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Q
20th September 2009, 14:15
Within the Weekly Worker there has been a debate going on for quite a while now between Jack Conrad and Tony Greenstein on the topic of the Israel /Palestine conflict. Jack Conrad wrote an extensive four page article (http://www.cpgb.org.uk/worker/781/theisrael.php) on it in an attempt to put an end to the matter once and for all. In my opinion this was an awful article for the reasons Tony will describe below. Anyway, I think Tony's article is very good, it cleared up quite a few matters for me too, so I think it would be good to have a discussion on it here :)

For a secular, democratic state (http://www.cpgb.org.uk/worker/784/forademocratic.php)


Tony Greenstein replies to Jack Conrad and explains why Israeli Jews cannot be granted self-determination

Whilst flattered to be the subject of a four-page supplement by Jack Conrad, notwithstanding the “shallowness” of my political theory, I must confess to a certain puzzlement.1

What is the purpose of this logic-chopping, nit-picking and rambling attack? Instead of making out a cogent case for the CPGB’s position of two democratic, secular states - Israel and Palestine - he instead concentrates on a number of quite esoteric and minor points. In addition, of course, to the usual ad hominems.

To deal with the red herrings and straw men first.

No-one disputes that the Israel-Palestine conflict cannot be solved within the borders of what was mandate Palestine. It is indisputably a conflict that can only resolved in the context of the wider struggle for liberation of the Arab countries. And this is a struggle which can only successfully be led the Arab working class and the exploited masses of Egypt and Iraq in particular.


Comrade Conrad’s defence of the idea that the independence of Ireland is a “two-state solution” is the height of absurdity. Two states in the Irish context means two states within Ireland: ie, Ulster and Eire. Unification of Ireland is a single-state solution: ie, one Irish state. And the Protestants also consider themselves a separate people from the Irish. It is only a two-state solution if you look at the Irish conflict through imperialism’s spectacles. Yes, it is true that Irish MPs sat in the British parliament. The same was true of the French colonies. Because of its proximity there was a very close economic and political linkage between the British and Anglo-Irish ruling class, with the latter effectively the former’s junior partners. Ireland was both a victim of British imperialism and a beneficiary of its economic imperialism.
The TUC opposed the immigration of Jews in 1895 not because they were Jews, but because they were immigrant labour. The TUC clung to the idea, and still does, that an influx of foreign labour undermines the conditions of British labour. In so doing it seeks an alliance with its own exploiters. That was why Jewish workers formed their own trade unions in a campaign which successfully weaned British unions away from racism and nationalism. Hence why, in the 1930s, when Moseley’s British Union of Fascists were on the rampage, it was the Catholic dockers of the East End and other trade unionists who stood side by side with their Jewish brothers and sisters at Cable Street, as the Zionists and the bourgeois leaders told them to stay at home.
I have never ‘upheld’ the formulations of the Palestinian National Covenant. Where on earth did Jack get that idea? The Covenant has long since been a dead letter and thus Jack tilts at windmills that have long since rusted over.
If Weyman Bennett of the Socialist Workers Party’s central committee’s slogan was ‘Jews out of Israel’, then that is an illustration of his political illiteracy, not anti-Semitism. Jews are the most privileged section of Israeli society, the beneficiaries of Zionism’s apartheid society.
No-one in their right mind would have advocated returning Jews to Nazi Germany in the 1930s. However, that entirely misses the point. It was the Zionist movement that fought long and hard against any alternative refuge to Palestine, what they termed ‘refugeeism’. The Zionist leaders openly sabotaged the offer at Evian in 1938 of 100,000 places in San Domingo. Jewish refugees were seen as the battering ram to open Palestine to unlimited Jewish immigration.2
The phenomenon of Israel and Zionist groups lobbying western governments not to allow Jewish immigration to their countries is well documented in the case of America and Soviet and German Jewry. However, until recently I was not aware that the Zionist leadership even put pressure on Nazi Germany to only allow Jewish emigration to Palestine.
There is no “hopelessly tangled legal confusion in Israel between being Jewish as a religion and being Jewish as a nationality”. On the contrary, this is a necessary consequence of the fact that it is impossible to define ‘race’ for the simple reason that it is an artificial political construct. The situation in Israel is quite clear. If your grandparents were Jewish, you are Jewish according to the ‘law of return’ (the Nazi definition!). If you wish to marry another Jew or be buried in consecrated land you have to be Jewish halachically: ie, have a Jewish mother, which is a racial definition. Religion is the foundation stone of the Israeli definition of who is part of the Herrenvolk, regardless of religious adherence or practice. That is why, however ‘atheistic’ a Zionist is, his right to settle the land of Palestine is predicated upon a god whose existence he denies! In fact as the Supreme Court made clear in the case of Brother Daniel, there is no difference between being Jewish as a religion and as a nationality in Israel.
This ‘legal confusion’ was not unique to Israel. South Africa and Nazi Germany had their honorary whites and Aryans.
Zionism does not “obstinately” hold on to the idea of a Jewish world nation. On the contrary, it is fundamental to its claim that Israel is a Jewish state, as opposed to being a state of all its citizens. It is this which allows Israel to deny equality and basic democratic rights to its Arab citizens, because the Jewish population in Israel is the advance guard of far greater numbers.
The right to divorce is indeed a fundamental democratic and personal right. However, when one partner lacks all power and is subject to her husband’s reciting ‘I divorce you’ three times, divorce can simply be the entrance ticket to poverty and despair. Individual partnerships and civic entitlement are chalk and cheese. The right to ‘divorce’ in these circumstances can be a ‘right’ to ethnic cleansing and banishment.
It is true that Israelis today would “furiously resist” a single Palestinian state. Just as they furiously resist any measure of equality for Palestinians and they furiously resist the entrance of non-Jewish children to kindergartens, for example. The privileges of apartheid are often furiously defended and that is why relying on the privileged to give up their privileges smacks more of liberalism than Marxism.

Not guilty

Comrade Jack begins by describing me as a “leftish” member of the Alliance for Green Socialism, as well as a supporter of “third-worldist economism”. In both cases he is wrong!

I am indeed a member of AGS, part of a minority of revolutionary socialists. I joined AGS because of the lack of any socialist alternative, not least with the demise of the Socialist Alliance. The rest of Jack’s pontifications are sheer nonsense. In view of his strictures about accurately defining fascism, the sloppy description of the ‘No to the European Union, Yes to Democracy’ electoral bloc as “red-brown” is crazy. There were no fascists inside the bloc. The Communist Party of Britain is a good example of the capitulation to national chauvinism of a left grouping. However, it is not a fascist group or anything resembling such and it does not help clarity of debate to imply otherwise.

In fact I opposed entering an electoral alliance with No2EU, given the political basis on which it stood in the elections. I only supported it critically as the least worst alternative. The CPGB, of course, considered New Labour more progressive politically and urged support for them instead! Presumably ‘British jobs for British workers’ is an advance politically on ‘No to the European Union’.

However, since Jack has now raised it, I should explain that I was asked by AGS to be a candidate in the European elections and refused, both on personal and political grounds. It was only after considerable pressure from comrades in a number of political groups, including the Socialist Party and Socialist Resistance, that I reconsidered, by which time the positions had been filled anyway! But I remain absolutely opposed to socialists calling for withdrawal from the European Union, as if British capitalism is somehow more progressive than its European version.

As Jack feels the need to pigeon-hole me, I have become a “third-worldist economist” politically. He offers no evidence in support of this assertion. True, I do not believe the British and European working classes retain a revolutionary potential. Most of the Marxist left share this view, although they prefer to keep quiet about it as they engage in cross-class alliances. What made the working class potentially revolutionary was its concentration in the cities and large factories. In the past 25 years we have seen the atomisation of the British working class, with the disappearance of the dockers as a particularly militant part. Likewise shipyard workers, car workers and, of course, miners. Instead the last repository of trade union militancy, the RMT, consists of workers who in previous decades were considered ancillary to the great struggles and were normally to be found on the right of the labour movement.

This decline has been witnessed not only in the virtual disappearance of the NUM, but in the unification of the once-mighty TGWU and AEEU, together with an assortment of white collar trade unionists, and the growth of Unison. The idea that these structural changes in the British working class have no political implications is fanciful and unMarxist.

However, Jack is wrong to suggest that I therefore look to a substitute in the national struggles of third-world peoples and their leaders. That may indeed be true of most of the remnants of the International Marxist Group (of which I have never, incidentally, been a member despite Jack’s assertion to the contrary), but it is not my position.

Instead I see a redivision of the working class internationally. It is to the working class of countries such as South Korea that the historic task of overthrowing capitalism falls. Now I may be wrong, of course, and it is possible that the working class of Britain and Europe will wake up. However, I see no evidence for that. I also have no crystal ball, but neither does the CPGB and comrade Jack. What is missing in the socialist movement is any real debate about these issues.

Palestine and Zionism

I do not understand why Jack Conrad repeatedly feels the need to revisit minor disputes at such length in his article, when the key issue is an overall analysis of Zionism and Israel and how best to build solidarity. It appears that I got under his skin, hence the put-down ‘expert’. Issues such as Zionism/Palestine are too important for ‘lines’ to be laid down on the basis of an impressionistic understanding.

