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Monkey Riding Dragon
25th September 2009, 20:55
DISCLAIMER: The subject of this thread is a joke, so don't take it too seriously. I wasn't actually sure what forum to post this in (it might be too political for this one; couldn't tell), but thinking it basically non-serious, I decided on this one. If it needs to be moved, then alright.

Anyhow, so I was randomly searching the web one day when I ran across this site called Red Vocabulary (http://reds.linefeed.org/vocab.html), the apparent goal of which was to provide brief definitions principally of various schools of "communist" and socialist thought from a blatantly Trotskyist point of view. I must concede to finding it entertaining. The most amusing aspect of it, however, I thought, was the graph provided at the top of the page. As you can see at the link, the graph, following the example of the ever-popular Political Compass, attempts to concretely measure the "leftness" and democratic character of each school. I find this funny because, of course, it's impossible to objectively measure the subjective. The entire exercise is thus inevitably tinted with with the bias of the graph's creator. Conveniently enough, it happens that Trotskyism (clearly the view being promoted here) appears in the 'rational center' of the upper-left quadrant. Titoism, Eurocommunism, and even ordinary reformist socialism also appear to the left of Maoism. Councilism and De Leonism also seem to be interestingly located outside the "left wing communism" box.

In the spirit of good fun though, and recognizing the superficial nature of such an exercise, I challenge you to provide your own idea of the imaginary left-right spectrum of communist or socialist thought. Provide your biased spectrum and briefly explain your reasoning behind the positions you placed the various schools in.

I'll start us off with my spectrum of "communist" thought as an example:



RDR'S GREAT LEFT-RIGHT SPECTRUM OF COMMUNIST THOUGHT:


Ultra-Leftism<--Trotskyism--Maoism--Hoxhaism--Castroism--Titoism--"Khrushchevism"--Eurocommunism-->JucheEXPLANATION: My standard of measure is based mainly on that of the "communists" who identify themselves as farthest left. I combined their "no compromises" standard of leftness with my personal bias as to what constitutes a principle compromise and what constitutes an open, socialist society.


Juche ("Kim Il Sungism") falls on the rightmost end of the spectrum because it corresponds to feudal monarchism, which is the opposite of real communism. Eurocommunism at least corresponds to some form of democracy (bourgeois democracy).

I doubt there is any organization in the world willing to formally call itself Khrushchevist, but that's nevertheless the reality of many parties and organizations (such as the Communist Party, USA and the Communist Party of Canada, for example, both of which simply describe themselves as 'Marxist-Leninist'). Khrushchevism argues against the need for ongoing revolution in socialist society, contending that communism can be reached from there simply by developing the productive forces and peacefully competing with capitalist nations in the economic arena. In terms of getting to socialism, Khrushchevists argue for a "peaceful transition" through "democratic revolution". The difference between this school and the Eurocommunists is that the latter oppose any rupture ever with bourgeois parliaments and other bourgeois state machinery, putting forward the need for a wholly 'evolutionary' path to socialism and communism, at least in their respective countries. We might say then that Khrushchevism corresponds to democratic socialism and Eurocommunism to more commonplace social democracy. Both are essentially reformist and that's the point.

Titoists put forward the need for each country to pursue an independent course to communism, in opposition to the campist approach of the socialist countries working together to defeat the enemy and transcend national borders. The "independent" course taken by Tito quickly saw Yugoslavia privatize (in the form of cooperatives) most industry, de-collectivize agriculture, move under the U.S. nuclear umbrella, open up to foreign direct investment, and create a stock market while becoming ever more indebted to the imperialist countries until a series of IMF crises forced generalized privatization (manifesting foreign domination). All these things together ultimately yielded the sharply uneven development that caused civil conflicts which finally dissolved the country altogether. Basically, Titoism is patriotism. At least, however, Tito managed to lead an actual revolutionary war. (Juche is essentially a religious version of Titoism.)

Castroism is basically revolutionary social democracy. "Socialist" Cuba has never ruptured with heavy reliance on commodity production and the corresponding strong dependence on imperialist and other great-power nations.

Hoxhaism is the school of thought virtually all contemporary "Stalinists" belong to. It recognizes the need for continuing the revolution under socialism, but retains Stalin's mechanical approach to handling the contradictions of socialist society.

Maoism, particularly in its contemporary forms, is consistently revolutionary and internationalist. Maoism ruptures with mechanical and deterministic conceptions in favor of handling contradictions in a genuinely dialectical way (the mass line). Maoists support revolutions within the revolution, as well as the actual promotion of (not merely tolerance for) open debate and criticism.

