Ian Bone on Jonathan Ross

[MilitantAnarchist]

Just found this clip of Class War's Ian Bone on the Jonathan Ross Show in 1992... fucking great clip, and shows how relevent and right Ian Bone was/is.
Also, it shows that in the 90's it was shit, but how much worse it is now... can you imagine an Anarchist like Ian Bone on the BBC today? It would never happen...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vciXxY5ADoA

[Pogue]

sound bloke, that ian bone

[MilitantAnarchist]

oh god yea, he totally held his own against the 'what about the coppers!' remarks, and got the support of the audience.... i love the "YOUR BROTHERS A GRASS!" bit lol

[Pogue]

he's sound in real life too, still active

[Sam_b]

How is this a worker struggle?

[MilitantAnarchist]

1. Class War is a Working Class struggle movement
and 2. I didnt know where else it would fit in

[Dr Mindbender]

How is this a worker struggle?

its a struggle to sit through the Jonathan Ross show.

[brigadista]

jonathan ross - the milionnaire...

[BobKKKindle$]

1. Class War is a Working Class struggle movementIndeed, it's also an organization that decided to hold a bonfire event at which they erected a figure, supposedly representing Prophet Muhammad, with a hooked nose - basically playing on a crass and offensive stereotype of people from the Middle East. I've got respect for anyone who's involved on the left even when I don't agree with everything they say and do but this event represents the dangers of trying to get a positive reaction by any means possible, as it can easily lead leftists to condone the most widespread prejudices, instead of criticizing them as reactionary and divisive.

[Hit The North]

Moved to a more appropriate forum.

[MilitantAnarchist]

Indeed, it's also an organization that decided to hold a bonfire event at which they erected a figure, supposedly representing Prophet Muhammad, with a hooked nose - basically playing on a crass and offensive stereotype of people from the Middle East. I've got respect for anyone who's involved on the left even when I don't agree with everything they say and do but this event represents the dangers of trying to get a positive reaction by any means possible, as it can easily lead leftists to condone the most widespread prejudices, instead of criticizing them as reactionary and divisive.

I'm fairly sure that that's a false rumour to go with the MUSLISMS! BASTARDS sticker which is definatly false... If it was true, I dont see a MAJOR problem with burning an effigy of muhammed because it isnt racist, its anti-religion.
If someone burned an effigy of Jesus not one person on this forum would complain... The point of being anti-fascist (in my oppinion) is to fight fascism and want to treat everyone as equal, not patronise other races by saying 'oh no dont do that, someone might be offended'.

[Holden Caulfield]

class war burned Jesus and Mohammed

[MilitantAnarchist]

class war burned Jesus and Mohammed


good...
my point proven though, BobKKK didnt mention jesus being burned... maybe its the stereo type that is offensive, but no one can accuse Class War of being racist....
I did post the video for any other reason then i couldnt believe that Ian Bone could ever get on Jonathon Ross

[Killfacer]

sound bloke :glare:

[BobKKKindle$]

I'm fairly sure that that's a false rumour to go with the MUSLISMS! BASTARDS sticker which is definatly false... If it was true, I dont see a MAJOR problem with burning an effigy of muhammed because it isnt racist, its anti-religion.Firstly, it wasn't "just" Muhammad, it was a model of Muhammad with a grossly distorted nose. Even if it was a normal model of Muhammad without the physical distortions, I reject your assertion that it would be totally unproblematic and just a way of expressing opposition to religion. The fact is that we live in a society that exhibits rising levels of Islamophobia, both in terms of popular sentiment, i.e. the tendency to view it as a religion that has an inherent and exclusive tendency to encourage extremism, and the policies that governments have adopted in relation to the Muslim community, using the war on terror as a justification. It is also significant that in almost all of the areas where the BNP have scored electoral victories or have otherwise strengthened their presence, physical attacks on Muslims have followed.