Even if he got it wrong, at least Marx took the trouble to learn and understand the operation of British imperialism in India. That was the gist of my criticisms of Jack Conrad, not any attempt to demonstrate superior knowledge. If you do not understand the particular nature of Zionism and its creation, Israel, you will inevitably fail to see the way ahead. It is clear that Jack Conrad sees Israel as just another capitalist country, akin to the USA, France, etc.

For all the reasons that Jack Conrad himself enumerates, such as withdrawal of troops from Iraq, I do not conflate the politics of the CPGB and Alliance for Workers’ Liberty. However, nothing is static in politics. I also took part in the debate that Socialist Organiser held in 1983. Overnight the position of SO jack-knifed from support for a democratic, secular state to a two-statist position.

In August 1982 Martin Thomas could write an open letter to Tony Benn (‘Why does Israel wage war?’) in which he declared: “Can we not support both Israel and the Palestinians, oppose aggression on both sides and seek reconciliation? In truth, no such even-handedness is possible, because, the situation is not even-handed … The aim of a democratic, secular state proclaimed by the Palestinians offers a place for the Israeli Jews as equals. It is compatible with (and we would fight for) maximum cultural and communal rights for them … True, the vast majority of the Israeli Jews do not believe that. But the Palestinians are not willing (and why should they be?) to delay a fight for their rights until the Israeli Jews change their minds, or until socialists develop a united Arab-Jewish working class struggle.”

A few months later and Martin Thomas would be singing the praises of the very two-state solution he denounced in this article! True, Martin Thomas is a particularly sad example of someone who has fallen under the influence of a malign guru, but he is not unique in his servility. Such about-turns are not unknown in the history of the left and nor is the CPGB immune to such shifts.

The hallmark of the ‘debate’ in SO 25-plus years ago was a rejection of the concept of the democratic, secular state. Jack Conrad’s assertion that a unitary, democratic, secular state is “an attempt to reverse the poles of oppression and potentially genocidal” was exactly the argument formulated at the time by Sean Matgamna. It was wrong then and it is wrong now.
Now I know that what remains of the left often becomes so trapped by the inner logic of its political formulations that it loses touch with reality, but the above statement is in a class of its own. Does Jack really think that counterposing a unitary, democratic, secular state to a racist, settler colonial state that defines privilege on the basis of religion is merely reversing the poles of oppression and potentially genocidal? This is to drain words of their meaning.

Nor is it true that a unitary state would mean that most Israeli Jews are to be granted religious, not national, rights. I would be in favour of any concessions that did not involve the re-imposition of the rule of the settlers over the indigenous population - including language rights (which are being taken away at this very moment from Israeli Arabs), cultural and religious rights. Just what national right would Israel’s Jewish population be deprived of, bar the ability to kick and abuse Israel’s Arabs? And, although the majority of Israeli Jews do indeed consider themselves secular, they have already made their Faustian pact with the religious. That is why they reside in Palestine.

The kernel of Jack Conrad’s confusion is his portrayal of the conflict as one between two nations. He is not alone. This was and remains a fundamental misconception. As the Palestinians themselves have discovered, it is the road to transfer. It reduces the expulsions, dispossession, massacres and racism of settler colonialism to a conflict between two peoples. When Jack uses the term “mutual recognition” between two peoples he probably does not realise that this was the key slogan of the overtly Zionist Union of Jewish Students. It reduces a political, economic and social conflict to one of collective psychology. If only ‘they’ could get on. It is the basis of ‘racial awareness’ and ‘diversity training’ in this country as a means of countering racism. At heart it is fundamentally reactionary.

And from this misconception it is but a short road to ‘Two states for two peoples’ and the pro-imperialist and Zionist politics of the AWL. I accept that the CPGB is not a pro-imperialist or Zionist organisation. But neither was the AWL. The road to hell is paved with good intentions and none come better than Jack Conrad.

The real problem with the CPGB’s position is its utopian and absurd slogan of ‘Two democratic, secular states’. It embodies a fundamental contradiction. It is the height of unreality. A two-state solution (or one state plus Palestinian cantonisation) would reinforce and cement sectarianism and conflict. In exactly the same way as partition in Ireland did. A Jewish state in Palestine could not help but be a racist, sectarian state looking for a pretext to march into its weaker neighbour. Two states is the solution of imperialism to the Israel-Palestine conflict, bearing in mind that the USA has no particular interest in West Bank settlements, dispossession or transfer.
Some of the most racist elements of the Israeli ruling elites - people such as Arnon Sofer, the Haifa University professor whose obsession it is to warn of the biological and demographic bomb that the Palestinians represent - support two states precisely because it is a way of permanently depriving Palestinians of any civil or political rights. Two states, as the AWL demonstrates, is a Zionist solution and the tacking on of ‘secular’ to the formulation merely emphasises the contradiction.

In exactly the same way, the creation of a Protestant statelet in Ireland could not help but be a sectarian anti-Catholic state, whose identity was based on supremacy over the nationalist population.

Jack feigns outrage at the comparison between the AWL and the politics he articulates. Yet he has only himself to blame. There are repeated references to ‘extermination’ of Israel’s Jews, genocide and, of course, the Nazi extermination. This was exactly the AWL’s method, drawing a straight line between the anti-Zionist Jewish working class of Europe, who died in the Hitlerite furnaces, and the Israeli military who drop one-ton bombs on the houses of civilians, torture and imprison children, and aid and abet the settlers’ pogroms.

To compare the unarmed peasant population of Palestine, who are now under the thumb of the CIA-trained militias and gangsters of the Palestine Authority, with the fascist butchers of European Jewry is frankly obscene. It demonstrates that Jack Conrad lives in a parallel universe. Is he unaware of the fascination that Israel has for the neo-Nazi soldiers of fortune of the far right? That European fascists, including the BNP, are largely pro-Zionist, because Israel is a model example of how you deal with ‘terrorists’ and Muslims? Even the dumbest Israeli soldier, who scrawls ‘We have come to annihilate you’ on the walls of a Palestinian home, understands that he has more in common with those who perpetrated the extermination of the Jews than with those who died. Because the Jews who died in the holocaust were no more of a threat to their neighbours than the Palestinians of Gaza and the West Bank are today. That is why, despite Zionism’s misuse of the holocaust as a propaganda weapon, Israeli soldiers subconsciously identify their Arab victims with the Jews of pre-war Europe. If extermination were to be on the agenda, it would not be Israel’s Jews who were in danger.
And nor is it just a question of Palestinian suffering. Israel has trained and armed the juntas of South and Central America, the Guatemalan genocidalists of Rios Montt and many and various dictatorships, not least the former apartheid regime in Pretoria. These are the comparisons that Jack Conrad fails to draw on. Zionism did indeed draw certain conclusions from the anti-Semites and Nazis, but they were not the ones that socialists articulate.

When I said that Jack was indifferent to the slogans of the pogromists of Yisrael Beiteinu and the mobs of Acre who shout ‘Death to the Arabs’, he protested vigorously. Yet how else is one to describe the political positions of someone who, in the context of the terrible oppression that the Palestinians undergo, describes the goal of a unitary, secular democratic state as “potentially genocidal”. If extermination and genocide has any relevance, it is for the Palestinians that we should tremble, not their racist overlords and oppressors. Socialists do not sympathise or empathise with fanatic racists and chauvinists, whatever their lineage, merely on the speculative grounds that one day they too may become the oppressed.

‘Into the sea’

Jack Conrad makes unnecessary concessions to the ‘fears’ of the settlers in Israel without any attempt to analyse where such fears come from or even whether there is any rational basis for them. One such example was the possibility he mentions of an “attempt to drive the Jews into the sea”. It was not contextualised, but simply cited as a self-evident truth: “It is fair to say, then, that the projected single Palestinian state would include roughly equivalent numbers of Hebrews and Arabs. Presuming, that is, there is no forcible movement of peoples. No attempt to drive the Jews into the sea.”

The Palestinian origin of this phrase, as Jack now concedes, is apocryphal: ie, a myth. As he also admits, it is a myth of Zionist creation. Strange though it might be, I do not believe that socialists should repeat, without comment, the propaganda formulations of colonisers. The fact is that the only people who were ever driven into the sea were the Arabs of Haifa.3 The purpose it served, however, was to turn polar opposites around. Instead of the actuality of Palestinian dispossession it served to focus the question on the fears of Israeli Jews, reinforcing the idea that the Palestinians were the reincarnation of the Nazis, whose sole purpose was to drive Jews into the sea: ie, exterminate them.

But Jack Conrad’s quite amazing conclusion - “and this is the moot point” - is that what matters is that it is believed on the streets of Tel Aviv, etc. To Jack this matters a great deal. Actually it does matter, but not for the reasons that he gives. It matters that settler populations, as part of their own justifications, will ascribe violence and genocidal intentions to the very people they are busy killing and dispossessing. But there is nothing unique in this. The reaction of the oppressed has always been the excuse for further violence of the oppressor. This is one of the features of settler colonialism, as those who remember the old westerns will recall - the Indians were always bad, rotten and above all violent.