Trotskyists, unlike all the aforementioned groupings, view the united front as a tactic, not a strategy for getting to communism. As such, they argue against a lasting unity with non-working class strata and contend that real socialism can only be achieved in a sustainable way in an individual nation if revolutions quickly take hold elsewhere to prop it up. This more sectarian conception of the dictatorship of the proletariat and comparatively limited view of revolutionary possibilities qualifies Trotskyism as "left" of Maoism because it is more opposed to deal-striking, more narrow in its definition of socialism, and, as a direct result, consistently less politically relevant. (Trotskyism is politically relevant nowhere in the world today.)

Ultra-Leftists, also known as "left communists" (an umbrella term for Luxemburgists, councilists, autonomists, situationists, De Leonists, Bordigists, and others likewise more nearly anarchist than Marxist), are defined by their complete opposition to communist leadership and united fronts. This directly results in extreme sectarianism and total political irrelevance. Far more often than not, ultra-left groups function as mere humanist debating societies that do no practical work whatsoever. Indeed, many of them even oppose political parties and trade unions in principle. This type of dogmatism positions them on the leftmost end of my spectrum.

...Okay, your turn! :D

mykittyhasaboner
25th September 2009, 21:06
Castroism is basically revolutionary social democracy.Social democracy as in the original meaning of Social democracy? I'm assuming so since you can't put 'revolutionary' in front of modern day "Social democracy".


the corresponding strong dependence on imperialist and other great-power nations.Cuba has been on virtually on its own since 1991.


Oh yeah, I think the left right spectrum is pretty obsolete and inaccurate, especially when comparing completely different countries.

Monkey Riding Dragon
25th September 2009, 21:51
Warning, warning, taking the exercise too seriously! (Not to mention failing to participate.)

Anyhow, to answer on social democracy, I was defining it in terms of basically just aiming at or just pursuing the creation of a welfare state. (Social democracy in the modern sense, that is.) Ordinarily social democracy isn't revolutionary, hence my qualification "revolutionary social democracy".

As to Cuba's being "alone", I would argue that they've developed a reliance on new great-power countries such as China and Venezuela. And to the extent they haven't, they face especially severe economic conditions because they heavily rely on producing sugar for export.

Now people...lighten up! This is supposed to be fun! AND PARTICIPATE IN THE EXERCISE! :D

LOLseph Stalin
25th September 2009, 21:54
(Trotskyism is politically relevant nowhere in the world today.)

Sadly, this is true...

Monkey Riding Dragon
25th September 2009, 21:55
Somebody participate in the exercise please...:( You're all being boring!

LOLseph Stalin
25th September 2009, 21:58
Somebody participate in the exercise please...:( You're all being boring!

Maybe we are boring? :p

☭World Views
25th September 2009, 22:24
Somebody participate in the exercise please...:( You're all being boring!

lol this thread is failing. If you do not succeed the first time, re-organize your experiment and try again. Anyways:

Ultra-Leftism<--Council Communism--Libertarian Marxism--Maoism--Marxist-Leninism--Castroism--Titoism--Post-Stalin Revisionism--Democratic Socialists--Juche--Wannabe Leftists-->Reactionary "Leftists"

Wannabe leftists are people that complain but do not even remotely make an effort to improve their lives or do anything to improve their condition. The people who reject the cultural goals of society(acquire as much monetary wealth as possible) but don't do anything and live life "going through the motions" of the capitalist framework. They can be made into real leftists.

Reactionary "leftists" are just that, reactionaries hiding under the guise of leftism and "representing the common man". See Obama for an example.


I think no one is responding to your exercise because it will probably just create more divides between different tendencies.

It's a shame I couldn't thank Apikoros for this reply she made to one of my chit chat threads, but here it is:


If you're genuinely looking to engage people on this forum about the validity of different methods and positions advocated by different sects/people within the revolutionary left, I'm not sure that starting a thread proclaiming "this, this, and this constitute reactionary leftism" is a productive avenue to achieving your goal. It just puts everyone on the defensive and will undoubtedly lead to the kind of sectarian shit-slinging that plagues the revolutionary left (as well as revleft.com) and makes it all the more difficult to genuinely engage diversions in opinion/strategy/theory.
A better approach, in my opinion, would be to post a thread asking for clarification of a specific position/strategy/theory that you disagree with from those members who hold that particular position/strategy/theory. This isn't to say we should all hold hands and sing songs, nor is it primarily an ethical disagreement I have with your methods. It is merely a matter of practicality because sectarianism tends to fester on this forum and place any prospect of genuine engagement regarding divergent theories amongst revolutionaries completely out of reach.