In this context, not only should socialists not be legitimizing Islamophobia by going out of our way to offend and mock a community that already feels under attack from the rest of society, we should be doing everything we can to fight it, which means opposing our governments when they try and restrict the construction of mosques, coming to the defense of Muslims when they are falsely accused of instigating or planning terrorist attacks, and, most importantly of all, combating any attempt to undermine the right of Muslim women to wear the Hijab and other religious garments if they so desire, and so on - even if such measures are justified by some sections of the left as being progressive on the grounds that they damage religion and (so the argument goes, in the case of the Hijab) liberate women from the oppression of their male relatives. For this reason, I feel it's far too simplistic to say that burning a model of Jesus is the same as a model of Muhammad, because that line of argument abstracts what Class War did from the cultural and political context in which we live, in the same way that saying Israel and Hamas are just as bad as one another simply because they both use weapons and kill people abstracts from the actual conditions and inequalities that exist in Palestine today.

On top of all of that, Class War's actions suggest that there is such a thing as an essential form of Christianity and Islam, i.e. a set of ideas and beliefs that we can designate either one of those religions, whereas a Marxist understanding of religion and ideology informs us that ideas are the product of the conditions in which people live, and so, even if two people both describe themselves as Muslims, it is possible for them to have very different ways of looking at the world, and understandings of the text from which their beliefs are derived, i.e. the Koran, resulting in different behavior. Class War would have us believe that it is possible to attack this thing called "Islam", and yet, viewed from a materialist position, there is no such thing as "Islam", because there is no way of determining why the ideas that one Muslim upholds are more or less authentic than those of one of his coreligionists, the same being true of all other religions.

[BobKKKindle$]

Incidentally, I know that the text is added to make a point, but this is, I believe, a picture of the effigy, and the hooked nose is visible. This is basically the equivalent of making a model of a Chinese person with grotesquely slanted eyes, or a Jewish person with an enormous nose:

http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/4138/muslimshu6.jpg

As I said in my last post, though, that's not the main point here - it would be just as problematic if there was nothing physically wrong with the effigy.

[scarletghoul]

It is stupid when leftists put so much effort into criticising muslims, as it only serves to increase the prejudice and hatred against what is already an oppressed group.

You gotta assess the contradictions see. The contradictions of bourgeoisie against proletariat, or imperialism against resistence, these are vastly more important. Capitalism and Imperialism are much more oppressive to us than islam is, and the muslims are one of the most opressed groups, so it's completely stupid and ridiculous for these leftists to concentrate on anti-islamic activism. Its not only contributing to hatred and prejudice, its also a waste of time and effort. And disgustingly racist in the above instance

[Devrim]

Incidentally, I know that the text is added to make a point, but this is, I believe, a picture of the effigy, and the hooked nose is visible. This is basically the equivalent of making a model of a Chinese person with grotesquely slanted eyes, or a Jewish person with an enormous nose:

http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/4138/muslimshu6.jpg



I don't want to accuse Bob of being dishonest here, but he certainly could have been clearer about the image he used. This is a picture of the effigy but this picture with the wording wasn't produced by Class War, but by somebody satirizing them on libcom.

There was a libcom thread on it at the time where most of the anarchist posters there condemned this. It is a bit long, but gets a bit better new the end.

http://libcom.org/forums/thought/class-war-bonfire-party

Devrim

[BobKKKindle$]

This is a picture of the effigy but this picture with the wording wasn't produced by Class War, but by somebody satirizing them on libcom.

I know, that's why, in my last post, I wrote "I know that the text is added to make a point, but...". Sorry if that was unclear.

[Trystan]

Firstly, it wasn't "just" Muhammad, it was a model of Muhammad with a grossly distorted nose. Even if it was a normal model of Muhammad without the physical distortions, I reject your assertion that it would be totally unproblematic and just a way of expressing opposition to religion. The fact is that we live in a society that exhibits rising levels of Islamophobia, both in terms of popular sentiment, i.e. the tendency to view it as a religion that has an inherent and exclusive tendency to encourage extremism, and the policies that governments have adopted in relation to the Muslim community, using the war on terror as a justification. It is also significant that in almost all of the areas where the BNP have scored electoral victories or have otherwise strengthened their presence, physical attacks on Muslims have followed.