Fascism

Jack in his original article asserted: “Conventionally, in Britain at least, what passes for the mainstream left damns Zionism as almost akin to fascism”.4 And what examples does he give to back this up? The Revolutionary Communist Group, the Workers Revolutionary Party, the Socialist Labour League, the Syrian Communist Party and American ex-leftist James Petras! Leaving aside the last two, who are not British, the first three are hardly “mainstream left”. In fact the mainstream left was historically pro-Zionist and today advocates a two-state solution.

But apparently I am also guilty of this sin, or rather Jack Conrad has difficulty in assimilating what is a quite simple argument. I have made many comparisons between Nazism and Zionism, not because I believe that Zionism is “akin” to fascism, but because in terms of their racist policies and practices, there are without doubt similarities between Zionism and Nazism. The Reich citizenship law, which stripped German Jews of their nationality and introduced a distinction between nationality and citizenship, thus undoing one of the fundamental aspects of the bourgeois revolutions and emancipation, is mirrored by the law of return and Israel’s citizenship law.
There are many similarities in the Nazi attitude to Jews and the Zionist attitude to non-Jews. The emphasis on racial purity, which in Israel means that some one-third of a million, mainly Russian, Jews cannot marry other Jews because the rabbinate does not consider them Jewish5 or the legal ban on Israeli Arabs marrying Palestinians of the occupied territories and living together in Israel. These are the Mischlinge (mixed race) of Israel. The same, of course, was true of South Africa with its coloureds.

Zionism, like all separatist movements, although originally a reaction to anti-Semitism, was unique in accepting the terms of reference of their oppressors. Just as radical feminists end up with a biologically determinist outlook, so Zionism too has always accepted the framework of the debate as set by anti-Semites - except that Jews are now in the driving seat. From its inception, Zionist ideologues were fascinated by social Darwinism, theories about the survival of the fittest and the need to select only the best ‘human material’ as immigrants.

But I have never argued that Zionism is fascist. Even the revisionist wing of Zionism, although attracted by European fascism (to the extent that in the 1930s its Hebrew paper Doar Hayom included a ‘Diary of a fascist’ column by Abba Achimeir), was not a fascist movement. It never sought the destruction of the Histadrut, the Zionists’ Jewish-only labour movement in the Yishuv (Jewish Palestine), since the Histadrut was creating the very state that the revisionists desired. Indeed the labour Zionists were more racist than their revisionist opponents! It was Histadrut which pioneered Jewish labour only (which the revisionists opposed, given their petty bourgeois base!). Their attacks and massacres of Palestinians such as Deir Yassin have become notorious, but that is because the labour Zionist movement sought to publicise them, whilst keeping under wraps their own butchery in Tantura, Safsaf, Dawayme, Lydde and Ramleh, etc.

Unlike Jack Conrad, I was involved in student politics from 1974 onwards. No platform for fascists and racists, which I supported, was never intended to be applied to Zionists or any other form of racism, such as those who support immigration controls. It was a defensive measure against those who sought to destroy others’ democratic rights. When it was misapplied, as it occasionally was, then I and others on the left opposed it. What in fact some misguided activists did was to cut off funding from Zionist societies (which nonetheless called themselves ‘Jewish’). Zionist societies, speakers or organisers were never no-platformed.. In fact the major example of no-platforming Zionism was not that given by comrade Conrad, but Sunderland Polytechnic.

However, whereas the Zionists blew out of all proportion the attempts by well-meaning student activists to support Jewish but not Zionist societies, the far greater example of the misuse of no platform - by the Union of Jewish Students, against myself and other Jewish anti-Zionists - is ignored. In the case of the AWL, they consciously ignored, indeed tacitly supported, the attempted banning of people like myself. In the case of Jack Conrad I will put it down to ignorance of what actually happened.

Another red herring of Jack is his conflation of the destruction of the Israeli state and the people who reside within its borders. In fact I use the term ‘destruction’ quite deliberately: to emphasise the peculiar nature of the settler colonial state of Israel. It is a state which actively seeks to impoverish and marginalise 20% of its own population. Even the bourgeois states of Britain and the USA seek to eradicate the most obvious examples of racism and pursue equal opportunities and multi-racial strategies.
In Israel the ‘anti-racist’ law was supported by the Jewish-Nazi rabbi, Meir Kahane, because it excepted any discrimination based on religion! Incidentally the term ‘Judaeo-Nazi’ was coined by the distinguished scholar and religious philosopher, professor Yeshayahu Leibowitz, to describe the mentality of the settlers. It was used by Israel Shahak, another professor at the Hebrew University, and the late Baruch Kimmerling, a sociologist at the Hebrew University who called Israel a “Herrenvolk republic”.

By the way, to describe someone like Avigdor Lieberman as a fascist is not to therefore say that even the party he leads is a fascist party. It is a description of the man.

Jack Conrad mourns in advance the disappearance of Israel: “It would be erased, obliterated, destroyed.” This is instructive. Just what is there to mourn about the disappearance of a state which has brought untold misery to millions of Arabs and has presided over massacres, pogroms and a vicious, Nazi-style racism against the indigenous population? We should welcome the fact that one day its Jewish citizens will be free from the permanent insecurity that comes with oppression. There is no comparison whatsoever with the attempted abolition of Poland, which had welcomed the immigration of Jews from western Europe in the 12th and 13th centuries. Poland was a nation which had struggled to achieve national independence and, once it did, it turned on its Jewish citizens. Israel is an artificial state, the product of western colonialism and the romanticists of the Victorian era.

Self-determination

Like all other issues to do with Zionism and Palestine, Jack makes heavy weather of this. There is no need to cite the biblical authorities of the left, Lenin and Trotsky, because the matter is quite simple. Self-determination only arises in the case of those who are denied it. You do not demand equality for men in a patriarchal society or freedom for whites in a society that discriminates against black people. Or if you do the chances are that you are a misogynist and/or racist.

Likewise the idea that what is at issue is self-determination for a people that has its boot on the neck of the Palestinians is frankly obscene. This is the politics of the AWL. Israel, for reasons which are economic, political and geographical, is in a permanent conflict with the Palestinian Arabs. It is the only major settler-colonial state left. Its real intention is to ‘transfer’ Israel’s Arabs once the time is right. Indeed the identity of the “Israeli Jewish nation” is based upon the oppression of the other. That is the glue that binds Misrahi and Oriental Jews to the Ashkenazis. It is the bond between the religious and secular. Take that away and what is left?

Of course, it makes no sense to talk about self-determination for the British or American nations. They determine others; they are not subjugated. Of course, if, like France during the war, they are occupied by a bigger and stronger power, we will support their right to resist occupation, but this is a fantasy of the imagination. I prefer to deal with reality. What is termed the Israeli Jewish nation was not formed as a result of the historical process of unification of lesser parts. It did not have a bourgeois revolution: on the contrary it acted to prevent the natural political and historical development of the Arab world.

The fact that there are five million settlers does not make them a nation. Language and territory - yes; but a nation is something more than that. It is an association of people for whom class divisions are the most important. As Count Clermont-Tonnerre put it in 1789, “To the Jews as individuals everything, to the Jews as a nation nothing”.6 Israel, however, is not a state that encompasses all its citizens regardless of religion or ethnicity. Quite the contrary: it is a state of only one section of the populace. To call that a nation is to confer the same title on whites in South Africa, the French in Algeria and the Protestants in Ulster.

The disappearance of the Israeli state and the living together of Jew and Arab as equal, regardless of religious difference (bearing in mind that in Israel religion and nationality are the same), cannot come quickly enough. Unlike Jack I shall not engage in any sentimental mourning for the monster that Israel has become.

This debate has been very interesting, but it has also been very academic. What the Palestinians urgently require is solidarity, not just pontification. Of course, I am proud of my role in building solidarity with the Palestinians and opposition to Zionism in Britain. When I first became an anti-Zionist there were just a handful of Jewish anti-Zionists. Zionism had rewritten Jewish opposition to its creed out of most texts. Today there is a flourishing and growing Jewish opposition to Zionism. I particularly welcome the new found interest in Bundism and secular alternatives to Zionism.

But the CPGB, despite Jack’s description of it as “militantly anti-Zionist”, has not in practice played any role in the solidarity or boycott movement. To adopt a programme without it having any effect practically is to ape the mistakes of the fast disappearing revolutionary left.

And finally. I suggested that Jack and myself, and others, debate these issues in a comradely fashion. I am therefore surprised that despite this suggestion, the CPGB did not think of holding such a debate at its Communist University.
http://www.cpgb.org.uk/images/mailto_button.gif ([email protected]?subject=/worker/784/forademocratic.php) Respond to this article ([email protected]?subject=/worker/784/forademocratic.php)
Notes

‘The Israel-Palestine question once again’ (http://www.cpgb.org.uk/worker/781/theisrael.php) Weekly Worker August 6.
See, for example, SB Beit-Zvi Post-Ugandan Zionism on trial: a study of the factors that caused the mistakes made by the Zionist movement during the holocaust Tel Aviv 1991.
See I Pappe The ethnic cleansing of Palestine Oxford 2007, p103.
‘Zionist imperatives and the Arab solution’, January 22.
See ‘Rabbis ban marriage for Israeli “untouchables”’:www.counterpunch.org/cook08062009.html (http://www.counterpunch.org/cook08062009.html)
Encyclopaedia Judaica Vol 6, p7.

