How do we stop the BNP? (by Mark Steel)

[Holden Caulfield]

THERE'S SOMETHING touchingly innocent about the argument put forward by many people that the British National Party (BNP) should be allowed space in the mainstream media, as this will "expose their ignorant ideas."

Because history doesn't necessarily prove this to be the case. I don't suppose that in 1941, many people thought: "You see, this is all working to plan. Now he's invaded Russia, everyone will see just what an idiot this Hitler really is."

The arguments of the far-right groups are already obviously ridiculous. The latest slogan they march under is "Stop the Islamification of England." But how many people have had their lives Islamified against their will? Is there a single tea shop owner in Dorset who has to tell her customers: "Sorry dear, we're not allowed to serve a scone until after dark as it's Ramadan"? Do radio stations have to start the day: "Good morning, this is BBC Radio Sussex calling you to prayer"?

The most important government policy in recent years was probably the decision to go to war in Iraq, a move vehemently opposed by almost every Muslim in the country. But the BNP would presumably say: "That proves it--they deliberately ignored the Muslims when they SHOULD be ignoring the BRITISH people."

The trouble is, the BNP don't aim to attract support by winning debates. They want to spread fear and then pose as the respectable antidote. The other trouble is they do this because, in my view, they're fascists, with some of their leadership having a record of supporting Hitler.

Leading member Richard Edmonds published "Holocaust News," which claimed the Holocaust was an "evil hoax." The publicity manager Mark Collett fudged the Hitler issue when he said: "Hitler will live forever." Co-founder of the party, the late John Tyndall, managed to surpass that with "Mein Kampf is my Bible."

So the party that appoints itself as the barrier to Britain being taken over by a foreign religion was set up by someone who thought the Bible should be German.

And Nick Griffin wrote a pamphlet in 1997 called "The Mind-Benders," in which he said of the Holocaust: "The 'extermination' tale is a mixture of Allied wartime propaganda and witch-hysteria."

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

GRIFFIN USUALLY dismisses these examples by putting them down to excitable youth. Because we've all got embarrassing snippets from our teenage days, so it hardly matters which of us wore crazy kipper ties and which wrote pamphlets denying the Holocaust--and the fact that Griffin wrote that when he was 38 only shows how young and full of life he is.

But around 10 years ago, the BNP hit a snag, realizing that their approach was holding them back. Maybe they had a focus group, with someone reporting that, "Okay, if I can share my feedback, some of the policies, such as distrust of Europe, supporting British farmers, I'm hearing lots of positive energy. But, and don't take this the wrong way, the praising Hitler angle is proving mostly negative, I'm afraid."

So Griffin set about making them appear respectable. They would deny they were fascist, and claim to be an upstanding legitimate party. This creates another problem with them in the media, as their leaders are determined to conceal what I believe is their real mission, which isn't just to campaign in elections but to build a force of street-fighters.

After a BNP member was elected in 1993, Griffin said: "The electors of Millwall did not back a post-modernist Rightist party, but what they perceived to be a strong, disciplined organization with the ability to back up its slogan 'Defend Rights for Whites', with well-directed boots and fists."

At which point, if you thought: "Ah-hah, the trick now is to interview him and expose how he's misunderstood post-modernism. Then the electors of Millwall will see how ridiculous he is," you were probably missing the point.

So the most effective opposition comes when communities refuse to be intimidated. Last Friday, when the English Defense League announced a protest against "Islamification" outside a mosque in Harrow, around 2,000 people stood in their way. The "protest" vanished, and the local population has apparently tingled with excitement ever since. As was the case in the 1930s and 1970s, events such as this are the most practical barriers against the far right.

The idea of inviting them into the mainstream in order to expose them is well-meaning, but I doubt whether Griffin thinks: "We can cope with united communities opposing us--but the perfect cutting remark on Newsnight, and we're stuffed."

Socialist Worker (http://socialistworker.org/2009/09/21/how-do-we-stop-the-bnp)

[Trystan]

Thanks. Mark Steel always makes sense.

[Vanguard1917]

Mark Steel views the white British working class with typical middle-class contempt.* It is therefore unsprising that he believes that they'll all flock to the BNP like brainless little children upon hearing Griffin's feeble arguments on Question Time.

Marxists, on the other hand -- i.e. people who view workers as capable of transforming society like no other class before -- feel that working class people are more than capable of making their own minds up about whether or not the BNP's politics are in their interests. We fully reject all forms of censorship in capitalist society.


* E.g. see him moaning in the Independent, in typical snobbish middle-class fashion, about working class Brits spoiling his nice little trip to France:

'A group of eight blokes from Kent had travelled to France for the day to get paralytic, and were burping their way through the departure lounge… I thought: "These blokes must agree the country is full up. So why don’t we suggest they sod off back to France to be banged up in Sangatte, and in their place we take eight asylum-seekers, who will be more pleasant all round and sure to ease the overcrowding as they’ll be a lot skinnier than these fat twats?"'