In this context, not only should socialists not be legitimizing Islamophobia by going out of our way to offend and mock a community that already feels under attack from the rest of society, we should be doing everything we can to fight it, which means opposing our governments when they try and restrict the construction of mosques, coming to the defense of Muslims when they are falsely accused of instigating or planning terrorist attacks, and, most importantly of all, combating any attempt to undermine the right of Muslim women to wear the Hijab and other religious garments if they so desire, and so on - even if such measures are justified by some sections of the left as being progressive on the grounds that they damage religion and (so the argument goes, in the case of the Hijab) liberate women from the oppression of their male relatives. For this reason, I feel it's far too simplistic to say that burning a model of Jesus is the same as a model of Muhammad, because that line of argument abstracts what Class War did from the cultural and political context in which we live, in the same way that saying Israel and Hamas are just as bad as one another simply because they both use weapons and kill people abstracts from the actual conditions and inequalities that exist in Palestine today.

On top of all of that, Class War's actions suggest that there is such a thing as an essential form of Christianity and Islam, i.e. a set of ideas and beliefs that we can designate either one of those religions, whereas a Marxist understanding of religion and ideology informs us that ideas are the product of the conditions in which people live, and so, even if two people both describe themselves as Muslims, it is possible for them to have very different ways of looking at the world, and understandings of the text from which their beliefs are derived, i.e. the Koran, resulting in different behavior. Class War would have us believe that it is possible to attack this thing called "Islam", and yet, viewed from a materialist position, there is no such thing as "Islam", because there is no way of determining why the ideas that one Muslim upholds are more or less authentic than those of one of his coreligionists, the same being true of all other religions.

Islam - as expressed in the Koran - is bollocks and reactionary as hell. I defy you to show otherwise, and to give a reason why it shouldn't be said. I don't think that the hijab should be banned, but I'm sure there are good numbers of Muslim women who have no choice in whether they wear it or not. What you're effectively calling for will lead to more compromises with the Left between reactionary and oppressive ideas and practices. And we have already seen that with the StWC.









*Awaits knee-jerk accusations of Islamophobia*

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

sound bloke :glare:


Agreed . Jonathan Ross is a legend.

[MilitantAnarchist]

Firstly, it wasn't "just" Muhammad, it was a model of Muhammad with a grossly distorted nose. Even if it was a normal model of Muhammad without the physical distortions, I reject your assertion that it would be totally unproblematic and just a way of expressing opposition to religion. The fact is that we live in a society that exhibits rising levels of Islamophobia, both in terms of popular sentiment, i.e. the tendency to view it as a religion that has an inherent and exclusive tendency to encourage extremism, and the policies that governments have adopted in relation to the Muslim community, using the war on terror as a justification. It is also significant that in almost all of the areas where the BNP have scored electoral victories or have otherwise strengthened their presence, physical attacks on Muslims have followed.

So we patronise muslims then... We dont just have muslims in this country, we have sieks and hindus, but unfortunatly people like EDL and BNP dont see that, they just see a 'paki', which is unfortunate because it seems a lot of people here only see that to.

Also, I'm not a socialist... nor am i a communist, which you are? And sorry to assume, but do you look at people like Stalin, Pol Pot and Lenin as tossers or comrades? Because lets be honest, they aint squeeky clean liberals are they?....

You also have to understand, the Class War Bonfire is attened by hundreds of people who are told to bring their own effegys... If people brought the figure heads of religions, what do you expect people to do? Stop the whole thing so nobody gets offended?

And on top of that, it isnt exactly promoting Islamaphobia really is it? and what nationalist in there right mind would be would be at a Class War bonfire to be encouraged to be against islam by that?

I dont think the hijab should be banned, but the government in an attempt to be liberal ***** at people with crosses on to (granted not as much), but refering back to my Punk Discrimination thread ages ago, i got zero support many leftists here, and it got moved to 'chit chat' too, but it is someones choice to wear a hijab? It isnt about me, or discrimination by us, but it is obvious that you are being patronising and a typical fucking lefty, use your own mind and see that the only person that is pissed off by the class war thing is you.

[ls]

It is stupid when leftists put so much effort into criticising muslims, as it only serves to increase the prejudice and hatred against what is already an oppressed group.