The Idler
20th September 2009, 16:34
Anarchists advocate a "no-state" solution. But more immediately I am inclined to agree with Tony Greenstein and a one-state solution.

Revy
20th September 2009, 17:56
I support a one-state solution. As for the name, Palestine fits as it was historically called that and did not only refer to Arabs but to Jews as well.

chegitz guevara
20th September 2009, 20:35
I favor a workers state solution.

Q
20th September 2009, 20:41
I favor a workers state solution.
I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic here, but both Tony Greenstein and Jack Conrad are communists and as such don't see any way out of this conflict under capitalism. So yes, the context of this discussion is indeed in the case of socialism. This serves as an indepth discussion in which two socialist solutions are defended: the two-(workers)state solution (within a federation of the middle-east) or a one-(workers)state solution (within a federation of the middle-east). As this formulation is rather long and it overlaps a lot, it is more commonly shortened to one-state versus two-state.

I'm posting this here also because both the one-state as the two-state solutions have their backers. The CWI for example defends a two-state solution.

Dimentio
20th September 2009, 20:46
This is a lolbertarian proposal on how to solve this Gordian knot.

http://mises.org/story/3285

But evidently, even if we have a two-state solution in that region, no matter what form of government, both states need to have a common economic administration to some extent given the unnatural borders between them.

The Levant west of Jordan and south of Lebanon is a natural economic unit.

LOLseph Stalin
20th September 2009, 20:58
While I am inclined to support a two-state solution that could be problematic under Capitalism due to the zionist Imperialism. Nothing is preventing them from expanding now so why would an extra border? A two-state solution would be ideal, but would probably only work under Socialism. Historically, the two sides were able to co-exist historically. If there were to be Socialist states for both the Palestinians and Jews I think it would probably work. However, under the current system such a solution would be impossible as everything is based around profit and power. :rolleyes: With that said, under Capitalism, the ideal solution would be for both sides to unite in order to overthrow the oppressive Israeli government. Of course, currently that seems impossible so support for the Palestinian struggle against oppression is the next best thing.

Q
20th September 2009, 21:20
While I am inclined to support a two-state solution that could be problematic under Capitalism due to the zionist Imperialism. Nothing is preventing them from expanding now so why would an extra border? A two-state solution would be ideal, but would probably only work under Socialism. Historically, the two sides were able to co-exist historically. If there were to be Socialist states for both the Palestinians and Jews I think it would probably work. However, under the current system such a solution would be impossible as everything is based around profit and power. :rolleyes: With that said, under Capitalism, the ideal solution would be for both sides to unite in order to overthrow the oppressive Israeli government. Of course, currently that seems impossible so support for the Palestinian struggle against oppression is the next best thing.
I too was supportive of the two-state solution. Greenstein's article makes some points that make me rethink that position. One of the most important points is that Israel is not a nationstate, i.e. not a state based on a nationality. It is a Zionist state based on being a Jew. If you're not a Jew, you're not given the Israeli nationality. So, the Israeli state is only a state for a part of its citizens. In this context Greenstein equals selfdetermination to Zionists to the selfdetermination to the whites in South-Africa, a complete absurdity.


The fact that there are five million settlers does not make them a nation. Language and territory - yes; but a nation is something more than that. It is an association of people for whom class divisions are the most important. As Count Clermont-Tonnerre put it in 1789, “To the Jews as individuals everything, to the Jews as a nation nothing”.6 Israel, however, is not a state that encompasses all its citizens regardless of religion or ethnicity. Quite the contrary: it is a state of only one section of the populace. To call that a nation is to confer the same title on whites in South Africa, the French in Algeria and the Protestants in Ulster.

Sam_b
20th September 2009, 21:26
That is absolutely ridiculous, INH. Why on earth would revolutionaries wish to support an illegal state which was only formed by the forced seizure of Palestinian land? You say that Palestinians and Jews have lived side by side for thousands of years - this is true - so why in the next breath do you support an artificial border between them, the whole of landmass which was stolen from the Palestinian people anyway.

What the two-state solution does in the current climate is legitimise the terror that the IDF and the state of Israel has been dishing out to Palestinian peoples since its very formation, and rewards this state for the genocide which it has been persuing. Not to say that this also supports a divided state also - Gaza and the West Bank with Israel stuck right across it.

The only solution which we should be supporting is a one-state solution - we should call for an immediate return to 1967 borders, as a step towards a one-state of Palestine where Jews and Arabs can live side-by side again.

Devrim
20th September 2009, 21:30
I think that the whole basis of the discussion is quite strange really. The working class in Palestine is so incredibly week that any 'solution' within the near future will be by definition an imperialist one.

It doesn't really matter whether socialists in the west are calling for a 'one state', 'two state', or even an anarchist 'no state' solution. The working class is not in a position to impose a solution of any kind, and talk of socialist federations is merely that, talk.

I don't really think it is possible for the working class in Palestine to escape from its current position outside of a widespread, powerful, regional and international class movement, and at that point the questions will be very different.

Devrim

Yehuda Stern
20th September 2009, 22:19
We have also written something regarding that debate which was published in the letters section of Weekly Worker. I'll quote some of an edited version of it here:


The previous position you held, advocating a two state solution, is very problematic, as you yourself concluded. As a matter of fact, this is the official position of US imperialism, including Bush. Of course, Marxists do not simply put a minus sign where imperialism places a plus, and adopt an opposed position... However, in this case the imperialists’ support for a two state solution is no accident. Indeed, it is not very different from the Apartheid regime's solution of an imperialist state for the whites and Bantustans for the majority black population.


...Given the number of refugees and the size of the land, it’s easy to see that after the return of the refugees, Palestinians will be a majority everywhere. There would only be two ways, then, that there could be a sovereign Jewish state in Palestine – either by ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians in the area designated for it, or by making sure that Jews have political privileges relative to Palestinians, i.e. by making formal apartheid the form of the regime in this very strange democratic state. Those who favor a two-state solution should state clearly what they think is best for the workers and oppressed: ethnic cleaning or apartheid minority rule. They should also explain why they think they have a chance of convincing Palestinians to support such a position, in light of the fact that last time it was tried, back in 1948, it did not do them much good.



We agree with your observation that "a solution cannot be achieved in the absence of a movement beyond Israel-Palestine." It is not difficult to understand the reasons for that: On the one hand, the Israeli population, including the Israeli Jewish working class, remains loyal to the Zionist state, due to the privileges it receives from it and their status as colonialist settlers. On the other hand, the Palestinians do not have the strength to defeat the Zionist military.


Yet you do not address the key question: what is the class character of this movement, which must challenge not only the Zionist state, but also the other pro-imperialist Arab regimes and the imperialist states themselves? This is a key question for Marxists, and in particular those who reject the two stage theory of the Mensheviks and the Stalinists, and hold to the theory of the Permanent revolution.


We believe that it is the Arab, Kurdish, Iranian, and Turkish working class alone that can fulfill the tasks of creating a Palestinian state and freeing the Middle East from imperialism. The Palestinian workers and other exploited classes can and will play a leading role in such a movement. The best Jewish workers will also be able to join it, and of course the role of the proletarian party is not only to do every effort to win them over, but also to win the sympathetic passivity or at the very least neutrality of most of the rest of the Israeli Jewish population, with clear promises of its freedom from racial or ethnic oppression.


But once the working class will overthrow the treacherous bourgeois regimes and the Zionist state, why should we form a nation state for the Israelis rather than a Palestinian workers state from the river to the sea, where Israeli Jews who are willing to live in such a state will have safety and the chance to develop their own progressive culture?


You argue that the Israelis constitute a nation. We do not think so. The Israelis have the objective requirements of becoming a nation (territory, unified economy, language, common psychology), yet the majority of Israeli Jews do not recognize themselves as a separate nation and see themselves as part of a world Jewish nation. They see Israel not as an Israeli state but as the Jewish state of all Jews. Without this element of national consciousness, a nation does not exist. But even if the Israelis were a nation, we as Leninists would not support its right for self-determination. We only support the right of self-determination of oppressed nations. The defense of this right for imperialist nations is the role of the imperialist state.

It goes on to quote Trotsky on the black republic in South Africa, showing that there's nothing nationalist from a Marxist point of view about a position of one Palestinian state, as long as this will be a workers state.



The only solution which we should be supporting is a one-state solution - we should call for an immediate return to 1967 borders, as a step towards a one-state of Palestine where Jews and Arabs can live side-by side again.

This smacks of PFLP style tailing of Fatah - we want a one-state solution, but support a return to 67 borders, essentially a two state solution, as a step forward. But as we can see from Gaza, an Israeli military pullout can often play into the hands of the Zionists. If we want one state, we should put out the demand for one state, for driving out the Zionist army out of Gaza, the West Bank, everywhere.

