainly there's racism, but it's really only an epiphenomenon. There was plenty of right-wing fantaticism under Clinton - and under Clinton, there was no economic crisis, which makes the objective situations that lead people to, failing a viable left alternative because we don't want to talk to them because they're "fascists" or "reactionaries" or whatever , right wing populism.

But yeah, there's racism. This is poor white people, or even not-so-poor white people who still have pretty shitty lives. They've been told this story, both from the "right" and the liberal "left", American capitalism is going to work for you, if you work really hard. Well, it doesn't - especially during an economic crisis - but it did work for Barack Obama. Liberals are exactly the people who care about racism (which I certainly do too), but who don't give a fuck about class and don't give a fuck about poor white people (whom we need to start caring about, not just pretending to care about, or we're fucked).

And poor white people tend to sense that, although they do end up with the pretty ludicrous belief that the Republicans and the U.S. right-wing, which really does, without exaggerating, have kind of a proto-fascist element, does care about them. They get the belief that the US right cares about them because they're the only people even pretending to care about them.

I think, basically, as long as this is the situation, "right wing populism" doesn't only make a lot of sense - it has very little to do with, effectively, a huge part of the US (and believe me, Canadian and I'd guess British) working class just being defective fascists who are somehow intrinsically racist.

[debase89]

i think people very much like to believe strange ideas. it makes life seem more interesting. That's why all the conscpiracy theories and stuff.

[Black&Red]

i think people very much like to believe strange ideas. it makes life seem more interesting.

Capitalist say the same things about leftists.

For some people we are controlled by satanic/Jewish/extraterrestrial-reptilians.:confused:

I remember seeing a stupid documentary by Alex Jones in which he said that the people who control the world in secret want to install a world government based that would be a mix between capitalism and communism and that they were going to achieve that by waving the environmental flag to unite every one to go to a on world government/country/religion/sexuality/penis-size or something like that...

I believe that capitalism is the conspiracy against the people.

[9]

I believe that capitalism is the conspiracy against the people.

Then what was feudalism?
Thinking in terms of conspiracies is flawed. There is no conspiracy. What's going on is very much out in the open, and its significance is on an institutional level, not an individual level. There is no sinister plot by evil people to ruin lives. The capitalist mode of production does not have as its goal "ruining lives". The goal is the maximization of profit, without regard to saving or ruining lives. The capitalists are acting with regard to their class interests.
Capitalism had a historical purpose, it has served its historical purpose, and it needs to be overthrown.

[bots]

guys i'd totally like to believe you, but what about the chemtrails?

[peaccenicked]

I was one of the first to call it an inside job. I am a life long socialist and a keen student of Marx and Lenin. The question is whether or not there was a conspiracy. There is two conspiracy theories. One says that Osama Bin Laden was the culprit. Though the FBI dont have him on the wanted list for 9/11. Many of the so called suspects are still alive. The
Left in general have went all cowardly on the facts. Though not Chavez or Castro.
These" lunatics" have the audacity to question the official story which was put forward by the 9/11 commission.
That they themselves now refute. http://inthesenewtimes.com/2009/09/28/he-911-commission-rejects-own-report-as-based-on-government-lies/

I have studied all of the evidence and counter evidence including the white wash from popular mechanics.
I say if Chomsky and Pilger came out as 9/11 truthers the rest of the left would follow suit. I have that much faith in independent thinking on the left, who have managed to marginalise a whole generation of left leaning young people who have at least taken
Loose Change seriously and the engineers joining the 9/11 truth movement.
http://www.ae911truth.org/

[Jethro Tull]

July eighth, 1979, all the fathers of Nobel Prize winners were rounded up by United Nations military units, all right, and actually forced at gunpoint to give semen samples in little plastic jars, which are now stored below Rockefeller Center underneath the ice skating rink

[9]

I was one of the first to call it an inside job. I am a life long socialist and a keen student of Marx and Lenin. The question is whether or not there was a conspiracy. There is two conspiracy theories. One says that Osama Bin Laden was the culprit. Though the FBI dont have him on the wanted list for 9/11. Many of the so called suspects are still alive.
I'm sorry, but you're forgetting one of the most popular conspiracy theories. We had a nutter come on this site a few months ago spouting it. Please have a look, it's about as difficult and time-consuming to read as a three page picture book.
Nutter Part One (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1484194&postcount=320)
Nutter Part Two (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1484195&postcount=321)


The Left in general have went all cowardly on the facts. Though not Chavez or Castro. Yes, Chavez and Castro, in usual form - bourgeois state-capitalist opportunism.


These" lunatic" have the audacity to question the official story which was put forward by the 9/11 commission.
That they themselves now refute. http://inthesenewtimes.com/2009/09/28/he-911-commission-rejects-own-report-as-based-on-government-lies/
Yes, in true conspiracist fashion, your references are to conspiracist websites. No thank you. Link me to a scientific journal or a respected Marxist review, and I'll consider giving it the time of day.


I have studied all of the evidence and counter evidence including the white wash from popular mechanics.
I say if Chomsky and Pilger came out as 9/11 truthers the rest of the left would follow suit. I have that much faith in independent thinking on the left, who have managed to marginalise a whole generation of left leaning young people who have at least taken
Loose Change seriously and the engineers joining the 9/11 truth movement.
http://www.ae911truth.org/I could launch into a whole novel about why this makes no sense from a Marxist perspective - about why it was not in the interest of the capitalist class to destroy two landmark buildings on US soil in a giant conspiracy that, by virtue of its sheer magnitude and the numbers of people who would necessarily need to be involved, would be essentially guaranteed from the get-go to not only fail, but indeed, to backfire. I could also point out that, for what would have to be such a brilliantly-orchestrated plot, it sure is funny that the conspirators didn't make the completely effortless provision to include Iraqi government agents - or even Iraqi civilians - in the list of "alleged" hijackers, when you "truthers" claim that the whole motive of the "conspiracy" was to justify invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan. I could also mention the fact that the US has been perpetually at war since WWII, and the ruling elite has never had to orchestrate a self-destructive domestic attack conspiracy to justify its wars.
But I've had these discussions with conspiracy-types before, and they're absolutely circular fruitless nonsense. Much like trying to prove to a typical J00z conspiracy nutter that John W. Snow's signature on the twenty dollar bill, seen here (http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b238/elizabeth1982/jewsbill.jpg), is in fact NOT a secret admission of guilt from the Judeo-Masonic-Marxist Conspiracy which says, simply, JEWS (http://i33.tinypic.com/i2odbr.jpg).
So I'm going to approach this from a different angle entirely....
I'll pretend, for the sake of argument, that 9/11 was an "inside job". What does this change? Am I suddenly supposed to be filled with previously unattainable levels of righteous indignation and revolutionary fury because the US government murders a few thousand predominantly white members of the petit bourgeoisie, whereas the countless impoverished brown-skinned human beings massacred in real life by the US government are, to you "truthers", merely irrelevant savages not worthy of a mass movement to demand truth and awareness for their uniquely non-pretend slaughter?
What is the goal for the "truthers", I wonder. What is it you hope to achieve? If you could magically convince a majority of the US that you weren't completely full of shit, what is this glorious outcome that makes the whole non-Marxist ahistorical distraction from class struggle and dismissal of non-shit politics that is "the 9/11 truth movement" worthwhile?
The outcome, at best, would be that you'd get a few ex-government officials lethally punished. How does that serve the cause of class struggle and workers' revolution? OH WAIT.... it doesn't!
What a tool.

[revolt4thewin]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lh4JHB3yo0s
"Think for your self"

[al8]

I myself have thought before that 9/11 attacks where a bit iffy. And I have revolutionary left friends that believe that the attacks where orchestrated by criminal elements within the US gov. It doesn't not detract from their regular radical work. And neither are they in any way New Agers, religious or racial bigots.

9/11-truth isn't all that important for me but others have more interest (or obsession even) and have given it more of their time, as things go. I find nothing inherently impossible for a government or elements therein to orchestrate such a thing - they have opportunity, means and motive. And we must not ignore the how blunt, cunning and ruthless the armed apparatus for minority class rule can be.


I'll pretend, for the sake of argument, that 9/11 was an "inside job". What does this change?

What it does change is the view that state=people, since it has no trouble with turning 'on their own' for imperialistic interests not just 'on some others'. This might shock some people from their comfort zone and conservative thinking.

It shows that the scapegoating and racial profiling of middle-eastern-looking people is ill-founded. My friend thinks this new framework of a terrorist-scare versus the old red-scare to be pivotal to how the ruling class apparatus conducts it's dominance in this period.

It can have a radicalizing affect, but as with any single issue it can only have so much baring.

