"Welsh Defence League" march in Swansea, Oct. 17th

[Trystan]

http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=270326895320

The "Welsh Defence League" are marching through Swansea on Oct. 17th, according to the source above. They seem to want to associate the EDL/WDL with Swansea City (as well as other clubs), presumably the work of the kind of moronic fascist fucktards I see there sometimes.

Anyway . . . can anyone tell me if the UAF or Antifa or whoever will be organising a counter-protest or some such?

[1968]

Wrexham is only 3hrs from Swansea. Wrexham casuals/hools have an unusually strong connection with Bohs (Dublin) and Celtic (Glasgow) and also have a strong rivalry with Swansea hools. They might come down for the day.

[MilitantAnarchist]

I think you can quite safely guarantee Antifa will be there :laugh:

[Killfacer]

rofl i just moved to swansea university. No excuses for not turning up this time.

[Pogue]

rofl i just moved to swansea university. No excuses for not turning up this time.

too fucking right

[tellyontellyon]

Socialist Party (CWI) in Swansea will be there.

Also Newport, South Wales on Oct 24th.

UAF will be there.

[Killfacer]

Can anyone email or PM some contact details for the swansea crew who will be down. Ask pogue for my email but enless you have over 500 posts fuck off.

[bluevegan]

I know there are talks of a counter demo of some sort, when i hear more i will post.

[tellyontellyon]

Swansea organising meeting last night to discuss an anti fascist counter protest against the Welsh Defence League's planned anti-Muslim march in St Helen's Road on Saturday, October 17th. It was agreed that the counter protest would assemble at 4pm by the YMCA (latest info suggest that the Welsh Defence League would protest between 5 - 8pm).
Please circulate these details as widely as possible especially to local trade union organisations, etc. to get a large as possible turnout against these racist thugs.

[Pogue]

The 'Welsh Defence League' will be holding a demonstration in Swansea City Centre this Saturday around Midday (official time is 2pm but you never know with this lot).

I'd encourage anyone who lives nearby to go, I'll be coming up from London. PM me if you want to talk about it.

[Anton]

can't make this one, good luck to all the comrades that do though. We need big numbers.

[tellyontellyon]

Latest info I've had is:

As you should be aware the Welsh Defence League is organisng an anti-Muslim protest in Swansea on Saturday, October 17th.
It now appears they have changed the time of their protest and are now meeting at 3pm in Castle Square. The anti-racist counter protest will therefore now assemble at 1pm in Castle square.

I'm sure it won't hurt to be there earlier though.

[tellyontellyon]

Latest info I've had is:

As you should be aware the Welsh Defence League is organisng an anti-Muslim protest in Swansea on Saturday, October 17th.
It now appears they have changed the time of their protest and are now meeting at 3pm in Castle Square. The anti-racist counter protest will therefore now assemble at 1pm in Castle square.

I'm sure it won't hurt to be there earlier though.

[Holden Caulfield]

I've merged the two threads existing on this topic, the posts will go into time order so may be mixed up a little but the gist is still there.

[Pogue]

I'd like to apologise for making a seperate thread on this, I forgot about the existence of this one.

[Pogue]

Again though anyone going please PM me if u want.

[Melbourne Lefty]

antifa need to start poaching people from UAF protests. Should be easy enough, simply pick out any young male who actually looks vaguely working class and is not selling a paper.

[Anton]

antifa need to start poaching people from UAF protests. Should be easy enough, simply pick out any young male who actually looks vaguely working class and is not selling a paper.
i get the young, but I think the assumption that males are necessarily more militant is wrong.

[Spawn of Stalin]

Yeah there are a number of female Antifa Comrades on the continent, not sure about here in Britain though. I generally do agree though, UAF is a haven for potential militants, and if they don't sort their act out they're actually a danger to anti-fascism. With Antifa and UAF I see it as quality vs. quantity, but I can't think of any reason why we can't have both.

[Holden Caulfield]

Yeah there are a number of female Antifa Comrades on the continent, not sure about here in Britain though. I generally do agree though, UAF is a haven for potential militants, and if they don't sort their act out they're actually a danger to anti-fascism. With Antifa and UAF I see it as quality vs. quantity, but I can't think of any reason why we can't have both.

I assure you antifa is not a boys club,
I agree with your point thought, at Manchester there were many non UAF people , militant people there, but the press label them all UAF. Go check the Manc EDL thread

[aty]

Is not Red Action active anymore? Remember them from back in the time in GB, great fighters.

[Y Chwyldro Comiwnyddol Cymraeg]

When are all the counter protestors arriving, Miday, I'll be there - cant let these fascists spread their hate in Swansea!

