German general elections...

[Kwisatz Haderach]

...are currently ongoing. Die Linke is expected to make gains, even though Angela Merkel is guaranteed to remain chancellor.

We should know more in about 24 hours. Post commentary here.

[Revy]

Die Linke's faults notwithstanding, I hope they make great gains, getting more seats than those Free Democrats at least.

[BobKKKindle$]

13% for Die Linke, up from 8.7% in 2005. The next government will most likely be a coalition between the FDP and CDU-CSU.

[Dimentio]

The social democrats gained 23,5. Probably a justified punishment given the fact that they rather reigned together with Merkel than with the Left party. People today tend to vote more after who is going to be able to form a government than after ideology. It is important to appear as being able to govern.

[Q]

The social democrats gained 23,5. Probably a justified punishment given the fact that they rather reigned together with Merkel than with the Left party. People today tend to vote more after who is going to be able to form a government than after ideology. It is important to appear as being able to govern.
People vote on whatever alternatives there are. Die Linke's result could have been much bigger I think, if it was in a principled opposition against the capitalist instead of moving to the right to become more salonfähig.

[gorillafuck]

Can someone give me a quick overview of the different parties in Germany?

[Die Neue Zeit]

Salonfahig?

[Tyrlop]

Can someone give me a quick overview of the different parties in Germany?

Okey:
NPD = nationalist party
CDU/CSU = Christian conservative party
FDP = Liberal party
SPD = Social Democrat party
Die Linke(The Left) = Left-socialist / eurocommunist party.

[Q]

Salonfahig?
It's translatable to "presentable". In other words: to make yourself more trustworthy towards other parties in order to aim for a position in a coalition.

[BobKKKindle$]

Can someone give me a quick overview of the different parties in Germany? In Germany, where elections are based on proportional representation, you need to get at least 5% of the popular vote in order to be eligible for representation in the Bundestag, and so, in addition to the five parties that are going to have seats following this election (SPD, CDU, FDP, Die Linke, and the Greens) there are also several parties that may have received significant numbers of votes at a local level, but won't get parliamentary seats - one of these being the NPD, which has been elected to several Land parliaments in the past, along with other right-wing parties like the DVU. The use of a PR system means that no party has ever received enough votes to govern on its own without entering into a coalition with another party - with the sole exception of the 1957 election, when the CDU-CSU gained 54% of the 497 Bundestag seats available, and even in this case, Adenauer offered two cabinet positions to the DP, which had won only 17 seats, and was established after the war mainly to represent the interests of internally-displaced refugees. The FDP has historically been the only option for both the SPD and the CDU, giving rise to a triangular party system, under which the FDP spent more time in office than either of the main parties, but the emergence of the Greens in the 1970s has resulted in a shift towards a new party system, comprised of two blocs, with the FDP and CDU on one side, and the SPD and the Greens on the other. Before the previous coalition, there was also a "grand coalition" between the SPD and CDU during the 1960s, and one of the results of this was the emergence of the APO, the extra-parliamentary opposition, centered around figures like Rudi Dutschke.

This has changed yet again with the emergence of Die Linke, with whom the SPD has entered into a coalition in the Berlin city government, where both parties have pushed through neo-liberal reforms, although the SPD has stated on several occasional that Die Linke is still considered "un-coalitionable" as far as the federal government is concerned. Since the last Land elections, there has also been the remarkable phenomenon of the CDU and the Greens forming a coalition in the city government of Hamburg. It is also significant that a brief growth in electoral success for the right in the 1990s caused the FDP to shift rightwards on issues like immigration, which partly explains the inability of those parties to come close to getting parliamentary seats, after it seemed for a short time that they might be on the verge of doing so. As you will doubtless know if you read into the party's history and what other politicians in Germany have to say about it, Die Linke is descended from the remnants of the SED, whose supporters and members constituted themselves as the PDS after reunification and were able to secure parliamentary representation due to a special rule that allowed parties which received more than 5% in the New Lander (i.e. the five states that used to comprise the DDR and are now part of the Federal Republic) to be represented in the Bundestag even if their share of the national vote failed to pass the threshold. The current Die Linke was formed by a merger between the PDS and another organization comprised of dissidents from the SPD, termed the WASG, and it is this development that has allowed the party to break out of its traditional heartland in eastern Germany.

[Q]

:lol: at "quick overview" followed by a Bobian wall of text.

[Die Neue Zeit]

When is Oskar Lafontaine's speech going to be released? :(

[Revy]

Okey:
NPD = nationalist party

Calling them nationalists is a bit of an understatement, they're neo-Nazis....

[Dimentio]

People vote on whatever alternatives there are. Die Linke's result could have been much bigger I think, if it was in a principled opposition against the capitalist instead of moving to the right to become more salonfähig.

The problem is the huge number of voters who are indifferent or so de-ideologised that they just vote for the incumbent in order to keep stability.

[Kwisatz Haderach]

Looks like the FDP got enough votes to be able to form a coalition with the CDU/CSU. Fuck.

But, on the bright side, Die Linke remained in fourth place, increased its share of the vote by 4% and got its best result ever.

[Comrade B]

Fuck, a coalition government between the conservatives and the liberals... beautiful...
Though it is kind of cool that Die Linke got 12%, it means nothing until the next election.

[Kwisatz Haderach]

Realistically, due to the continuous decline of the SPD, a liberal-conservative coalition was inevitable sooner or later. If it did not happen now, it would have happened in 2013.

