What would Che think about Sadam? [Archive]

CheViveToday

2nd March 2003, 05:49

I believe Che would have pretty much considered Saddam a tyrant. Che's goal in life was to help people, and he would have detested how poorly Saddam treats the people of Iraq. Perhaps he even would have tried to spark a socialist revolution there, to free the Iraqi people from Saddam's reign of terror. However, keep in mind that he wouldn't have supported a war by the U.S. against Iraq, and he would have hated Bush just as much as he would have hated Saddam.

chaz3

2nd March 2003, 07:49

Absolutly, Che would have despised Saddam for his tyrant ways.But finding a way to deal with the claims of the Kurds and the Shi'ites would have still been a huge dillema.

Charred Phoenix

2nd March 2003, 09:32

Aye, I agree.

Guardia Bolivariano

2nd March 2003, 13:57

Che would have seen Sadam as a greedy thug that isntead of being a US dog did even worst by going at It alone.

redstar2000

2nd March 2003, 14:38

An Arabic-speaking Batista!

:cool:

chamo

2nd March 2003, 14:59

A middle-east Batista is a pretty accurate description. I think Che would have hated him, yet he would want a grass-roots struggle for democracy in Iraq, not a war from the western countires, or any other country for that matter.

YerbaMateJ

2nd March 2003, 20:14

I agree with all of you. Batista all over again in another part of the world. And yes, El Comandante would want the U.S. to mind it's own business. (Yeah, right)

undertheMann

3rd March 2003, 00:38

The US is an Imperialistic nation with greed as its botton line. Wear everyone elses recources out then you will be the last man standing... pretty sick.

Pete

3rd March 2003, 00:54

The reasoning of America, care of Niccolo Machiavelli

"... a prince ought to care little about being thought stingy if he thereby avoids robbing his subjects and can still defend himself ... I say that either the prince spends his own money and his subjects' or someone else's ... 'Harsh times and the newness of the state force me to do such things and to guard all of my lands." ... For to be feared and not to be hated go very well together. This can always be done if the prince refrains from taking the property and women of his subjects. And when it is necessary to take someone's life, it should be when there is sufficient justification and obvious cause. But above all he should refrain from taking the property of others, for men forget the death of their father soon than the loss of their property. Moreover, reasons for taking property are never lacking, and he who begins to live by extortion always finds reasons to take the goods of others where as reasons for taking life are fewer and less tasting ... princes in our times [] have done great things and have cared little for honesty; they have known how to confuse men's minds with thir cleverness and have finally defeated those who put their faith in honesty ... You ought to realize, there fore, that there are two wayts of fighting: one according to lwas, the other with force. The first is appropriate to men, and second to animals. But often the first is not enough, and it is necessary to turn to the second. Therefore, it is necessary for a prince to know very well the methods of both animal and man ... he should choose the natures of the fox and the lion; for the lion cannot defend himself from traps, and the fox cannot defend himself fro the wolves...."

I think that is enough from the Prince to get the idea. Power politics at their finest, in accordance to what Machiavelli wrote!

YerbaMateJ

3rd March 2003, 03:13

Thank you. The truth sucks, but it is sweet to hear people FACE IT. El Comandante vive SIEMPRE!!!!!!

Rastafari

3rd March 2003, 05:24

He would either see Saddam as having some balls for standing up against the USA (as I used to), or see him as a complete idiot whos trying to play the tyrant game (as I see him at the current point). Anyway, Castro has twice the gut and is much smarter. Fascism breeds stupidity, it runs on ignorance, and the people within become no better than the material goods they are forced to make. Its not American concern at this moment, though.
I think Che would agree with me, too.

Wenty

7th March 2003, 00:00

You could argue, as hannah arendt did that "revolutions devour their children", Saddam came to power via a revolution and now look at him, drunk on power.

YerbaMateJ

7th March 2003, 00:24

And---yes I will gush again--- and that is why Comandante Che was so exceptional. He had no desire for Power with a capital P. He wanted Revolution and more Revolution--- no more, no less.

If he were alive today, I think he would be encouraging an armed Iraqi Revolution to overthrow a cruel regime. They need someone with Che's guts in Iraq today.

KRAZYKILLA

7th March 2003, 18:25

Saddam would not be very liked.

Alexius Comnenus

7th March 2003, 23:43

Hmmm Batista was not that cruel against his citizens(still a dictator though).Saddam is evil and has a hige fortune that intends to spend when his American friends let him go and live in another place leaving them to handle oil.

