Communism may ruin your life

[monkeydust]

Hey chaps,

I thought I'd chime in because I haven't been here for a few years, and wanted to give some perspective from where I'm at.

I expect you were drawn in by the provocative title, and that you're itching to consign me to Opposing Ideologies already. That's understandable. All I ask is that you let me speak my peace, and then I'll leave you be.

I used to post here a lot several years ago, and I truly believed in what we were doing. I was never sure what the 'perfect' way of looking at the world was - whether it was communism, anarchism, Leninism, or something else. What I was clear on was that capitalism was bad. We had a lot of discussions about this, and a lot of very intelligent members. I remember Redstar2000 used to post a lot, and his eloquent and forcefully-argued posts were really compelling at the time. I learnt a lot, and it was fun doing so.

What I'm writing here to tell you now is that everything I used to believe was wrong.

You can argue for hours and hours about the moral or ethical superiority of leftist ideologies, and how they might be 'better' or 'nicer' than the alternatives we have. This is always a fairly moot point, however. When it comes down to it, communism - at least the kind I used to believe in - is a materialist philosophy, rooted in the interests of the majority of mankind. In other words, it posits not that the working class seeks communism because it is the 'right' thing to do per se, but that they see it as the right thing to do because it is in their interests to do so. In other words, Marxism is rooted in a conception of rivalling self-interests: the workers are oppressed and seek liberation; the bourgeoisie are reaping the benefits and therefore want to maintain the status quo. It follows that members of the working class seek a classless society because it is their best means of achieving liberation, and the happiness which that will entail.

Now I want to present to you an alternative way of looking at things, from a more individual point of view. I used to think, because I was relatively poor and wanted to change that, that I'd like to see some kind of classless society, an overthrowing of the rich and a levelling of the playing field. The nagging problem with this, though, was the likelihood of it actually happening. Some revolution may be possible, but did I really believe it was around the corner? If I were to assign a probability to it happening in the next 20-30 years, it would probably be quite low.

In contrast, it was perfectly possible - in my lifetime and yours - to better myself by working within the current system. You can get a good education, good skills, a good job, and benefit yourself and the people that matter to you.

If you were to look at it mathematically, you might be using the following formula: pB x pL = d

(Here pB = perceived benefit, pL = perceived likelihood, and d = desirability.)

Using this logic, from the standpoint of your self-interest it is a far better course of action to try and better yourself through the current system, because of the greater perceived likelihood of it remaining, and the greater perceived benefit from doing so (being in the top 5% wealth bracket makes you better off than if everyone were equal, for example).

If part of you revulses at the idea that you should think of your self-interest, then think again. Marxism is rooted in self-interest. Workers don't seek revolution because of ideas, but because it is what they perceive as best for them.

Now the reason why I chose such a provocative title is because, if many of you carry on the path you're going down, you stand a good chance of wrecking the hopes you have in life. Many of you are highly intelligent people. You could do well in your studies, get good grades, enter a good career, do well for yourselves. If you continue in your belief that it's all a bourgeois scam, this will not happen.

From my perspective now, I see a lot of leftists and idealists in their early- mid-20s. A lot of them are nice people. But they're all struggling to make ends meet. They'll be working in a supermarket, in a cafe, or somewhere like that. They're in dead-end, unstimulating jobs, their making no money, and they have no prospect of making any in future. There is nothing fun about being in poverty.

In contrast, the people who took a more business route are entering fun, stimulating, high-end jobs. They're also nice people. They're starting to buy their own properties, they're able to start a family, they're doing well for themselves. Most importantly, they have freedom to do what they want. The idealists think they have freedom, but actually do not.

Which side do you want to be on? You may be repelled at the idea of going into business, but that's probably because you have a lot of negative beliefs about the people there. The fact is: most people in these areas are not arseholes, they're not trying to fuck you over, they're decent people, and they're not part of any organized oppression. They're just doing what's best for them and those close to them. In contrast, a lot of leftists are good people, but - especially as they get older - have a big chip on their shoulder, and in my experience are often dogmatic and, to be honest, quite bitter. Which group do you want to be in?

All I'm saying is: don't pass up the chance to make something of your life. It's your life, not anybody else's. If you continue to believe that money is bad, that success is bad, that looking out for your own is bad, that capitalism is bad, then you will fail at life. Ain't nothing fun about that.


Peace,
MonkeyD

[RedAnarchist]

Hi and welcome back.

I'm going to move this to Politics, as I think that might be a better place for this thread (although other moderators may disagree).

[Holden Caulfield]

As a first generation university student whom everybody i know and love is of the working class, I can safely say I can't wait to repay my parents, grandparents, friends, girlfriends, and the rest of society by bettering myself and leaving them to go down the shitter.

You think me getting rich will make my parents lives better? My father faces redundancy on an almost annual basis and have a huge black hole in his pension. My mother can only work part time to look after my grandparents.

Obviously by getting to university I deserve to have better than everybody else, to live of parasitic wealth, and to distance myself from my roots.

thanks comrade, you have enlightened me.

[Qayin]

If you continue to believe that money is bad, that success is bad, that looking out for your own is bad, that capitalism is bad, then you will fail at life.

Cool story bro

[monkeydust]

As a first generation university student whom everybody i know and love is of the working class, I can safely say I can't wait to repay my parents, grandparents, friends, girlfriends, and the rest of society by bettering myself and leaving them to go down the shitter.

You think me getting rich will make my parents lives better? My father faces redundancy on an almost annual basis and have a huge black hole in his pension. My mother can only work part time to look after my grandparents.

Obviously by getting to university I deserve to have better than everybody else, to live of parasitic wealth, and to distance myself from my roots.

thanks comrade, you have enlightened me.

I think you're making false associations here. Doing the best for yourself doesn't mean leaving everyone else to go down the shitter. Making money does not equal being a parasite. And you know what, you actually could make your parents live better if that's what you chose to do with what you earned. I don't see what's hard about that to believe.

[KarlMarx1989]

Quite insightful, comrade. There are some things I disagree with you on, still; but you had some very good, valid points. Kudos.

[red cat]

Hey chaps,

I thought I'd chime in because I haven't been here for a few years, and wanted to give some perspective from where I'm at.

I expect you were drawn in by the provocative title, and that you're itching to consign me to Opposing Ideologies already. That's understandable. All I ask is that you let me speak my peace, and then I'll leave you be.

I used to post here a lot several years ago, and I truly believed in what we were doing. I was never sure what the 'perfect' way of looking at the world was - whether it was communism, anarchism, Leninism, or something else. What I was clear on was that capitalism was bad. We had a lot of discussions about this, and a lot of very intelligent members. I remember Redstar2000 used to post a lot, and his eloquent and forcefully-argued posts were really compelling at the time. I learnt a lot, and it was fun doing so.