[Rjevan]

Haha, Bob, hardly a "quick overview" but a perfect overview, couldn't have done it beter myself, this could be out of a German social studies book. ;)

Well, seems like we have to deal with those two sweeties now:
http://bundestagswahl.t-online.de/b/20/08/54/48/id_20085448/tid_t/index.jpg

Nice. On the left you can see Guido Westerwelle, the head of the FDP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Democratic_Party_(Germany)), "Free Democratic Party", free market liberals, party of the upper class, employers, managers and rich, vehemently fighting for tax reduction for rich citizens, tax relief for business companies and against social welfare... Since years he longs to become Foreign Minister and vice-chancellor, a dream which is now very likely to come true.

According to the newest extrapolation -the turnout of voters was 71.2%, a new all-time low- the situation is this:
CDU/CSU (conservatives): 33.8%
SPD (social-democrats): 23.1%
FDP (liberals): 14.6%
Die Linke (left socialists): between 11.9% and 12.5%
The Greens (environmentalists): 10.6%

So a CDU-FDP coalition would have 48.4% and therefore not the majority but it is still sure that this coalition will rule Germany for the next 4 years, due to so called "Überhangsmandate", a system laborious to explain, which has been declared illegal against the "Grundgesetz" (our constitution) by the "Bundesgerichtshof", our highest court and only stayed in power for this election, 2011 it will end. Lucky coincidence, huh?

While the DKP (German Communist Party) didn't even run for the election there are no results available yet for the MLPD (Marxist-Leninist Party of Germany), same for the PSG (Party for Social Justice, Trotskyists). The NPD (National Democratic (ha-ha-ha) Party, neo-nazis) gained 1.5% and the results for the DVU (German Volks Union, neo-fascists/nazis) is not available yet, at least they lost their seats in Brandenburg parliament, last time they got 6% there, today 1.1%.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

After all I agree with Kwisatz Haderach, sooner or later a liberal-conservative coalition was totally inevitable and it was only the choice between this CDU-FDP and a big coalition between CDU and SPD again.
I see hard times coming towards Germany, this won't be comfortable, massive cuts in our welfare system are already definitely planned and will very likely become even more massive thanks to the FDP.

But maybe in the long run it is not even that bad that this happens now. There are also (almost evident) rumors that the value added tax will be increased from 19% to at least 24, if not 25-26% and "economic experts" expect "an outcry and outrage of the population" because of this after it becomes reality after the election - and the FDP constantly promised that there won't be any tax increase if they get into government. Maybe this will shock and outrage the people that much that an CDU-FDP coalition has absolutely no chance in 2013 and if that's the case - the constant rise of the FDP is ended and these two parties are connected with massive price increase and therefore lose support - much is won!

[Das war einmal]

I dont get it. Do people like to fuck themselves? In germany they have the same kind of coalition like in the Netherlands, a cristian-social democratic government. But although the social-democrats are always punished for bad results, the christian democrats never seem to suffer that much from new elections... Why? You know it vows for a dictatorship of the proletarian vangaurd, because clearly people are too stupid to see whats best for them.

[Dimentio]

I dont get it. Do people like to fuck themselves? In germany they have the same kind of coalition like in the Netherlands, a cristian-social democratic government. But although the social-democrats are always punished for bad results, the christian democrats never seem to suffer that much from new elections... Why? You know it vows for a dictatorship of the proletarian vangaurd, because clearly people are too stupid to see whats best for them.

Because leftist voters are discontent and want change.

Therefore, they tolerate less from their political representatives. At the same time, rightist voters want to prevent change and preserve status quo. Hence, right-centrist political representatives only need to keep a sense of stability and could screw their voters over and over and over again. They would still vote for them.

[Das war einmal]

Because leftist voters are discontent and want change.

Therefore, they tolerate less from their political representatives. At the same time, rightist voters want to prevent change and preserve status quo. Hence, right-centrist political representatives only need to keep a sense of stability and could screw their voters over and over and over again. They would still vote for them.

Than how is it possible that the Liberals have gained since then? Its only possible because a part of the people who voted earlier on the SPD are voting CDU/CSU or the FDP now

But you are right about this, polls show that 67% of the population don't consider the SPD 'social-democratic'. Because of the centre position AND the crisis the SPD had no real option to show social policy. Let this be a lesson for Die Linke, the only route for socialism is through revolution and never through parlemantary elections.

[Dimentio]

More likely, it is so that SPD voters are staying on the couch and not bothering voting at all. The only good thing in Germany is that the extreme right is so impotent.

[Das war einmal]

Alas, it does not matter who runs the show, the country will continue to suffer under the crisis and the far left should continue to prepare for strikes and other non-parliamentary activism.

A quick note aside, its astonishing to see the lack of interest of the media about these elections compared to the American elections. Germany is responsible for 80% of the export and therefor much more important to the Netherlands.

[Demogorgon]

The SPD was always going to suffer badly. Going into coalition with the CDU/CSU was always going to hurt them, junior partners in grand coalitions always tend to take most of the blame and none of the credit. So the losses they have made are both predictable and deserved.

Obviously the success of Die Linke is to be celebrated, it has good elements and bad elements for sure, but at least it is showing the rest of Europe how to run a successful mass party of the left rather than tiny fringe groups.

Interestingly enough, according to the exit polls on the BBC site, the CDU/CSU has very slightly declined in vote share, however compared to the collapse in the SPD it is nothing. The fact that they can form a coalition with the FDP comes from the latter's success. Which brings us to the biggest question: why, why, why in the midst of the financial crises will a sizeable minority of people vote for the party most friendly to the idiots that caused it?

[Die Neue Zeit]

The FDP is friendly to small businesses, not so much to the banks. Typical right-wing conservative parties are like this. It is the liberal parties ("center-left") that are bank-friendlier.