Of course, if the Zionist army pulls out of the West Bank, the ISL would hardly protest. But the truth is that to put that forward as a perspective only builds illusions in the possibility of peace with the Zionists.

As for Devrim's post, I must say I'm puzzled. Of course a regional movement is required - does this mean we should not discuss questions of position or perspective regarding the national question in Palestine?

Devrim
20th September 2009, 22:43
As for Devrim's post, I must say I'm puzzled. Of course a regional movement is required - does this mean we should not discuss questions of position or perspective regarding the national question in Palestine?

I don't see any problem in discussing it. I just think that the wrong questions are being asked. I don't really think that there is a solution to the national question within capitalism.

Any solution within capitalism must by neccesity be an imperialist solution, the most likely being, in my opinion, a one State of Israel plus a Palestinian bantustan 'solution'. The idea of two independent democratic states living side by side is a myth. In the imperialist epoch true 'national independece' is impossible for small states. All of them end up becoming a pawn in the games of the larger powers.

The idea of a one state solution would basically mean the destruction of the current state of Israel. I don't really see this happening without a major adjustment in the balance of power, and would quite possibly lead to mass ethnic cleansing of the Jewish population.

Neither of them would be a socialist solution, and neithr if them sound particulary appealing.

Most importantly, however, is the weekness of the working class. The Palestinian working class is possibly the most defeated in the region. I can't see it being able to impose itself outside of a period of open international revolutionary struggle, and a period such as this will deeply change the nature of the questions that need to be asked.

Devrim

bricolage
21st September 2009, 16:27
There is a interesting article by Uri Gordon called 'Anarchism, Nationalism and New States' on this issue but I can't seem to find it on the internet anywhere. I have it in an Anarchists Against the Wall pamphlet but apparently it's in 'Anarchy Alive!'.

To try and summarise some bits he writes there are at least four coherent ways in which we can deal with the dilemma of a Palestinian state.

1. Endorsement of Palestinian statehood as a necessary pragmatic position. States have a track record of hostility to stateless people so we can recognise Palestinian statehood as a viable way to alleviate short term oppression.
2. Opposition to the existence of states is opposition to the state sytem as a whole thus the number of states in the world adds or subtracts nothing form our assessment of how closely the world corresponds to our ideals. In this respect Palestinians already live under a state, an Israeli one, and so the formation of a Palestinian state would create a quantitative change and not a qualitative one.
3. A Palestinian state can be supported as a strategic choice, a desirable stage in a long term struggle. The reduction of everyday violence on both sides could do a great deal to open up political space for new struggles and thus would constitute a positive development.
4. Whether or not we support a Palestinian state is a moot point as actions that can be taken in solidarity with Palestinians can be taken without reference to the question of statehood. The every day actions of resistance that can be taken in defense of the Palestinian people are immediate steps to preserve people's livelihoods and dignity, not a step towards statehood.

I don't actually agree with much of this, I think it focuses a lot on reformist, contradictory ideas but at the same time it is an interesting approach and I think does have some merit to it. I think the last point is the most important in that we can act in solidarity with Palestinian people, and all oppressed people, without doing so in the paradigm of future statehood. We know our end goal, a stateless, classless society, and our job in the present should be to take whatever we can towards it, to quote Malatesta;

"Not whether we accomplish anarchism today, tomorrow, or within ten centuries, but that we walk towards anarchism today, tomorrow, and always."

With this in mind we have to understand that as there is oppression and exploitation now there will be under two states, one state, or any form of capitalist or statist 'solution'. Therefore we know the only solution can be a stateless society devoid of hierarchy and it is not our place to propose any idea of an alternative that is not that. As such to term such alternative as any form of solution inherently implies that there can be a solution to oppression under capitalism. So we support the oppressed but we do so as part of our grand long term strategy not as some sort of way to grant them the rights to oppress themselves. Once we say 'one state solution' or 'two state solution', we immediately contradict our held beliefs and it makes them into an end in themselves and because it legitimises capitalism as a solution in itself.

Q
21st September 2009, 18:28
1. Endorsement of Palestinian statehood as a necessary pragmatic position. States have a track record of hostility to stateless people so we can recognise Palestinian statehood as a viable way to alleviate short term oppression.
2. Opposition to the existence of states is opposition to the state sytem as a whole thus the number of states in the world adds or subtracts nothing form our assessment of how closely the world corresponds to our ideals. In this respect Palestinians already live under a state, an Israeli one, and so the formation of a Palestinian state would create a quantitative change and not a qualitative one.
3. A Palestinian state can be supported as a strategic choice, a desirable stage in a long term struggle. The reduction of everyday violence on both sides could do a great deal to open up political space for new struggles and thus would constitute a positive development.
4. Whether or not we support a Palestinian state is a moot point as actions that can be taken in solidarity with Palestinians can be taken without reference to the question of statehood. The every day actions of resistance that can be taken in defense of the Palestinian people are immediate steps to preserve people's livelihoods and dignity, not a step towards statehood.
These don't sound like very anarchist points, or very coherent ones at all. These points is what I hear particularly from the reformist left and I'm a bit disheartened to hear anarchists make such logic. Also, I don't see what these points add to the discussion.


With this in mind we have to understand that as there is oppression and exploitation now there will be under two states, one state, or any form of capitalist or statist 'solution'.
The context of the discussion is what a socialist alternative would look like. Capitalism offers no way out, we all agree on that.

bricolage
21st September 2009, 21:21
These don't sound like very anarchist points, or very coherent ones at all. These points is what I hear particularly from the reformist left and I'm a bit disheartened to hear anarchists make such logic. Also, I don't see what these points add to the discussion.

I agree they aren't very anarchist points and Gordon in his work is quite reformist, I don't think he is generally a very good writer. I'm not defending them, except the last one.

To be honest I should have just posted the last one as my own and not the rest!


The context of the discussion is what a socialist alternative would look like. Capitalism offers no way out, we all agree on that.Yes but I'm saying that a one state or two state or solution would be inherently capitalist in itself, so I find this whole discussion unfruitful. As Devrim notes any apparent 'solution' will be an imperialist one and whether it is one state or two states it wont be good enough and we will still be fighting for an actual solution so why argue for either of them?

Red Dreadnought
21st September 2009, 22:33
Only one transitional state: the World Union of Comunes (or Republics) of Working Councils.

But such an state only could be a consequence of revolutionary fight and self-conciousness of working class. This is what we have to enhance, no promoting any kind of bourgeois state.

Spirit of Spartacus
22nd September 2009, 13:45
Only one transitional state: the World Union of Comunes (or Republics) of Working Councils.

But such an state only could be a consequence of revolutionary fight and self-conciousness of working class. This is what we have to enhance, no promoting any kind of bourgeois state.

We all want that. Even us evil "Stalinists" and "Third-worldists".

But how do we GET there? That is the question.

Spirit of Spartacus
22nd September 2009, 13:55
@ Devrim

Comrade, you pointed out quite correctly that:



I don't see any problem in discussing it. I just think that the wrong questions are being asked. I don't really think that there is a solution to the national question within capitalism.

Any solution within capitalism must by neccesity be an imperialist solution, the most likely being, in my opinion, a one State of Israel plus a Palestinian bantustan 'solution'. The idea of two independent democratic states living side by side is a myth. In the imperialist epoch true 'national independece' is impossible for small states. All of them end up becoming a pawn in the games of the larger powers.


You are correct if you say that there can be no FINAL solution to the national question within capitalism.

I agree with you there.

But then again, since the national question presents itself to us under this current world-system, we also have to make strategies for engaging with it WITHIN the current world-system.

Take a smaller example. There's a union which is fighting a random capitalist for better wages. Both you and I agree that while capitalism lasts, the workers of the union won't really get full justice. Any arrangement made within capitalism will allow the capitalist to continue exploiting them, perhaps at a reduced rate, but that's it.

So, are you going to oppose the union-based struggle of those workers, saying that it distracts us from the true struggle, which is against capitalism?

Of course not. The communist position is to ENTER this struggle, to try to make it as successful as possible, and at the same time introduce our ideas into the movement and hope to direct it ultimately towards the demise of capitalism, even if we know that the union won't be picking up arms and setting up barricades the day after our first meeting with them.

When communists work with a national liberation struggle, the idea is the same. We know that there can be no COMPLETE liberation until the fall of capitalism-imperialism and the rise of a global socialist order.

However, we also need to recognize those national liberation struggles as being a threat to the capitalist-imperialist system in its current form.

Its true that the fight for national liberation in a certain area might result in the local bourgeoisie taking over, after the defeat of the imperialist bourgeoisie.

SHould we oppose this struggle then?

Why, comrade, why? If the rise of a local nationalist bourgeoisie results in somewhat lesser exploitation for the workers of a certain area, should we close our eyes to the struggle against the imperialist bourgeoisie, which is INFINITELY more powerful and more exploitative than any local third-world bourgeoisie?

No, all we can hope to do is to gain sufficient RESPECT as members of the national liberation struggle to be able to turn the fight against the local nationalist bourgeoisie too.