What I'm writing here to tell you now is that everything I used to believe was wrong.

You can argue for hours and hours about the moral or ethical superiority of leftist ideologies, and how they might be 'better' or 'nicer' than the alternatives we have. This is always a fairly moot point, however. When it comes down to it, communism - at least the kind I used to believe in - is a materialist philosophy, rooted in the interests of the majority of mankind. In other words, it posits not that the working class seeks communism because it is the 'right' thing to do per se, but that they see it as the right thing to do because it is in their interests to do so. In other words, Marxism is rooted in a conception of rivalling self-interests: the workers are oppressed and seek liberation; the bourgeoisie are reaping the benefits and therefore want to maintain the status quo. It follows that members of the working class seek a classless society because it is their best means of achieving liberation, and the happiness which that will entail.

Now I want to present to you an alternative way of looking at things, from a more individual point of view. I used to think, because I was relatively poor and wanted to change that, that I'd like to see some kind of classless society, an overthrowing of the rich and a levelling of the playing field. The nagging problem with this, though, was the likelihood of it actually happening. Some revolution may be possible, but did I really believe it was around the corner? If I were to assign a probability to it happening in the next 20-30 years, it would probably be quite low.

In contrast, it was perfectly possible - in my lifetime and yours - to better myself by working within the current system. You can get a good education, good skills, a good job, and benefit yourself and the people that matter to you.

If you were to look at it mathematically, you might be using the following formula: pB x pL = d

(Here pB = perceived benefit, pL = perceived likelihood, and d = desirability.)

Using this logic, from the standpoint of your self-interest it is a far better course of action to try and better yourself through the current system, because of the greater perceived likelihood of it remaining, and the greater perceived benefit from doing so (being in the top 5% wealth bracket makes you better off than if everyone were equal, for example).

If part of you revulses at the idea that you should think of your self-interest, then think again. Marxism is rooted in self-interest. Workers don't seek revolution because of ideas, but because it is what they perceive as best for them.

Now the reason why I chose such a provocative title is because, if many of you carry on the path you're going down, you stand a good chance of wrecking the hopes you have in life. Many of you are highly intelligent people. You could do well in your studies, get good grades, enter a good career, do well for yourselves. If you continue in your belief that it's all a bourgeois scam, this will not happen.

From my perspective now, I see a lot of leftists and idealists in their early- mid-20s. A lot of them are nice people. But they're all struggling to make ends meet. They'll be working in a supermarket, in a cafe, or somewhere like that. They're in dead-end, unstimulating jobs, their making no money, and they have no prospect of making any in future. There is nothing fun about being in poverty.

In contrast, the people who took a more business route are entering fun, stimulating, high-end jobs. They're also nice people. They're starting to buy their own properties, they're able to start a family, they're doing well for themselves. Most importantly, they have freedom to do what they want. The idealists think they have freedom, but actually do not.

Which side do you want to be on? You may be repelled at the idea of going into business, but that's probably because you have a lot of negative beliefs about the people there. The fact is: most people in these areas are not arseholes, they're not trying to fuck you over, they're decent people, and they're not part of any organized oppression. They're just doing what's best for them and those close to them. In contrast, a lot of leftists are good people, but - especially as they get older - have a big chip on their shoulder, and in my experience are often dogmatic and, to be honest, quite bitter. Which group do you want to be in?

All I'm saying is: don't pass up the chance to make something of your life. It's your life, not anybody else's. If you continue to believe that money is bad, that success is bad, that looking out for your own is bad, that capitalism is bad, then you will fail at life. Ain't nothing fun about that.


Peace,
MonkeyD

Hearty congratulations! You have seen light at last.

[Holden Caulfield]

I think you're making false associations here. Doing the best for yourself doesn't mean leaving everyone else to go down the shitter. Making money does not equal being a parasite. And you know what, you actually could make your parents live better if that's what you chose to do with what you earned. I don't see what's hard about that to believe.

You say I will have to make enough to improve the living standards of my entire family, and everybody I care about?

[ZeroNowhere]

Heh. This reminds me of these guys (http://metal-archives.com/band.php?id=1149).

[Manifesto]

So basically what you wrote is do not be a bum that relies on the Revolution?

[KarlMarx1989]

I can kind of meet monkeydust halfway on this. I think that we should still prepare for revolution but for future generations, while still following the rules; just keeping it mostly private between your comrades and children. We should impart our knowledge about the revolution to our children and to comrades so that it may flourish in the future.

[ComradeOm]

Which side do you want to be on? You may be repelled at the idea of going into business, but that's probably because you have a lot of negative beliefs about the people there. The fact is: most people in these areas are not arseholes, they're not trying to fuck you over, they're decent people, and they're not part of any organized oppression. They're just doing what's best for them and those close to themAnd here we come to the crux of the matter - since when is what's good for the boss good for me?

For those of us who haven't reached that sanctified boardroom, the reality is that the interests of the bosses are diametrically opposed to those of the workers. "What's best for them" does in fact involve fucking me over. But hey, maybe that's okay that I got laid off if it benefits them and maybe I'm just being bitter about the whole thing?

Your argument might well hold true if you do go into business and you do get into bed with the exploiters. But then parasites always have an easy ride


I'm going to move this to Politics, as I think that might be a better place for this thread (although other moderators may disagree).You think that Politics is the place for a thread that openly advocates capitalism?

[RedAnarchist]

You think that Politics is the place for a thread that openly advocates capitalism?

It's better than Chit Chat. I'll move it to OI.

[monkeydust]

So basically what you wrote is do not be a bum that relies on the Revolution?

Well, yes and no. What I'm arguing is that from a Marxist, philosophically materialist, self-interested perspective, it may be a better course of action to seek to better yourself through the existing system than to overthrow it. It's not a moral argument, but a pragmatic one, and especially applies to those on this board who are in school and have a shot at getting to a good university/college.

But in answer to your specific question, I do think that relying on revolution, and in doing so passing up opportunities which may come your way, is a risky life choice if revolution does not happen. Redstar2k, the best poster here in history in my view, led that kind of life. Great guy, but was always struggling and always poor, and for him the revolution never came. He used to smoke cigarettes constantly and considered health warnings to be "bourgeois propaganda". He had a stroke in his early sixties.