[Demogorgon]

The FDP is friendly to small businesses, not so much to the banks. Typical right-wing conservative parties are like this. It is the liberal parties ("center-left") that are bank-friendlier.
Not really, the FPD have always ben in the pocket of big business. Indeed not so long ago they were calling themselves "the party of the rich". Rhapsodising about small businesses is certainly a favourite tactic of right wing parties out to win votes from the so called "aspirational voters", but it doesn't really mean that's where their sympathies lie. To be sure they want to make small businesses exempt from various legislation that protects workers but their tax policies are clearly going to primarily benefit big business.

[Die Neue Zeit]

I suppose the FDP is an anomaly, then. The Tories in the UK and Canada present themselves as "business-friendly" regarding small businesses, and don't mention the "bankers" very much. Any thoughts, by the way, on the typical liberal party being bank-friendlier?

[L.J.Solidarity]

I think the FDP's gains have to do with the bourgeoisie gaining class-consciousness during the crisis. All the "criticism" against them in the media and the talk about "social unrest" made them flock around their traditional party. A CDU-FDP government was considered the only probable outcome until a few days before the election, which means that capitalists didn't need to vote for the CDU as a "lesser evil" in order to prevent an SPD-led government.

[Demogorgon]

I suppose the FDP is an anomaly, then. The Tories in the UK and Canada present themselves as "business-friendly" regarding small businesses, and don't mention the "bankers" very much. Any thoughts, by the way, on the typical liberal party being bank-friendlier?
Nobody mentions bankers very much, largely because bankers are about as popular as the cancellation of Christmas at the best of times and in the current climate they are toxic. However it is actual policies and actions that count and if you look at the behaviour of the Tories here for instance you can see they are very bank friendly. Indeed you'll notice that while Labour wants to ban a lot of the previous activities of the banks and place restrictions on what bankers can be paid, the Tories oppose it.

It is the same principle with big business. No serious party says it is the party of big business because it isn't a vote winner. Pro-business parties say they side with small businesses because it plays better with the public. Their actual policies though are clearly pro big business. The FDP falls into this pattern quite nicely.

[Die Neue Zeit]

Why does the wiki result show support at only 11.9%? Is that an earlier exit poll?

[chebol]

Preliminary results (Englisch) with all the minor parties: http://www.bundeswahlleiter.de/en/bundestagswahlen/BTW_BUND_09/ergebnisse/bundesergebnisse/index.html

Interaktive grafik: http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/0,1518,651389,00.html

Left Party Celebrates While Greens Quarrel
http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,651686,00.html

http://www.die-linke.de/

[Die Neue Zeit]

They still show the 11.9% exit poll figure.

[Cheung Mo]

hahaha...Congrats to all those morons who voted for the Pirate Party and the Animal Rights Party for making this right-wing government possible. Your hard work is very much appreciated.

Seriously, why the fuck do Pirate Parties even exist? I support pretty much everything they stand for, but there is nothing they stand for that the European radical left does not.

[BobKKKindle$]

They still show the 11.9% exit poll figure.

I think 12.5-13% was the exit poll figure, so 11.9% might be the final result.

[Die Neue Zeit]

hahaha...Congrats to all those morons who voted for the Pirate Party and the Animal Rights Party for making this right-wing government possible. Your hard work is very much appreciated.

Seriously, why the fuck do Pirate Parties even exist? I support pretty much everything they stand for, but there is nothing they stand for that the European radical left does not.

I see you've checked out my Rabble.ca (http://www.rabble.ca/babble/canadian-politics/pirate-party-canada-and-why-left-ndp-workers-should-organize) thread.

The answer is simple: the issues of the Pirate Party are ones that are sidelined by the major parties, including Die Linke, and also by Trotskyist and other far-left parties in favour of "bread and butter" issues.

[Kwisatz Haderach]

Interestingly enough, according to the exit polls on the BBC site, the CDU/CSU has very slightly declined in vote share, however compared to the collapse in the SPD it is nothing. The fact that they can form a coalition with the FDP comes from the latter's success. Which brings us to the biggest question: why, why, why in the midst of the financial crises will a sizeable minority of people vote for the party most friendly to the idiots that caused it?
The FDP went to great lengths to look unfriendly to the idiots that caused the crisis. It did this by vocally opposing government bailouts for big business. That was probably enough to persuade a few percentage points of voters that the FDP was on their side after all, and not the side of the rich.

[Dimentio]

hahaha...Congrats to all those morons who voted for the Pirate Party and the Animal Rights Party for making this right-wing government possible. Your hard work is very much appreciated.

Seriously, why the fuck do Pirate Parties even exist? I support pretty much everything they stand for, but there is nothing they stand for that the European radical left does not.

The pirate parties are good in the essence that they have a leftist programme but no leftist aesthetics. In Sweden, the media is cuddling them. I think the left would win a lot if it would ditch its aesthetics.

[Edelweiss]

On a side note: Guido Westerwelle, the upcoming liberal, German foreign minister is openly gay. So despite of the deeply reactionary positions the new government has, Germany will soon have a women as chancellor, a handicapped man in a wheelchair as the minister of inferior and a gay man as foreign minister. That certainly doesn't make any of their positions better, all of them are total assholes, but it's pretty exceptional even for an supposed "western-liberal" country. And the fact that Westerwelle is gay doesn't seem to be even remotely an issue for the conservatives. I doubt this would be the case just 10 years ago, just like a female, protestant chancellor would have been a no-go for the (catholic) CDU just 20 years ago.

[Dimentio]

On a side note: Guido Westerwelle, the upcoming liberal, German foreign minister is openly gay. So despite of the deeply reactionary positions the new government has, Germany will soon have a women as chancellor, a handicapped man in a wheelchair as the minister of inferior and a gay man as foreign minister. That certainly doesn't make any of their positions better, all of them are total assholes, but it's pretty exceptional even for an supposed "western-liberal" country. And the fact that Westerwelle is gay doesn't seem to be even remotely an issue for the conservatives. I doubt this would be the case just 10 years ago, just like a female, protestant would have been a no-go for the (catholic) CDU just 20 years ago.