[Dimentio]

I was one of the first to call it an inside job. I am a life long socialist and a keen student of Marx and Lenin. The question is whether or not there was a conspiracy. There is two conspiracy theories. One says that Osama Bin Laden was the culprit. Though the FBI dont have him on the wanted list for 9/11. Many of the so called suspects are still alive. The
Left in general have went all cowardly on the facts. Though not Chavez or Castro.
These" lunatics" have the audacity to question the official story which was put forward by the 9/11 commission.
That they themselves now refute. http://inthesenewtimes.com/2009/09/28/he-911-commission-rejects-own-report-as-based-on-government-lies/

I have studied all of the evidence and counter evidence including the white wash from popular mechanics.
I say if Chomsky and Pilger came out as 9/11 truthers the rest of the left would follow suit. I have that much faith in independent thinking on the left, who have managed to marginalise a whole generation of left leaning young people who have at least taken
Loose Change seriously and the engineers joining the 9/11 truth movement.
http://www.ae911truth.org/

And, what does it matter?

The legitimacy of the ruling class is not affected by whether it was an inside job or not.

[revolt4thewin]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WePTBgi9rXs&feature=related
Isn't she cute.:blushing:

[Luisrah]

I believe in some of those theories.

I believe that the twin towers falling was an inside job, for the USA to have an excuse to invade Iraq.

And I wouldn't be surprised if the cure for AIDS wasn't already found, but they didn't show it to the world because ''the condom sellers'' payed them off not to.
And I wouldn't be surprised if H1N1 was created in laboratory and ''escaped'', and this made all the world buy masks, alcohol, desinfectants, etc...

Just as so many things are biased in the world (communism killing 100million people for example) what is there to stop me from believing that conspiracies like those are true?
Heck, there's even some good evidence that the USA didn't go to the Moon when they said they did for the first time.

[Luisrah]

And, what does it matter?

The legitimacy of the ruling class is not affected by whether it was an inside job or not.

It is not affected?

So the people wouldn't react if it was proven that the USA made it all up to get an excuse to invade a country?

Oh yeah, it's all made up, so no problem. Wait, the victims weren't made up. People died there! Wouldn't the families and the shocked ones get angry?

I'm thinking that if it was proven, the USA would get a big punch in the stomach from it's people.
And who knows, with some socialist influence there, a revolution might come out.

[peaccenicked]

I could launch into a whole novel about why this makes no sense from a Marxist perspective

[Tatarin]

I believe that the twin towers falling was an inside job, for the USA to have an excuse to invade Iraq.

I keep hearing this about the United States needing an excuse to do things. Since when did a world hegemon need excuses? Since when did police, military, hell the whole state and its puppet parties need excuses?

Tell me the excuse they needed to drag themselves all the way to Kuwait in the 1990s, or Korea in the 1950s? What about the murder of president Allende of Chile in the 1970s, or their support of the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia?

But now, out of nowhere, they need an excuse?

And why is it that the towers had to be destroyed? It wouldn't make any difference if they crashed in anything, or blew up in the air. And it would make the whole conspiracy much easier than to wire the towers with explosives.


And I wouldn't be surprised if the cure for AIDS wasn't already found, but they didn't show it to the world because ''the condom sellers'' payed them off not to.

That's unlikely because if the USA already developed a cure, I bet China and Russia wouldn't be far behind. Plus, what would happen if China suddenly had the cure for AIDS? Or Russia? Perhaps they weren't the bad guys after all? :)

However, I don't think it is a conspiracy that big medical corporations get a lot of money producing pills that temporaliry halt the disease or lower the pains of those who suffer.


Heck, there's even some good evidence that the USA didn't go to the Moon when they said they did for the first time.

I have a hard time believing that, since most criticism of the moon landing's fact or nonfact is based on peoples' analyses of photos. Even here the conspiracy could be much more simplified by just claiming cameras malfunctioned while in space due to solar radiation (or some such thing). Good luck proving them wrong.


I'm thinking that if it was proven, the USA would get a big punch in the stomach from it's people.

And what would stop them from inventing a new story? That only a part of the government did that, or this or that political party, or why not the terrorists themselves? Hey, it's happening on TV all the time, so why wouldn't it in the real world?

And what, if this were to happen, would discourage capitalism? Since it was the government who did all this, shouldn't this mean that "we" need a much smaller government, or even no government at all?

[peaccenicked]

Who do you think you are kidding? Why cant you face the problem?
The lies from the 9/11 commission report.

[Lodestar]

It's a movement that generally shows up among reactionaries; I've found that most people who believe in the whole NWO/Illuminati/ZOG etc. global conspiracy tend to hold worldviews that aren't remotely rational or contemplative.

What is particularly alarming, as an American, is how prominent the conspiracy loons have become, especially in the "Tea Party" movement and the anti-Obama far-right (not that I'm in any way sympathetic to President Obama). It just seems to coincide with the general hysteria among the radical right; fear of social liberalism, socialism, multiculturalism, Islam, Jews, minorities...what have you. With the increase in hysteria coming from Evangelical Christians, coupled with the approach of that date in 2012... I'm not surprised we're seeing a rise in complete lunacy.

[peaccenicked]

Conspiracy " loons" include Chavez , Castro and many of the new Japanese opposition that has just taken government!

[Jimmie Higgins]

Overall, I agree, but on this one point I don't agree...

I keep hearing this about the United States needing an excuse to do things. Since when did a world hegemon need excuses? Since when did police, military, hell the whole state and its puppet parties need excuses?
The ruling class needs excuses when the ruling class doesn't feel they can get away with the things it wants to get away with.

In theory, why doesn't the US just nuke Iran? Because they would loose their hegemony, that's why. On of the powers of hegemony is that people accept that your order is the only way to go. When Israel bombed Lebanon, a few years back, they lost face because Hezbollah wouldn't give in.

The US wanted to clean up in Iraq and then move right on into Iran - they can't because they got bogged down.

9/11 was used as an excuse to rehabilitate the image of the US military (in the eyes of Americans - who generally haven't been so keen on the US military since Vietnam) as well in the eyes of other national powers.

... it just wasn't planned - it was an excuse, not some kind of plot. Otherwise, why wouldn't they just blow up a baseball stadium tomorrow and blame it on Iran?


Tell me the excuse they needed to drag themselves all the way to Kuwait in the 1990s, or Korea in the 1950s? What about the murder of president Allende of Chile in the 1970s, or their support of the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia?Um, 1) that Iraq was a regional "Hitler" intent on taking over the entire middle east. 2)Korea - they didn't need much of an excuse because they were coming off of WWII and a lot of international and internal support... but then they got bogged down, and US soldiers began to loose moral and the US decided to call it a draw. 3)Well they had to do that shit clandestinely and they had to use a proxy didn't they? 4) Don't know enough to comment.

But overall I totally agree that conspiracy theories are bullshit. Basically it's an excuse for cynicism... if you don't like what's going on, it's far easier to believe someone is pulling the strings and therefore it's impossible to do anything about it. For fear mongering conspiracy populists like Alex Jones or LaRouchie or whoever, that same sense that dark forces make all your attempts to change things moot, helps create a cult that looks to that fear monger to protect people and spread the good word.

[peaccenicked]

Gravedigger. You are right! I have no pretext for saying that. Imperialist War demanded
pretext. There are still fools on the left.
Pretext not just to fool the public but to scare the rest of the world.

The Western left will be the last to wake up.

[9]

Gravedigger. You are right! I have no pretext for saying that. Imperialist War demanded
pretext. There are still fools on the left.
Pretext not just to fool the public but to scare the rest of the world.

The Western left will be the last to wake up.

Yes, because in the troubled mind of "truthers", "waking up" consists of "saying the US government did 911". Class struggle, workers' revolution, things that actually matter are relegated to, at best, secondary significance.

[peaccenicked]

NO! because you cant fight a war with one hand tied behind your back. You may as well
say that the fight for gay, blacks, women's rights are a distraction. The demand for a new investigation is not based on any the conclusion that anybody has reached, but the idea that the government conclusion is unjust and inadequate.

The so called left have made themselves untrustworthy over this question and have nothing to say about the actual report
I call them out as liars and traitors

[9]

NO! because you cant fight a war with one hand tied behind your back. You may as well
say that the fight for gay, blacks, women's rights are a distraction. The demand for a new investigation is not based on any the conclusion that anybody has reached, but the idea that the government conclusion is unjust and inadequate.

The so called left have made themselves untrustworthy over this question and have nothing to say about the actual report
I call them out as liars and traitors

No, because the fight for gay, black, and women's rights has an admirable goal which makes it absolutely worth fighting for. The 9/11 "truth" movement, on the other hand....what is their goal? Do they have a goal? I mean, other than convincing people that the government/freemasons/Jews are covering up UFO landings, what is their actual objective?