[tellyontellyon]

Be aware.. the Swansea and Cardiff football 'supporters', who are usually fighting each other, have called a truce for the day.
The police have approved the EDL/WDL march, and the police will probably be there in large numbers.

We want a massive presence there, so please bring your friends!!

Castle Square about 1pm, EDL/WDL expected around 3 - 4pm so there may be a little wait.

[Pogue]

cya all there

[Omi]

Good luck everyone who is going!:cool:

[aty]

Found an old clip of Red Action, some inspiration for you: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=So6wL4Sr7KI

[Pogue]

btw red action sort of folded, some joined the SPEW, others formed the IWCA, so some eventually ended up in Antifa.

[tellyontellyon]

Another video of a slightly earlier anti-fascist protest:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-AQDOjQGZuA

[Melbourne Lefty]

i get the young, but I think the assumption that males are necessarily more militant is wrong.

True but thanks to the conditioning of masculinity in our society they would probably be easier to grab quickly and effectively.

[fidzboi]

I was there today for what was ultimately a very successful demonstration. The EDL/WDL/whogivesafuckthey'refascistbastards lot, predominately made up from a collection of young men who looked like they belonged to various football firms, ended up being stuck, backs against the wall, for about 2 hours. A number of police were required to control the anti-fascist demonstrators, with the fascist lot only being contained by a handful of officers and making no attempt to provoke physical confrontation.

The presence of the local political elite, including quite a few Labour politicians, probably meant the protest was always going to be non-physical, but if there were any antifa folks there trying to instigate a more militant approach they eluded me. There wasn't essentially much desire on either side to fight, with the fascist lot actually being quite subdued; the most controversial act of the day involved a fascist youth scaling a building to remove an anti-nazi banner.

If antifa's aim here was to bring a more militant perspective to the demo, then as far as I saw they unfortunately failed. What was really nice to see and very positive, was the number of people who turned out who weren't from the usual places. Saw more people I knew today that don't usually engage in political practice than ones who do, which is always nice to see. And the protest was a resounding success in terms of stopping them from entering the square and marching, all they did was stand there for a couple of hours listening to anti-fascist abuse before then going to catch the train home.

[Killfacer]

I was there. I witnessed the brilliant UAF palling around with a labour MP. I witnessed horrific bongo toting white men with dredds dancing. I witnessed 200 people sing bob fucking marley for no fucking reason other than to make us look slightly more idiotic than we already do.

[fidzboi]

Yes there were Labour party members, UAF people, Plaid ministers, Student reps, etc., etc., there, and yes they were 'palling around', but was there anyone else there articulating an alternate programme? Not that I saw, in fact the scent of anarchist praxis was sadly absent today. As for the 'bongo toting white men', they're present anytime anything happens in Castle Gardens, that just Swansea culture for you. :glare:

[Socialist Guy]

Sounds like it was a successful day for the anti-fascists yet again. When will they give up for good and get the message?

[Pogue]

I was there today for what was ultimately a very successful demonstration. The EDL/WDL/whogivesafuckthey'refascistbastards lot, predominately made up from a collection of young men who looked like they belonged to various football firms, ended up being stuck, backs against the wall, for about 2 hours. A number of police were required to control the anti-fascist demonstrators, with the fascist lot only being contained by a handful of officers and making no attempt to provoke physical confrontation.

The presence of the local political elite, including quite a few Labour politicians, probably meant the protest was always going to be non-physical, but if there were any antifa folks there trying to instigate a more militant approach they eluded me. There wasn't essentially much desire on either side to fight, with the fascist lot actually being quite subdued; the most controversial act of the day involved a fascist youth scaling a building to remove an anti-nazi banner.

If antifa's aim here was to bring a more militant perspective to the demo, then as far as I saw they unfortunately failed. What was really nice to see and very positive, was the number of people who turned out who weren't from the usual places. Saw more people I knew today that don't usually engage in political practice than ones who do, which is always nice to see. And the protest was a resounding success in terms of stopping them from entering the square and marching, all they did was stand there for a couple of hours listening to anti-fascist abuse before then going to catch the train home.

Why are you talking about Antifa as if you actually know what your talking about?

[Pogue]

In my opinion ultimately it was succesful because the EDL couldn't do shit and ultimately got humiliated as they were forced to leave under jeers and police protection. However I think there were very obvious problems with anti-fascism in the UK that were seen today, nothing new but just signs of some of the problems, for example enedless speeches telling us nothing new over and over again, and alot of confusion over who was doing what, for example on more than one occasion in my area of the crowd there were fascists mixed in with anti-fascists and only a few of us were trying to do anything about it.

As ever though I learnt alot from this demo and has been a recurrent theme on my anti-fascist outings lately I feel it was a clear victory, I'll be taking my experiences back to all anti-fascist comrades as I feel there are very obvious things to be learned from these events.