And its been done before, throughout the 20th century.

But then, I suppose you wouldn't be very supportive of the Vietnamese struggle, for instance. Do correct me if I'm wrong.

mannetje
22nd September 2009, 14:05
They should do a 50/50 split of Israel. 50% Is Palestina 50% is Israel.
The Palestinians should get more ground to use for things like agriculture.
But that asks for a higher power to split them up equaly. Israel rather would go in to another war than accept that.

Q
22nd September 2009, 15:02
They should do a 50/50 split of Israel. 50% Is Palestina 50% is Israel.
The Palestinians should get more ground to use for things like agriculture.
But that asks for a higher power to split them up equaly. Israel rather would go in to another war than accept that.
One of the central points of the article in the OP is that this is not a solution as the Israel state is based on a settlers idea in which the state only recognizes Jews as its citizens and all others are just second ranks. In other words: Israel is not a nationstate, like for example the Netherlands. Even a 50/50 divide will not solve anything.

For more arguments, read the article.

Pogue
22nd September 2009, 15:12
This situation is very complex. I can honestly only really see a solution in a worker's republic in the area, i.e. a revolution.

LOLseph Stalin
23rd September 2009, 06:23
That is absolutely ridiculous, INH. Why on earth would revolutionaries wish to support an illegal state which was only formed by the forced seizure of Palestinian land? You say that Palestinians and Jews have lived side by side for thousands of years - this is true - so why in the next breath do you support an artificial border between them, the whole of landmass which was stolen from the Palestinian people anyway.

What the two-state solution does in the current climate is legitimise the terror that the IDF and the state of Israel has been dishing out to Palestinian peoples since its very formation, and rewards this state for the genocide which it has been persuing. Not to say that this also supports a divided state also - Gaza and the West Bank with Israel stuck right across it.

The only solution which we should be supporting is a one-state solution - we should call for an immediate return to 1967 borders, as a step towards a one-state of Palestine where Jews and Arabs can live side-by side again.

As much as I would like to support the Palestinians and Israelis living side by side in one state I feel that in the current situation it's impossible. You have the Israeli government which only wants Jews living within Israel and then Hamas which is Anti-Semitic. This in itself is problematic. Until these attitudes are eliminated, which I feel is almost impossible without revolutionary struggle there will continue to be conflict.

9
23rd September 2009, 07:42
As much as I would like to support the Palestinians and Israelis living side by side in one state I feel that in the current situation it's impossible. You have the Israeli government which only wants Jews living within Israel and then Hamas which is Anti-Semitic. This in itself is problematic. Until these attitudes are eliminated, which I feel is almost impossible without revolutionary struggle there will continue to be conflict.

Your position, with all due respect, is completely incoherent and comes across as little more than a poorly-veiled apologism for Zionist imperialism. I am not trying to be accusatory, nor am I saying that these are your conscious intentions. But that is the only cause served by the position you hold.

You start by saying, "As much as I would like to support the Palestinians and Israelis living side by side in one state I feel that in the current situation it's impossible."
This is circular logic, really. I would certainly hope that no one here has deluded themselves into believing that any remotely positive resolution to this "conflict" is achievable without "revolutionary struggle". Or, those here who do hold such a position, are undoubtedly the embodiment of reformism. A Palestinian workers' state would clearly be the product of "revolutionary struggle". There will be no solution to this "conflict" without "revolutionary struggle", and I cannot emphasize that enough.
So assuming the necessity of "revolutionary struggle" to bring about any solution to the present situation is now understood, would you still support "separate but equal" Palestinian and Israeli States - the "two-state solution"? Or would you support a single Palestinian workers' state with full and equal rights for Jews?
And if the former, the logical conclusion would be that you believe there is something inherent to Jews and Arabs that prevents the possibility of coexistence, even in a workers' state created by "revolutionary struggle", which is, at best, an exceptionally strange position to hold.

Spirit of Spartacus
23rd September 2009, 07:43
"Israel is really bad, Hamas is anti-Semitic, so lets support the Workers and Peasants instead..." :lol:

And then we wonder why we leftists aren't taken as seriously now as we once were...

Q
16th October 2009, 16:45
The debate continues (http://www.cpgb.org.uk/worker/789/mapping.php). And here are recordings of the same debate: part 1 (http://cpgb.podbean.com/2009/10/11/israel-palestine-whats-the-solution/), part 2 (http://cpgb.podbean.com/2009/10/11/israel-palestine-part-2/), part 3 (http://cpgb.podbean.com/2009/10/11/israel-palestine-part-3/).


Mapping a viable future

http://www.cpgb.org.uk/worker/789/images/mapping.jpg
Debating Israel/Palestine. Peter Manson reports

The October 11 London Communist Forum saw a well attended and useful debate, entitled ‘Single state for Palestine - principled demand or cul-de-sac?’

CPGB comrade Jack Conrad, the first speaker, was at pains to emphasise that he was not expressing the ‘CPGB line’, but his own view. There are various positions on Israel-Palestine within our organisation, but what they all have in common is that they are all firmly on the side of the oppressed.

The project to found Israel as a settler state was and still is “a crime”, said comrade Conrad. But that crime has resulted in the coming into being of an Israeli Jewish, or Hebrew, nation and a working class solution must recognise this reality. While comrade Conrad could envisage the necessity of expelling recent Israeli settlers from the West Bank as part of an agreed democratic settlement, it was out of the question to talk about uprooting the Israeli Jewish people as a whole. The Israeli Jewish nation, like any other, has the right to self-determination, so long as it is not exercised at the expense of the oppression of other peoples.

The founding of the state of Israel resulted not only in the creation of an Israeli nation, but a Palestinian nation too. So now there are two mutually hostile nations contesting the same territory. Of course, if the two nations were prepared to join together in a democratic, secular state, that would be an excellent thing, but such a merger could only be achieved on a voluntary basis and the overwhelming majority of Israeli Jews reject it out of hand. What is more, the Israeli state is “armed to the teeth and allied to the US”, the most powerful imperialist country on earth. So how would it be possible to attain a single state in current circumstances?

Comrade Conrad concluded by saying that we need to approach the whole question from a different angle - taking the perspective of the Arab revolution as our starting point. The working class “must win leadership of the Arab nation” to achieve a democratic solution for the entire Middle East. A voluntary merger of the Arab peoples under working class hegemony, having defeated Zionism, would certainly grant the Israeli Jewish nation the right to self-determination, including the right to form their own state.

The next speaker was Tony Greenstein, long-time campaigner for Palestinian rights and a member of the Alliance for Green Socialism. A two-state solution, he said, has been (half-heartedly) backed by the imperialists, whereas the socialist solution is for a single, unitary state, as in Ireland and South Africa. To advocate two states was to “agree in practice, if not in tactics, with the imperialists”. The majority of Palestinians would prefer a single state.

While comrade Greenstein accepted that a solution could not be obtained within the confines of Palestine, he ruled out national rights for Israeli Jews even in the context of such a wider solution. The right of self-determination “belongs to the oppressed”, not oppressor peoples, he said, and national self-determination for Israeli Jews is “irrelevant”. Instead we should focus on the oppressed group.

For comrade Greenstein the Israeli Jews are not a nation, because their Zionist ideology is still expansionist. The United States only became a nation when it had completed its colonialist expansion - something that Israel cannot do “despite its exterminatory mindset”.

Comrade Greenstein warned the CPGB that if we persist with our advocacy of Israeli national rights we could end up in like the social-imperialists of the Alliance for Workers’ Liberty. While, of course, he did not accuse the CPGB of AWL-type pro-imperialism, he reminded us of “certain historical processes” that saw the AWL switch camps.

Israeli communist Moshé Machover was the final platform speaker. He started by stating his view that both the previous speeches had concentrated too much on the question of self-determination. The discrete territory of ‘Palestine’ or ‘Israel’ is a given by both peoples, but that ought not to be the case for socialists, he said. Palestine, as an imperialist creation, is “a joke”. The explicit reason contained in the League of Nations mandate to create ‘Palestine’ was in order to accommodate a Zionist state - there was at the time neither a Palestinian people nor a recognisable Palestinian territory.

Comrade Machover also stressed that the problem could not be resolved within the confines of Israel/Palestine (on the face of it a consensus among all three speakers) - “the forces to create it do not exist”. But neither could there be ‘decolonisation’. That was because, in the view of Matzpen - the Israeli socialist party of which comrade Machover was a founder-member - Israel was created on the basis of “exclusion colonisation”, relying mainly on Jewish labour, as opposed to the more normal “exploitation colonisation”, where a minority of settlers live off colonised labour.

Comrade Machover said that the “Israeli exception” lies not in the fact that settlers have formed themselves into a nation - that was a relatively common phenomenon (and he hotly disputed comrade Greenstein’s claim that the USA only became a nation after the complete suppression of native Americans: it was clearly already a nation by 1820, he said). The Israeli exception lies in the formation of an indigenous nation - the Palestinians.