You gotta assess the contradictions see. The contradictions of bourgeoisie against proletariat, or imperialism against resistence, these are vastly more important. Capitalism and Imperialism are much more oppressive to us than islam is, and the muslims are one of the most opressed groups, so it's completely stupid and ridiculous for these leftists to concentrate on anti-islamic activism. Its not only contributing to hatred and prejudice, its also a waste of time and effort. And disgustingly racist in the above instance

While I do agree that the above is an example of disgusting racism, without the wording or not, I think that criticising religions critically for what they have done to vast amounts of people is not in the least bit reactionary. If the action was a symbolic one of burning a bible, qur'an, tanakh etc then I wouldn't give a damn.

[BobKKKindle$]

Islam - as expressed in the Koran - is bollocks and reactionary as hell.Indeed, but it's impossible for anyone to live entirely in accordance with what it says in the Koran, most obviously because the Koran, like all religious texts, is internally contradictory, and, in many cases, ambiguous. This is the problem that many Anarchists face when it comes to their stance against religion and Islam in particular - they conceive of "religion" solely in terms of what a religious text says that people should do, without acknowledging that religious belief is a product of the material conditions in which people live, especially the alienation and lack of direction that people experience under capitalism and other forms of class society, with different sets of material conditions giving rise to divergent interpretations depending on the positions that individuals occupy within their communities and the social structure of capitalism. It should be clear from a brief look at historic peasant rebellions and as well as the recent history of Liberation Theology in Latin America that it is too simplistic to say that all religions are reactionary on the grounds that somewhere in the Bible or the Koran it says there is no problem with slavery and that men have the right to treat women as their property - people do not simply accept those ideas as given; rather they consciously or unconsciously interpret religious text in accordance with their own interests and experiences. Marx captured the dual character of religion (i.e. its role in giving expression to the anger of the oppressed, whilst also being used by the ruling class to justify oppression) perfectly when he said that religion is both the opiate of the masses and the sigh of the oppressed creature.


So we patronise muslims thenI don't think it's patronizing at all. You're right in saying that Class War aren't important in the grand scheme of things as, compared to organizations like the Labour Party, and even other groups on the left, they don't involve large numbers of people, or have a significant impact on the way that the working class looks at the world, but the fact remains that burning an effigy that plays on racist stereotypes of people from the Middle East and ignores the prevailing cultural and political context of Islamophobia shouldn't be tolerated. In saying that, I think I can claim the backing of many who see themselves as Anarchists, from what Devrim says.


If people brought the figure heads of religions, what do you expect people to do? Stop the whole thing so nobody gets offended?If someone brought something along that other people found offensive and prejudiced it would have been right to ask them to either get rid of it or take it elsewhere. That's the way most social events work, in my experience - you don't have an obligation to accept anyone and everyone who comes along and wants to attend, nor do you have to put up with everything they do. There have been loads of cases of socialists and other protesters chucking fascists off Palestine demonstrations before when they've come along with the aim of joining in and using those events to promote antisemitism.


Also, I'm not a socialist... nor am i a communist, which you are?

I am a Trotskyist, and have been for some time. If you are not a communist, then do you support the overthrow of capitalism, and what kind of society do you envisage?


but the government in an attempt to be liberal ***** at people with crosses on to (granted not as much)Sorry, I don't quite know what you mean here.


i got zero support many leftists here,I don't think that discrimination against Punks exists on the same level as Islamophobia, if that's what you mean. If I remember correctly, in your thread you were arguing that it was unfair that you shouldn't be given a job in a service industry solely on the grounds that you were wearing studs and all the other things that Punks use to show that they're part of that subculture. Now, call me a lackey of the bosses, or old-fashioned, but if you ask me that's quite understandable - if you're in a job that involves communicating with people, members of the general public especially, it's fair that you should look presentable most of the time, which, with respect, is something that many Punks aren't capable of doing.


use your own mind and see that the only person that is pissed off by the class war thing is you. I'm not pissed off. I just think it was a serious error.

[Olerud]

its a struggle to sit through the Jonathan Ross show.

Ha true dat