Leftist = Atheism

[what's left?]

The dismantling of religious dogmatic restrictions have been lifted through my own personal leftist transformation.

So it seems that to be a leftist is to be an atheist or agnostic.

Why is that??

[Nwoye]

there's a difference between being an atheist and being free from religious dogma.

[Revy]

The dismantling of religious dogmatic restrictions have been lifted through my own personal leftist transformation.

So it seems that to be a leftist is to be an atheist or agnostic.

Why is that??

Religion is not necessarily always theistic. There are many leftists that act in religious dogmatic ways, they just don't admit it, obviously.

[Luís Henrique]

Not to talk about the multitude of reactionary agnostics and atheists.

Luís Henrique

[RedSonRising]

The dismantling of religious dogmatic restrictions have been lifted through my own personal leftist transformation.

So it seems that to be a leftist is to be an atheist or agnostic.

Why is that??


So you're basically saying that since your transformation into a leftist required a certain personal shift in beliefs, all other leftist require this shift in order to be leftists... not true in most cases.

The use of religion and religious institutions to justify historical atrocities and in many cases deny social and/or scientific advancement in human society are usually reasons that deter people from religion in general, specifically leftists. Same with the faith-based culture of religion, which isn't compatible with many leftists who see themselves as too rational to accept the little evidence and theistic arguments found in major religions.

Some may argue that to be a Dialectical Materialist you have to renounce the influence of spiritual involvement with the development or creation of material conditions, but that doesn't mean you can't be a leftist and have religion. Liberation theology, despite its many criticisms for its lack of success in Latin America and elsewhere (though not many other leftist branches can say much more), is a genuine leftist revolutionary movement grounded in the Christian religion.

Your personal matters on Christianity or religion in general don't really have much to do with your apparently misguided assertion that one is not a leftist while one has religion. The historical relationship leftism and religion has is often conflicted, but that is regardless of the definition of what a leftist is, if you define it as a socialist: one who believes the workers should control the means of production in a democratic fashion.

[Eat the Rich]

This is a common misconception. A "leftist" can be religious. A communist can be religious. An anarchist can be religious. Only if you are the Marxist variety of socialism (scientific socialism), you cannot be anything else but an atheist. This is because scientific socialism views things in a materialist dialectic manner, which is incompatible with the religious idealist way of viewing the world.

But I repeat, you can believe in god and still be a communist, socialist, leftist, anarchist etc.

[The Ungovernable Farce]

The dismantling of religious dogmatic restrictions have been lifted through my own personal leftist transformation.

So it seems that to be a leftist is to be an atheist or agnostic.

Why is that??
Bakunin had some good writings on the subject:
The idea of God implies the abdication of human reason and justice; it is the most decisive negation of human liberty, and necessarily ends in the enslavement of mankind, both in theory and practice.
...he who desires to worship God must harbor no childish illusions about the matter, but bravely renounce his liberty and humanity. If God is, man is a slave; now, man can and must be free; then, God does not exist.


This is a common misconception. A "leftist" can be religious. A communist can be religious. An anarchist can be religious.
I'd be very suspicious of anyone who can reconcile opposition to all social hierarchies and belief in total equality with the existence of an infallible divine being, tho.

Only if you are the Marxist variety of socialism (scientific socialism), you cannot be anything else but an atheist. This is because scientific socialism views things in a materialist dialectic manner, which is incompatible with the religious idealist way of viewing the world.

Only if you think that Marxists can't have contradictory ideas. In my experience, they're as capable of it as anyone else.

[Eat the Rich]

I'd be very suspicious of anyone who can reconcile opposition to all social hierarchies and belief in total equality with the existence of an infallible divine being, tho.


The argument would be that god stands outside of society.
Anyways, I think the christian anarchists, while definately existent are not such a big current. Although anarchists are idealist in the philosophical sense, they tend not to be religious for some strange reason:rolleyes:.


Only if you think that Marxists can't have contradictory ideas. In my experience, they're as capable of it as anyone else.

Agreed, but those "marxists" want to look like how a marxist should be, so they are ardent atheists. In general, real marxists don't have contradictory ideas.