[BobKKKindle$]

The reason I don't buy the whole "oh you can start your own business, or go to university and get a decent middle-class job" argument is that this solution is only open to a relatively small proportion of the people who come from working-class backgrounds, simply because of the way capitalism works. You can't have a capitalist society where every single person either has their own business or has a stable job with high wages. In order to make the system function you will always need to have a large group of people who have nothing to sell but their labour power and are therefore willing to perform a boring job each day for wages that are set by the boss - with all of the insecurity and hardship that flows from that situation. Cohen wrote an essay on this issue once and he came up with an analogy that I thought was quite fitting at the time - capitalism is like a situation where a load of people have been locked into a room and only a few of them are allowed to escape. What you get is people fighting amongst themselves desperately trying to get through the door, doing everything they can even if it means suppressing their instincts and being cruel towards other people whom they would normally respect, and at the end most people don't get to escape, they have to stay in the room, having been injured whilst trying to get out. If you've managed to pull yourself into the middle class then that's great for you, my parents did the same thing, both of them being from working class backgrounds, but what about the people who aren't in that position? The people who weren't lucky enough to go off to university or whatever, maybe the people who really wanted to go to university and were smart enough but just didn't have the money to pay- what do they do? If we want to abolish suffering for everyone and not just a few lucky individuals then we need to look beyond individual solutions, beyond the confines of capitalism, towards systemic change, and that means revolution.

[scarletghoul]

The OP's assumption is that its in my self-interest to do my best and perform well academically and get some well paying business job or whatever. This isnt true because i cant stand boring shit like that, it means nothing to me and is impossible to concentrate on.

I can only stand working with things that interest me, and that is art and revolution. So being a communist serves my self-interest pretty well. Gives me something to do, you know?

[monkeydust]

In answer to a couple of other points...

Holden Caulfield wrote

You say I will have to make enough to improve the living standards of my entire family, and everybody I care about?

Perhaps not everybody you care about, but you could certainly make a difference. I don't think it's an either/or situation - it's a matter of degree. For example, you could take your university situation, do an internship while you're there, join a decent company on a management/grad scheme, and make quite a bit of money. You might not be Bill Gates, but you might be able to help your parents when they're in old age, or one of your friends if they fell ill and needed private health treatment fast. The choice of how to help would be yours, but you'd have that freedom, as opposed to struggling just to get by.

ComradeOm wrote

Your argument might well hold true if you do go into business and you do get into bed with the exploiters. But then parasites always have an easy ride

Again, I think in today's workplace it's a matter of degree - not the binary worker/bourgeois framework Marx talked about. You don't have to be in the boardroom to be earning good money, you just need to be in a decent job - not a supermarket till worker, for example.

I also think the parasite metaphor is a misleading one. Since we're not in a zero sum economy, many companies are in the business of wealth creation - i.e. work that increases GDP. They might be taking a big slice of the pie, but they're making the pie bigger at the same time.

[monkeydust]

A few more points, then I'm heading out and will be back on later:

BobKKKindle$ wrote

The reason I don't buy the whole "oh you can start your own business, or go to university and get a decent middle-class job" argument is that this solution is only open to a relatively small proportion of the people who come from working-class backgrounds, simply because of the way capitalism works. You can't have a capitalist society where every single person either has their own business or has a stable job with high wages...

If you've managed to pull yourself into the middle class then that's great for you, my parents did the same thing, both of them being from working class backgrounds, but what about the people who aren't in that position? The people who weren't lucky enough to go off to university or whatever, maybe the people who really wanted to go to university and were smart enough but just didn't have the money to pay- what do they do? If we want to abolish suffering for everyone and not just a few lucky individuals then we need to look beyond individual solutions, beyond the confines of capitalism, towards systemic change, and that means revolution.I think it's true that capitalism doesn't work for everyone, and that you will always have a large chunk of society on relatively low incomes compared to the rich.

The only question I'm asking is: which group do you want to be in? I appreciate that some people on this board genuinely don't have the opportunities in front of them to enter the upper-middle class. I know a lot of people here do, however: there are very intelligent people, who can get good grades, and can have a shot at life.

From a Marxist, materialist, self-interest perspective, you have to ask: why should they pass up that chance? If you want to be a communist for moral reasons, that's fine. But if you're doing it because you want a better life, you've got to ask yourself whether there's a much more likely way to get a better life in the current society we're in.

ScarletGhoul wrote

The OP's assumption is that its in my self-interest to do my best and perform well academically and get some well paying business job or whatever. This isnt true because i cant stand boring shit like that, it means nothing to me and is impossible to concentrate on.That may be true for you, but I can tell you for a fact that for a lot of people what's boring as shit is working in a dead-end job, and what's fun is working in a high-end, varied job, getting to travel the world, and getting a paycheck that lets you have great freedom with your spare time.

[MilitantAnarchist]

Nah, i respect what the guy has to say (i know he isn’t here for long, i gave him thanks so people can see i agree)... I've spent most of my life being skint, and still am, i've turned down job opportunities that could of made my life much better because i had 'beliefs' (which I still stick by in 9 out of 10 cases by the way).
Being working class doesn’t mean you have to be poor or stay poor. People want to live in some kind of adequate luxury, because it is natural to want to not have to struggle in life. The working class people should want to prosper, it isn’t a capitalist con, BUT capitalism does use the ’hunger for more’ to capitalise, which is the main issue with it, but shooting ourselves in the foot for not good reason does our cause more harm then good.
There is only one person who is gonna look your for you, or me or whoever, and thats yourself... Unity is great, and we can make certain changes to make all our lives better... but as for the revolution, its never coming.

[Demogorgon]

And why does holding to Communist views prevent you from getting a decent education? Your argument is based on a silly premise.

As for the notion you should start your own business, well this is just the silly myth that is perpetuated to make people identify with the interests of their exploiters rather than their own interests. It is nothing more than economic Stockholm Syndrome. People often wonder why lower income groups so often identify with right wing politics. The reason being they dream of being better off and so go for policies that they think will benefit them when they are better off, all the while missing the fact that these same policies are preventing them from advancing in the first place!

Besides at any rate, telling people just now to try and start up a business is the height of stupidity. Even if you are from a privileged background and have access to the necessary means to do so, the current economic climate is hardly conducive to it, is it?

[Bud Struggle]

The reason I don't buy the whole "oh you can start your own business, or go to university and get a decent middle-class job" argument is that this solution is only open to a relatively small proportion of the people who come from working-class backgrounds, simply because of the way capitalism works. That MAY be true and assuming that it is--how does that apply to you? (Assuming for a moment that you are from a working class background) you can whatever you are able to accomplish under Capitalism--if you are talented or smart or lucky. The fact that "others" aren't so smart or talented or lucky really isn't your concern. Now you can make it your concern if you so choose--but that is your individual lifestyle choice, just like going into business and doing well. But that choice against personal self advancement isn't really Communist at all if Communism is actualy about self interest.

[punisa]

I must say monkeydust, congratulations ! You have actually came out with a tangible proof for many of my theories over the years.
Majority of your comment is correct and I'm happy you took the time to pay a visit to the board and let us in on your ideological development.

Of course, you're not a sample, just an individual. But still, you spoke your mind honestly and I believe we can learn a lot on this.