[Holden Caulfield]

Mark Steel views the white British working class with typical middle-class contempt.


this seems to be a problem of large sections of the English SWP and those around them, i have myself seen it exhibited at Marxism 09 (before Sam B jumps in the Scottish section are, thankfully, alot better as a group of people and with a better outlook).

[Trystan]

Mark Steel views the white British working class with typical middle-class contempt.* It is therefore unsprising that he believes that they'll all flock to the BNP like brainless little children upon hearing Griffin's feeble arguments on Question Time.

Marxists, on the other hand -- i.e. people who view workers as capable of transforming society like no other class before -- feel that working class people are more than capable of making their own minds up about whether or not the BNP's politics are in their interests. We fully reject all forms of censorship in capitalist society.


* E.g. see him moaning in the Independent, in typical snobbish middle-class fashion, about working class Brits spoiling his nice little trip to France:

'A group of eight blokes from Kent had travelled to France for the day to get paralytic, and were burping their way through the departure lounge… I thought: "These blokes must agree the country is full up. So why don’t we suggest they sod off back to France to be banged up in Sangatte, and in their place we take eight asylum-seekers, who will be more pleasant all round and sure to ease the overcrowding as they’ll be a lot skinnier than these fat twats?"'

And how do you know they were working-class, eh? Did you assume that it's only the proles that get pissed in modern Britain? Thank god for Leninist ideology; the Vanguard will put the fuckers on the straight-and-narrow. So who's viewing the working-class with middle-class contempt, eh? :rolleyes:

Oh, and being working-class is no excuse for being the kind of drunk prick that takes no consideration for the people around them. (Travel on a public train on a Saturday if you want to see how some of these people behave). And there's nothing snobbish about calling them out for the ****s they are.

[Hit The North]

this seems to be a problem of large sections of the English SWP and those around them, i have myself seen it exhibited at Marxism 09 (before Sam B jumps in the Scottish section are, thankfully, alot better as a group of people and with a better outlook).

Obviously. Because, as everyone knows, the English generally are just a bunch of twats.

Edit: btw, Mark Steel isn't in the SWP.

[Vanguard1917]

And how do you know they were working-class, eh? Did you assume that it's only the proles that get pissed in modern Britain? Thank god for Leninist ideology; the Vanguard will put the fuckers on the straight-and-narrow. So who's viewing the working-class with middle-class contempt, eh? :rolleyes:

We know exactly the stereotype that he, along with other middle class snobs, has in mind when he refers to 'blokes' going abroad to 'get paralytic' on the cheap with their 'fat' selves - and it ain't nice and polite latte-sipping middle-class Islingtonians. It's the supposedly foul, uncouth working masses.

[Holden Caulfield]

^ As much as I hate to say it, I think VG1917 is right about what he means

[Hit The North]

I support Trystan's post above.

Vanguard1917 and Holden are betraying themselves as the kind of fetishists of the working class which are mainly found in the middle class left. They also expose their biased assumption that these individuals could not possibly be middle class as the middle class are presumably above that kind of behaviour.

[Holden Caulfield]

I support Trystan's post above.

Vanguard1917 and Holden are betraying themselves as the kind of fetishists of the working class which are mainly found in the middle class left. They also expose their biased assumption that these individuals could not possibly be middle class as the middle class are presumably above that kind of behaviour.

No I asssume that the intelligencia, who also write for papers such as the Indy, the Guardian and even the times ouze classism. People like Brooker when he talks about the BNP in regards to his middle class village life, or Steel when he talks about this.

I may be wrong, I may also be wrong in assuming a under lying intellectual snobbery, borderlining on classism, is often found in members of, and people around the SWP. (and don't take this as a personal slander Bob because I really like you as a person) Be that your telling somebody to 'get an education', Rosa's constant intellectual belittling of users of this forum, or activists of the SWP calling working class youths (at Marxism 09, the youths were in her class at her work) 'stupid chavs'.

Perhaps I fetishise the working class, please go along to Notting Hill on carnival day and criticise them for fettishizing certain cultures, but I am not middle class, neither are my views. And I did not just pull my posts out of my arse, I considered them, and can support them.

[Hit The North]

The point remains that you assumed the working class identity of those Steel is mocking, without any evidence; and that by chastising Steel for snobbery you also assume that the behaviour he takes objection to (i.e. being drunk and disorderly) is in some way more authentically proletarian than Steel's disgust for it.


Be that your telling somebody to 'get an education'If I remember the post you allude to here, I told an obviously naive poster to "get out and meet people and educate yourself", which is a little different.


Rosa's constant intellectual belittling of users of this forum



Whatever Rosa is, she is not a member of the SWP.

In terms of the OP, Steel is 100% correct.

Vanguard's attempt to slur him as being "middle class" is only to serve the purpose of rallying support for Griffin's proposed appearance on BBC Question Time. A cause which our resident supporter of Spiked takes very seriously.