[fidzboi]

Why are you talking about Antifa as if you actually know what your talking about?

I'm no expert but...

Me: 'If antifa's aim here was to bring a more militant perspective to the demo, then as far as I saw they unfortunately failed.'

You: 'However I think there were very obvious problems with anti-fascism in the UK that were seen today, nothing new but just signs of some of the problems, for example enedless speeches telling us nothing new over and over again, and alot of confusion over who was doing what, for example on more than one occasion in my area of the crowd there were fascists mixed in with anti-fascists and only a few of us were trying to do anything about it.'

What am I missing here? Would you not say it is your/antifa's position that you would like to see 'a more militant perspective' on show? That would presumably be evident via a practical manifestation, in other words antifa members guiding the demo down a more militant road.

I would have been interested in such a road, but I found little interest in it at the prior meetings I attended regarding this event, nor did I see much interest in it at the demo. Yet if people who hold militant anti-fascist views don't express them and make themselves heard, then I don't see much point in moaning about quite reserved anti-fascist praxis winning the day.

I realise this is not the case everywhere, but in Swansea and particularly with regards this demo, I personally didn't see a more militant approach being presented. And I suspect that was the case with most people.

Additionally, the equivalent thread to this one on stormfront primarily focuses on how the counter demonstrators were 'weirdos' and 'freak-shows', 'dikes, kikes and limp wristed nancy boys!' Which means that a, a load of young healthy members of the master race got beat by these people, and b, a significant amount of people who, as I said, don't often get involved in politics managed to gain tags usually only reserved for people like ourselves.

***************/forum/showthread. php?t=649376

I agree there's a lot wrong with present practice, but just moaning about UAF and not giving them congratulations when congratulations are in order and just standing by and letting them dominate anti-fascist activity, is surely not the solution. Don't you agree?

[Spawn of Stalin]

From what I've read here congratulations to UAF are not in order, I wasn't there yesterday but it seems like they just did what they always do, collaborate with the state a little, shout the same boring slogans at the racists, then went home to their bourgeois families. While it may have seemed like a victory, all they are actually doing every time they go out, is keeping the racists at bay, rather than actually defeating them. This, really, is a class issue, but UAF aren't interested in class politics, they are scared of class politics, and they are scared of admitting that there is a little more to this than "Holocaust denying Nazi scum", frankly I don't believe UAF have what it takes to fight fascism under the banner of the working class, so instead, they employ the tactics of the bourgeois and use the excuse that we have to fight fascism by any means necessary. Say what you want about Antifa, I like them, regardless of their anarchist politics, I'd just like to see them out in the streets a bit more, regretably due to the nature of what they do this isn't always possible, not their fault really, which is why I'm an advocate of a mass organisation like UAF, but one of a militant working class nature like Antifa. There are detractors on both sides of the fence who don't like either Antifa or UAF, I think it's time for the militants to give unity a chance, and for the UAF types to give militancy a chance, it's not hard, we don't even need an organisation like UAF, the same dedicated anti-fascists would come out to oppose EDL and the like with or without UAF's existence, the only difference is, without them we would not be bound by UAF's leadership, who frankly, are a bunch of tossers.

[Pogue]

I'm no expert but...

Me: 'If antifa's aim here was to bring a more militant perspective to the demo, then as far as I saw they unfortunately failed.'

You: 'However I think there were very obvious problems with anti-fascism in the UK that were seen today, nothing new but just signs of some of the problems, for example enedless speeches telling us nothing new over and over again, and alot of confusion over who was doing what, for example on more than one occasion in my area of the crowd there were fascists mixed in with anti-fascists and only a few of us were trying to do anything about it.'

What am I missing here? Would you not say it is your/antifa's position that you would like to see 'a more militant perspective' on show? That would presumably be evident via a practical manifestation, in other words antifa members guiding the demo down a more militant road.

I would have been interested in such a road, but I found little interest in it at the prior meetings I attended regarding this event, nor did I see much interest in it at the demo. Yet if people who hold militant anti-fascist views don't express them and make themselves heard, then I don't see much point in moaning about quite reserved anti-fascist praxis winning the day.

I realise this is not the case everywhere, but in Swansea and particularly with regards this demo, I personally didn't see a more militant approach being presented. And I suspect that was the case with most people.

Additionally, the equivalent thread to this one on stormfront primarily focuses on how the counter demonstrators were 'weirdos' and 'freak-shows', 'dikes, kikes and limp wristed nancy boys!' Which means that a, a load of young healthy members of the master race got beat by these people, and b, a significant amount of people who, as I said, don't often get involved in politics managed to gain tags usually only reserved for people like ourselves.