On many occasions I criticized the leftist struggle for being pursued for all the wrong reasons, and you underlined them out for me.
First of all, many youngsters (like you've been a couple of years back) tend to put an equality sign between youth rebellion and socialist revolution.
As soon as the adolescence vigor runs dry, your revolutionary spark goes mild as well.

But the much more dangerous aspect you pointed out is that of the working class. Again, I agree with you.
Let's think back to what Marx said in the communist manifesto. Who are the Bourgeoisie? A class of serfs that worked for their landowners.
When the lords and counts took a fall, serfs rose up and parts of them became a ruling class.
What's gonna stop a part of the working class in becoming a new ruling class in socialism?
Observing the "failed" experiments like USSR and Yugoslavia, we can see that that is exactly what happened.

This leads to the "grande finale" of what I strongly agree with you monkeydust - a revolution carried out solely based upon improving personal conditions is NOT a revolution we need !
It could succeed, it could actually be carried out in less then 20 years from now. But it won't take on the elements of a revolution we always dreamed about.

Until we have a elaborate plan how to overthrow the history itself, we are million light years away from a final revolution.
The revolution can be carried, but not a socialist one. Many of us tend to forget what that "socialist" stands for.
Improvement of life quality for all - yes. But this should be at the bottom of imaginary top 10 tasks we need to make.

Said this, me mostly agreeing with you comes to an end. Let's get deeper into it.

First of all, either you did not "study" enough in years you've spent here at RevLeft or you consciously decided to "forget" about some facts.
- For instance, how can a child "slave worker" in 3rd world be able to get a college degree?
- How can one born into a poor family rise up except in a Hollywood fairy tale?
- money made is money taken. You must remember that. Each time you earn larger pay, someone somewhere will earn less.
Ofcourse, this is the way of the system we live in and we must obey the rules.

BUT, actually living in capitalism (what choice do we have?) is no excuse to abandon your ideas.
When I started to get interested in socialism I was not doing that great myself.
I was never guided into it, by a parent, a friend or whatever. I came to a point in life when I had to get some of the questions answered.

Why so much hate in the world and amongst people?
Why so many poor people? Why wars?
Why every good relationship, be it friend, family - ends up when money comes into play?
And a million more.

I graduated economy college, and I never found answers there. But I did find some reasons.
Philosophy led me to understand life a little bit better, but still not what I was looking for.
In the end I *discovered* socialism and Marxism. Then I thought all my questions have been answered. And guess what? I still do.

Since then I tried to learn as much as possible.
But it was never a handicap on my life. As I said before, we do live in capitalism. Living otherwise would be completely absurd and pointless.

One must look out for himself in any way possible and try to do as good as possible. As years have gone by, I advanced from proletariat to the pettie bourgeoisie. I had no capital, but had certain skills to use (PHP programming and similar).
Nowadays I stand very good in regards to finance, but when I take a deep look inside my personality and try to be as honest with myself as one can be - I don't see the change.
I'd still gave it all away, every damn possession I have, and be there in the front row to carry a red flag if the timing was right.

Money = security in capitalism. There is no good reason in not wanting (needing) that. But if that can bring you the peace of mind then the conclusion to your thread is a very simple one - you were never a Socialist (spelled with a capital S) in the first place.

It's not a religion, but I believe in something. I believe that the struggle for socialism is the most valuable action one can give in the span of their lifetime. I believe that should be the society where my children should live. Or perhaps my children's children. But not just mine, everyones.

But as you have experienced it on your own skin - political/economical/social ideology of this magnitude is a challenge. As you progress in life you evaluate it over and over again. Some will drop it down the drain for a more comfty life, some won't.
Your food on the table makes you happy, mine makes me think of those who have none.

I sincerely wish that every thinker on this board goes through the same process in life as you did. I hope everyone becomes financially successful and acquires a good life standard under capitalism. As this is the "great filter" which will eventually separate us Socialists from those who are not.

[Hiero]

Seriously, what are you talking about?

I don't know what you go this idea from when you were trying work about anarchism, communism or Leninism.

My belief in Communist theory is based on a specific analysis of society, which is heavily influenced by the working class movements.

My current goal is to complete my undergrad and start my honours next year, to maybe one day be paid to lecturer by completeling my phd.

I, and many Marxists I know never purposefully sabotaged our life for a theory.

Actually through learning Marx, it has given me an insight into possible acadamic life.

Sorry, but if you have fucked up in life because you choose to not take the advantages that came open to you, that is your problem, not belief in communism.

What you have done is replace self-interest, with the capitalist notion of self-interest as being anything that quantitatively adds to your life.

The ultimate goal in life is not to become bourgeoisie, the ultimate goal is defined by the individual, and I define it as becoming a lecturer and spending my life in my field of study.

I think you're very confused now, and were very confused when were reading about Communism.

Btw, what was your other name. I don't remember any Monkeydust.

[Dean]

All I'm saying is: don't pass up the chance to make something of your life. It's your life, not anybody else's. If you continue to believe that money is bad, that success is bad, that looking out for your own is bad, that capitalism is bad, then you will fail at life. Ain't nothing fun about that.


Peace,
MonkeyD

Wow, I didn't know communist ideology prevented me from doing what I wanted in life. This fucks everything up. Thanks, asshole, now I don't know what to do! :rolleyes:

[Dimentio]

Hey chaps,

I thought I'd chime in because I haven't been here for a few years, and wanted to give some perspective from where I'm at.

I expect you were drawn in by the provocative title, and that you're itching to consign me to Opposing Ideologies already. That's understandable. All I ask is that you let me speak my peace, and then I'll leave you be.

I used to post here a lot several years ago, and I truly believed in what we were doing. I was never sure what the 'perfect' way of looking at the world was - whether it was communism, anarchism, Leninism, or something else. What I was clear on was that capitalism was bad. We had a lot of discussions about this, and a lot of very intelligent members. I remember Redstar2000 used to post a lot, and his eloquent and forcefully-argued posts were really compelling at the time. I learnt a lot, and it was fun doing so.

What I'm writing here to tell you now is that everything I used to believe was wrong.

You can argue for hours and hours about the moral or ethical superiority of leftist ideologies, and how they might be 'better' or 'nicer' than the alternatives we have. This is always a fairly moot point, however. When it comes down to it, communism - at least the kind I used to believe in - is a materialist philosophy, rooted in the interests of the majority of mankind. In other words, it posits not that the working class seeks communism because it is the 'right' thing to do per se, but that they see it as the right thing to do because it is in their interests to do so. In other words, Marxism is rooted in a conception of rivalling self-interests: the workers are oppressed and seek liberation; the bourgeoisie are reaping the benefits and therefore want to maintain the status quo. It follows that members of the working class seek a classless society because it is their best means of achieving liberation, and the happiness which that will entail.