LOLseph Stalin
25th September 2009, 22:27
Ultra-Leftism<--Council Communism--Libertarian Marxism--Maoism--Marxist-Leninism--Castroism--Titoism--Post-Stalin Revisionism--Democratic Socialists--Juche--Wannabe Leftists-->Reactionary "Leftists"


Yours made me LOL. Wannabe leftists and Reactionary "Leftists". :laugh:

☭World Views
25th September 2009, 22:49
I hope I didn't offend anyone by saying Obama is not a leftist. I think that is the consensus within revleft membership.

Monkey Riding Dragon
26th September 2009, 00:32
You don't want to offend anyone? Clearly you have missed the point of this thread. :tt2:

(The real point is self-expression in a way that mocks the concept of graphing "leftness" and "rightness" as if they were objective things. The fact that I'm a Maoist was clearly revealed in my definitions and layout, just as the fact that Red Vocabulary creator's perspective of Trotskyism was clearly revealed in their definitions and spectrum layout. The point here is to prove the whole idea silly and have some fun doing it.)

(And yes, I definitely agree with your view on Obama, incidentally.)

Rusty Shackleford
26th September 2009, 02:31
ok here i go


Capitalism<- Stalinism--Social Democracy--Trotskyism--Leninism--Juche--Marxism--Maosim ->Left Communism

Jazzratt
26th September 2009, 02:34
I hope I didn't offend anyone by saying Obama is not a leftist. I think that is the consensus within revleft membership.

It's the consensus with anyone who knows anything about politics at all and in any way.

scarletghoul
26th September 2009, 02:52
What a great idea for a thread. Here is mine. In this, the rightist ones are the ones closest to bourgeois ideology, and the leftist ones furthest

Pol Potism(pppush it to the limit)<-------------------------------Ultra-Leftism<--Juche--Jamahiriya--Maoism--Leninism--Dengism--Left Communism--Anarchism-->Trotskyism

Rusty Shackleford
26th September 2009, 02:52
It's the consensus with anyone who knows anything about politics at all and in any way.

and that excludes 30-50% of americans

☭World Views
26th September 2009, 05:06
It's the consensus with anyone who knows anything about politics at all and in any way.

I was hinting at this, although I tried to make it subtle as to not get anyone annoyed like in the "Top 10 signs you might not be a revolutionary leftist" thread, which degenerated into sectarian jabs.

Comrade B
26th September 2009, 07:22
Communist<-Smurfism-Trotskyism--Maoism-Clefairy---Hoxhaism--Castroism--Leprachauns----Unicorns-Titoism--"Khrushchevism"-wizards-Eurocommunism-->Magical
each - represents a 3-2.7 ratio of communism to magic

Tyrlop
26th September 2009, 10:11
Social-Fascism = Cuba today

RHIZOMES
26th September 2009, 10:27
and that excludes 30-50% of americans

If only the percentage was that low.

revolution inaction
26th September 2009, 11:06
I hope I didn't offend anyone by saying Obama is not a leftist. I think that is the consensus within revleft membership.

if no one is offended by what you have to say then it probably wasn't worth saying.

Monkey Riding Dragon
26th September 2009, 12:34
I hereby award Vacant and Comrade B the coveted Mao Tsetung Trophy for the funniest submissions. And I hereby announce that I'm switching my alignment to Clefairyism. :D

In all...well half...seriousness, revisiting the point of this thread briefly, Marxism is a science. Suggesting that there's a left-right spectrum to Marxism is like proposing that there's left wing science and right wing science. In a science, the "spectrum" of conclusions ranges from right to wrong, not from left to right. Just thought I'd make that point. People like the creator of Red Vocabulary fail to grasp that.

Okay, serious moment over!

ckaihatsu
26th September 2009, 17:01
In all...well half...seriousness, revisiting the point of this thread briefly, Marxism is a science.




In a science, the "spectrum" of conclusions ranges from right to wrong, not from left to right.


(Grabs baton, prolongs serious moment)

Yeah, I think this topic works better as a *serious* discussion than as a joke -- we all know better anyway, since the political spectrum is determined by our respective, *objective* positions in regards to the means of mass production.

The more *leftward* we go the more we're *subjectively* conscious of our *objective* need for increasing collectivism in society, particularly over the industrial productive capacities that humanity has developed to-date.