Especially centre-right governments tend to fill their ranks with representatives of minorities today. It is probably smart, as rightists are seen as anti-minorities by detractors. The Swedish centre-right government has one minister who is a coloured woman from Congo (who in the same time is one of the most - vocally speaking - anti-immigrant minister), a bisexual migration minister and and environment minister who is openly gay.

[Die Neue Zeit]

All the better for the left to ditch the New Left legacy of identity politics and focus on class politics, but anyways I'm not surprised by right-wing maneuverings around identity since the ascendancy of one Margaret Thatcher.

[Dimentio]

How much are people identifying with class today?

[Die Neue Zeit]

That's exactly my point: class politics (along with the politics of class emancipation) is a hard sell, but supposed short-cuts that lead to dead-ends are not the way to go. I suppose it could be "advertised/marketed" as "the only politically incorrect kind of politics." :)

[Demogorgon]

The FDP went to great lengths to look unfriendly to the idiots that caused the crisis. It did this by vocally opposing government bailouts for big business. That was probably enough to persuade a few percentage points of voters that the FDP was on their side after all, and not the side of the rich.
Yeah, I understand that, but I cannot see how it could be seen as a convincing ruse. I mean look at their history! That said, it will be interesting to see what happens once they are in Government and continue Merkel's bailout policies. Indeed some analysts are saying the FDP might get the finance portfolio. Talk about a poisoned chalice.

[Demogorgon]

All the better for the left to ditch the New Left legacy of identity politics and focus on class politics, but anyways I'm not surprised by right-wing maneuverings around identity since the ascendancy of one Margaret Thatcher.
Not really. Thatcher was hardly for women's equality. She wanted to be the special women who was counted amongst the men and could not abide other women competing with her.

Add in her racism and homophobia and you might argue the right took a backwards step identity-wise with her.

I agree focussing on identity politics over class politics is a bad idea, but lets not surrender it to the right just yet.

[RedBlackFreedom]

[...]
So a CDU-FDP coalition would have 48.4% and therefore not the majority but it is still sure that this coalition will rule Germany for the next 4 years, due to so called "Überhangsmandate", a system laborious to explain, which has been declared illegal against the "Grundgesetz" (our constitution) by the "Bundesgerichtshof", our highest court and only stayed in power for this election, 2011 it will end. Lucky coincidence, huh?
[...]

Well, even without the "Überhangsmandate" the number of seats would be enough...
And it was ruled by the "Bundesverfassungsgericht" (Federal Constitutional Court) not the "Bundesgerichtshof". ;)

Obviously the capitalist propaganda worked otherwise I can't explain why so many voted for the CDU or FDP.
Also it seems that a lot of people are finished with this system if just around 72% vote.

[PossiblyLeft]

So I assume revleft is voting NSDAP. ;)

[Revy]

So I assume revleft is voting NSDAP. ;)

I'm going to guess that you're trolling.

[PossiblyLeft]

The ;) was to indicate I wasn't serious.

[Demogorgon]

I have been reading through a lot of Der Spiegel's English language coverage to get a view of things from that perspective and I get the impression already that the CDU rank and file are quite angry at Merkel for not capitalising on the collapse of the SPD and causing them to be in an unusually weak position regarding the FDP, also the CSU has more or less conceded it has suffered a disaster.

All this means the future looks rather unpredictable. The media here has simply said Merkel is victorious, but it looks much more like the FDP has really benefited and Merkel is actually in a pretty precarious position and potentially might not manage four more years as Chancellor.

As I said earlier though, I can't imagine the FDP gaining much in the long run from this, they were able to present themselves as opposing all the Government's mistakes from before, now they have to be part of them. Hopefully if Conservative forces go into decline and the SPD continue to wither, Die Linke can do very well indeed.

After all, even if they aren't exactly ideal, at the very least they are a powerful anti-capitalist voice right at the centre of Europe and that is a good thing indeed.

[Woland]

MLPD got 30.000 votes, up from about 4.000 ten years ago.

[Revy]

Certainly the SPD seems to be on its own downfall, but you know how these things go. Die Linke might just morph into the same kind of party as SPD. Yes, that's a rather hopeless view of things. I am all for Die Linke becoming the party of the majority, but our cause would lose if the party were corrupted by the capitalists. It seems to be like a conveyor belt of politics. just moving, moving to the right to become big. Die Linke must reject that kind of strategy. a mass party, but a party of the working class.

[L.J.Solidarity]

MLPD got 30.000 votes, up from about 4.000 ten years ago.

Yeah, but down from 45,000 in 2005. The radical left generally had abysmal results, with 2,500 votes for the PSG (Socialist Equality party, candidates only in Berlin and NRW) and 1,900 for the DKP which was only eligible in Berlin.

[Die Neue Zeit]

The PSG is a horribly sectarian group with an overly narrow definition of "working class." A recent article said that the office workers who form the next biggest membership demographic of Die Linke are "middle-class." Heck, they dismiss the biggest membership demographic, pensioners, as not being working-class! :rolleyes:

[Revy]

The PSG is a horribly sectarian group with an overly narrow definition of "working class." A recent article said that the office workers who form the next biggest membership demographic of Die Linke are "middle-class." Heck, they dismiss the biggest membership demographic, pensioners, as not being working-class! :rolleyes:

agreed.
here what the SEP has to offer is a decent news website (World Socialist Web Site). but their party? ugh, I don't want to go into that.