Now I want to present to you an alternative way of looking at things, from a more individual point of view. I used to think, because I was relatively poor and wanted to change that, that I'd like to see some kind of classless society, an overthrowing of the rich and a levelling of the playing field. The nagging problem with this, though, was the likelihood of it actually happening. Some revolution may be possible, but did I really believe it was around the corner? If I were to assign a probability to it happening in the next 20-30 years, it would probably be quite low.

In contrast, it was perfectly possible - in my lifetime and yours - to better myself by working within the current system. You can get a good education, good skills, a good job, and benefit yourself and the people that matter to you.

If you were to look at it mathematically, you might be using the following formula: pB x pL = d

(Here pB = perceived benefit, pL = perceived likelihood, and d = desirability.)

Using this logic, from the standpoint of your self-interest it is a far better course of action to try and better yourself through the current system, because of the greater perceived likelihood of it remaining, and the greater perceived benefit from doing so (being in the top 5% wealth bracket makes you better off than if everyone were equal, for example).

If part of you revulses at the idea that you should think of your self-interest, then think again. Marxism is rooted in self-interest. Workers don't seek revolution because of ideas, but because it is what they perceive as best for them.

Now the reason why I chose such a provocative title is because, if many of you carry on the path you're going down, you stand a good chance of wrecking the hopes you have in life. Many of you are highly intelligent people. You could do well in your studies, get good grades, enter a good career, do well for yourselves. If you continue in your belief that it's all a bourgeois scam, this will not happen.

From my perspective now, I see a lot of leftists and idealists in their early- mid-20s. A lot of them are nice people. But they're all struggling to make ends meet. They'll be working in a supermarket, in a cafe, or somewhere like that. They're in dead-end, unstimulating jobs, their making no money, and they have no prospect of making any in future. There is nothing fun about being in poverty.

In contrast, the people who took a more business route are entering fun, stimulating, high-end jobs. They're also nice people. They're starting to buy their own properties, they're able to start a family, they're doing well for themselves. Most importantly, they have freedom to do what they want. The idealists think they have freedom, but actually do not.

Which side do you want to be on? You may be repelled at the idea of going into business, but that's probably because you have a lot of negative beliefs about the people there. The fact is: most people in these areas are not arseholes, they're not trying to fuck you over, they're decent people, and they're not part of any organized oppression. They're just doing what's best for them and those close to them. In contrast, a lot of leftists are good people, but - especially as they get older - have a big chip on their shoulder, and in my experience are often dogmatic and, to be honest, quite bitter. Which group do you want to be in?

All I'm saying is: don't pass up the chance to make something of your life. It's your life, not anybody else's. If you continue to believe that money is bad, that success is bad, that looking out for your own is bad, that capitalism is bad, then you will fail at life. Ain't nothing fun about that.


Peace,
MonkeyD

Why would I like to become wealthy or successful? It doesn't matter at all, given that the current socioeconomic system will lead the world into a future of social collapse and squalor. I do not think 30 or 40 years into the futrue, but 100 years. My engagement in bringing about radical change is a testimony to a deep humanist conviction that we cannot have infinite growth in a limited place.

Besides, from an individualist perspective, not everyone is getting happier by owning an own home or having a high-income job and a family. I personally don't mind others trying to get a high status in society, but personally my happiness is not affected by whether I live in a mansion or a one-room apartment. I don't strive so much after material gains as to learn as much as possible for the sake of learning itself.

[AnthArmo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LR7dNntU5oI

[Ovi]

In other words, it posits not that the working class seeks communism because it is the 'right' thing to do per se, but that they see it as the right thing to do because it is in their interests to do so.

Of course it's in everyone's self interest. Anarchism for me is not a philosophy or something nice, it's the solution to the millions of people living in poverty, it's the solution to the millions dying of starvation each year and billions of people whose only role is to serve their masters.


Using this logic, from the standpoint of your self-interest it is a far better course of action to try and better yourself through the current system, because of the greater perceived likelihood of it remaining, and the greater perceived benefit from doing so (being in the top 5% wealth bracket makes you better off than if everyone were equal, for example).

Believe me, living in a perfectly equal communist society it's in my best self interest, no self sacrifice needed.


Now the reason why I chose such a provocative title is because, if many of you carry on the path you're going down, you stand a good chance of wrecking the hopes you have in life. Many of you are highly intelligent people. You could do well in your studies, get good grades, enter a good career, do well for yourselves. If you continue in your belief that it's all a bourgeois scam, this will not happen.

The only way my leftist belief affects me is in a positive way: my goal is to make a living out of what I can do best and love, not to make lots of money out of something I hate, not going with the consumerist crowd of ever greater needs, helping others when they are in need (not because I have to, but because I want to, I always did). In fact the left helped my not to stray away from what I am and become a selfish, greedy bastard, the kind of people I always hated.

[trivas7]

You highlight the outdated philosophical underpinnings of socialism: materialism and collectivism. Thanks for your insight, comrade.

[Muzk]

So, the whole point of the thread starter is that we should be sheep to the capitalist butchers, so they give us 'a life' ?

By the way, some of us are petit-bourgeoise, and HUMANS ARE NOT MACHINES. THEY ARE COMPLEX BEINGS, WHY CAN'T RICH PERSONS WAKE UP?

It is hard to see the answer in socialism, if in capitalism you're used to not asking questions

Are we men or are we sheep?


Gluttony and Greed are the evil on earth. And they are the system. And we will overthrow the system. Our duty as human beings, for the third world, for the poor, for the worker, for the prolet

Hope dies last

[monkeydust]

This is likely to be a pretty long collection of replies!

Demogorgon wrote

Besides at any rate, telling people just now to try and start up a business is the height of stupidity. Even if you are from a privileged background and have access to the necessary means to do so, the current economic climate is hardly conducive to it, is it?

To be fair, I don't think I made any mention in my post of starting a business. Doing so is, of course, a very high risk strategy (although the returns can be significant if the risk pays off). I'm talking more about low-risk, high-pay careers: medicine, law, IT, and so on.

@Punisa
Overall I think this was a very eloquent and well-argued post. I have a few responses to some of the general points you've made, which hopefully will clarify where I stand on these issues.

1. The point you made about 'failed' revolutions is a good one, and is actually something I factor into my thinking on this topic. When I talk about the 'low likelihood' of revolution, I'm not simply talking about the low probability of a revolution happening, but the low probability of a revolution happening with the outcome that most people here want. The chances of some revolution happening are greater than the chances of the *right* revolution happening. The likelihood of success is thus lower than you might first think: a lot can go wrong on the path from overthrowing society to creating something anew, as we've seen in the historical examples you've mentioned.