Lesser degrees of leftwardness correspond to less-expansive visions of collectivization -- Stalinism and Maoism, while soundly anti-imperialist at first, limited their revolutions to *nationalist* objectives, and we all know the result of *those*....

Soft-left positions have some existing stake in the system as it is, so thus they're reformists at best....

There was a good recent thread that covered all this in terms of "changing a lightbulb" -- as a joke as well as a metaphor....


How many Revlefters does it take to change a lightbulb?

http://www.revleft.com/vb/many-revlefters-does-t116932/index.html


Here's a diagram I did that makes *some* sense of it all, attached....

[3] Ideologies & Operations -- Fundamentals


Chris


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ckaihatsu
26th September 2009, 20:18
I received this email notification in my Inbox, but I don't see the corresponding posting here at the thread.





Reply to thread 'Invent Your Own Left-Right Spectrum!'
1 message
RevLeft <[email protected]> Sat, Sep 26, 2009 at 1:56 PM
To: [email protected]
Dear ckaihatsu,

Red Dragon Rider has just replied to a thread you have subscribed to entitled - Invent Your Own Left-Right Spectrum! - in the Chit Chat forum of RevLeft.

This thread is located at:
http://www.revleft.com/vb/showthread.php?t=118390&goto=newpost

Here is the message that has just been posted:
***************

---Quote---
Yeah, I think this topic works better as a *serious* discussion than as a joke -- we all know better anyway, since the political spectrum is *_determined_ by* our respective, *objective* positions in regards to the means of mass production.
---End Quote---
The view you describe seems very deterministic and linear. Working class people are just automatically (spontaneously) collectivistic, middle forces automatically nationalist (spontaneous tendencies are set), and so on. There's not much room for actual dialectics in this formulation. Well, if that's the case, then why is there even a need for communist leadership?


If you're in denial of this objective yardstick -- that our societal existence is in relation to the means of mass production -- then I'm sorry for you, but that's just how it is. It's not "my view", and the linear configuration isn't a contrivance.

But neither is *consciousness* a fixed thing -- yes, much of our political consciousness *is* automatic, especially early on, but at some point we have to take our acquired knowledge into account and decide whether to live accordingly, given that knowledge.

Dialectics will come into the picture in the *practice* of politics, in actual situations. One example would be the need for a communist leadership, or vanguard, so as to generalize the working class' class conflict experiences from the past while making broad plans for winning victories in the future.

There's a recent thread on this:


Vanguardism

http://www.revleft.com/vb/vanguardism-t117736/index.html

Monkey Riding Dragon
26th September 2009, 23:55
I decided that my earlier response was too political for this forum and thread, so I deleted it.

Il Medico
27th September 2009, 15:27
Leftist<-Bourgeois Liberals-Centerist-Conservatives-Right Wing "Libertarians"-Nationalist->Fascist

Die Neue Zeit
18th October 2009, 04:28
DISCLAIMER: The subject of this thread is a joke, so don't take it too seriously. I wasn't actually sure what forum to post this in (it might be too political for this one; couldn't tell), but thinking it basically non-serious, I decided on this one. If it needs to be moved, then alright.

Anyhow, so I was randomly searching the web one day when I ran across this site called Red Vocabulary (http://reds.linefeed.org/vocab.html), the apparent goal of which was to provide brief definitions principally of various schools of "communist" and socialist thought from a blatantly Trotskyist point of view. I must concede to finding it entertaining.

[...]

Ultra-Leftists, also known as "left communists" (an umbrella term for Luxemburgists, councilists, autonomists, situationists, De Leonists, Bordigists, and others likewise more nearly anarchist than Marxist), are defined by their complete opposition to communist leadership and united fronts. This directly results in extreme sectarianism and total political irrelevance. Far more often than not, ultra-left groups function as mere humanist debating societies that do no practical work whatsoever. Indeed, many of them even oppose political parties and trade unions in principle. This type of dogmatism positions them on the leftmost end of my spectrum.

...Okay, your turn! :D

The Red Vocabulary on "Leninism" is somewhat inaccurate by including Trotsky. What "Leninism" occupies is merely the position of "left-Kautskyism," implying that Western European kautskianstvo is both Reform Communism and Democratic Socialism (explicitly reducing working-class political support to mere electoral support):

http://www.revleft.com/vb/left-kautskyian-theory-t110161/index.html

Modern Trotskyism, meanwhile, should be characterized as being to the right of and below "Left-Kautskyism." Programmatically, they emphasize economic agitation over the whole slogan "educate, agitate, organize" (a form of broad economism), while maintaining peer-pressurized sects. The only thing keeping it near "Left-Kautskyism" is its close relationship with the general strike as a strategy for power (Trotsky being to the left of modern Trotskyism).