***************/forum/showthread. php?t=649376

I agree there's a lot wrong with present practice, but just moaning about UAF and not giving them congratulations when congratulations are in order and just standing by and letting them dominate anti-fascist activity, is surely not the solution. Don't you agree?

It seems to me you have some idea in your head that Antifa issued a statement declaring their intention to attend this demonstration and make it more 'militant'. Might I enquire what your source for this information is because I'm so upset that you managed to receive it and I didn't :(:rolleyes:

As my above paragraph may have suggested you clearly don't seem to know what your on about. Members of Antifa and closesly afiliated people who share the organisation's aims and beliefs on how fascism can be opposed have attended all subsequent demonstrations against the EDL and had a presence on this demonstration too. Obviously being one of these people I can vouch for this. We never said our tactic was too 'make other people more militant' - I don't think as an organisation at the moment that would be possible, encouraging people to engage in more militant anti-fascist activity isn't an easy process of simply asking them to throw a punch or something. Obviously though I would do my best to try, if I saw it as psosible, to make a demonstration more militant but oftent hat simply cannot be considered.

So our intention on this demonstration was ultimately the same as yours - to stop the EDL, and also gain more information on the organisation, how it behaves, etc. Although pictures could tell me this:

http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/1808/naziedl.jpg (http://img19.imageshack.us/i/naziedl.jpg/)

Actually seeing members of the organisation in the flesh resorting to sieg heiling at you when they can't do anything else is more solid an experience, the same way actually being there and preventing them being able to demonstrate is more powerful and useful than hearing about other peolpe doing it.

Rather oddly as I thought this demonstration didn't actually turn into a brawl as at a number of points it very easily could have, for example when a number of EDL members were caught amongst anti-fascists behind the police cordon and were targetting an Asian man with their abuse (shouting paki at him, telling him to 'fuck off' - in the 'leave this country sense' and sieg heiling at him) and a couple of anti-fascists at this point stood next to the man and alongside him gave it back to the EDL - the fact he was Asian and the two comrades who assisted him were white a hilighter of the absurdity of the far-rights attempts to try and stir up things as 'racial' issues - showed how close things got to violence but I suppose it just didn't happen.

As I said ultimately this was a success, as I remarked to a comrade if a left wing demonstration couldn't hold their rally due to opposition and had to be marched out of town by police it would be a humiliating defeat - it would never happen. The fact they got so angry when they were heckled out of town showed they recognised this too.

[fidzboi]

It seems to me you have some idea in your head that Antifa issued a statement declaring their intention to attend this demonstration and make it more 'militant'. Might I enquire what your source for this information is because I'm so upset that you managed to receive it and I didn't :(:rolleyes:

If you've interpreted my statements in a manner that suggests I thought there was going to be some large scale antifa operation there, then it seems I've not done a good enough job conveying my thoughts. I wasn't expecting anything like that, I know that unfortunately antifa is not strong enough in Swansea to do something like that. But I did expect to see a whiff of anarchist praxis, a small representation of it.

If you want to know where I got that idea from, then you need look no further than this thread. The third post states, 'I think you can quite safely guarantee Antifa will be there'. Maybe that was meant in jest, but certainly this thread and my general, not expert, knowledge of antifa, lead me to expect/hope there would be more militant programmes at the demo. That there would be some sign of antifa 'encouraging people to engage in more militant anti-fascist activity', which I did not witness.

That's not a slate on antifa, indeed I would fall in the camp of people who could be, as Melbourne Lefty commented, 'poached' from UAF protests. In fact if I'd come on here before the event and not afterwards, I may have tried to contact you beforehand - though given my post count you probably, and wisely, would have ignored my overtures. Personal safety is paramount.

My problem is with people like Red Son, who wasn't there yet has the audacity to call working class socialists - and yes the UAF people, in Swansea anyway, are mainly working class people trying to make a difference - who have been active for years, 'bourgeois' and 'collaborators'. Disagree with their politics, I do, but to cynically smear them when, in this particular instance, they were the only people seriously presenting a programme for action, is not on.

These are good, honest and committed working class people, many of whom I know, and whatever your view of their leadership, this should not obscure that fact. Nor should it mean you engage in the kind of vicious sectarianism Red Son does, the kind of sectarianism you and I know would not be aired in a meeting with these people. I've sat in meetings with these people and argued in favour of more militant approaches, whilst Red Son's characterisation of these people leads me to assume he's had very little exposure to the people he's criticising.

You and I both see the fundamental success of the demo, Swansea, like Birmingham and Manchester, will not welcome the EDL/WDL. Both on internet sites and in person, I've heard a lot of people say they were proud to be from this city yesterday, myself included. And if you look at the WDL's facebook sites and stormfront, you can get an indication of the humiliation inflicted on these people.