If Cuba had oil do you think it would be still free?I don't think so.As many African countries that are in civil wars backed by CIA on the one side and communist rebels on the other side,Iraq wouldn't receive such attention if it wasn't for oil supplies.

Pakistan is effectivley a dictatoship.Musharaf is a cruel general that because he helps USA he gets no punishment.

Che would be arriving to organise a movement against him,not to install a US puppet government like the Iraqi "exiles"(that left before Saddam rose on power) but to let people freely decide over their future.

YerbaMateJ

8th March 2003, 00:20

You got it, Companero!

comrade1917

17th March 2003, 23:25

I came to this website to find fellow comrades who understand. But instead I found brainwashed idiots who think Saddam is evil. You are not real communists. You are not real revolutionaries. The reason is because you believe all of America's brainwashing lies. They feed you that Saddam is bad, and you say, ok. If you were for real you would think for yourself. Iraq is not a poor country because Saddam is its leader, it is a poor country because of American imperialism. Now, they are going back for more oil. Saddam is the only leader in the world right now that has the courage to stand up to American imperialism and agression. If Che Guevara were alive today, he would recognize Saddam Hussein as a hero and would call you idiots for falling for American brainwashing lies. Do you also believe the lies they tell about communism? You should be ashamed. You are all scandals and do not deserve to have such an honor as to carry on the legacy of Che Guevara. Che Guevara is a real hero, a real communist, and a real revolutionary. He would definitely be very disappointed if he knew that people who called themselves communists were brainwashed by America and did not know what they were talking about like you all are. Oh, Che, I will carry on the revolution! Yes, we, the real, the true will carry on for our hopes and dreams are one! As for all you fakes out there, take a hike, and go be America's poodles.

comrade1917

17th March 2003, 23:29

I am a real communist and I am a real revolutionary! And the communists will prevail!

hawarameen

18th March 2003, 00:37

1917 - where are you from? i mean this planet now, are you from this planet?

i am kurdish, i have lived in iraq and along with 5 million other kurds (not to mention the other millions of iraqi's) i have personally experienced how evil saddam is, so for a start thats your whole argument fucked.

i would ask you who is brainwashed? seriously where are you from because it would reveal an awful lot.

che worked to free the ordinary people from tyranny and although i dont think he would have supported imperialistic america i strongly believe that he would have supported the people of iraq.

saddam is a hero for standing up to america by killing over 200,000 kurds! he is also a hero for stranding up to america by gassing 5000 people! and he is also a hero for standing up to america by invading another country!

who is the idiot? do you read the news? are we talking about the same saddam?

i am not a communist i am a socialist

comrade1917

19th March 2003, 01:02

You want to know where I'm from you little son of a *****? I am a Palestinian. And if anyone knows about atrocities, it's me. How come your stupid American friends care so much about the Kurds and give 3 billion dollars a year in aid to Israel so they can continue to oppress my people? Now, how about that? We Arabs are an oppressed people who have been tyrannized by imperialism, and now you and your little American friends want to carve out some of the Arab homeland to live on. Not to mention your greed for oil. I don't do business with those who are in favor of America's greed and imperialism.

YerbaMateJ

19th March 2003, 05:14

I don't have the slightest clue as to what it is like for either comrade 1917 nor hawarameen because I have never had to go through what they had to go through. I think they both have the right to be livid about what they have experienced as a Palestinian and a Kurd. I think Che would link BOTH situations to the disease of imperialism and the insatiable greed of the United States of America and it's puppets. Che would want to fight to stop any oppressor anywhere.

I guess the best way to know what Che would think is to look at what Che said. I love the spanish version the best:

"The bestialidad imperialista. Bestialidad que no tiene una frontera determinada ni pertenece un pais determinado. Bestias fueron las orlas hitleristas, como bestias son los norteamericanos hoy...que no se puede confiar en el imperialismo, pero ni tantito asi, nada!"

Comrade1917 and hawarameen both sound like they admire and respect Comandante Guevara. If that is the case, maybe there is some common ground somewhere. Or maybe not. But until we find out--- VIVA LA REVOLUCION!!!!!