[Pogue]

Quite a good article. Well written, but not really saying anything we haven't heard before.

I agree with the middle class bit and the SWP, I saw what Holden saw and I have nuff experience of them. Its pretty bait. But this argument will go nowhere.

Rosa used to be in the SWP iirc. Thats not suprising really. I think she is characteristic of the sort of person in that party. Thats not to say they are all bad though. Such is the nature of vanguard parties.

[Holden Caulfield]

The point remains that you assumed the working class identity of those Steel is mocking, without any evidence; and that by chastising Steel for snobbery you also assume that the behaviour he takes objection to (i.e. being drunk and disorderly) is in some way more authentically proletarian than Steel's disgust for it.



Okay I'm sorry, next time Fox News says something about 'stop eating fried chicken and get off welfare' I'll assume that I have jumped to conclusions and that they aren't in fact racist. Because all assumptions, no matter how well thought out they are,are terrible things. Obviously.

I will stop arguing this (you can have another post if you want the last word) but I think the lack of a counter to what I said kinda vindicates it. As for your comments on VG1917, no matter you opinion of them, are rich from a supporter of UAF, something the BNP acually has a leaflet about claiming them to be a front for the Labour Party, which they are not but they are in league with them. Who is doing more to help Griffin along? (rhetorical question, I know the answer).

@ what Trystan said about working class people being pissed on trains as support for this underlining classism on display, look at the arguments of WN is this country and America. Black people do commit crime at a higher percentage than white people, so their stats show them, so their racism is justified?

[Fidel Follower]

I like Mark Steel, he may seem 'middle-class and pretentious' but his heart and often brain is in the right place. I think people should be stop *****ing about commentators that are left through and through. I've met him a few times and along with being a nice man, he has some sound ideology.

P.s he is essentially a comedian, i don't see many other left comedians out there that do a better job than him, correct me if i'm wrong?

[Pogue]

I like Mark Steel, he may seem 'middle-class and pretentious' but his heart and often brain is in the right place. I think people should be stop *****ing about commentators that are left through and through. I've met him a few times and along with being a nice man, he has some sound ideology.

P.s he is essentially a comedian, i don't see many other left comedians out there that do a better job than him, correct me if i'm wrong?

I am authentically working class, handsome and hilarious, so I beat Mark Steel.

[Hit The North]

Okay I'm sorry, next time Fox News says something about 'stop eating fried chicken and get off welfare' I'll assume that I have jumped to conclusions and that they aren't in fact racist. Because all assumptions, no matter how well thought out they are,are terrible things. Obviously.



Your comparison doesn't work for two reasons. Firstly, telling people to get off welfare is obviously aimed at the poor, whilst the reference to "fried chicken" is loaded with racism. Steel does not use such language nor does he identify the social class of the people he attacks. You assume that he's attacking workers on the basis of your dislike for the SWP but without any other evidence. Secondly, Fox News is an infamous right wing organisation and their comments can always be interpreted against that context; whereas Mark Steel is a left wing comedian and not renowned for his right wing anti-working class attitudes.


@ what Trystan said about working class people being pissed on trains as support for this underlining classism on display, look at the arguments of WN is this country and America. Black people do commit crime at a higher percentage than white people, so their stats show them, so their racism is justified? Once again, your comparison doesn't work, unless you're claiming that Steel's argument is something like "look at these few drunken louts - that's the working class all over." So even if these individuals he attacks were working class it does not follow that he believes all working class people behave like this. Next you'll be charging Chuck D with racism when he criticises the negative "gangsta" behaviour of some of the youth in his community. :rolleyes:

[Trystan]

@ what Trystan said about working class people being pissed on trains as support for this underlining classism on display, look at the arguments of WN is this country and America. Black people do commit crime at a higher percentage than white people, so their stats show them, so their racism is justified?

Actually, if you care to re-read what I wrote, you'll see that my post was about drunks in general. Presumably you think only working-class people get pissed? Who's being classist here, exactly?

Vanguard1917:


We know exactly the stereotype that he, along with other middle class snobs, has in mind when he refers to 'blokes' going abroad to 'get paralytic' on the cheap with their 'fat' selves - and it ain't nice and polite latte-sipping middle-class Islingtonians. It's the supposedly foul, uncouth working masses.No, we don't.

Also, what exactly is this 'middle-class' I'm hearing about? Surely most people whom we consider 'middle-class' (doctors, teachers, etc.) work for a wage, rather than sit on the board of a corporation or work in the City? And isn't it possible that members of the 'middle-class' can be just as unsatisfied with the capitalist system as anyone else? And most people who are university educated are also considered 'middle-class' and heck, most people on here, including Holden, are students. :lol:

[Fidel Follower]

I am authentically working class, handsome and hilarious, so I beat Mark Steel.

:blink: if you're handsome, i'm the most beautiful man to grace revleft...

[Pogue]

:blink: if you're handsome, i'm the most beautiful man to grace revleft...

would be funny if we'd ever met mate ;)