[peaccenicked]

You seem to forget that 9/11 was the reason given to invade Afghanistan. Used again with Iraq. Used to enforce an empowerment of the president. Used to justify torture.
Just what planet are you living on.

The NWO etc stuff acts as smokescreen. Happy is the Military /Industrial complex.


Anybody that complains becomes a " conspiracy nut" . Ha ha!
Wake up
please!

[Jimmie Higgins]

NO! because you cant fight a war with one hand tied behind your back. You may as well
say that the fight for gay, blacks, women's rights are a distraction. The demand for a new investigation is not based on any the conclusion that anybody has reached, but the idea that the government conclusion is unjust and inadequate.

The so called left have made themselves untrustworthy over this question and have nothing to say about the actual report
I call them out as liars and traitors

Do you need to be convinced that these wars are wrong? Would you support the war if it happened to be not part of a secret plot by the US governmnet?

Is it really so hard to believe that some nut in another country would be so angry at US policy they would do something like 9/11. I mean domestic terrorists in the US blow things up because they're mad at the post-office or only being allowed to own 250 guns rather than an even 300.

The US government is powerful but it also has hubris and short-sightedness. If the governmnet was able to orchestrate 9/11 and everything after, and convince most people about it - why wouldn't Bush have just bombed the sears tower when his popularity or the war's popularity declined?

I think we can build solidarity and a movement against the war with all the PROVEN information we have right now about those wars and the US governmnet. We need to build an anti-war movement on the basis of anti-imperialism, trying to prove some plot won't build the kind of movement that's going to have solidarity with other people, organize soldier's resistance and a mass movement.

[peaccenicked]

I hear you. Gravedigger. I have been through similar pains. But the more I researched
the 9/11 events. From eyewitnesses to whistleblowers to ex MI5 to ex CIA. The whole story about the third building. The most convincing being a air traffic controller, there on the day. It was tragic. Triple tragic maybe
Would not it be nice if imperialism was kind?


The so called left have made themselves untrustworthy over this question and have nothing to say about the actual report
I call them out as liars and traitors
__________________

I do not say this lightly. I am for maximum solidarity. But when I watched the Jersey girls plea for a new investigation into their husbands deaths. My heart went with them.
A new investigation must surely be a good thing. The last investigation had many of the relatives unhappy.
I dont know why it is not an issue with Chomsky or Pilger or Michael Moore, perhaps they have been told to stay away.

I am a communist. Nothing to do with Russia. But a communist who believes that an injustice to one is an injustice to all.

The left don't want to tackle the issue on the most basic human terms.

There is also the political minefield.

Heaven knows why Loose Change did not spark a new investigation.

[Qayin]

Sources you want?
http://www.bentham.org/open/tocpj/openaccess2.htm

Click open 2009 content
"Active Thermitic Material Discovered in Dust from the 9/11 World Trade Center Catastrophe"


Abstract:
We have discovered distinctive red/gray chips in all the samples we have studied of the dust produced by the destruction of the World Trade Center. Examination of four of these samples, collected from separate sites, is reported in this paper. These red/gray chips show marked similarities in all four samples. One sample was collected by a Manhattan resident about ten minutes after the collapse of the second WTC Tower, two the next day, and a fourth about a week later. The properties of these chips were analyzed using optical microscopy, scanning electron microscopy (SEM), X-ray energy dispersive spectroscopy (XEDS), and differential scanning calorimetry (DSC). The red material contains grains approximately 100 nm across which are largely iron oxide, while aluminum is contained in tiny plate-like structures. Separation of components using methyl ethyl ketone demonstrated that elemental aluminum is present. The iron oxide and aluminum are intimately mixed in the red material. When ignited in a DSC device the chips exhibit large but narrow exotherms occurring at approximately 430 °C, far below the normal ignition temperature for conventional thermite. Numerous iron-rich spheres are clearly observed in the residue following the ignition of these peculiar red/gray chips. The red portion of these chips is found to be an unreacted thermitic material and highly energetic.


The left needs to drop the "LOL YOU GUYS BLAME DA JEWS LULZ" horseshit.
Nobody said anything about jews,freemasons,illuminati or anything. Some of you
are acting like the Ultra-right when they here about Obama and immediately spouting
SOCIALIST! I mean there so many damn wholes in the offical story its ridiculous!

We do have some leftists behind us.

http://www.911truth.org/article.php?story=20041026093059633
Michael Parenti
Howard Zinn
and some minor ones,those are just two big names I pulled.

Michael Parenti wrote a great passage of the lefts fear of conspiracies.
From Dirty Truths by Michael Parenti
(1996, City Lights Books)
(Pages 172 - 191)

THE JFK ASSASSINATION II:
CONSPIRACY PHOBIA
ON THE LEFT
http://www.questionsquestions.net/documents2/conspiracyphobia.html

or you could watch his speech called
JFK assassination and the gangster nature of the state(Youtube/Google Video)

[Jimmie Higgins]

Maybe I missed it, but I would like to hear what you think this would accomplish - say that there was an investigation - say that someone from the government produced a "smoking gun" that once and for all proved that the governmnet planed or allowed 9/11. Then what?

I simply don't understand how this - if true - changes anything. Did the anti-imperialist opponents of WWI spend much time wondering about the circumstances of the assassination of that Archduke? No, they looked as the material circumstances that created a situation where competition among the capitalist powers led to a massive conflict. They agitated and explained to their co-workers and fellow union members how the war was not int their interest and it was worker killing worker for the profits of one set of bosses over another.

If 9/11 families want an investigation, fine - but I can't see how this should be the cause of radical leftists. How does this advance the class struggle?

My impression of the Loose Change thing is they feel if only there was some big lie they could uncover, suddenly all Americans would suddenly rise up and create some kind of change or overthrow the governmnet or something. If that is the case, it is wishful thinking - it is wishing for a short-cut to organizing and building a cooperative movement to take on capitalism.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Finally, the main reason the US ruling class doesn't engage in vast conspiracies and grand orchestrated events is BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE TO. The real reason that Bush was able to get away with everything is that we do not have an opposition in the US. The Democrats voted for the war, the Patriot act and convinced the population that the only "realistic" way to end the war was to vote in Democrats - well, the US population did, and guess what, the ruling class project is still going full-on.

These problems in the US are a little more complicated and their solutions are more long-term: building an independent working class movement that can force the governmnet to make concessions and ultimately create a society in their own interest. I suspect that many of the other people attracted to the truth movement are attracted to it because they see it as an easy fix: get the "truth" out and our rulers will have no choice but to end the war, or teach people the "truth" and they will suddenly rise up. Things don't work like that - there's no magic trick to revolution other than working class organization and democracy and solidarity.

[Qayin]

Maybe I missed it, but I would like to hear what you think this would accomplish - say that there was an investigation - say that someone from the government produced a "smoking gun" that once and for all proved that the governmnet planed or allowed 9/11. Then what?

Social Revolution. You know how much it would blow the liberals conservatives mind that theyve been helping the imperialists all along(Iraq,afganistan,tortue ect)? DO you honestly think the corporate media,the government,and corporations involved would get away with this if the people knew? If the Left took control of the 9-11 movement instead of rabbid asshats like Alex Jones, we could bring our solution instead of stupid fucking austrian school capitalism.



If 9/11 families want an investigation, fine - but I can't see how this should be the cause of radical leftists. How does this advance the class struggle?

Many elements of the Bougeoise from finance to industry would be involved and the State also. All would be discredited to the working class.



My impression of the Loose Change thing is they feel if only there was some big lie they could uncover, suddenly all Americans would suddenly rise up and create some kind of change or overthrow the governmnet or something. If that is the case, it is wishful thinking - it is wishing for a short-cut to organizing and building a cooperative movement to take on capitalism.

Its a start, but loose change as really nothing to do with this. Previous version of loose change have been complete crap until Final cut(American coup). Anyways before revolutions occur people must be conscious, this would be a big blow to them that there conditions all along have been in place to oppress them.

If people knew the Gulf of Tonkin never happened(Which they now admit) back in the 60s,do you think people would have reacted different?

[Qayin]

OMG, the JFK assassination too?
That wasnt the point, the point was the state does carry out conspiracies and the left are to fast to throw them out.



There are plenty of conspiracies - just not ones this big that can stay hidden. This is the same governmnet that tried to kill Castro by rigging a seashell with explosives because they thought that Castro liked to pick up seashells when he walked on the beach.
Manhattan project?
Operation Gladio?