For comrade Machover, this particular national question cannot be solved - we need to fight instead for socialism. That needs forces that are “enormous”: ie, the “unification of the Arab east under the leadership of the working class”. Seen from this angle, the dispute over one state or two was to “project the current absurdity into the socialist future”.

He ended by emphasising his view that the question of self-determination is one for the future. Then it would be ridiculous to say to the Hebrews, as comrade Greenstein does, “You are an oppressor nation even after the overthrow of Zionism”. A nation that is denied self-determination is ipso facto oppressed: “You have to make them want to join - I’m not for a separate Israel.”

Speaking from the floor, Gerry Downing said that the Arab revolution could only be a bourgeois revolution. It was a “fudged position”. There was no prospect of bringing on board Jewish workers “without a socialist revolution”. But there would have to be a single state, since “self-determination would mean separation”. He was backed up in this by Paul Flewers, who said that a two-state solution would “cement anti-Arab sentiment” and “reinforce exclusivism”.

In my intervention I wondered why comrade Downing assumed that an Arab revolution had to be a “bourgeois revolution”, even when its two platform advocates described it as being under working class hegemony. On the question of self-determination, I pointed to France 1940 to demonstrate how an oppressor nation could be rapidly transformed by changed circumstances into an oppressed nation. That is why, although we stress that it is only when a nation is oppressed that it has any problem in relation to self-determination, the demand aims for the equality of nations - those that do not have it must be granted it, while those that do must be able to retain it.

Stan Keable of the CPGB took issue with comrade Greenstein over the question of Ireland: just as in Israel/Palestine, a democratic solution can only be achieved through an agreement between the Catholic-Irish and British-Irish. Another CPGB comrade, James Turley, agreed with comrade Machover that Israel/Palestine would not see a solution before “decisive steps to a socialist revolution”. However, the proposals we put forward now must act as an “advertisement for the future we’re offering”.

Replying to the debate, comrade Machover called for a “moratorium” on self-determination: “I will stop defending it if you stop opposing it.” He ended by reiterating his view that the “problem can’t be solved short of a socialist revolution”. But that does not mean we should “sit with folded arms”. Rather than “bicker about one or two states”, there is “plenty we can do” - not least mobilising the workers’ movement against current Israeli barbarity and to prevent even worse atrocities.

Comrade Greenstein said it was a “cop-out” to say we will solve the national question after we have won socialism: “What about now?” But his solution for now most definitely excluded Israeli Jewish self-determination. While he could envisage the “free association of Jews” in theory, in practice an Israeli state “had to be Zionist”. To argue for two states was to argue for the “historically oppressive Jewish state”, the “solution of imperialism”.
For comrade Greenstein, a single secular, democratic state is “the starting point” - although “how to achieve it none of us know”. He dismissed the notion of voluntary unity: “Coercion is the name of the game” - those with privileges would not give them up willingly. He estimated that between two-fifths and a half of all Israeli Jews would “without a doubt” leave Palestine if a single, democratic secular state was established.

In my view comrade Greenstein’s final comments definitively exposed the bankruptcy of one-state advocates. Not only can they not envisage any realistic means of attaining the solution they profess to believe in: they do believe it would be so unattractive, it would involve a mass exodus of millions of Jews (at least comrade Greenstein is more honest than other single-staters on this).

But think what that would mean not just for those who left, but for those who stayed behind. The economy would be paralysed virtually overnight and the whole infrastructure would be left in tatters. Surely it would be in the interests of the Palestinian people to persuade the overwhelming majority of Israeli Jews to remain.

In his concluding remarks Jack Conrad pointed out that comrade Greenstein was in reality advocating a utopia - in other words, an impossibility. If coercion is “the name of the game”, how can we get over the small problem that Israeli Jews, instead of heading for the ports and airports, might employ their “superior means of coercion” to resist what was to be imposed on them?

Responding to comrade Machover, Downing et al, comrade Conrad accepted that it was very positive that we were “all united over Gaza” in opposing the Israeli onslaught. But surely, as well as coming together over immediate practical questions, it is the job of Marxists to formulate a viable long-term strategy that fully takes into account national, global and class realties and maps a way forward: “Just saying ‘socialism’ is as good as useless.”

Comrade Conrad ended by referring to the need to overcome the “specific national and class problems” posed by Israel - including the fact that it does not have a normal working class. It is futile simply to keep repeating the same tired old slogans: “If you’re in a hole, start thinking!”

Q
16th October 2009, 16:51
I think that this debate (I've only read the written report thus far, only partly listened to the audio recordings) has made me convince that Tony Greenstein is on shakier grounds than I first thought. I mean, if he is willing to admit that a united Palestine would mean as mass exodus of Jews - with their own dramatic consequences and ruining the country - then that poses no real solution either.

Yehuda Stern
16th October 2009, 22:37
How is that "no solution"? Many Jews will leave because they refuse to live in a state in which they are not the oppressor nation. Why should this stop the Palestinians from acting on their rights to their land?

Die Rote Fahne
16th October 2009, 23:51
I would love to see a unified bi-national secualr state. The "United Israeli-Palestine".

However, that is not possible. We must strive for a two state solution based on 1967 borders and the right of return for Palestine's refugees.

BobKKKindle$
17th October 2009, 00:21
and the right of return for Palestine's refugees. Except, this is pretty much incompatible with the two-state solution and hence one of the many reasons that solution should be oppossed. Israel is not like other states in that it is a state whose identity and activities are geared towards the interests of a specific ethnic group, namely the Jewish people, even if fulfilling this role means carrying out oppression against other ethnic groups such as Arabs and the Berber people, which is of course exactly what Israel does and has been doing ever since it came into existence, both in relation to Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank, and its internal Palestinian population, who are still denied access to occupations in the public sector on the grounds that they constitute a security risk, are subject to intrusive zoning laws that prevent the horizontal expansion of their communities and enable the government to seize any part of their land it wants to, and, as a result of Israel placing spies in their schools and requiring that all teachers be supervised by the Shin Bet, are not allowed to learn about their history, amongst other forms of oppression. If it were the case that Israel permitted all of the Palestinian refugees who were forced to flee during the Nakba and subsequent conflicts to return then not only would that pose an immediate problem in that Israelis would probably be made to return property that used to be owned by these refugees (keeping in mind that many refugees still have the ownership documents for their land and homes, some of these documents dating back to the British mandate period, some even to the Ottoman Empire) it would also change the demographic balance within Israel to the extent that the Arab population would posses sufficient electoral weight to overturn their discrimination, and hence abolish Israel's status as a Jewish state. This is already becoming a worry for Israel due to Arab families having higher birth rates and large-scale Jewish emigration and so it is unthinkable that Israel, in its current form, would ever be willing to grant the right of return - or if they did so they would have to deny the whole of the Arab population all political rights, hence introducing an overt system of apartheid in place of the current system, which is, at least for some, hidden. If Israel did cease to be a Jewish state, giving equal rights to all, then the entire point of a two-state solution would become redundant, and you might as well fight for a unitary state.

This is only one of the reasons revolutionaries should ruthlessly oppose a two-state solution, others being the fact that a Palestinian state alongside an Israeli state would not be territorially continuous and hence would suffer from problems of political and economic coordination, as well as the basic fact that Israel's current role is to function as a watchdog for imperialism in the Middle East, and so allowing Israel to continue to exist means giving imperialism a vital weapon.


If Weyman Bennett of the Socialist Workers Party’s central committee’s slogan was ‘Jews out of Israel’

The CPGB sticking to its usual standards of journalistic integrity, I see. Incidentally, everyone, I can now proudly say I have been on the receiving end of their inane sectarianism, both in real life, and in the WW.

Yehuda Stern
17th October 2009, 01:36
The CPGB sticking to its usual standards of journalistic integrity, I see.

But he did say that Jews should go back to New York, a clearly anti-Semitic thing to say, did he not?

BobKKKindle$
17th October 2009, 01:42
But he did say that Jews should go back to New York, a clearly anti-Semitic thing to say, did he not?

There were, if I remember, rumours, mostly posed on far-right websites, that he muttered that during a demonstration, or something like it. When it came up here I think SWP members were asked to provide proof that he didn't say that, which says a lot about some members' grasp of logic. Based on the lack of evidence to show that he did, I don't believe it myself. Of course, saying that is horrifically anti-semitic, and I would be very disappointed, if, having said that, Bennet didn't get disciplined. But, once again, the only evidence we have that he did is the word of the CPGB as it seems that most of the right-wing blogs and sites that refer to the rumour, like the Stormfront link you get near the top of the age of you google "Weyman" and the quote, link back to the original WW article in which the rumour was first announced.

Led Zeppelin
17th October 2009, 01:45
Incidentally, everyone, I can now proudly say I have been on the receiving end of their inane sectarianism, both in real life, and in the WW.

Details are desired. :)

Yehuda Stern
17th October 2009, 01:54
I see. Well, I second LZ's inquiry.