Hodgo

19th March 2003, 06:03

Quote: from YerbaMateJ on 5:14 am on Mar. 19, 2003
I don't have the slightest clue as to what it is like for either comrade 1917 nor hawarameen because I have never had to go through what they had to go through. I think they both have the right to be livid about what they have experienced as a Palestinian and a Kurd. I think Che would link BOTH situations to the disease of imperialism and the insatiable greed of the United States of America and it's puppets. Che would want to fight to stop any oppressor anywhere.

I guess the best way to know what Che would think is to look at what Che said. I love the spanish version the best:

"The bestialidad imperialista. Bestialidad que no tiene una frontera determinada ni pertenece un pais determinado. Bestias fueron las orlas hitleristas, como bestias son los norteamericanos hoy...que no se puede confiar en el imperialismo, pero ni tantito asi, nada!"

Comrade1917 and hawarameen both sound like they admire and respect Comandante Guevara. If that is the case, maybe there is some common ground somewhere. Or maybe not. But until we find out--- VIVA LA REVOLUCION!!!!!

I agree with Yerba, and I think most people would agree that the Kurds and the Palestians are both oppressed, the only real difference is the Kurds are oppressed by a dictator that USED to be US-backed, the Palestininas are oppressed by a two-faced f*ck and a former (in my opinion a CURRENT) terrorist who still gets support from the US.

Just wondering though, would you be able to give that quote a rough translation for all us non-Spanish speakers?

YerbaMateJ

19th March 2003, 06:14

"The bestiality of imperialism. A bestiality that knows no limits and no national frontiers. The bestiality of Hitler's armies is like the bestiality of the North Americans today...Never trust imperialism. In no way at all. Not one iota!"---ECG

comrade1917

19th March 2003, 19:09

If anyone asks why Arabs hate America, why the entire world hates America, except those who are misinformed, if anyone ever wonders why Palestinians blow use terror against Israelies, here is the answer. Do you know how much it hurts when someone first steals your homeland, then murders your people, and the whole world is blind to what is going on? Look at how Israelies live in their villas and enjoy themselves at outings, when most of us Palestinians have to live in refugee camps in Jenin or Amman, where our roofs leak when it rains. And, still no one recognizes our cause. Sometimes the only instrument that remains is terror. Che Guevara knew that the enemy would never be defeated without violence. We need to fight back, so please, citizens of the world, so empathy for Palestinians, for all the people of the world who have to suffer because of capitalism and imperialism.

YerbaMateJ

19th March 2003, 19:29

We need to fight back, so please, citizens of the world, so empathy for Palestinians, for all the people of the world who have to suffer because of capitalism and imperialism.

Absolutely. Like Che said in his last letter to his kids:
"We should feel within ourselves the pain inflicted on anyone anywhere in the world."

hawarameen

19th March 2003, 23:50

get an education you fuckwit shit for brains.

the kurds have no friends but the mountains, i am TOTALLY against israels policy on palestine and i asked you where you were from because i knew what your answer would be. you support another evil dictator simply because he supports you?? this is the defenition of stupidity. saddam doesnt care about you, he supports ANY anti israeli movement.

there is no point comparing attrocities, we both have been fucked over by many countries many times over many years so tell me what makes you more worthy of freedom than me? or anybody for that matter?

let me tell you something, kurdistan if you are interested to know existed centuries before iraq was even concieved by imperialist britain so if youre talking about homelands then we have every right. We are the largest people without a nation, larger than the palestinians so where is the justice?

ever heard of Slah-al-din? well you may deny that he was kurdish but facts speak for themselves, where was iraq, saudi, jordan etc. then, kurdistan has more right to self determination and freedom as any other arab nation, it is long overdue.

unlike other arab countries we dont give a fuck about oil, we have been doing far better without oil for the past 10 years, while saddam has been starving his people and denying them their basic human rights the kurdish people have been living in relative democracy and the area is far more prosperous than the rest of iraq.

i am even more convinced that you dont have a clue what goes on in the world. you talk about no-one cares about us and do you know how it feels. You are asking ME????? 200,000 people dead 5000 gassed in halabja who cared about us then? this is not a competition kid.

you and me were in the same boat kid, however much you may wish to deny it. the israeli policy on palestine angers me greatly but i will not support the devil in the missguided notion that he supports me and you should not either.