[Die Neue Zeit]

Well, you can check out my History thread on the USPD. ;)

http://www.revleft.com/vb/uspd-tendencies-kpd-t118549/index.html

I quoted the WSWS translation of what Die Linke's Bartsch said regarding the USPD as "an outstanding role model for Left politics today."

[Luís Henrique]

I suppose the FDP is an anomaly, then. The Tories in the UK and Canada present themselves as "business-friendly" regarding small businesses, and don't mention the "bankers" very much. Any thoughts, by the way, on the typical liberal party being bank-friendlier?
The point is that the actual equivalent of the Tories in Germany is the CDU/SDU, not the FDP - who would in fact be the "liberals".

Luís Henrique

[SocialismOrBarbarism]

The PSG is a horribly sectarian group with an overly narrow definition of "working class." A recent article said that the office workers who form the next biggest membership demographic of Die Linke are "middle-class.":rolleyes:

Unless I am overlooking something, that article said no such thing.


Heck, they dismiss the biggest membership demographic, pensioners, as not being working-class! I think you are making far too much out of their remark about pensioners. The Russian Pensioners Party had hundreds of thousands of members, and yet I've never seen you describe it a mass working class party.

[Die Neue Zeit]

Unless I am overlooking something, that article said no such thing.

The article didn't mention office workers, but I read this yesterday:

http://www.rosalux.de/cms/fileadmin/rls_uploads/pdfs/Themen/Europa/the_left_in_europe.pdf

Look at p. 133 of the report:


The social structure of the former Left Party/PDS had scarcely changed in previous years: 77 percent of its members were pensioners, early retirees or unemployed. Students and trainees made up three percent, workers eight percent and office workers 18 percent of the membership.

[...]

Not until the emergence of the DIE LINKE party did the ratio between gainfully employed and non-gainfully employed change in relation to new members. Whereas in 2004 52 percent of new members were non-gainfully employed and 48 percent gainfully employed, in 2007 this ratio changed in favour of the gainfully employed. Now the DIE LINKE party members typically have very different career patterns, a trend accompanied by growing social, cultural and political fragmentation. This may represent an opportunity for DIE LINKE, if it is viewed and exploited as such and the necessary organizational framework is created.

Compare this to the WSWS article (granted, it wrote about voters and not members):

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2009/sep2009/left-s28.shtml


Its voters as well come predominantly from the middle class. A study by the German Institute for Economic Research (DIW) last year concluded that those on low incomes or from downwardly mobile social layers did not find above-average representation among its supporters. In particular, in the former East Germany, the Left Party relies predominantly on well situated and educated supporters. Here, the proportion of Left Party supporters is greatest among the “better-off elements in the middle class.” In the West, where its influence is substantially weaker, most supporters originated from the lower-middle class.

To the WSWS, anybody who isn't a manual worker isn't a proletarian. Clerical workers and professional workers aren't proletarians.

[Revy]

To the WSWS, anybody who isn't a manual worker isn't a proletarian. Clerical workers and professional workers aren't proletarians.

If that's true, then that's just sad. Just because someone works in an office doesn't even mean they have some exorbitant income, in fact, most don't. The "middle class" in the leftist sense is supposed to be the small-business owners.

[SocialismOrBarbarism]

The article didn't mention office workers, but I read this yesterday:

http://www.rosalux.de/cms/fileadmin/rls_uploads/pdfs/Themen/Europa/the_left_in_europe.pdf

Look at p. 133 of the report:



Compare this to the WSWS article (granted, it wrote about voters and not members):

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2009/sep2009/left-s28.shtml



To the WSWS, anybody who isn't a manual worker isn't a proletarian. Clerical workers and professional workers aren't proletarians.

As you point out they are referring to voters, not members. Do you have anything clearly showing that they think this?

[chebol]

The SEP/ PSG are actually quite clear in what they think of Die Linke (and absolutely everyone else, for that matter - here in Australia they regularly refer to every other revolutionary left group as a "middle class protest outfit", and carry on with nutso arcane consiracy theories about how the 4th International was infiltrated by the FBI, and most of the rest of the left are actually governmnt agents).

You want more evidence that the PSG/ SEP are sectarian nuts? Are you sure you actually read the article posted above? That same fruitcake article asserts, under the heading What does the Left Party represent?:



"the Left Party is a state party which defends the bourgeois order."


"The programme of the Left Party defends capitalist private property and the bourgeois state"


"It tries to deflect any popular mobilization against social attacks or war by employing demagogic clichés, the better, at the crucial moment, to subordinate popular opposition to the needs of German imperialism"


"The Left Party cannot even be compared with the social democratic parties of the post-war period, which, like the British Labour Party or the German SPD, also advocated a bourgeois programme, but still had mass influence among workers. The latter is lacking in the Left Party. It is not a mass party. The majority of its members are inactive or are pensioners and only a small section originates from the working class."


"Its voters as well come predominantly from the middle class."


"The Left Party is the result of the combination of two bureaucratic apparatuses—or, more accurately, the skeletons of two bureaucratic apparatuses—which have long stood against the working class."


"[Lafontaine] is far more acutely conscious of the dangers posed to the capitalist order by a social rebellion than other bourgeois politicians. His populist demagogy is designed to deflect such a movement and block its path."


"the Left Party is not the starting point for the building of a combative workers’ party, but the result of a conscious initiative by representatives of the ruling class. Its whole raison d’être consists of suppressing any independent movement of the working class."

QED.