People who have tried to water down their politics, arguing that they are just for peaceful protest of Islamic extremism. A good 1,000 people saw through that yesterday, and the UAF folks, whatever their faults, deserve at least a modicum of credit for helping facilitate that.

The history books will read that on Oct 17, 2009, anti-fascist protesters won the Battle for Castle Gardens! ;)

Personally, any criticisms I wish to level, I will level in a constructive fashion. The fact that the demo didn't follow them to the train station and allowed them to march unopposed to that destination, is something I will bring up for discussion the next time I see these people. But abusing these people, mocking their commitment, will never lead to them even entertaining more militant ideas.

In situations like this, one needs to relate to people in the kind of way one wishes to be related to.

[tellyontellyon]

Some pics from the mail:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1221226/Anti-Islamic-march-sparks-violent-clashes-Nazi-saluting-Welsh-Defence-League-takes-streets.html

[Pogue]

If you've interpreted my statements in a manner that suggests I thought there was going to be some large scale antifa operation there, then it seems I've not done a good enough job conveying my thoughts. I wasn't expecting anything like that, I know that unfortunately antifa is not strong enough in Swansea to do something like that. But I did expect to see a whiff of anarchist praxis, a small representation of it.

If you want to know where I got that idea from, then you need look no further than this thread. The third post states, 'I think you can quite safely guarantee Antifa will be there'. Maybe that was meant in jest, but certainly this thread and my general, not expert, knowledge of antifa, lead me to expect/hope there would be more militant programmes at the demo. That there would be some sign of antifa 'encouraging people to engage in more militant anti-fascist activity', which I did not witness.

That's not a slate on antifa, indeed I would fall in the camp of people who could be, as Melbourne Lefty commented, 'poached' from UAF protests. In fact if I'd come on here before the event and not afterwards, I may have tried to contact you beforehand - though given my post count you probably, and wisely, would have ignored my overtures. Personal safety is paramount.

My problem is with people like Red Son, who wasn't there yet has the audacity to call working class socialists - and yes the UAF people, in Swansea anyway, are mainly working class people trying to make a difference - who have been active for years, 'bourgeois' and 'collaborators'. Disagree with their politics, I do, but to cynically smear them when, in this particular instance, they were the only people seriously presenting a programme for action, is not on.

These are good, honest and committed working class people, many of whom I know, and whatever your view of their leadership, this should not obscure that fact. Nor should it mean you engage in the kind of vicious sectarianism Red Son does, the kind of sectarianism you and I know would not be aired in a meeting with these people. I've sat in meetings with these people and argued in favour of more militant approaches, whilst Red Son's characterisation of these people leads me to assume he's had very little exposure to the people he's criticising.

You and I both see the fundamental success of the demo, Swansea, like Birmingham and Manchester, will not welcome the EDL/WDL. Both on internet sites and in person, I've heard a lot of people say they were proud to be from this city yesterday, myself included. And if you look at the WDL's facebook sites and stormfront, you can get an indication of the humiliation inflicted on these people.

People who have tried to water down their politics, arguing that they are just for peaceful protest of Islamic extremism. A good 1,000 people saw through that yesterday, and the UAF folks, whatever their faults, deserve at least a modicum of credit for helping facilitate that.

The history books will read that on Oct 17, 2009, anti-fascist protesters won the Battle for Castle Gardens! ;)

Personally, any criticisms I wish to level, I will level in a constructive fashion. The fact that the demo didn't follow them to the train station and allowed them to march unopposed to that destination, is something I will bring up for discussion the next time I see these people. But abusing these people, mocking their commitment, will never lead to them even entertaining more militant ideas.

In situations like this, one needs to relate to people in the kind of way one wishes to be related to.

There was an anarchist/militant anti-fascist presence, I don't see what you expected us to do though, I think your taking a somewhat naive view of what we can do, almost as if, if we want to, we could just whip up a frenzy, we did what we could as individuals.

The UAF leadership is shit and it is a fair criticism to say alot of the membership is middle class liberal types and elftist academics. Obviously not all of them but alot. Thats a fair criticism. Obviously I respect everyone who turned out, but the point is the way they are made to act by their leadership means they look stupid and are less effective than they could be. But I agree its a problem with the leadership not the membership.

Also, no one abuses these people. We criticise the way organisations tell them to/make them act and this is a legitimate criticism. I think you are the one who is largely misunderstanding everything about our opinions on anti-fascism and your thus attacking your own conception of them not reality.

[fidzboi]

There was an anarchist/militant anti-fascist presence, I don't see what you expected us to do though, I think your taking a somewhat naive view of what we can do, almost as if, if we want to, we could just whip up a frenzy, we did what we could as individuals.