KRAZYKILLA

20th March 2003, 00:20

im with dhul fiqar.

comrade1917

20th March 2003, 17:19

For your information, I am well-educated and I am not stupid. I am intelligent and I know a lot about the world and what is going on. It angers me when you attack me like that and say things about me that are not true. Don't make yourself my enemy. I have nothing against Kurds. I am a communist, and communists are anti-racist. We all have the right to be free as human beings. Just don't support the evil Americans because they come to enslave you, not to liberate you. I hope someday there is a Kurdistan, and someday maybe there will also be a Palestine again. I am just very angry how American and capitalist imperialism has robbed the people of teh world. Don't call me stupid or misinformed or brainwashed, I am none of those things. I am a dedicated comrade in the struggle, and I don't want to make enemies with you just because we disagree about Saddam. Remember, I am an Arab, and Arabs feel differently about Saddam than other people. But anyway, America has been far more brutal than Saddam no matter which way you look at it. If you feel that Saddam is your oppressor, fine, but remember the biggest oppressor of all. Capitalism and America which will hopefully someday fall.

hawarameen

20th March 2003, 20:38

my anger was a direct result of the opening sentence of your third post, i took great offence at that.

saddams history is not based on rumor, speculation or hearsay, they are fact, ask those who have been tortured by him, tell them that saddam is a gret guy.

your comment that kurds want to rob more arab land really got me, i have come across that kind of ignorace many times, who are the kurds? they dont exist, why dont you speak your native arabic? i saw your comment as just another one of those. i am glad you have set me straight in your last post.

Q. if america announced tomorow that israel must pul out of palestine and declare a palestinian state or suffer the consequences what would you think? (hypothetical i agree)

i stand against imperialism totally but there are real people involved and saddam may look like an angel from god to you but the iraqi people are arabs and THEY hate him. people are being oppressed and killed every day. right upuntil the war starts kurdish families are thrown out of their himes in cities like Kirkuk and arabs (including Palestinians) are given their homes. over 100,000 kurdish people live in tents outside Arbil because their homes have been given to arabs.
the people of iraq (your fellow arab brothers) need to be liberated, as a socialist THIS is what i consider more important than another country attaining wealth.

WE SHARE THE SAME BIOLOGY REGARDLESS OF IDEOLOGY

wether you are left or right you are entitled to freedom.

"how many years can some people exist before they're allowed to be free?" this should be the motto of every oppressed individual.

[ i have a friend who when i first met him noticed the top of two of his fingers were very disfigured, i asked him how he did that, he said the iraqi army used pliers and twisted the tips of his fingers]

Saddam, All round good guy!

(Edited by hawarameen at 8:44 pm on Mar. 20, 2003)

comrade1917

20th March 2003, 21:27

Well, I'm glad that we have reached a truce. I just supported Saddam because of what he promised the Arab people. That is why most Palestinians support him. I apologize if I hurt you. You hurt me to, with your comments. I am not stupid and ignorant at all. I care about what's going on and I resist brainwashing. May I ask you how old you are? It sounds like you are a young person like me.

comrade1917

20th March 2003, 21:30

I'm glad we have reached a truce. I'm sorry if I hurt you. You hurt me too with your comments. I am not stupid, ignorant, and brainwashed. May I ask you how old you are because you seem like you are young, like me.

comrade1917

20th March 2003, 21:35

Oh yes, and one more thing, I really took much offense when you told me to "get an education you fuckwit shit without brains."

YerbaMateJ

20th March 2003, 21:39

I just want you 2 to know that your dialogue has been very interesting. I'm glad to see that you are "trucing."

Revolutionaries United!!!

hawarameen

20th March 2003, 23:38

ok ok im sorry, actually i am 26, i find and still do find your support for saddam unbelievable.

how about this - i totaly support israel good on them yeah they are great because they are against arabs and saddam who is an evil dictator who has killed hundreds of thousands of kurds.

of course i am joking but did it make you a bit angry?
by your comments i conclude that you do not give a shit about the innocent working people of kurdistan, you support saddam who is to me as israel is to you. would YOU respond in a hostile way to anyone who took a stand against you and supported your oppressor? i can tell by your rhetoric that you would be very angry indeed.

you are of the oppinion that it does not matter how many people saddam has killed as long as he is the enemy of your enemy. when in actual fact YOU more than anyone should understand what it feels to be oppressed and how that person feels about his/her oppressor.

so my being brainwashed consists of facts of torture, the theft of kurdish homes (which are then given to Palestinians amongst others), Anfal campaign and chemical warfare. i myself was forced to sing we love saddam bla bla bla in school every day.

and YOU support him!

i have the sense to condemn israel for its actions and i cant get my head round how you support him.