[L.J.Solidarity]

The PSG's/wsws perception of reality is really amazing:

The collapse of the SPD opens the way for the building of a new socialist party. In this regard, the increase in the number of Berliners who voted for the Socialist Equality Party (Partei für Soziale Gleichheit—PSG) is significant. Within three months of the European elections, the PSG was able to double its vote from 714 to 1,423.
Their leader actually manages to ignore not only that they failed to put up candidates in half of the states where they could do so in 2005, but also that they lost two thirds of their votes in NRW and about 200 in Berlin compared to 2005.
But of course they have been worse off in their long and ridiculous history, for example in 1990 when they still were called the Socialist Worker's League (lead by Ulrich Rippert, nonetheless) they achieved a total of 826 votes - compared to 1610 for the Sparts.

[Niccolò Rossi]

The SEP/ PSG are actually quite clear in what they think of Die Linke

Yes, and what they think of Die Linke is absolutely correct.


You want more evidence that the PSG/ SEP are sectarian nuts?

There is nothing 'sectarian' about their line on this issue. 'Sectarian' is merely the favourite catch-cry of collaborationist and reformist outfits like the DSP.

[SocialismOrBarbarism]

The SEP/ PSG are actually quite clear in what they think of Die Linke (and absolutely everyone else, for that matter - here in Australia they regularly refer to every other revolutionary left group as a "middle class protest outfit", and carry on with nutso arcane consiracy theories about how the 4th International was infiltrated by the FBI, and most of the rest of the left are actually governmnt agents).

They say most of the left are government agents? Source on that?


You want more evidence that the PSG/ SEP are sectarian nuts? Are you sure you actually read the article posted above? That same fruitcake article asserts, under the heading What does the Left Party represent?:Who said they weren't sectarian? That's pretty obvious. I don't see what is so crazy about that article, though, besides this: "Its whole raison d’être consists of suppressing any independent movement of the working class." As for the other things you quoted, how is Die Linke not defending the bourgeois state? Where do they call for an end to wage labor/capitalism? How is the claim that the party is mainly made up of pensioners, which is a well known fact, false? How is the Left Party not formed of the "skeleton" of the SED?

[communard resolution]

The FDP is friendly to small businesses, not so much to the banks. Typical right-wing conservative parties are like this. It is the liberal parties ("center-left") that are bank-friendlier.

Jacob,

the FDP are in fact a liberal rather than right-wing conservative party, and as another poster pointed out earlier, they branded themselves as the "party of high earners" some time ago.

[Die Neue Zeit]

Fair enough. I just had in mind Macnair's last article (http://www.cpgb.org.uk/worker/780/making.php) where he mentions the historical case for the "party of order" and the "party of liberty." The former necessarily "appeals to the authority of the father in the petty bourgeois family, to the unity of the nation and to religious ideas inherited from pre-capitalist society," while the latter "appeals to the freedom and equality of market exchange to construct an image of capitalist egalitarianism and democracy" while under cover appealing to the most unproductive of capitalists (perhaps not the media barons, but definitely the big banks).

[Edelweiss]

Jacob,

the FDP are in fact a liberal rather than right-wing conservative party, and as another poster pointed out earlier, they branded themselves as the "party of high earners" some time ago.


That is correct. The FDP ("Freie Demokratische Partei" = free democratic party) is a classic (economic-, neo-)liberal party, in the European sense of the term. It's really not a conservative party.

They used to be some social, civil rights liberals with more influence in the party, especially during the time of their coalition with the SPD, but that was long time ago. With some expection the party is nowadays dominated by economic liberals. Their liberalism pretty much limits to advocate freedom of the markets, struggle for tax cuts and to struggle against the German social social state, or as they put it for "more individual responsibility". Nevertheless the party upholds some social-liberal positions like their resistance against the recent Internet censorship laws of the grand coalition.

Their major success in the elections is totally absurd as they represent the ideology which has lead to the economic crisis that we are just in.

[chebol]

Regarding the ICFI's conspiracy theories, their original frenzy was around Joseph Hansen of the US SWP:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Committee_of_the_Fourth_Internationa l
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2008/oct2008/hist-o07.shtml
and
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2008/oct2008/hist-o02.shtml

They've managed to extrapolate to wherever they see fit (which is just about everywhere - see their characterisation of Die Linke, for example, as an agent of the state and imperialism in holding back the german workers' movement). I basically can't be arsed chasing down specific examples, as the arcane madness of the ICFI is best left alone, as far as I'm concerned. I've seen and heard their members spouting their conspiracy theories at enough rallies, and been called a "spy" enough times to know where they stand vis-a-vis reality.


I don't see what is so crazy about that article, though, besides this: "Its whole raison d’être consists of suppressing any independent movement of the working class."

Try reading the whole article with that line as your filter. The slant becomes clearer then...


As for the other things you quoted, how is Die Linke not defending the bourgeois state? Where do they call for an end to wage labor/capitalism?

Well, for starters, the calls for the overthrow not only of "finance capitalism", but the transcendence of capitalism more generally that some of its leaders have made (including Lafontaine). What they mean by this (and whether theymean it ay all) is an open question, but I would not call that 'defending the bourgeois state'.


How is the claim that the party is mainly made up of pensioners, which is a well known fact, false?

The membership of Die Linke *was* largely pensioners from the East. Due largely to the work of members in the West, it is now mostly workers and unemployed workers.


How is the Left Party not formed of the "skeleton" of the SED?

Die Linke was formed out of the PDS, which was a politically reformed "skeleton" (if you will, although the word implies the core cadre, which is not who formed it. Rather, the leadership of the PDS was largely the reformist-minded, pro-democracy members of the the SED, like Gysi) of the SED.