Besides that, it slowly is being uncovered people found damn material that could have been used! I already posted a link to not a conspiracy website, but a scientific journal.



If the US governmnet could orchestrate events however it wanted, then why would they ever loose face - why would they let the war become unpopular enough that they have trouble getting troops!? Why would they botch coup attempts in Venezuela and Honduras? Why would they ever use proxy armies and half-measures if they could just manufacture any conflict they want.
Thats besides the evidence my friend! These possibilities could go on forever,the left should look at the evidence that has been produced!


When I look at history, I don't see a ruling class that's like an evil comicbook villain, I see a group of short-sighted, self-interested bumbling but powerful little pigs.
So why couldnt self-interested bumbling powerful little pigs POSSIBLY let this happen if not pull it off? These arguements could go on forever, we should be looking at the evidence and the lies of the commission and the state!

[Josef Balin]

This is a terrible thread.

As far as anyone is concerned (and they're right), communism is a conspiracy theory. Not to put any negative connotations with the word, but these are simply people disillusioned with the system who sought answers for the ills of current society and came to a conclusion based on FACTS. To the idiot who brought it up like religion (and yes I can call him an idiot because not only is it truthful but ridiculous that a COMMUNIST would attack a political fringe movement for being a political fringe movement), that is laughably ironic. If conspiracy theories are religions, then Marxism would easily qualify as a religion.

Did you honestly not realize the hypocrisy in typing that their religion is one lacking belief in God and noted in "conspiracy theories (facts*)"? That's EVERY mainstream opinion on communism ffs.

*Things such as the 9/11 Truth Movement are conspiracy theories which have lots of scientists on board and have arguments based solely on facts. I have no idea what happened and personally believe that anyone who hasn't dedicated their life to researching whatever field(s) are useful in the matter and has a strong opinion is pretty ignorant.

[Dimentio]

Why we should not under condition side with the 9/11 truth movement is because it is a side-track.

Of course, leftist organisations tend to go into other sidetracks. One such sidetrack is an extreme focus on anti-imperialist bourgeois guerilla movements. But that doesn't mean we should let 9/11 truthers in either.

[peaccenicked]

I think we should rally behind the 9/11 truther Cindy Sheehan. Those who cannot see the connection between 9/11 and the evil empires wars are simply blind or worse.

[Dimentio]

I think that post made no sense.

No matter if there is a connection or not, it is idiotic to associate with people perceived as loons. Moreover, it would drag attention away from important social issues and bring politics down on the same level as when Nero blamed the christians for burning Rome and the christians blamed Nero.

[peaccenicked]

percieved loons include Chavez Castro., charlie sheen, Willie Nelson.

The loony left have always been percieved as loons.
I am totally mad at the system that leaves million poor and destitute and less than 1%
super rich. I am proud to be a loon under such circumstances.
Get real!

[Stranger Than Paradise]

Conspiracy theories rise out of Capitalism and dilute the true cause of concern which is of course Capitalism itself. Conspiracy theories answer the concerns of those who do not understand why their society is the way it is and attribute the troubles in society to these theories. In this they help to further Capitalism's existence as those who believe them are blind to the true cause of these questions.

[STJ]

Is it just me, but isn't conspiracism more akin to a religion than a political ideology? And don't claim its marginal. It is very much an undercurrent of the general social debate between people outside of establishment control (1/3 of the Americans for example believe there was something yiffy 'bout 9/11).

Conspiracism is a rapidly growing movement today. Why?

And why is it so that the Illuminati/Masons/ZOG always are behind things like the French Revolution, anti-clerical policies, urbanisation, sexual liberation, women's and minorities rights according to the proponents of this theory? It doesn't strike me as particularily evil just...

(okay, I am a bit ironic, but I think we should discuss how to counter conspiracy nutteries)

You fool ZOG exists and i am a member of it.

[Luisrah]

I think there's a communication problem here.

What would matter if it was proven that it was an inside job?

It would help us in our class struggle!
One of Lenin's conditions for a revolution is a divided country or a country in crysis!

Revealing the truth of those many things would make people less trustworthy of their governments, and thus, most probably, more at ease to change and governative alternatives.

Imagine the possible world news if they found and published evidence that the USA payed some guys to put some bombs there and some others to crash a plane into the towers. And that all this was to create an excuse so that the USA could ''legitimately'' invade the Middle East.

Because one thing is invading it just for economic interests, and another is invading it because they were attacked first (at the eyes of the people)

If everyone in the world had proof that the USA didn't go to the moon at the first time (maybe that wouldn't change much) that they already had the cure to AIDS but didn't show it to the world to maintain profit in selling contraceptives, and that the 9/11 was an inside job to make an excuse to invade Iraq and maintain Imperialism, do you honestly think nothing would happen?

And if you do think that something would happen, do you honestly think it would be helpful to our cause?
Discontent and people betrayed by their own governments are people ready to listen to alternatives, and we can be that alternative.

[Qayin]

Conspiracy theories answer the concerns of those who do not understand why their society is the way it is and attribute the troubles in society to these theories

These little "logics" you make do not explain why wargames were going on that day eerily similar to the real thing, nor the damn explosive materials found within the WTC dust. What you are saying is you cannot be a marxist and believe 9-11 was an inside job because we dont understand society?
Makes no sense.

[brigadista]

new world order? thought it was the same old - old world order

[Stranger Than Paradise]

These little "logics" you make do not explain why wargames were going on that day eerily similar to the real thing, nor the damn explosive materials found within the WTC dust. What you are saying is you cannot be a marxist and believe 9-11 was an inside job because we dont understand society?
Makes no sense.

No I didn't say you couldn't be a Marxist and believe 9-11 was an inside job. I am merely commenting on where I think conspiracy theories arise from.

[peaccenicked]

No I didn't say you couldn't be a Marxist and believe 9-11 was an inside job. I am merely commenting on where I think conspiracy theories arise from..
yeah like What . I say go and fuck yourself! Who am I ?

[Angry Young Man]

1/3 of the Americans for example believe there was something yiffy 'bout 9/11

There was something very iffy about 9/11. But not being a conspiracy nut, I don't dwell upon it.

[peaccenicked]

There was something very iffy about 9/11. But not being a conspiracy nut, I don't dwell upon it.
__________________

Is there something completely ignorant about your attitude.? Tell me why,for example,
you believe that it is lunatic to dwell on injustices? maybe you should apply for membership of the Republican party. Or move your mental age a little above that of a six year old.

[peaccenicked]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DhMcii8smxk

[Stranger Than Paradise]

.
yeah like What . I say go and fuck yourself! Who am I ?

What are you talking about. Honestly I don't think it is productive in the slightest to subscribe to consipiracy theories. How are they at all linked to the class struggle?

[Jazzratt]

.
yeah like What . I say go and fuck yourself! Who am I ?

A loony.

[hefty_lefty]

Stranger seems to have said it the best, some conspiracy theories are gladly propogated by governing bodies because they tend to distract the populace from real issues.
Coupled with the media's focus on bad-news, and fear building headlines the people have their plates full.

Life is busy, and it is no coincidence...those in charge have set it up that way so that we do not have time to sift for the truth.
Sh*t, is that a conspiracy theory?

[Jimmie Higgins]

If the pro-conspiracy theory radicals here are already convinced that capitalism and the US government are bad, why do you think that other workers can not also come to that conclusion without the revelation of some huge government conspiracy?

Personally I think there is plenty of evidence to condemn capitalism, the wars, and the US government without speculating about things that can not be proven.

If you need to believe that 9/11 was done by the US to be anti-war, then you don't have an anti-imperialist understanding.

If you need to need to believe that the government is making menthol cigarettes with special chemicals to kill black people, then you don't have a good grasp of the history of racism in the US and the way the system using racism every day.

We don't need to argue that the government is hiding secret AIDS drugs because I can talk for an hour explaining what the US government has done to AIDS patients and LGBT people; I can also say with 100% confidence and facts how the US is killing people everyday by not giving people health-care or treatment for preventable sickness.

If comrades want to speculate on dark conspiracies that can't be proven, you are just wasting your time... what conspiratorial horrors could be worse that the Holocaust or droping the atom bomb on Japan or jim-crow, or the current prison system in the US or China... what more proof do you need?

Organize and agitate, don't speculate!

... you can put that last bit on a bumper sticker.

[RedSpartacus]

I have not posted on these forums for a long time but I have got to say that I found myself compelled to respond to some of the posts in this topic.