[Il Medico]

You can be religious and you can be a leftist at the same time. However, you can't be both and not get harassed by the majority of leftist on this site.

[Devrim]

I don't think that it is possible to have a materialist conception of history, which is shared by most who call themselves anarchists and Marxists, and believe in a god of divine intervention.

Devrim

[Comrade Gwydion]

Bullshit.
On the social side, leftists should value freedom for all sexuality, all ethnicities, both genders and also all religions.

[The Ungovernable Farce]

Agreed, but those "marxists" want to look like how a marxist should be, so they are ardent atheists. In general, real marxists don't have contradictory ideas.
Only if you're defining "real marxists" as "people who don't have contradictory ideas", which seems a bit tautologous (think that's the word I'm looking for?)

[bcbm]

I don't think that it is possible to have a materialist conception of history, which is shared by most who call themselves anarchists and Marxists, and believe in a god of divine intervention.


probably not, but many do it anyway and as long as they'll be on the barricades with me, i don't really care.

[Luís Henrique]

In general, real marxists don't have contradictory ideas.
Which would be a pity, because it would mean that real marxists don't exist.

Luís Henrique

[Revy]

The RCP may be atheist, but does that mean they are not religious? Think about it.:p

[Nwoye]

i'm just curious here, do you think socialism in general or more specifically Marxism is compatible with a "religion" such as buddhism? or to be more specific, a belief in a metaphysical truth beyond human consciousness and sensory perception.

[Tiocfaidh Ar La]

Religion = War. It's as simple as that.

[Ovi]

Religion = War. It's as simple as that.
Capitalism which uses religion as a tool = war

[Tiocfaidh Ar La]

Capitalism which uses religion as a tool = war

Just religion as a whole, with or without Capitalism will always create war. We are better off without.

[spiltteeth]

For anyone interested, a Christian Marxist actually set up a Christian Marxist community, you can read the book here for free : The Christian Marxism of Frederic Hastings Smyth
http://anglicanhistory.org/academic/brown1987/

Sergius Bulgakov, an Christian theologian, writes that socialism is, in his opinion, the only socio-economical system compatible with the Gospels. When Fr. Sergius was young (and before his ordination), he was a Marxist, a member of the Russian Social Democratic Workers' Party (RSDRP) and even, for a brief period of time, a friend of Lenin's.

Thomas J. Haggerty was a Catholic priest from New Mexico, USA, and one of the founding members of the Industrial Workers of the World (IWW). Haggerty is credited with authoring the IWW Preamble, assisting in writing the Industrial Union Manifesto and drawing up the first chart of industrial organization. He became a Marxist before his ordination in 1892 and was later influenced by anarcho-syndicalism.

Camilo Torres Restrepo was often considered to be a Christian Communist, due to his attempts, as a priest, to reconcile Roman Catholicism with Marxism and the communist revolution. He was a key person for Liberation Theology, which was called Communist by both the Vatican and the US government.

There can be and have been many varieties of Christian Communists, even to this day; The True Levellers (aka, the Diggers) founded by Gerard Winstanley; the Mormon community under Brigham Young in Orderville; the League of the Just in Europe during the 1840s; the statement by the French Bishop Pierre Théas that “[t]he revolution must succeed, but it can succeed only if the Church enters the fray, bringing the Gospel. After being liberated from Nazi dictatorship, we want to liberate the working class from capitalist slavery”; Liberation Theology; and the Icarian movement in 19thC France.

One can also draw on various Gospel quotations to support Christian Communism.

In short, Communism is not Atheism, and vice versa.

[RedSonRising]

Just religion as a whole, with or without Capitalism will always create war. We are better off without.


This is a silly interpretation of religion that completely disregards the fact that religion varies greatly in content, manifestation in individual/social life, cultural interpretation, and that there are outside factors that influence and interact with religion. Historical wars involving religion often had underlying prerogatives, and the number of wars started for reasons other than religion vastly outnumber those involving differing religions. Do you really think in a democratic and classless world where at least minimum material conditions are met, different beliefs in spirituality in relation to lifestyle will promote war between groups of people?