I think you're either misunderstanding or misrepresenting what I've said so far. I certainly haven't attributed you the ability to transform a whole protest, but I have said that you have an opportunity to present an alternate programme, to direct the protest down a more militant road. That does not equal 'whipping up a frenzy', it means doing something that would indicate to people that that was an option.

Trying to provoke physical confrontation would be one way of doing that, but having a banner, handing out leaflets that argued in favour of a more militant approach, trying to start some alternate chants, etc., etc., would be the the way one would assume you try and introduce more militancy. Was anything like this present yesterday? I certainly didn't see any obvious signs of your orgs presence.

Now, you've said that I don't understand the complexity of your approach, that I've over simplified it, but how else do you get your politics noticed but through advocating them? And if what I've outlined above does not fit with your practical approach, then please do tell what you did do, as an organisation, to promote militant anti-fascism here.

If you remember, my original comment which you took issue to was, 'If antifa's aim here was to bring a more militant perspective to the demo, then as far as I saw they unfortunately failed.' So far all you've done is say that I don't understand what you do, whilst offering no articulation of what you do do. So what did you do to introduce a more militant perspective? And if your perspective remained hidden, as it did as far as I saw, then how can your attempts to introduce it here not be seen as a failure?

As for the UAF's class composition, I wouldn't go as far as saying that 'alot of the membership is middle class liberal types and elftist (leftist?) academics', and this 'fair criticism' could be levelled at anarchist groups just as much as them. Which makes it, in this context, little more than sectarian bating. Which wouldn't likely be repeated at any meetings with these people, but perfect for an anonymous message board.

Not some much fair criticism, but cowardly and worthless criticism...

[Pogue]

I think you're either misunderstanding or misrepresenting what I've said so far. I certainly haven't attributed you the ability to transform a whole protest, but I have said that you have an opportunity to present an alternate programme, to direct the protest down a more militant road. That does not equal 'whipping up a frenzy', it means doing something that would indicate to people that that was an option.

Trying to provoke physical confrontation would be one way of doing that, but having a banner, handing out leaflets that argued in favour of a more militant approach, trying to start some alternate chants, etc., etc., would be the the way one would assume you try and introduce more militancy. Was anything like this present yesterday? I certainly didn't see any obvious signs of your orgs presence.

Now, you've said that I don't understand the complexity of your approach, that I've over simplified it, but how else do you get your politics noticed but through advocating them? And if what I've outlined above does not fit with your practical approach, then please do tell what you did do, as an organisation, to promote militant anti-fascism here.

If you remember, my original comment which you took issue to was, 'If antifa's aim here was to bring a more militant perspective to the demo, then as far as I saw they unfortunately failed.' So far all you've done is say that I don't understand what you do, whilst offering no articulation of what you do do. So what did you do to introduce a more militant perspective? And if your perspective remained hidden, as it did as far as I saw, then how can your attempts to introduce it here not be seen as a failure?

As for the UAF's class composition, I wouldn't go as far as saying that 'alot of the membership is middle class liberal types and elftist (leftist?) academics', and this 'fair criticism' could be levelled at anarchist groups just as much as them. Which makes it, in this context, little more than sectarian bating. Which wouldn't likely be repeated at any meetings with these people, but perfect for an anonymous message board.

Not some much fair criticism, but cowardly and worthless criticism...

I don't think its cowardly a worthless criticism, obviously a group which attacks the BNP from a liberal perspective will attract middle class liberal types more than not. Also note this criticism comes from alot of engagement with these people on numerous demos.

And again, when did Antifa say they would have a presence on this demonstration. The group is called Antifa England for one thing, and not everyone can afford to the time or money to travel out to Swansea, it just so happened that on this occasion I could and I thought I'd take advantage of it.

Its not really a thing that Antifa do at the moment to hand out leaflets and hold banners inciting people to violence, again I think its pretty obvious why they wouldn't do this.

I think you are totally misunderstanding the aims and structure of the group. I think its actually a solid criticism to say that the group doesn't have enough of a public face. Obviously its understandable why they don't go shouting it out, but me and others who, as Holden said, follow the 'Antifa line' have even said they need to have more of a public face.

There was no official antifa presence on this demonstration, to what extent it matters. I've already explained why - the limitations, but theres also the fact that following a number of raids across the country against the group with many members threatened with incarceration if they engage in further anti-fascist activity. Obviously this can cause disruption to a groups intentions and I think the very real impact of the states intervention on activists is something often over-looked especially in the area of anti-fascism.