Also, I think it's unfair to place council communism as being more right-wing than "left communism." The main question that divides "left communism" broadly is the party question. Bordigists, for example, are pro-party, so I'd place them to the left of Trotskyism but to the right of the anti-party council communism. I don't consider them to be real ultra-lefts.

DeLeonism and WSM-ism are odd tendencies, because they are merely a more left-wing form of Democratic Socialism, with dual emphasis on parliamentary party-building and programmatic maximalism (with the DeLeonists adding Socialist Industrial Unionism). I'd put DeLeonism and WSM-ism right above "Left-Kautskyism" and then to the left merely for their programmatic maximalism.

As for offshoots of "Left-Kautskyism," "neo-Kautskyism" (or the "Kautsky Revival," to quote Canadian historian Lars Lih) would be right above it. :cool:

Angry Young Man
18th October 2009, 16:37
What a great idea for a thread. Here is mine. In this, the rightist ones are the ones closest to bourgeois ideology, and the leftist ones furthest

Pol Potism(pppush it to the limit)<-------------------------------Ultra-Leftism<--Juche--Jamahiriya--Maoism--Leninism--Dengism--Left Communism--Anarchism-->Trotskyism

So Pol Pot who was propped up by the CIA and had no socialist goals is the extreme, Deng Xiaoping - who brought capitalism to China - is to the left of Left Communism, Juche - whose key advocates include Henry VIII - is second from the left and Trotsky, whose intention was to take the revolution global, is furthest right?

This is why Norfolk people are taken the piss out of

Il Medico
19th October 2009, 10:26
New left-right spectrum for the left.


Anarchism<--- Left Communism---Trotskyism---Maoism---Marxist-Leninist--->Juche

Bright Banana Beard
19th October 2009, 13:10
<Classic Anarchist - Anarcho-Syn - Anarcho-Com - Council Communist - Autnomous Marxist - Bordigist - DeLeonism - Leninism - Hoxhaism - Maoism - Trotskyism - Juche - Democratic Socialism>

Durruti's Ghost
19th October 2009, 16:51
For ideologies that self-identify as revolutionary leftist generally:

<Anarchism - Left Communism - DeLeonism - Trotskyism - Castroism - Maoism - Marxism-Leninism/Stalinism - Dengism - Juche>

For ideologies that self-identify as anarchist specifically:

<Anarchist Communism - Collectivist Anarchism - Mutualism --- Individualist Anarchism -------------------------------------- "Anarcho"-Capitalism>

Angry Young Man
19th October 2009, 20:22
Are followers of the DPRK called Juchebags?

Il Medico
19th October 2009, 23:55
Are followers of the DPRK called Juchebags?
They are now. :D

Angry Young Man
20th October 2009, 00:37
I wasn't only talking of the people who have Juche forced upon them. I was talkin about the crackpot dafties on here who support the DPRK

ckaihatsu
17th November 2009, 12:39
---

ZeroNowhere
17th November 2009, 14:34
People like me at the very least support the DPRK against imperialism (unlike pro-imperialist Trots).:cool:
Also pro-imperialist unicorns and neoconservative undines.

Panda Tse Tung
17th November 2009, 18:04
Panda Tse Tung < Kwl people like Maoists, Hoxhaists, Marcyists, etc... < less kwl people (u know who u are!) < revleft < ultra-Reactionaries.

Dr. Rosenpenis
17th November 2009, 19:53
Cuba has been totally independent of imperialist powers for the past fifty years, dude
maybe a bit less so in the past couple of decades with the joint ventures and shit
I would be very cautious in qualifying its dependence on the USSR as "strong"
after all, it's still standing as strong as ever

NecroCommie
17th December 2009, 18:43
Necromancy lvl24!!! :D

Rusty Shackleford
19th December 2009, 03:45
RevLeft<-PoFo-Punditkitchen-/b/->Stormfront.

Sendo
23rd December 2009, 02:58
I would be very cautious in qualifying [Cuba's] dependence on the USSR as "strong"
after all, it's still standing as strong as ever

It was strong. It spent the better part of the 90s working and busting its ass to become more self-sufficient.. The 1km diet that makes Cuba renowned among permaculturists is possible because of socialism, but it wasn't remotely as good when it was sucking the petroleum teets of Mother USSR.