2. Regarding third world workers, I completely agree with you. There is very little hope of them getting a college degree and making a lot of money. This post is directed at the members of this board who do have such opportunities, however. There are many members here who are middle class, intelligent, and have a shot at this kind of path.

3. You wrote, "money made is money taken. You must remember that. Each time you earn larger pay, someone somewhere will earn less." Well it's not quite that simple, really. We do not live in a zero sum economy, and many businessmen actually increase the total GDP we have to play around with. This isn't just bits and pieces either: South Korea, to give one example, have multiplied their total GDP several times in real terms since the 1950s. Global GDP has more than doubled in the same period. So I don't think it's as simple as "one dollar you earn is one less that someone else earns". That may be true if you're talking about landlords, or rent-collectors, but it isn't true for the broder economy.

4. I completely accept that you believe in socialism, and I have no problem with that. If you're passionate about it, great! My post was directed to people who sought it in a materialist sense, because they want to better themselves by overthrowing their overlords. On the basis of that logic, I think the alternative of making your way in capitalism may be better for them. Great post, though, and thanks for your contribution.

@Hiero
Again, a few points to make here:

1. On your personal ambitions, I think it's a fair point you make. I do think, however, that you'd be hard-pressed to find many other decent jobs you can take on that basis. Becoming an academic, yes, you can do that while being a Marxist, and in fact I've met a number of such lecturers. Most other graduate careers, however, will be passed up by communists because they regard them with contempt. The only other area of work that comes to mind is NGOs.

2. With regard to your friends, I accept that and I also know many Marxists who are doing OK for themselves. However, I also know many who are in dead-end jobs and aren't happy about it. Their bitterness seems to prop up their ideological convictions.

3. I don't really want to get into the more ad hominem points you made, suffice to say that I haven't messed up my own life thank you very much. :)

4. Finally, I do agree with the comment you made about the point of life being defined by the individual. I'm not saying that anyone should or should not enter business, and indeed if you want to continue doing things the way you are there's nothing wrong with that. What I am saying is that people should have a good think about their own values, and their own preconceptions, and see how realistic they're being about things. If they're someone who a) has a shot at life, university, and such, b) seeks communism for materialist reasons (i.e. hate the bourgeoisie want some of their bucks!), and c) is refusing to go into business because of certain beliefs they have (all businessmen are arseholes, I'm stealing the poor's money, and so on), then they should consider re-examining their course of action. The choices they make now could affect their entire life, after all.

Dimentio wrote

Why would I like to become wealthy or successful? It doesn't matter at all, given that the current socioeconomic system will lead the world into a future of social collapse and squalor. I do not think 30 or 40 years into the futrue, but 100 years. My engagement in bringing about radical change is a testimony to a deep humanist conviction that we cannot have infinite growth in a limited place.

Besides, from an individualist perspective, not everyone is getting happier by owning an own home or having a high-income job and a family. I personally don't mind others trying to get a high status in society, but personally my happiness is not affected by whether I live in a mansion or a one-room apartment. I don't strive so much after material gains as to learn as much as possible for the sake of learning itself.

I think your first point is an extremely wise one, and I do agree with you on that. Eventually the planet will "hit the rails" in terms of what it can sustain. The only questions are: when will that be, and where will you be when it happens? My approach is a bit like Pascal's wager: if I assume it's going to happen and it doesn't, I've wasted a lot of time worrying; if I assume it won't happen and it does, I'm at least not any worse off than before.

The second point I think is true, and that's an individual preference. I think you're perhaps being a bit romantic about things, though. There are some leftists who, when they get a bit older, really don't like being poor as shit! I know this because I know some of them. I also think there are some things which you may overlook now but may value in future: if you or someone in your family gets sick, for example, you'll be extremely grateful if you have the money to patch it all up.

@Ovi___1

Very refreshing post. You've thought about this a lot, and I respect where you stand and think it's a very consistent viewpoint.

[Kwisatz Haderach]

In contrast, it was perfectly possible - in my lifetime and yours - to better myself by working within the current system. You can get a good education, good skills, a good job, and benefit yourself and the people that matter to you.
Well, yeah, that's the plan. Just replace "benefit yourself and the people that matter to you" with "fight for communism."

You talk as if being a communist requires some sort of ascetic lifestyle. It does not. All you have to do is hide your political affiliation from your boss - and even that may not always be necessary.


If you were to look at it mathematically, you might be using the following formula: pB x pL = d

(Here pB = perceived benefit, pL = perceived likelihood, and d = desirability.)

Using this logic, from the standpoint of your self-interest it is a far better course of action to try and better yourself through the current system, because of the greater perceived likelihood of it remaining, and the greater perceived benefit from doing so (being in the top 5% wealth bracket makes you better off than if everyone were equal, for example).
Maybe. But I'm not looking out for my own self-interest. I wish to fight for the good of the working class, and of Humanity. I want my life to mean something, so that when I am old I can say that I lived for something worthwhile. If I looked out for my own interests alone, then I would be a waste of life.


If part of you revulses at the idea that you should think of your self-interest, then think again. Marxism is rooted in self-interest. Workers don't seek revolution because of ideas, but because it is what they perceive as best for them.
Workers as a class, yes. But that's because workers as a class have no other choice. I may get rich, you may get rich, but the working class as a whole is certainly not going to get rich. Communism is in the collective material interest of the working class, even if it may not be in the individual material interest of each particular worker.

[Kwisatz Haderach]

I'm talking more about low-risk, high-pay careers: medicine, law, IT, and so on.
How does that conflict with being a communist...?

[trivas7]

Are we men or are we sheep?

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_eosGkndaIFM/SafvVqOX3wI/AAAAAAAAHd0/D-cQWkp5_-M/s400/Devo-AreWeNotMen.jpg

Are We Not Men?

[Kronos]

Which side do you want to be on?

I'm sorry, but I have experienced fifteen years of unjustifiable bullshit in the field, which I have directly attributed to the conditions inherent to capitalism only.

I will always be a worker, and I will always defend the worker from the bourgeois. I don't care if he owns a coffee shop or a chain of department stores. He is unnecessary in the chain of production. Dead weight. A parasite.

Granted, I'm a bit of an all around misanthropist, since I hold many of the working class in contempt as well. Lazy weasels who couldn't perform even if they were paid five hundred dollars an hour.

My hope, or my experiment with humanity, rather, is that a significant change in socioeconomics will change the human being into something I can respect.

I feel like I am a citizen from a perfect society who was thrown into a time machine and sentenced to come back to your present and experience this primitive, confused culture. This is why both classes are driving me nuts. I shouldn't even be here man. You people are too simple.

[monkeydust]

@Kwisatz

You talk as if being a communist requires some sort of ascetic lifestyle. It does not. All you have to do is hide your political affiliation from your boss - and even that may not always be necessary.