First of all, I find it utterly astounding that in general the left has been quite smug and generally half-hearted in its dismissal of the 911 “conspiracy theory” without even spending much time deliberating the evidence at hand nor lending credence to the dozens of testimonies of firemen, policemen, air traffic controllers and eye-witnesses present on that day. Secondly, it is a bit surreal that these same leftists who advocate the overthrowing of a tyrannical and a corrupt government would be the first to embrace the official version of events as described by that government for fear of being lumped with the loonies out there inhabiting fantasyverse; for me, that is akin to saying that if I was Galileo back in the 17th century I wouldn’t dare to go against the establishment and popular opinion which dictates that the universe revolves around the Earth for fear of being pronounced a heretic or a fool.

Furthermore, so many professionals (military personnel, structural engineers, architects, scientists, firemen…etc) have come forth and proclaimed that the official version of events is frankly speaking a lot of hogwash. To dismiss their evidence and testimony out of hand because they are not fellow leftists or because their opinions have not been given much air-time on major public networks is to succumb to the pitfalls of blind ignorance, the very which we are trying to counteract.

Let me clarify that I am first and foremost for socialism because I am for humanity as Eugene Debs once proclaimed and NOT because I idolize Marx, Lenin or Engels nor do I take any of their words or works as gospel. So to me, the other argument that 911 is irrelevant because it’s outside the scope of Marxism or such is not only abhorrent but also strikes me of blind fanaticism the sort of which we accuse those terrorist hijackers of indulging in.

To use an analogy here if I may, let’s say I (us socialists) work at a factory where unlike the majority of my colleagues (the public) I am privy to the fact that our CEO (government) is a conniving, tyrannical, murderous charlatan who has been maintaining a capitalist hierarchy that only enriches him and a handful of shareholders whilst perpetually enslaving us and keeping us in check. You know that things could be and ought be better and that with the implementation of a sound social structure everyone in your company will be better off, but the skepticism of your colleagues (flamed by the CEOs negative propaganda) coupled with their apathy and ignorance (they all believe that the CEO is a well-meaning but slightly misguided soul) only exacerbate the situation and make your goal untenable. Now suppose that one day you turn up to work and discover that a manager was found murdered and the story furnished by your CEO to explain the event makes very little sense, and you have very strong evidence to suggest that he is either covering up for the real culprit or that he himself may be involved in the act. Would you just blithely ignore the evidence at hand that would vindicate you, expose the ruthlessness of your CEO and help you garner the support to overthrow him because it is not strictly relevant to your proposed socialist structure for the company? Or, would you cease the opportunity to expose him, get rid of that evil once and for all and fulfill your moral obligation towards the victim’s family? If you went for the former rather than the latter option then I have to say (without trying to offend anyone over here) that it is a very obtuse and parochial way of thinking; moreover it displays complete disregard for the objective truth in favour of personal ideology.

One of the definitions of a conspiracy theory is a hypothesis alleging that the members of a coordinated group are, and/or were, secretly working together to commit illegal or wrongful actions. The history of the world is riddled with conspiracies since time immemorial, spanning from ancient China to modern America (2 examples of which are the Gulf of Tonkin Incident which launched the Vietnam intervention and Pearl Harbor). However, nowadays it has become a term of denigration to abuse iconoclasts who don’t subscribe to the official version of events as dictated by the ruling class and proliferated by mass media outlets. Us leftists have always been the subject of ridicule for being conspiracy theorists just because we view history from a different perspective, so I find it quite ironic that we are now painting these conspiracy ‘nuts’ with the same brush. One final note, not all conspiracies are created equal, I think there is a slight discernible difference between those who claim that the laws of physics and reality do not quite match up to a particular fairytale and those who claim to be abducted in the middle of the night to be anally probed by little green men.

- All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident ~ ARTHUR SHOPENHAUER

[Luisrah]

If the pro-conspiracy theory radicals here are already convinced that capitalism and the US government are bad, why do you think that other workers can not also come to that conclusion without the revelation of some huge government conspiracy?

Personally I think there is plenty of evidence to condemn capitalism, the wars, and the US government without speculating about things that can not be proven.

If you need to believe that 9/11 was done by the US to be anti-war, then you don't have an anti-imperialist understanding.

If you need to need to believe that the government is making menthol cigarettes with special chemicals to kill black people, then you don't have a good grasp of the history of racism in the US and the way the system using racism every day.

We don't need to argue that the government is hiding secret AIDS drugs because I can talk for an hour explaining what the US government has done to AIDS patients and LGBT people; I can also say with 100% confidence and facts how the US is killing people everyday by not giving people health-care or treatment for preventable sickness.

If comrades want to speculate on dark conspiracies that can't be proven, you are just wasting your time... what conspiratorial horrors could be worse that the Holocaust or droping the atom bomb on Japan or jim-crow, or the current prison system in the US or China... what more proof do you need?

Organize and agitate, don't speculate!

... you can put that last bit on a bumper sticker.

We're not saying that we need the conspiracies to show Americans how bad their country is.

But the ''normal'' person believes that those things were true, and while they do know about the holocaust, the atomic bombs, they don't really care and that doesn't influence them much.

But when they hear that their country did stuff like that, it actually has impact on them. they'll say ''Hey, my country, which is supposedly the best of all, makes horrible things. I'm starting to distrust it. By the way, what alternative do you suggest?''

In the battle against capitalist propaganda, we must have our weapons too, and when all else fails, a conspiracy may turn the tide of the talk.

It's as I've been saying. A condition necessary for a revolution is usually a crysis, or internal problems in a country etc... If a conspiracy is proven to be true, it can shock and divide the people, and that's where we come in.

[Dimentio]

The problem with conspiracy theories - on the contrary - is that they deactivate people, makes them passive.

If the entire world is under the control of the Illuminati, how could we be sure Illuminate doesn't create its own opposition groups to control the people anyway? The only thing they fester is speculation, not any true revolutionary spirit. By painting the system as strong and invisible, they scare people. People would only rise if the rulers are seen as both cruel and weak at the same time.

[Luisrah]

The problem with conspiracy theories - on the contrary - is that they deactivate people, makes them passive.



You are right.

But what if they are proven quickly and are used as a weapon to attack the current system?

It's one more thing for the list when someone makes a speech.

''Your government can't give you good living conditions, it does this, bla bla bla, and it even tricks you into believing they are doing it right. It survives as ruler only through deciet, only trying to fool you (the people)...''
And so on.

It may deactivate people, but what if there was a disease created by governments to kill people to reduce population and someone managed to prove it?
Would the people really be passive?
Possibly yes, possibly not.
Would they be passive if we get in the middle and say something?
Possibly yes, probably not.

[Angry Young Man]

_____________

Is there something completely ignorant about your attitude.? Tell me why,for example,
you believe that it is lunatic to dwell on injustices? maybe you should apply for membership of the Republican party. Or move your mental age a little above that of a six year old.

I mean I don't go all 'it's a conspiraceh!' I only said we won't find the truth until somebody finds it, and I admit that I am not said somebody. Because of this, I won't dive carelessly into a philosophical mire beyond myself. Have you been doing any investigations?

[Qayin]

Its funny all this side talk when I posted a scientific journal of explosive material found within the WTC dust.

No illuminati or jew talk.
Whats important is who put the material there and why?
Whats why there needs to be a new investigation,now we can prove
bombs or incendiaries were in WTC 1/2/7.

Fingers point to the obvious when who the hell had access and the means to
put the stuff within those buildings.

This alone would create conditions necessary for a revolution.
The right wings brains would boil instantly that everything that they
have been for regarding the war on terror has been a complete lie.

That of course is wishful thinking.

[Jimmie Higgins]

I'm sorry, but you guys are looking for a short-cut to revolution. If the 9/11 conspiracy stuff turned out to be true and was suddenly announced, it would just as likely (actually a lot more likely) mobilize US militias and nazis as it would create a left-wing or anti-war movement.

If we want a movement by the working class in its own interests, our job as radicals is to show people what kind of politics and tactics are necessary to win a new world based on democracy in all areas of life.

The reason I'm not interested in the latest "scientific" evidence is that generally these things are not scientific at all: they start with the premise that the thing was rigged and then try and prove it.

[Stranger Than Paradise]

You are right.

But what if they are proven quickly and are used as a weapon to attack the current system?

It's one more thing for the list when someone makes a speech.

''Your government can't give you good living conditions, it does this, bla bla bla, and it even tricks you into believing they are doing it right. It survives as ruler only through deciet, only trying to fool you (the people)...''
And so on.

It may deactivate people, but what if there was a disease created by governments to kill people to reduce population and someone managed to prove it?
Would the people really be passive?
Possibly yes, possibly not.
Would they be passive if we get in the middle and say something?
Possibly yes, probably not.

But they aren't used to attack the system, they help further the system. Conspiracy theories carry no substance, that is their point; to imagine something sensational. I don't want to lie and indoctrinate my class into believing falsehoods, I want them to know the truth.