Regardless, as I said there was a presence on that demonstration of people who would consider themselves militant anti-fascists, myself included. Short of handing out leaflets telling people to get in a ruck or whatever, I was doing what I can in my capacity as an indvidual. This has happened before, i.e. militant anti-fascists have been on similar demonstrations and you would not have noticed because there was no reason for you to notice. Your criticism seems to come from nowhere.

I myself however feel perfectly able to criticise UAF on this matter in what might be seen as a combative manner, and thats because it is. I am being constructive but not in the most obvious way - I don't want to offer UAF constructive criticism, I want to create/further an anti-fascist organisation capable of seriously fighting fascism which I don't think UAF is able too. I have attended such a large number of anti-fascist demonstrations that I think I am well educated and informed enough to offer these criticisms. I think that there were positives and negatives of their behaviour on yesterday's demonstration that in my opinion need to be avoided in the future by anti-fascists. Following a number of hours of travel across two countries to get to this demonstration if I notice something I think holds things back I will say it. But note my criticism is directed entirely against the leadership, the attitudes of the organisation. I think the activities of the demonstrators were admirable and what you'd expect from people who, as you said, are not likely ot be seasoned street fighters but ordinary people. From the off however I noticed the preachy (to the converted) manner of the SWP speakers and some of the general absurdity of the things going on.

I don't want you to think I am being mindlessly sectarian. If I was someone who just wants to slate people who I don't think are 'up to standards' or something else insulting I wouldn't commit my time and money to travelling hundreds of miles just to show a bit of solidarity and do my bit alongside other people. I just think there are serious problems with anti-fascism and seeing as it is the area of politics I am most itnerested aind informed on I get passionate about it which means I am not going to pull punches. I hope to bring my criticisms and issues to the relevant people as soon as I can.

[fidzboi]

Pogue, let me just start by saying my charge of sectarianism wasn't directed at you, rather it was directed at those within the libertarian socialist camp - and I would put class struggle anarchism under that particular umbrella - who have a tendency to just slander things like UAF without making any real attempt to engage in something more productive. Red Son, in this thread, is an example of that type of person. That's not to say I don't understand where they are coming from, I've just come to realise that their views are neither particularly accurate nor productive.

I don't think anyone would argue that UAF isn't primarily the SWP, and whilst other, non-socialist organisations participate in it, it's SWP socialism that dominates this movement. And whilst I've got problems with SWP socialism, in my experience the majority of members are working class, usually union people. These people are comrades and fellow workers', and definitely worth engaging with.

These are the people most likely to turn to libertarian socialism if they become dissolutioned with the groups that largely dominate the British left, but only if we engage with them. I'd wager that most rank and file SWP people, especially the younger ones, would be very impressed by antagonistic anarchist praxis. These people want to see revolutionary change, and anarchy in action has a real aura about it, a strength and sense of empowerment that you won't find at an SWP demo.

I agree with your comment that antifa doesn't have enough of a 'public face', but I'd kind of extend it to all elements of libertarian socialism. And it's at events like this were I'd most like to see that face, and yet unfortunately it is often hidden away. You've mentioned sum of the reasons - time, money, numbers, state repression - and I don't think you'd disagree if I said it was unfortunate that these factors lead to this. You and I have no quarrel on that point, nor do we on most others, imo.

The quarrel I have, as I've said, is with people like Red Son just coming along and spouting a load of sectarian drivel which aides no one. I certainly don't see it aiding 'creation/furthering [of] an anti-fascist organisation capable of seriously fighting fascism', and an organisation capable of seriously fighting capitalism.

The new century, imo, will lead to new and improved radical organisations, and if they're going to be any good, I think they need to start organising socialists along class lines as opposed to theoretical ones. That means engaging with fellow workers, even SWP ones, and drawing them towards the idea that radical organisation should find its motor in the ideas and views of its members, not the party executive.

Our organisations should be democratic, militant and working class; if they're that, then good politics will follow.

[Pogue]

Pogue, let me just start by saying my charge of sectarianism wasn't directed at you, rather it was directed at those within the libertarian socialist camp - and I would put class struggle anarchism under that particular umbrella - who have a tendency to just slander things like UAF without making any real attempt to engage in something more productive. Red Son, in this thread, is an example of that type of person. That's not to say I don't understand where they are coming from, I've just come to realise that their views are neither particularly accurate nor productive.

I don't think anyone would argue that UAF isn't primarily the SWP, and whilst other, non-socialist organisations participate in it, it's SWP socialism that dominates this movement. And whilst I've got problems with SWP socialism, in my experience the majority of members are working class, usually union people. These people are comrades and fellow workers', and definitely worth engaging with.

These are the people most likely to turn to libertarian socialism if they become dissolutioned with the groups that largely dominate the British left, but only if we engage with them. I'd wager that most rank and file SWP people, especially the younger ones, would be very impressed by antagonistic anarchist praxis. These people want to see revolutionary change, and anarchy in action has a real aura about it, a strength and sense of empowerment that you won't find at an SWP demo.