BobKKKindle$
17th October 2009, 01:55
Details are desired. :)

Haha, well their WW item doesn't refer to me as an individual but it does refer to me and my comrades collectively. It's in this week's issue and concerns students so I don't think you'll have trouble finding it - it says something really weird about us (and I mean my local student branch of the SWP here - not even the SWP as an organization) not being friendly on the grounds that we apparently went out of our way not to make eye contact with them when we were having a stall recently, whereas some SP member who apparently turned up was happy to engage in polite conversation...I really find it hard to understand what their rationale is! They also say something about how they managed to distribute loads of material and get people signed up, in apparent ignorance of the fact that at freshers fairs (which are the fairs at the beginning of the university term for new students to sign up to clubs and societies) students generally sign up for just about everything, even things that don't remotely interest them - I personally signed up to the salsa-dancing club at my first fair despite not knowing anything about salsa and having no intention to learn. They also have the audacity to say that it would have been better if there had been a single organization there, as if groups like the SWP and the SP were doing something wrong by making an appearence! In terms of personal contact our student branch had a meeting the other night with Alex Callinicos and a large audience, and one of their members was there, the audience and some of our members there had got a good discussion going at the end of Callinicos' talk about the Marxist definition of class and whether we should support a no-platform stance, and I as the chair had a feeling that this one guy might be dodgy because he had been writing frantically since the beginning of this meeting, but felt it would be unfair not to let him speak - so as you might expect his sole intention was to make a number of points about the strange things that the CPGB concerns itself with, like having a programme that includes the demand for the creation of workers militias under capitalism, and he also seemed to imply that the persecution of communists in Iran was somehow the fault of the SWP, because he doesn't agree with our analysis of imperialism....then at the end of the meeting when we were all having drinks and informal discussion he just went around giving people copies of their material and talking with me and the other comrades about why he dislikes the SWP.

It was just weird and kind of depressing because it soured what up to that point had been a really good mood, people seemed interested in what was being said, and enthusiastic about getting involved. We had a great collection for the upcoming postal strike there though, so I was still happy at the end of the evening.

Led Zeppelin
17th October 2009, 02:02
Haha, well their WW item doesn't refer to me as an individual but it does refer to me and my comrades collectively. It's in this week's issue and concerns students so I don't think you'll have trouble finding it - it says something really weird about us (and I mean my local student branch of the SWP here - not even the SWP as an organization) not being friendly on the grounds that we apparently went out of our way not to make eye contact with them when we were having a stall recently, whereas some SP member who apparently turned up was happy to engage in polite conversation...I really find it hard to understand what their rationale is! They also say something about how they managed to distribute loads of material and get people signed up, in apparent ignorance of the fact that at freshers fairs (which are the fairs at the beginning of the university term for new students to sign up to clubs and societies) students generally sign up for just about everything, even things that don't remotely interest them - I personally signed up to the salsa-dancing club at my first fair despite not knowing anything about salsa and having no intention to learn. In terms of personal contact our student branch had a meeting the other night with Alex Callinicos and a large audience, and one of their members was there, the audience and some of our members there had got a good discussion going at the end of Callinicos' talk about the Marxist definition of class and whether we should support a no-platform stance, and I as the chair had a feeling that this one guy might be dodgy because he had been writing frantically since the beginning of this meeting, but felt it would be unfair not to let him speak - so as you might expect his sole intention was to make a number of points about the strange things that the CPGB concerns itself with, like having a programme that includes the demand for the creation of workers militias under capitalism, and he also seemed to imply that the persecution of communists in Iran was somehow the fault of the SWP, because he doesn't agree with our analysis of imperialism....

It was just weird and kind of depressing because it soured what up to that point had been a really good mood. We had a great collection for the upcoming postal strike here though, so I was still happy at the end of the evening.

So basically what you're saying is that the guy was sort of like a Buzz Killington (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CcyiskNIiBI)? (Leo will love this reference)

Thanks for the details. The behavior of such people interests me greatly, like a zoologist studying a foreign exotic animal.

blake 3:17
17th October 2009, 05:38
I too was supportive of the two-state solution. Greenstein's article makes some points that make me rethink that position. One of the most important points is that Israel is not a nationstate, i.e. not a state based on a nationality. It is a Zionist state based on being a Jew. If you're not a Jew, you're not given the Israeli nationality. So, the Israeli state is only a state for a part of its citizens. In this context Greenstein equals selfdetermination to Zionists to the selfdetermination to the whites in South-Africa, a complete absurdity.

I'd be pretty happy with one bourgeois state. I don't think socialist revolution is on the cards here and we are witnessing the physical and cultural destruction of a people. Israeli apartheid is premised on the complete elimination of the Palestinian working class. South African apartheid was based initially on Canada's treatment of its aboriginal peoples. Canada's first peoples used to play important economic roles -- they were forced out of these roles and the state has tried to undermine any real attempts at meaninful representation or self governance. There are very important pockets of resistance but it is awfully hard when you are wedged between massive bureaucracy and horrific poverty.

White South Africa was entirely dependent on a black working class. What the Zionists want to do, just like my ancestors did, is to steal land from a people through militarism and starvation and exclude them from the labour market.

Edited to add:
This is only one of the reasons revolutionaries should ruthlessly oppose a two-state solution, others being the fact that a Palestinian state alongside an Israeli state would not be territorially continuous and hence would suffer from problems of political and economic coordination, as well as the basic fact that Israel's current role is to function as a watchdog for imperialism in the Middle East, and so allowing Israel to continue to exist means giving imperialism a vital weapon.

Yes for two reasons. A nonfuctional divided land for the Palestinians is a disaster already and would continue to be so. The second being is what we're seeing now: The West Bank becoming a client state of Western imperialism and Gaza becoming more and more of a client state of a fundamentalist bloc. This is one possibility. The Zionist project is to completely eliminate the Palestinian people. Western imperial interests would be happier with the apartheid scenario.

Devrim
17th October 2009, 10:10
There were, if I remember, rumours, mostly posed on far-right websites, that he muttered that during a demonstration, or something like it. When it came up here I think SWP members were asked to provide proof that he didn't say that, which says a lot about some members' grasp of logic. Based on the lack of evidence to show that he did, I don't believe it myself. Of course, saying that is horrifically anti-semitic, and I would be very disappointed, if, having said that, Bennet didn't get disciplined. But, once again, the only evidence we have that he did is the word of the CPGB as it seems that most of the right-wing blogs and sites that refer to the rumour, like the Stormfront link you get near the top of the age of you google "Weyman" and the quote, link back to the original WW article in which the rumour was first announced.

It is mentioned on page four of this thread with a quote from the Weekly Worker and a link to the article. The thread (http://www.revleft.com/vb/jew-free-holocaust-t98069/index.html?highlight=holocaust) itself concerns a leaflet published by the SWP which stated:


They[The BNP] deny the holocaust where thousands of LGBT people, trade unionists and disabled people were slaughtered.

It sort of misses out some historical facts, doesn't it? It is like a Jew free holocaust.

On the thread SWP members denied that this leaflet had been produced by the SWP, even to the point of suggesting that the AWL had 'photoshoped' it to descredit them. This was disproved when it came out that the General Secretary of the SWP had actually apologised for the publication of the leaflet.

Bob seems to have some faults with his memory on the Bennett issue:


There were, if I remember, rumours, mostly posed on far-right websites,

No, the source was the Weekly Worker. The right wing websites picked it up from there.


that he muttered that during a demonstration,

Where does muttered come from? How on Earth does one 'mutter' through a megaphone?


When it came up here I think SWP members were asked to provide proof that he didn't say that, which says a lot about some members' grasp of logic.

The 'proof' that was asked for was a denial from Bennett, himself. Of course nobody asked anybody to prove that somebody didn't do something. One would think that if he hadn't said it the SWP may have issued a statement stating that the allegation was slandourous.


Of course, saying that is horrifically anti-semitic, and I would be very disappointed, if, having said that, Bennet didn't get disciplined.

Were the people behind the jew free holocaust disciplined? As I remember an SWP member who voted against a strike (and against party policy) on the PCS national committee was 'disciplined'. He had to apologise.

Devrim

Yehuda Stern
19th October 2009, 22:33
Were the people behind the jew free holocaust disciplined?

What does this refer to?

Anyway, I too am waiting for an answer. To be honest, I find it quite suspicion that there has been no denial yet. Hysterical mud slinging is common SWP behavior when they can't deny something that they find embarrassing, like one of their members becoming a government adviser (this was discussed a while back).

Devrim
19th October 2009, 23:01
It refers to the link in the post above: http://www.revleft.com/vb/jew-free-holocaust-t98069/index.html?highlight=holocaust
Devrim

RED ARMY FACTION
19th October 2009, 23:04
isreal is not a state, zionism must be wiped off the face of the earth(not jews or judaism, but zionism)

Yehuda Stern
19th October 2009, 23:47
Well, reading that, I still don't think the SWP is anti-Semitic as an organization. But, as I have said before, its open door policy and eclecticism and opportunism mean that there are bound to be reactionary elements in it who exert some pressure on the leadership to the point of causing it to make anti-Semitic remarks (and German's remarks, and Bennett which I include in this since no one seems to be interested in denying them). That's what happens when one sacrifices ideas and political clarity to become bigger.

Unless, of course, there are SWPers interested in explaining all this.