I agree that it needn't mean that for everyone, but almost all communists I have known - and in fact leftists in general - have avoided going into high-paid work. They often say things like, "I don't want to be a suit", "I hate those greedy bastards", or "I don't want to become one of those bourgeois wankers". Words to that effect anyway!

@Kronos

I shouldn't even be here man. You people are too simple.

I mean this in the nicest possible way, but this post reads like the classic presentation of someone with a narcissistic personality type. I would wager that if you asked different questions, you might get different answers. You're asking why the world is lazier than you, why society isn't good enough for you, why people are too simple for you, and why managers are a dead weight bunch of parasites. It's not surprising you feel like shit man. :cool:

[Led Zeppelin]

I used to think, because I was relatively poor and wanted to change that, that I'd like to see some kind of classless society, an overthrowing of the rich and a levelling of the playing field. The nagging problem with this, though, was the likelihood of it actually happening. Some revolution may be possible, but did I really believe it was around the corner? If I were to assign a probability to it happening in the next 20-30 years, it would probably be quite low.

In contrast, it was perfectly possible - in my lifetime and yours - to better myself by working within the current system. You can get a good education, good skills, a good job, and benefit yourself and the people that matter to you.

So basically what you're saying is that when you called yourself a communist you were an anti-social douche and thought that was what communism was about.

Ok. That's cool.

[willdw79]

If people made choices as if life mirrors "game theory" then you would have a legitimate point. However, people are inherently social, that's what makes capitalism morally corrupt. This is what you wrote, silly guy:

"If you were to look at it mathematically, you might be using the following formula: pB x pL = d

(Here pB = perceived benefit, pL = perceived likelihood, and d = desirability.)

Using this logic, from the standpoint of your self-interest it is a far better course of action to try and better yourself through the current system, because of the greater perceived likelihood of it remaining, and the greater perceived benefit from doing so (being in the top 5% wealth bracket makes you better off than if everyone were equal, for example)."

This so-called has several assumptions built into its premises there are many, but one is that you assume that the "perceived benefit" means much in a material world that includes "definite" and real consequences. Separately, social mobility is not determined by how hard you try. Furthermore, people are social. When you say, it will be better for yourself, you are negating the fact that most people feel better when the other people around them are better.

Using your "so-called" logic is misleading to people who don't know the tricks built in to your bourgeois economic/social theories may be fooled on the surface, but most everybody knows that it is mindless blather.

[Ovi]

I'm sorry, but I have experienced fifteen years of unjustifiable bullshit in the field, which I have directly attributed to the conditions inherent to capitalism only.

I will always be a worker, and I will always defend the worker from the bourgeois. I don't care if he owns a coffee shop or a chain of department stores. He is unnecessary in the chain of production. Dead weight. A parasite.

Granted, I'm a bit of an all around misanthropist, since I hold many of the working class in contempt as well. Lazy weasels who couldn't perform even if they were paid five hundred dollars an hour.

My hope, or my experiment with humanity, rather, is that a significant change in socioeconomics will change the human being into something I can respect.

I feel like I am a citizen from a perfect society who was thrown into a time machine and sentenced to come back to your present and experience this primitive, confused culture. This is why both classes are driving me nuts. I shouldn't even be here man. You people are too simple.
All I can tell you is relax! If you ever think your life is shit, then I invite you to live in my country for a while. Get yourself a full time job as an industrial worker for 200$ a month and when you go back you'll love your job :D

[Havet]

I
I feel like I am a citizen from a perfect society who was thrown into a time machine and sentenced to come back to your present and experience this primitive, confused culture. This is why both classes are driving me nuts. I shouldn't even be here man. You people are too simple.

Well said

[Kronos]

It's not surprising you feel like shit man.Please. Would you one time.....let me be myself.....so I can shine.....with my own light.

[ repeat chorus ]

[Bud Struggle]

Please. Would you one time.....let me be myself.....so I can shine.....with my own light.

[ repeat chorus ]

Well played!

But only some us can shine.

You know that. :(

[Kwisatz Haderach]

@Kwisatz

I agree that it needn't mean that for everyone, but almost all communists I have known - and in fact leftists in general - have avoided going into high-paid work. They often say things like, "I don't want to be a suit", "I hate those greedy bastards", or "I don't want to become one of those bourgeois wankers". Words to that effect anyway!
Then the communists you have known were very misguided. Not every "suit" is part of the bourgeoisie.

Oh, and Lenin often wore a suit...

[eyedrop]

I agree that it needn't mean that for everyone, but almost all communists I have known - and in fact leftists in general - have avoided going into high-paid work. They often say things like, "I don't want to be a suit", "I hate those greedy bastards", or "I don't want to become one of those bourgeois wankers". Words to that effect anyway! It's quite funny that this stereotype of leftist are flourishing alongside a stereotype about all leftist being middle-class university students.

Leftist are "loosers" staying in shitty jobs while they are also pompeous students.

[Demogorgon]

It's quite funny that this stereotype of leftist are flourishing alongside a stereotype about all leftist being middle-class university students.

Leftist are "loosers" staying in shitty jobs while they are also pompeous students.
Yeah its up there with the claim that we are both bleeding heart hippies wanting everyone to get along and supporters of totalitarianism who want to oppress everyone by force.

[Bud Struggle]

Yeah its up there with the claim that we are both bleeding heart hippies wanting everyone to get along...

Well if I may brook a minor criticism, for all the talk here if enlightened self interest a lot of the debate by Communists on the board seem to be of the "it's unfair" to the Third World or to the poor or to whomever. I don't see a lot of discussion on how Communism will actually benefit ME.

FWIW, I'm here because I'm a bleeding heart Christian who thinks the present system is (somewhat) unfair--but I think that not out of self interest but because it is theoretically the "Christian" thing to do so I have nothing against bleeding hearts per se.

[bcbm]

. I don't see a lot of discussion on how Communism will actually benefit ME.

hows a big screen tv, a pool, a 15-20 hours work week and worker control of the means of production sound?

[eyedrop]

hows a big screen tv, a pool, a 15-20 hours work week and worker control of the means of production sound?

According to himself he is a medium sized rental-shark and a chemical factory owner. So it wouldn't necessary benefit him. How "western" workers would benefit is another thing.

[trivas7]

I feel like I am a citizen from a perfect society sho was thrown into a time machine and sentenced to come back to your present and experience this primitive, confused culture. This is why both classes are driving me nuts. I shouldn't even be here man. You people are too simple.
Well said
Only if you are swayed by grandiosity.

[Havet]

Only if you are swayed by grandiosity.

I'm not. I expect even more.