[Tatarin]

Secondly, it is a bit surreal that these same leftists who advocate the overthrowing of a tyrannical and a corrupt government would be the first to embrace the official version of events as described by that government ...

That's pretty vague. There are many well-off scientists who support the government and their policies - should we ignore their scientific findings as lies? Just because a government can lie doesn't mean it does lie in every instance.


... for me, that is akin to saying that if I was Galileo back in the 17th century I wouldn’t dare to go against the establishment and popular opinion which dictates that the universe revolves around the Earth for fear of being pronounced a heretic or a fool.

That's different. 9/11ers can put out anything they want without being prosecuted for anything (well, as long as they don't punch someone or something in the face). Galileo's proof was feared, but the 9/11ers have no proof. If they did, scientists all over the world would rise up in anger of the coverup, since the evidence is open for anyone to study.


Furthermore, so many professionals (military personnel, structural engineers, architects, scientists, firemen…etc) have come forth and proclaimed that the official version of events is frankly speaking a lot of hogwash.

According to who? What did they really say? Is it what they think happened, or have they got some proof we haven't seen yet? I just saw a ghost walk through my toilet. Many people have come forth and said they've seen ghosts. Can we ignore those statements?


To dismiss their evidence and testimony out of hand because they are not fellow leftists or because their opinions have not been given much air-time on major public networks is to succumb to the pitfalls of blind ignorance, the very which we are trying to counteract.

What evidence? The ones phony "scientists" have written about in commercial books? The 9/11ers have become a cult just because of that - if you don't believe in our theory of a conspiracy, then you are ignorant, narrow, not a leftist, you support the government, and everything. There seems to be no debate at all.


Or, would you cease the opportunity to expose him, get rid of that evil once and for all and fulfill your moral obligation towards the victim’s family?

You write as if your case is completed with evidence that 9/11 was an inside job. Then what are you doing here? Submit the evidence to people who can make it into a case against the government.


If you went for the former rather than the latter option then I have to say (without trying to offend anyone over here) that it is a very obtuse and parochial way of thinking; moreover it displays complete disregard for the objective truth in favour of personal ideology.

As is very often the case of every conspiracy theorist.


The history of the world is riddled with conspiracies since time immemorial, spanning from ancient China to modern America (2 examples of which are the Gulf of Tonkin Incident which launched the Vietnam intervention and Pearl Harbor).

Thus, everything that is complex and suspicious must be a conspiracy theory. There is a "dark matter" in the universe, and more mysteriously, a "dark energy". Astronomers aren't sure what it is. So it must be proof of ghosts.


Us leftists have always been the subject of ridicule for being conspiracy theorists just because we view history from a different perspective, so I find it quite ironic that we are now painting these conspiracy ‘nuts’ with the same brush.

No, we have been branded as "extremists" and "radicals" most time, being "far out on the left" and in league with the devil (who also is a communist). And it's not because we have a view, and the ruling classes have another. They are very aware of our views. One could say that they are as Marxist as one can be theoretically. A view can be debated and voted on, tried and reflected upon. A system can not.


One final note, not all conspiracies are created equal, I think there is a slight discernible difference between those who claim that the laws of physics and reality do not quite match up to a particular fairytale and those who claim to be abducted in the middle of the night to be anally probed by little green men.

Why not? You say that the left must be open to these kinds of theories, why can't aliens be true also? Because that would be narrow and dogmatic, no?


But when they hear that their country did stuff like that, it actually has impact on them. they'll say ''Hey, my country, which is supposedly the best of all, makes horrible things. I'm starting to distrust it. By the way, what alternative do you suggest?''

But what would make a "normal person" suspect his or her country? The thinking goes against the government, and that it was the government that made all this. The country, on the other hand, is just a country. Good country, bad government. That is what has to be changed.


I'm sorry, but you guys are looking for a short-cut to revolution. If the 9/11 conspiracy stuff turned out to be true and was suddenly announced, it would just as likely (actually a lot more likely) mobilize US militias and nazis as it would create a left-wing or anti-war movement.

Maybe it would - but if it were true then there is the next step: that that government was bad, not this one. Or that the perpetrators were only a corrupt group. Unless a majority of the ruling class were involved - so that it would be a pure "rich vs. the people" situation - there is always the blame on small groups, organizations, and such that could take the fall. People must really see the system oppressing them, like the Russian tsar just before 1917. Ironically, it is in those situations most revolutions arise from.


The reason I'm not interested in the latest "scientific" evidence is that generally these things are not scientific at all: they start with the premise that the thing was rigged and then try and prove it.

You are completely right. Not to mention the zealous attacks those who question the "9/11 theory" receive just by, well, questioning it.

They come to forums to call people ignorant and dumb and narrow, instead of organizing and send the "proof" to people who can actually do something with it.

[Anaximander]

I have always been sort of half-and-half on the "inside-job" scenario.

It seems to me likely that upon receiving indication of a potential and highly likely attack upon the U.S., Bush and the cabinet allowed it to happen, so that they would have a pretext for war. I'm not claiming I know for sure, because I think it is a moot point at this juncture. That Bush knew and did nothing, however, sort of implicates him and his staff in one way or another.

Or we could throw it back on the Reagan administration. Islamic extremism resulted from American policies, so basically it comes down to our own governments dirty deeds, no conspiracy needed. Facts are facts, and the tyranny of a business monopolized state and it's institutions is fairly fucking obvious.

[RedSpartacus]

That's pretty vague. There are many well-off scientists who support the government and their policies - should we ignore their scientific findings as lies? Just because a government can lie doesn't mean it does lie in every instance .


What scientific findings? Like aircraft vaporizing on impact and not being able to track down any serialized components belonging to those aircraft 8 years after the crash? (which is a first in aviation history since all commercial aircraft have hundreds of serialized components that are unique to each individual aircraft). To quote Colonel George Nelson (Rt. USAF),

In all my years of direct and indirect participation, I never witnessed nor even heard of an aircraft loss, where the wreckage was accessible, that prevented investigators from finding enough hard evidence to positively identify the make, model, and specific registration number of the aircraft -- and in most cases the precise cause of the accident.

Or perhaps that building 7 which collapsed at near freefall speed because of a few fires? (this one cannot be explicated by that kerosene fuel melted the steel frames hogwash which was used to explain the collapse of the twin towers - another first in construction history). Or perhaps you’re referring to that near pristine hijacker passport that they uncovered from the rubble the day after 9/11 which they so fortuitously found amongst the million Ts of rubble and debris in ground zero.
I am an aerospace engineer, with a BEng and an MSc degrees, I have worked for the Royal Air Force and I have worked in the design and maintenance of aircraft for 10 years. Engine and Landing gear steel and titanium parts don’t just vaporize on impact as the 911 commission report states to the extent that it renders the identification of a particular aircraft impossible. If that’s the case, I should perhaps go back to university and ask them for a full refund right after I wipe my arse with that degree.


That's different. 9/11ers can put out anything they want without being prosecuted for anything (well, as long as they don't punch someone or something in the face). Galileo's proof was feared, but the 9/11ers have no proof. If they did, scientists all over the world would rise up in anger of the coverup, since the evidence is open for anyone to study.

….and you don’t think that the government doesn’t fear a re-opening of the 9/11 commission and conducting independent investigations? And honestly! You don’t think that by coming forth and providing their expertise which stands against the government’s storyline (which so many have admirably have) they won’t risk their job security and be the victims of smear campaigns?? Who’s naïve now? There are plenty of websites out there that detail the gaping with the official government lies. You can research it quite conveniently from the comfort of your own armchair. It seems to me that you’re expecting these scientists, military personnel…etc, to be given air time in private networks such as FOX NEWS to enunciate their professional opinions. Maybe they can appear on a segment on Fox News, right after Bill O’Reilly hosts the Communist Party of America for an introductory debate?

Lt. Col. Robert Bowman, PhD: "A lot of these pieces of information, taken together, prove that the official story, the official conspiracy theory of 9/11 is a bunch of hogwash. It's impossible!" said Lt. Col. Robert Bowman, PhD, US Air Force (ret) With doctoral degrees in Aeronautics and Nuclear Engineering, Col. Bowman served as Director of Advanced Space Programs Development under Presidents Gerald Ford and Jimmy Carter

For crying out loud, even if ex-government drones can speak out against it and voice their concerns (and there are many of them. One of the websites is patriotsquestion911). Why are you so many sticking to the juvenile, “if the government say it’s true, then the onus is on you to prove them wrong!” I am sorry, but the onus is on the government to prove that the fallacy they sold us is true. Or at the very least rationally explain many of the gaping holes in their storyline
It seems to me those who are most vociferous about the loony conspiracy theorists are the ones who know least about them. Do your own homework! Because I don’t think any anti-government opinions will be airing on Fox News, CNN or NBC any time soon, so don’t hold your breaths.