But it was also formed out of the "Monday Marches" in the West, which wasn't mostly trade union bureacrats or SPD bureacrats, but pissd-off workers opposing the SPD's neoliberal Hartz IV reforms. In addition, you also have the autonomist, revolutionary, trotskyist and communist activists from the West. While the party leadership and bureaucracy is still dominated by the more conservative ex-PDS members, after the recent election successes the dynamic is currently with the western groups (the "LINKE-LINKE"), who are organised in a number of networks and platforms (Anti-Capitalist Left, Socialist Left, Emancipatory Left, Communist Platform, etc), and are allied with Lafontaine in pushing Die Linke further left.

There are elements in the East who would love to get rid of Lafontaine, or minimise his role. That ain't gonna happen. Also, some of the more "traditional" elements of even the PDS refused to join Die Linke because of th "radical" Westies.

The PSG/ SEP "analysis" of Die Linke bears as little relation to reality as they can get away with while still having enough facts to make their argument look slightly sane. It is not. Fullstop.

Die Linke is a party under production. There is currently a good opportunity to bring it lefwards, and to solidify the revolutionary left within it as a bulwark against the bureaucratic elements in both the East and West.

The PSG has no interest in that. They're happy with their "pure" irrelevance, and I'm quite happy for them to stay there.

No, Niccolo, they are not absolutely correct on Die Linke (despite using kernels of truth to spin lunacy). Also, I suggest you grow up and realise that "sectarian" is not a swear word, but an analysis of political behaviour (your own being a case in point).

[Die Neue Zeit]

I'm very skeptical about Oskar Lafontaine's "We want to overthrow capitalism" (http://www.revleft.com/vb/die-linkes-oskar-t108987/index.html) politics, but I appreciate his uncle personality (I said this in the Dutch Socialist Party thread).

Niccolo was half correct: Die Linke is a proper bourgeois worker party, demographically working-class but not really committed to the three things in the Manifesto that make up a proper proletarian-not-necessarily-communist party ("class for itself" formation, end to bourgeois supremacy, conquest of political power by the class).

[chebol]

I never contested the problematic nature of Die Linke. What I contested was that the PSG was "absolutely correct" in their analysis of Die Linke, which distorts the problems you note, and turns them into an active and conscious conspiracy to hold back the workers' movement and to protect the german capitalist state.

As I've pointed out several times before, I'm also sceptical of Lafontaine's rhetoric (and Bartsch's for that matter), but it provides space for the genuine left in Die Linke to organise against the bureaucratic and conservative elements.

But I have more time for Lafontaine than I do for "leftists" who spend half their time pissing on the rest of the left, instead of winning people to socialist ideas and action.

[communard resolution]

Tina Becker of the CPGB wrote a piece on Die Linke just after last month's regional elections in the Saarland, South Germany. I haven't had the time to read it myself yet, but I thought the link may contribute to the debate:

Oskar Lafontaine: 'We want to govern' (http://www.cpgb.org.uk/worker/783/oskarlafontaine.php)

[L.J.Solidarity]

While the party leadership and bureaucracy is still dominated by the more conservative ex-PDS members, after the recent election successes the dynamic is currently with the western groups (the "LINKE-LINKE"), who are organised in a number of networks and platforms (Anti-Capitalist Left, Socialist Left, Emancipatory Left, Communist Platform, etc), and are allied with Lafontaine in pushing Die Linke further left.

I'm afraid your information on the party and it's currents isn't absolutely accurate. Emancipatory Left is a small tendency (they claim not to be a "real" faction) that is clearly to the right of the (western) party mainstream. They're mostly young careerists who support basically every participation in SPD-led government, but do it with more "style" than the classical PDS conservatives, who are organised in the "forum democratic socialism" (fds) faction. They also claim to be more radical than fds because they support the idea of basic income.
Socialist Left also doesn't do much to "push the party further left". They used to be the right-wing tendency in the WASG (as opposed to Anticapitalist Left, who were the left-wing tendency). For example all of Die Linke's members in the state parliament of Hamburg are in SL, and they're also mostly in favor of forming a coalition with the SPD and Greens as soon as possible - they'd have already done so, hadn't the Greens opted to govern together with the CDU. The only people who think SL is particularly leftist are the remains of the German section of IST (marx21), but they seem to have become quite career-oriented themselves, you mostly hear from them when they manage to get another of their members hired by the party as a full-timer.
Lastly, believing that Oskar Lafontaine would be pushing the party to the left in any real way is illusionary. Lafontaine is all too ready to cooperate with the SPD (see Saarland, he won't become a minister there but everything the party does to get into a coalition government at the moment certainly doesn't happen against his will) and I'm quite sure he's readily going to endorse it when Die Linke's leadership finds that the SPD has "re-socialdemocratised" - he's a social democrat himself after all, I'm not aware of Lafontaine ever having claimed to be a socialist.

[Yehuda Stern]

But I have more time for Lafontaine than I do for "leftists" who spend half their time pissing on the rest of the left, instead of winning people to socialist ideas and action.

Apparently the time you dedicate for Lafontaine takes up all that time you could've used to actually do something useful in your life, like build a real revolutionary party. It's a shame.

Oh, and the ICFI has a pretty sordid history, true; that doesn't make their analysis of Die Linke any less accurate. In fact, I find that it's spot on. Even if Lafontaine and Gisy don't consciously think about preventing the creation of a revolutionary party, their break with the SPD is clearly meant to rebuild trust in social-democracy, thus helping in effect to prevent the creation of a revolutionary party.

[chebol]

Yehuda Stern wrote:


Apparently the time you dedicate for Lafontaine takes up all that time you could've used to actually do something useful in your life, like build a real revolutionary party. It's a shame.

So, when did you stop beating your wife? Get a grip.

L.J.Solidarity, I am actually quite well-informed about the various currents in Die Linke. (I know very well, for example, about the size, weight and history of EmaLi, the Sozialistische and Antikapitalistische Linke, not to mention other, less well-known, groups).