[danyboy27]

WELCOME in the OI monkey.

dont worry man, its a phase, i have been there too.

you can benefit to yourself and still believe in communism you know, money and power isnt bad, its what you do with it that really matter, go, be succesfull, do your best!

you can believe in communism without wasting your life. Personally i believe in communism not beccause of justice and equality but beccause it make sense, its more logical to work that way.

change are not likely to happen soon, so kick off your shoes, relax, and enjoy life has much has you can.

[Bud Struggle]

WELCOME in the OI monkey.



Monkey's been OIed? The second a RevlLefter starts talking sense--well don't take no nevermind Monkey, OI is the future of Communism--everyone at least agrees on that point. ;)

(In OI)
you can believe in communism without wasting your life Our man Dany said it all and no one could have said it better.

Welcome!

[monkeydust]

Monkey's been OIed?

Indeed. I fully expected this to happen, however. The policy on OI has always been completely misconceived. It should exist to stop people flaming, or borderline-flaming, on topics where leftists want to talk reasonably among themselves. In reality it ends up debarring anyone who isn't fully left wing from debating on matters of History, Politics, Current affairs and so on, where their input might be quite valuable. That's just the way things are, however.

[Bud Struggle]

Indeed. I fully expected this to happen, however. The policy on OI has always been completely misconceived. It should exist to stop people flaming, or borderline-flaming, on topics where leftists want to talk reasonably among themselves. In reality it ends up debarring anyone who isn't fully left wing from debating on matters of History, Politics, Current affairs and so on, where their input might be quite valuable. That's just the way things are, however.

Maybe that was then Monkey. Now the OI's the place to be. The beautiful people of RevLeft live here--not the "Stalin said--ists" or the folks that argue over the recipie of Lenin's embolmbing fluid or "Mao's hat tilted to the Left and how far." When we ever want a dose of all that we'll peak in to the the threads in the north--but what's there to contribute to threads on "Trotsky's hair: Brillcream or just dandruff buildup?"

These day's OI's the real Revolution. Join in Comrade!:hammersickle::star2::hammersickle:

[#FF0000]

Maybe that was then Monkey. Now the OI's the place to be. The beautiful people of RevLeft live here--not the "Stalin said--ists" or the folks that argue over the recipie of Lenin's embolmbing fluid or "Mao's hat tilted to the Left and how far."

You know the majority of Revleft is Left-Communist or Anarchist or Trotskyist so these comments of yours hardly apply.


"Trotsky's hair: Brillcream or just dandruff buildup?"

Better.

[danyboy27]

dont do communism mmmkay, beccause, its bad mmmkay.

mr.macky on communism

[Dimentio]

I think your first point is an extremely wise one, and I do agree with you on that. Eventually the planet will "hit the rails" in terms of what it can sustain. The only questions are: when will that be, and where will you be when it happens? My approach is a bit like Pascal's wager: if I assume it's going to happen and it doesn't, I've wasted a lot of time worrying; if I assume it won't happen and it does, I'm at least not any worse off than before.

The second point I think is true, and that's an individual preference. I think you're perhaps being a bit romantic about things, though. There are some leftists who, when they get a bit older, really don't like being poor as shit! I know this because I know some of them. I also think there are some things which you may overlook now but may value in future: if you or someone in your family gets sick, for example, you'll be extremely grateful if you have the money to patch it all up.


I do not agree with you. I am not worrying, I am actively trying to show people that there is an alternative, and I am ready to dedicate my life to it. Human survival and individualism is dependent on human beings affirming that we need to think about others in order to survive. A world with a collapsed eco-system is a world where people won't have time to be happy and do anything other than struggling to survive. Hence, in order for people do be able to do what they like for several generations, we need to transform our society.

Even if you prefer to only think for yourself (and perhaps your nearest kin), imagine how society would look like if everyone thought like that? When we decide to revolt against an unsustainable order, there are of course risks. But it is wiser to try to correct problems while they are redeemable, and not wait until they are unsolvable. Therefore, you should be grateful to those who are ready to sacrifice themselves in order to protest against obvious flaws in the current socio-economic system, even if their protests are in vain for the moment.

[Ele'ill]

Kind of creepy that I come across this thread as I was talking to someone about this not too long ago. (Yesterday)

I think the issue is that people on the left (and elsewhere) don't want to dump forty hours after forty hours into a job that isn't making anything better in the world around them, maybe making things worse, and still keeps them in a state of emotional poverty.

It does not have to do with money. I know a lot of people that if they could find a job or occupation where they could help people and the environment in trade for two small meals a day, shelter and basic medical they would do it in a heart beat.

What we need are more community centers that can help people become community organizers. I know there are college courses and majors and minors on the issue of organizing but there needs to be an easier way.

Imagine 'enlisting' and instead of being armed and trained to kill you're taken care of, trained to heal and given the tools needed to organize.

We need less communists, capitalists, anarchists, republicans and democrats and we need more human beings.

[Havet]

We need less communists, capitalists, anarchists, republicans and democrats and we need more human beings.

And how do you politically define a human being?

[Outinleftfield]

Monkeydust commits the false dichotomy fallacy.

Theres no reason I can't succeed in my own life without believing in capitalism and without giving up on socialism. There are many things a person can do to make money. I could be a professor, a doctor, a lawyer. That doesn't exploit anyone. In fact then I'm working for someone so I'm still being exploited, just not as much as your average worker. Or I could become self-employed and then I'm neither exploited or exploiting.

You are right about one thing. It is about self-interest. There is no such thing as objective morality. You say X is good because of Y then why is Y good? Because of Z? Why is Z good? It goes on forever until you hit personal preference. The reason is that morality is not phyiscal, it is not material. The only real morality is in our head, it is subjective and is informed by our own experiences.

But it is exactly this worship of mythical ideas like "objective morality" that makes capitalism and any other system of exploitation possible. People believe it would be objectively wrong to seize the means of production, it would be theft. The police and military believe that it is objectively moral that they obey their superiors and uphold "laws" decided by people who would have no power if it wasn't for them. If everybody realized that morality is entirely subjective capitalism would collapse.

In the end the whole subjectiveness of it means that sometimes it might be important to do things in the system to further your own self-interest, but that doesn't mean you should lose sight of what you want to achieve.

[revolt4thewin]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WePTBgi9rXs&feature=related
Free market economy 101.

[Radical]

I want to be successful. But what do you consider Success? Success to me isent about money or how many innocent people you are able to exploit. It's about what you do to help humanity, and how you act in the interests of the oppressed people.

Success based on money, living conditions and friendship is the mentally of the Capitalist. The definition of Success is different for every individual.

[*Red*Alert]

Why change to complete self-interest?

You can further you own empty life but why not use the system to achieve for others who are denied this right because they were "unlucky" enough to be born into a poor familiy with little or no prospects?

I'm a Leftist because I believe that my achievements aren't mine, they've been made at the expense of others, and I damn well owe it to those other people to do what I can to change their lives and change this rotten system for future generations.