According to who? What did they really say? Is it what they think happened, or have they got some proof we haven't seen yet? I just saw a ghost walk through my toilet. Many people have come forth and said they've seen ghosts. Can we ignore those statements? .



Again, there are many websites out there you could check such as patriotsquestion911


What evidence? The ones phony "scientists" have written about in commercial books? The 9/11ers have become a cult just because of that - if you don't believe in our theory of a conspiracy, then you are ignorant, narrow, not a leftist, you support the government, and everything. There seems to be no debate at all.

Nobody is asking you to join any cult because it’s cool or hip to be anti-government. Do your own reading! That’s how you became a leftist wasn’t it?
Study, rationalize and analyse and the numerous anomalies found in the official storyline (many of which have been omitted for the 9/11 commission report); explain the government’s refusal to allow air accident investigators into the Pentagon & Shanksville crash sites (FAA jurisdiction) or why they failed to intercept even one of the 4 hijacked aircraft within an hour and a half when standard practices dictate that they would be able to intercept any hijacked planes within the US in a matter of minutes and then draw your own conclusions, that’s all! And if you aren't at the very least slightly dubious after having done your own extensive research, then fair enough, at least you would have approached it in a logical and objective way.




As is very often the case of every conspiracy theorist..



I beg to differ, I think you are quite happy to just sit there and accept what you read in papers and watch on TV without any critical analysis and due concern for the truth. I haven’t always been on the 911 bandwagon; just like you I have initially dismissed them as conspiracy nuts and didn’t bother with their arguments until I decided to just do a bit more research to shut them up once and for all, but the more answers I tried to find the more questions popped up.
And I hate to disappoint you, but I am not one of those sad loner stereotypical conspiracy theorist types (ala X-files’ Lone Gunmen). I have a good (civilian) job, a beautiful girlfriend, great friends and a great social life. I don’t waste my days nor take delight in trying to uncover the JFK assassination conspiracy or attempting to track down the Illuminati.



Thus, everything that is complex and suspicious must be a conspiracy theory. There is a "dark matter" in the universe, and more mysteriously, a "dark energy". Astronomers aren't sure what it is. So it must be proof of ghosts. ..



Actually, dark matter is just a theory scientists to try to explain the missing mass of the universe. They have no proof of its existence. A recent article in NewScientist sheds a different light on the subject in a recent article



Why not? You say that the left must be open to these kinds of theories, why can't aliens be true also? Because that would be narrow and dogmatic, no?



Rational theories, yes! Theories about little green men who travelled thousands of light years to poke my arse based on anecdotal encounters, no thank you!
Which is not to say that I do dispute the existence of intelligent alien life in this vast universe! I am unashamedly a space geek and that’s why I studied Astronautics and Space Engineering for my Masters. However, I cannot prove nor disprove the existence of aliens; therefore I will keep my reservations until I stumble upon a blueprint of an alien spacecraft written in klingon language, and furnished with a scale map to their planet.

[peaccenicked]

A loony.


Yeah. right.

*Conspiracy Theorist = loon *

Thank god! Such logic is prevalent on the Western left.

9/11 goes to the heart of the war in Afghanistan.

Those who call it "Loon" are like school kids who taunt.

There is no grown up debate because the Chomsky factor.

Tell it Castro and Chavez.

And they will see that you are what we call in Glasgow a "big wean"

[Tatarin]

What scientific findings? Like aircraft vaporizing on impact and not being able to track down any serialized components belonging to those aircraft 8 years after the crash? (which is a first in aviation history since all commercial aircraft have hundreds of serialized components that are unique to each individual aircraft). To quote Colonel George Nelson (Rt. USAF),


In all my years of direct and indirect participation, I never witnessed nor even heard of an aircraft loss, where the wreckage was accessible, that prevented investigators from finding enough hard evidence to positively identify the make, model, and specific registration number of the aircraft -- and in most cases the precise cause of the accident.

No wreckage, huh?

http://911myths.com/html/757_wreckage.html

"They" just ran out and placed a lot of "something" all around Pentagon in the middle of the city?

Besides, the George Nelson quote doesn't say anything. That's another irrelevant statement that is brought up because he is supposed to be a "professional". He is giving his opinion about it. I'm guessing he hasn't seen many planes running into fortified buildings during his life.


Or perhaps that building 7 which collapsed at near freefall speed because of a few fires?

A "few fires"? Everyone says building 7 was so lightly damaged. Doesn't look that way to me; http://www.debunking911.com/pull.htm .

Free falling gets a new meaning within conspiracies, it seems; http://www.debunking911.com/freefall.htm


Or perhaps you’re referring to that near pristine hijacker passport that they uncovered from the rubble the day after 9/11 which they so fortuitously found amongst the million Ts of rubble and debris in ground zero.

Just as many other things survived the explosions; http://www.911myths.com/html/passport_recovered.html


….and you don’t think that the government doesn’t fear a re-opening of the 9/11 commission and conducting independent investigations?

I think that they think it's a big waste of money, all in order to please the public view.


You don’t think that by coming forth and providing their expertise which stands against the government’s storyline (which so many have admirably have) they won’t risk their job security and be the victims of smear campaigns??

It's up to them if they want to come out of the clauset. While they get ridiculed by the mainstream, you can not forget that there are probably millions of conspiracy-readers who will buy any book they write.

Besides, why "come out"? If they have material evidence, why not submit it to scientists and peers?


It seems to me that you’re expecting these scientists, military personnel…etc, to be given air time in private networks such as FOX NEWS to enunciate their professional opinions.

That's what I don't expect them to do. That's attention seeking. Instead, they should submit what evidence they think they have to other scientific peers, just as any theory is done with once developed.

http://www.debunking911.com/paper.htm


Lt. Col. Robert Bowman, PhD: "A lot of these pieces of information, taken together, prove that the official story, the official conspiracy theory of 9/11 is a bunch of hogwash. It's impossible!" said Lt. Col. Robert Bowman, PhD, US Air Force (ret) With doctoral degrees in Aeronautics and Nuclear Engineering, Col. Bowman served as Director of Advanced Space Programs Development under Presidents Gerald Ford and Jimmy Carter.

So if the same person says that Communism is completely impossible, that would make it so? I don't care if you're Albert Einstein, it won't make any difference if you don't have proof of your claims. Besides, what is needed is not aeronautics or nuclear engineering, what is needed is an architect.


For crying out loud, even if ex-government drones can speak out against it and voice their concerns (and there are many of them. One of the websites is patriotsquestion911).

Good for them! What does that do to anything?


Why are you so many sticking to the juvenile, “if the government say it’s true, then the onus is on you to prove them wrong!”

The government didn't just "say it's true". The government isn't one big entity in where all persons are linked to some super mind. There were hundreds if not thousands of people involved in the investigations, individuals with their own thinking and politics, and not only from the government.

Besides, the onus is on your side. Just as with any theory about conspiracies, or aliens, or whatever.


I am sorry, but the onus is on the government to prove that the fallacy they sold us is true. Or at the very least rationally explain many of the gaping holes in their storyline.

Again, if you believe there is proof enough to crush the government, then don't come here and complain you don't have enough followers. There are peers all over the world, and the "evidence" has been open for them to look at and investigate. Journalists, the one group that would be crazy about any evidence there are of a conspiracy, are pretty quiet too.


It seems to me those who are most vociferous about the loony conspiracy theorists are the ones who know least about them. Do your own homework! Because I don’t think any anti-government opinions will be airing on Fox News, CNN or NBC any time soon, so don’t hold your breaths.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NWFqVVRqSY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbNszu6zbe4&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrcFA9j6bkU&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=reQZT9Hzvt8&feature=related

You won't see any communists get that kind of time on TV.


I beg to differ, I think you are quite happy to just sit there and accept what you read in papers and watch on TV without any critical analysis and due concern for the truth.

On the contrary, I think most things I see on TV are pretty rediculous or omitted of the original problem. It's not that I haven't been on conspiracy sites or talked with people who believe in all kinds of stuff. I have. But I haven't seen any proof of a conspiracy. What would seem like genuine faults would later turn out to be omissions or outright lies of the 9/11ers themselves. Why then would I believe in anything they have to say?


I haven’t always been on the 911 bandwagon; just like you I have initially dismissed them as conspiracy nuts and didn’t bother with their arguments until I decided to just do a bit more research to shut them up once and for all, but the more answers I tried to find the more questions popped up.