My point was - if you will bother to reread my post - that these groups, and their cooperation, and the role of Lafontaine, serve to draw Die Linke further left than the ex-PDS and ex-SPD bureaucracies would prefer.

More importantly, the space created in this struggle gives oxygen to the struggle of revolutionaries in Die Linke (including, but certainly not limited to, the SAV, for example. Also the ISL, and other, non-affiliated, activists). You need the broad consensus and toleration created, or the entire SAV, for example, may well be out on its ear (misbehaving gets you nowhere you know... ;-) )

Further, you wrote:


Lastly, believing that Oskar Lafontaine would be pushing the party to the left in any real way is illusionary.

To repeat, I don't think Lafontaine is pushing Die Linke to the left. I think he is playing a left flank to the ex-PDS, and in doing so, is creating the space for a genuine left in Die Linke to flourish. In this way, he is an ally, and his occasional rhetoric is a boon in that respect. At the same time he is dragging the SPD leftwards, which is both a good thing, and a major challenge for the LINKE-LINKE to get its crap together.


Lafontaine is all too ready to cooperate with the SPD (see Saarland, he won't become a minister there but everything the party does to get into a coalition government at the moment certainly doesn't happen against his will) and I'm quite sure he's readily going to endorse it when Die Linke's leadership finds that the SPD has "re-socialdemocratised" - he's a social democrat himself after all,

Agreed and agreed. Where have I ever indicated otherwise? The point is, moralising and taking perfectly pure positions when you're in the middle of a major reorganisation of left-wing politics is particularly stupid, and you need to take advantage of every opening Lafontaine provides - especially before the SPD shifts left again, and the window begins to close.


I'm not aware of Lafontaine ever having claimed to be a socialist.

Perhaps not, but, as I have pointed out, some of his rhetoric suggests otherwise. This needs to be taken with a grain or twelve of salt, but it also needs to be used, not spat on because it isn't coming from a career revoutionary (who anyway would never get the platform).

[Die Neue Zeit]

I'm afraid your information on the party and it's currents isn't absolutely accurate. Emancipatory Left is a small tendency (they claim not to be a "real" faction) that is clearly to the right of the (western) party mainstream. They're mostly young careerists who support basically every participation in SPD-led government, but do it with more "style" than the classical PDS conservatives, who are organised in the "forum democratic socialism" (fds) faction. They also claim to be more radical than fds because they support the idea of basic income.

So Emancipatory Left is basically a two-issue (basic income and coalitions) group then, right?


L.J.Solidarity, I am actually quite well-informed about the various currents in Die Linke. (I know very well, for example, about the size, weight and history of EmaLi, the Sozialistische and Antikapitalistische Linke, not to mention other, less well-known, groups).

Care to spill the beans? Wikipedia doesn't give much info on them.

[L.J.Solidarity]

You could say so, yes. It's also noteworthy that there's a kind of "parallel network" within the Green Party also called "Emancipatory left", the two groupings seem to be in close contact to each other.
EmaLi in die Linke publishes a magazine called "prager frühling" (prague spring) the editors of which mostly are former members of Young Democrats/Young Left - and that organisation which hasn't really been active on it's own a lot in recent years has developed into a kind of forum bringing "leftist" members of the Greens and "rightist" members of die Linke together. So perhaps you could say that Emancipatory Left is trying to build a base for coalitions with the Greens while fds has a similar role towards the SPD.

[Die Neue Zeit]

You still didn't spill the beans on everyone else. Either that, or you can edit the Wiki on Die Linke to tell much more. :p ;)

By the way, as a general comment in this thread, it would seem that, despite the "realo"-ism of "assholes" like Gregor Gysi and Petra Pau, and despite potential liquidationism on the part of ex-SPDers, Die Linke has become the second-largest party in the former East Germany, surpassing the SPD:

http://www.emerginvest.com/GlobalEconomyMatters/9/30/2009/Germanys_2009_Bundestag_election_a_political_reali gnment_in_progress.html


To be certain, differences in the voting patterns of Germany's western and eastern zones have been a distinctive trait of German electoral politics since reunification in 1990: specifically, over the course of the last two decades PDS and its 2005 successor, the Left Party have retained significant popular support in the erstwhile German Democratic Republic, much to the dismay of politicians in the western part of the country. Nonetheless, until now CDU and SPD remained the two largest parties in the so-called "new Länder," with PDS and subsequently the Left Party in an increasingly stronger third place, but third place all the same.

At the same time, PDS fared poorly in the in the "old Länder" of western Germany, where it was widely reviled as the successor of East Germany's defunct Communist Party; even with the backing of SPD dissidents headed by former Social Democratic leader Oskar Lafontaine, the Left Party had a relatively limited impact outside Lafontaine's home state of Saarland: in the 2005 Bundestag election, the new party polled a quarter of the vote in the east, but less than five percent in the west.

However, while the Union parties are now the dominant force in both German sides of the now-defunct Iron Curtain, after Sunday's election the Left Party has become the second largest in eastern Germany, closely behind CDU; the Social Democrats have fallen to a distant third place.

[Yehuda Stern]

So, when did you stop beating your wife? Get a grip.

Am I distorting what you said? Didn't you say you have more time for Lafontaine than to people who are trying to build a revolutionary alternative to parties like Die Linke?

[Die Neue Zeit]

Were it not for the obstacle-for-a-fact that Die Linke is a bourgeois worker party and not a proletarian-not-necessarily-communist party (let alone a communist party), I would have said that I'd like to have more time for builders of the workers' party-movement than for sectarians trying to build sectarian alternatives to that. ;)