I agree with your comment that antifa doesn't have enough of a 'public face', but I'd kind of extend it to all elements of libertarian socialism. And it's at events like this were I'd most like to see that face, and yet unfortunately it is often hidden away. You've mentioned sum of the reasons - time, money, numbers, state repression - and I don't think you'd disagree if I said it was unfortunate that these factors lead to this. You and I have no quarrel on that point, nor do we on most others, imo.

The quarrel I have, as I've said, is with people like Red Son just coming along and spouting a load of sectarian drivel which aides no one. I certainly don't see it aiding 'creation/furthering [of] an anti-fascist organisation capable of seriously fighting fascism', and an organisation capable of seriously fighting capitalism.

The new century, imo, will lead to new and improved radical organisations, and if they're going to be any good, I think they need to start organising socialists along class lines as opposed to theoretical ones. That means engaging with fellow workers, even SWP ones, and drawing them towards the idea that radical organisation should find its motor in the ideas and views of its members, not the party executive.

Our organisations should be democratic, militant and working class; if they're that, then good politics will follow.

We have had a presence at every single EDL demonstration there has been. Perhaps it is merely a problem with the numbers of our organisations. No one is denying that is an issue - due to how we conduct our politics, we have less members in our organisations than say UAF who accept anyone who agrees with their very open platform. I don't think numbers is what makes a good movement though.

Although it would do good for having a more public face on demonstrations of this nature this isn't our main emphasis, for us anti-fascism is basically whoever is willing stopping the far-right from organising and being active in defence of ourselves and our organisations whilst we build our other initiatives. For my group, L&S, this would be workplace and community organising, which while involving demonstrations and the need to physically be there and hand out elaflets and try and convince people, at this stage is probably slightly less emphasis on this.

Basically, I think as libertarian socialists we'd probably see the situations and moments when we're doing that further down the line in our development. Not to say we don't do such things but I mean its not our main focus. Obviously again there are tactical and practical considerations to be made im regards to this. Essentially we focus our resources in different directions at the moment. But where we can we go on things like this and yes, try to engage people. I do that regularly just as I did yesterday.

[Melbourne Lefty]

Looks like the WDL got owned.

[fidzboi]

Looks like the WDL got owned.

Check this out:

'Of 120 people that turned up in Swansea, a large number were Nazi Skinheads, who basically hijacked the demo, wouldnt be told not to Seig Heil or chant "BNP" and seemed intent on ruining it for us, and making Mike, who's been on TV and radio for weeks saying we arent racist, look like a ****.'

casualsunited. webs.com/

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Bar the obvious and amusing political squirming, this is a clear admission from the horses mouth that there are 'Nazi Skinheads' in their ranks. Call a spade a spade and all that...

[Spawn of Stalin]

Without looking too thick, were the Nazi's part of WDL? Or no?

[Melbourne Lefty]

Without looking too thick, were the Nazi's part of WDL? Or no?


Looks like they just showed up on their own and decided that the WDL were not being forcefull [i.e nazi] enough for their liking.

Shows that nazis support the WDL/EDL, but the reaction equally shows that the leadership and organisers are not. Interesting really.

[fidzboi]

Without looking too thick, were the Nazi's part of WDL? Or no?

The EDL/WDL's membership base is in the various football firms in operation, and based on my personal observations on Saturday, along with the observations made by others, I don't think it would be inaccurate to say that the fascists on show came from the aforementioned place. So whilst the official line of the org isn't 'Nazi', its membership does seem to compromise those whose views may be characterised by that term. And I'd suggest that their whines of opposition are nothing more than political sophistry, not worth the paper they're printed on.

Whether they choose to officially proclaim it or not, the EDL/WDL is the same as the NF and other fascist groups who'd love nothing more than to strut around 'paki bashing'. The only differences being that the EDL/WDL choose to present a more pleasant public, as in official, face, and that they are a distinctly shoddy organisation when compared to some of their predecessors and rivals.

[tellyontellyon]

I was talking to a woman the other day, she said, " I'm not a racist, but I just can't stand all these paki's".

I think the woman really didn't identify herself as a racist. That sort of denial of racist attitudes is the kind of thing that the BNP thrives on.. and is quite deliberately fostering.

The BNP is about as racist as you can get, but their pathetic and transparent denials are enough to allow some racists to keep on avoiding the truth of the matter.

[ossiedave]

I have heard from Wreham Communities against racisum that there is supposed to be a march by th EDL and WDL at Wrexham on the 21st November 2009 does anyone know anyhing about this:confused: