The Hungarian Uprising

[Stranger Than Paradise]

I have just finished reading a book called The Hungarian Uprising, detailing the events of 1956. My analysis of this event would be that the uprising was a spontaneous worker-led revolt against soviet state capitalist doctrine. I would like to hear the views of those who defend the soviet union at this point in history.

[Panda Tse Tung]

This has been discussed in the history section extensively, you could search through it. Also: this should be in history ;).

[Stranger Than Paradise]

Thanks a lot, I will do that. I realised after posting it should have been in history.

[UlyssesTheRed]

I have just finished reading a book called The Hungarian Uprising, detailing the events of 1956. My analysis of this event would be that the uprising was a spontaneous worker-led revolt against soviet state capitalist doctrine. I would like to hear the views of those who defend the soviet union at this point in history.

I actually think the Hungarian Uprising is a wonderful example confirming the Ortho Trot stance on the deformed workers' states. It's a political revolution in action. And one where COPS (not the military, though they did as well) joined in and defended the uprising. The Stalinist regime is, of course, detestable for putting the revolt down. Anyone who thinks otherwise isn't much of a socialist... I'm looking at you, Marcyites.

[Yehuda Stern]

I actually think the Hungarian Uprising is a wonderful example confirming the Ortho Trot stance on the deformed workers' states. It's a political revolution in action. And one where COPS (not the military, though they did as well) joined in and defended the uprising.

Funny. The army of the most proletarian "deformed workers state" of them all had no qualms about putting down this workers uprising! I wonder how workers can be the ruling class of a state without being in control of the "bodies of armed men," which are, you know, the state.

[UlyssesTheRed]

Funny. The army of the most proletarian "deformed workers state" of them all had no qualms about putting down this workers uprising! I wonder how workers can be the ruling class of a state without being in control of the "bodies of armed men," which are, you know, the state.

Yeah, they brought in people who didn't speak the language and told them it was a fascist uprising. Just like in Germany '52 and Prague '68.

But, of course, you sidestep the issue of why so many cops joined the uprising. Because state capitalist "theory" (oddly "discovered" at a time of intense reaction) has no answers for such issues.

[Yehuda Stern]

Yeah, they brought in people who didn't speak the language and told them it was a fascist uprising.

They? You mean the generals of the army? The workers army? The people who are supposed to be in charge of the army protecting the interests of the working class?


But, of course, you sidestep the issue of why so many cops joined the uprising.

I'm not side stepping anything. The Hungarian uprising, apart from its proletarian element, also had in it an element of a struggle against national oppression by Soviet imperialism. Given that, it's no surprise that non-proletarian elements also joined in. I was pointing out that when the question was of workers versus the native bureaucracy, as in Poland in 1980-1 for example, the "proletarian army" did nothing to defend the interests of the workers and everything to defend those of the capitalist bureaucracy.


Because state capitalist "theory" (oddly "discovered" at a time of intense reaction)

Your snide remark betrays an ignorance of history - theories of state capitalism were "discovered" at different times from the 1920s to the 1970s. The deformed workers state theory, though, was "oddly discovered" at a time of Stalinist consolidation of power in Eastern Europe and adaptation to Stalinism and social-democracy by fake Trotskyists all over the world.


has no answers for such issues

Funny you should try to use that. In fact it is your theory that cannot explain, among other things:

1. Why the armed forces of the supposedly workers states never once defended the interests of the working class against those of the bureaucracy;
2. How these states could change from proletarian to bourgeois without any sort of counter-revolution, mostly leaving the old bureaucratic rulers in place.

[Revy]

But, of course, you sidestep the issue of why so many cops joined the uprising. Because state capitalist "theory" (oddly "discovered" at a time of intense reaction) has no answers for such issues.

"In particular, a free market and capitalism, both subject to state control, are now being permitted and are developing... (http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1921/dec/30.htm)" ~ Lenin, 1921

[Leo]

Here's an article on Hungary 56: http://en.internationalism.org/ir/127/hungary-1956


Because state capitalist "theory" (oddly "discovered" at a time of intense reaction)

The danger of state capitalism was highlighted as early as 1918: "We do not stand for the point of view of ‘construction of socialism under the direction of the trusts'. We stand for the point of view of the construction of the proletarian society by the class creativity of the workers themselves, not by ukases of ‘captains of industry'...We proceed from trust for the class instinct, to the active class initiative of the proletariat. It cannot be otherwise. If the proletariat does not know how to create the necessary prerequisites for socialist organisation of labour, no-one can do this for it and no-one can compel it to do this. The stick, if raised against the workers, will find itself in the hands of a social force which is either under the influence of another social class or is in the hands of the soviet power; then the soviet power will be forced to seek support against the proletariat from another class (e.g. the peasantry), and by this it will destroy itself as the dictatorship of the proletariat. Socialism and socialist organisation must be set up by the proletariat itself, or they will not be set up at all; something else will be set up - state capitalism." (‘On the Building of Socialism', Kommunist n°2, April 1918).