Actually, that is not "just like me". Initially, I was pretty positive towards the thought of a conspiracy. It was later on when people, who questioned the conspiracy theory, got banned from the Loose Change forum - which is supposedly there to light up the truth. In many other areas, people got spitted at just for wanting the proof, or not understanding how the theorists made this or that connection. It all came down to believing in them or being allied to the government.


And I hate to disappoint you, but I am not one of those sad loner stereotypical conspiracy theorist types (ala X-files’ Lone Gunmen). I have a good (civilian) job, a beautiful girlfriend, great friends and a great social life. I don’t waste my days nor take delight in trying to uncover the JFK assassination conspiracy or attempting to track down the Illuminati.

Good for you.


Actually, dark matter is just a theory scientists to try to explain the missing mass of the universe. They have no proof of its existence. A recent article in NewScientist sheds a different light on the subject in a recent article.

The point is that it is a mystery on a universal scale, but that it doesn't mean that whatever the missing parts are is proof of the supernatural. Just as something no one thought could happen, such as 9/11, is a complex event of many factors.


Rational theories, yes! Theories about little green men who travelled thousands of light years to poke my arse based on anecdotal encounters, no thank you!

Who says it's irrational? There probably is life on other planets, and many things are possible, things that would seem like magic to us today is everyday activity to the aliens. And who is to say they haven't been here? Or are here now? What, you can't say you trust the government on this one, can you? Their Project Blue Book is inconclusive!


However, I cannot prove nor disprove the existence of aliens; therefore I will keep my reservations until I stumble upon a blueprint of an alien spacecraft written in klingon language, and furnished with a scale map to their planet.

But the government has that proof! In Are 51! Besides, what about the inconsistencies of the Roswell crash?

They are here! Aaah!

[Sam_b]

Ah, but of course! I forgot that we on the left had to support 9/11 nutjob theories and the Youtube video "where was the wreckage" brigade because good ol' Fidel and Hugo support them. Come on now, you're turning into a caricature.

Is it just me that notices all these posts have a re-occouring pattern? First a couple of links to biased 911truth.com et al websites, quotes from someone who used to work in a particular organisation, half a dozen Youtube videos...Sorry but I cannot and will not take this blatant deviation from class struggle seriously. It almost cries out that the posters in question have spent more time on these than actual leftist theory, something I find utterly bizarre.

But hey, good luck to you. Who knows: the ruling class probably want you to be fixated on this nonsense while they expand their imperialist aggression in the time and present.

Can't assassinate man on a tiny island off Florida, yet can orchestrate the biggest cover-up in history with no witnesses? Yikes.

[Dimentio]

*looks around*

Castro is a CIA agent for Illuminati. That is why they failed. The assassinations were cover-ups to hide the fake Moon landing.

:lol:

[noway]

the U.S.'s World Order ???

[noway]

castro wears adidas, he aint no communist

[Qayin]

Such ignorance.

I posted a paper to s scientific journal,that doesnt mention the word conspiracy once!
It merely states that residue was found within the dust.

Who put that stuff in the trade centers?



Castro is a CIA agent for Illuminati. That is why they failed. The assassinations were cover-ups to hide the fake Moon landing.

Every single person on here has denounced the illuminati and moon landing shit that argues that 9-11 was an inside job,yet some of you seem to immature to drop it.

[hell march]

It's all about insecurity and the love of mindless violence and machismo. This is more real than middle class intellectuals would LIKE to believe in the real world. Guys that are right wing nutcases like to clobber people over the head after getting into drunken brawls over something stupid like a sports bet or a mindless attractive airhead. Why do you think Chuck Norris is so attractive to women being the right wing ass kicker that he is? Most women will get all moist over some guy that can concuss you with a flying kick to the head.

The lower end of the working class isn't into all that fancy think'in ya know.

Oh, and one more thing with the utopian thinkers out there that women actually have pride in themselves and who like to be equal partners rather than hide behind some violent idiot who can beat their ass and their rape their kids take the example of China where after the one child policy is introduced guess what? They wanted boys instead of girls. The village celebrates when a guy is born, but moans and whines when a girl is born. They might even abort her, kill her or give her away to a brothel or orphanage (what's the difference?). Nice mom who can stand up for herself and her own gender by the way. NOT!

[9]

It's all about insecurity and the love of mindless violence and machismo. This is more real than middle class intellectuals would LIKE to believe in the real world. Guys that are right wing nutcases like to clobber people over the head after getting into drunken brawls over something stupid like a sports bet or a mindless attractive airhead. Why do you think Chuck Norris is so attractive to women being the right wing ass kicker that he is? Most women will get all moist over some guy that can concuss you with a flying kick to the head.

The lower end of the working class isn't into all that fancy think'in ya know.

Oh, and one more thing with the utopian thinkers out there that women actually have pride in themselves and who like to be equal partners rather than hide behind some violent idiot who can beat their ass and their rape their kids take the example of China where after the one child policy is introduced guess what? They wanted boys instead of girls. The village celebrates when a guy is born, but moans and whines when a girl is born. They might even abort her, kill her or give her away to a brothel or orphanage (what's the difference?). Nice mom who can stand up for herself and her own gender by the way. NOT!

Maybe you should quit huffing ether for a few days; you're not making any sense.

[Yazman]

There really are many different tendencies and streams of thought in the "conspiracist" world. Its not good enough to just talk about them as if thye all believe the same thing and lump them in together as anti-semites, masons, etc. because there really are different tendencies. I find there are those with a more scientific mindset who are willing to consider different ideas and hypotheses, there are those who are highly religious and/or spiritual (new age types, christians also, for examples), etc. The ones who talk about the "ZOG" and jewish conspiracies tend to be more isolated to the fringe, or exclusively within white nationalist movements rather than in the conspiracist communities proper. A lot of conspiracist communities flatout ban racist and hate speech and anything that even resembles it, such as the abovetopsecret.com policy goes.

Different people have different ideas and concerns. Some of them are more concerned with the media and their malpractice, some of them are concerned with their people being wronged, some of their are concerned about their government, or economic issues. I find that occasionally they do actually manage to bring things to light that otherwise wouldn't have been brought to light, such as Operation Northwoods, or the Tuskegee experiment, or MKULTRA. Many of these things which were in their time were considered to be laughable "conspiracies" but turned out to be quite true - I think a certain amount of this is healthy.

But depending on the tendency, they range from reactionary and very, very wrong to simply misguided.

Some of them have the basic idea right in that they perceive there to be a rich ruling/upper class that is somewhat consistent or cohesive and is an extremely oppressive force - where these people go wrong, however, is that they describe this ruling class as a monolithic (yet bearing its own internal conflicts) elite seeking to create a "new world order."

The conclusions these people make seem to be wrong, even if their basic idea of a ruling class consisting of rich corporate elites is actually true. This is just one of the groups in particular though, and there are many different groups within the conspiracist world.

[Dimentio]

Yes, but what they have in common is that the ruling class has a giant world-wide conspiracy to create a New World Order.

[Yazman]

No shit, sherlock.

The thing is that a lot of these people can be brought over into our fold quite easily as many of them already have the same basic idea of a (sometimes conflicted) elite ruling class that controls the world.

I myself have managed to convince a fair few of them. Particularly lately with many of them becoming interested in technocracy its especially easy to give them a lead onto marxist/anarchist themes.

[9]

In my opinion, it is not enough to say that "well, these people believe in a corrupt elite that calls the shots, so they're not that far from communism". Aside from the fact that I consider such thinking very far from communism, I frankly consider it quite dangerous. This is exactly the thinking of most anti-Semites, but hopefully no one here advocates reaching out to Nazis. As I said in my original response to the OP, it is absolutely important for leftists to persuade kids and politically misguided people who have adopted some of these ideas in a non-fanatical sense. But as far as the fanatical conspiracy theorists are concerned... those who believe in ZOGs and an all-powerful Jewish Lobby (like the individual who is thanking Yazman's posts) or the Illuminati... I don't consider them worthy of a single iota of respect; they are reactionaries to the core who I don't believe to be particularly better than racists or fascists, if at all.

[RadioRaheem84]

I think that all of the right wing conspiracies are just a way for people to vent their frustration at how they've been cut out of the political process. That and they just don't want to admit that the system they cherish is deeply corrupt. They can't fathom that the people in Washington are just individuals involving themselves in a corrupt system of governance. They have to conjure up 'connected' conspiracies of politicians involved in secret meetings to undermine the sovereignty of the country.

Do they not know that that is just business as usual in DC, especially since 1980? Why does it have to be a shady conspiracy wrapped up in some hair brained scheme by some elite to bring about a new world order? Are they that afraid to admit that the system that holds up this country is just inherently corrupt?