Official G20 Coverage Thread

[Ele'ill]

This will be the official G20 summit thread mainly because I said so.

News updates can be posted here. Pictures and videos may also be posted if the mods approve of it.

This thread is so the restricted members can give their input.

[Ele'ill]

The twist being someone else is going to have to keep it updated because I cannot.

(for obvious reasons)


Let's go left :thumbup:

[Havet]

I haven't really keeping up with it, but a quick look at youtube makes me think it's more of the same:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GpdUdAnhlM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlVFmxx92O0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bywLW4ixYg

[Ele'ill]

I have a feeling the events in Pittsburgh will be a little different.

Twelve police cars were disabled :rolleyes: at the police HQ and the summit had not even started.

There will be so many police officers and other security personnel and road blocks both by demonstrators and the police that the city will shut down without much of anyone's control.

As usual- I hope nobody gets seriously hurt and I hope everyone that gets arrested has thought it all through before hand and is willing to be in that position.

[Ele'ill]

8ahXzEevlkI

[danyboy27]

i always wondered what kind of messages protester try to transmit to the working class by attacking the police and breaking up stuff at protest.

i am a leftist, i am a worker and still dont get it at all.

[#FF0000]

They are more often than not acting in self-defense, danyboy.

[danyboy27]

They are more often than not acting in self-defense, danyboy.

dosnt change the fact that i still dont get the message they are trying to send me.

[#FF0000]

dosnt change the fact that i still dont get the message they are trying to send me.

They aren't trying to send a message. It's self-defense. :confused:

[bcbm]

i always wondered what kind of messages protester try to transmit to the working class by attacking the police and breaking up stuff at protest.

i am a leftist, i am a worker and still dont get it at all.


We contend that property destruction is not a violent activity unless it destroys lives or causes pain in the process. By this definition, private property--especially corporate private property--is itself infinitely more violent than any action taken against it.

Private property should be distinguished from personal property. The latter is based upon use while the former is based upon trade. The premise of personal property is that each of us has what s/he needs. The premise of private property is that each of us has something that someone else needs or wants. In a society based on private property rights, those who are able to accrue more of what others need or want have greater power. By extension, they wield greater control over what others perceive as needs and desires, usually in the interest of increasing profit to themselves.

Advocates of "free trade" would like to see this process to its logical conclusion: a network of a few industry monopolists with ultimate control over the lives of the everyone else. Advocates of "fair trade" would like to see this process mitigated by government regulations meant to superficially impose basic humanitarian standards. As anarchists, we despise both positions.

Private property--and capitalism, by extension--is intrinsically violent and repressive and cannot be reformed or mitigated. Whether the power of everyone is concentrated into the hands of a few corporate heads or diverted into a regulatory apparatus charged with mitigating the disasters of the latter, no one can be as free or as powerful as they could be in a non-hierarchical society.

When we smash a window, we aim to destroy the thin veneer of legitimacy that surrounds private property rights. At the same time, we exorcise that set of violent and destructive social relationships which has been imbued in almost everything around us. By "destroying" private property, we convert its limited exchange value into an expanded use value. A storefront window becomes a vent to let some fresh air into the oppressive atmosphere of a retail outlet (at least until the police decide to tear-gas a nearby road blockade). A newspaper box becomes a tool for creating such vents or a small blockade for the reclamation of public space or an object to improve one's vantage point by standing on it. A dumpster becomes an obstruction to a phalanx of rioting cops and a source of heat and light. A building facade becomes a message board to record brainstorm ideas for a better world.

After N30, many people will never see a shop window or a hammer the same way again. The potential uses of an entire cityscape have increased a thousand-fold. The number of broken windows pales in comparison to the number broken spells--spells cast by a corporate hegemony to lull us into forgetfulness of all the violence committed in the name of private property rights and of all the potential of a society without them. Broken windows can be boarded up (with yet more waste of our forests) and eventually replaced, but the shattering of assumptions will hopefully persist for some time to come.

also, cuz fuck cops.


They are more often than not acting in self-defense, danyboy.


Conversely: "They acted in response to the police repression." While this might be a more positive representation of the black bloc, it is nevertheless false. We refuse to be misconstrued as a purely reactionary force. While the logic of the black bloc may not make sense to some, it is in any case a pro-active logic.

http://www.geocities.com/kk_abacus/ACME.html

[danyboy27]

tanks both of you to make this clear for me.

maybe i am a sociopath or i suffer from apathy but i dont actually feel personally touched by that message, and i am an exploited worker.

[bcbm]

Ever wanted to punch your boss?

[danyboy27]

Ever wanted to punch your boss?

not really. i doubt about its abilities to make the buisness work but i never felt the urge or need to punch him.

[bcbm]

But you can probably understand why somebody would want to punch their boss?

[danyboy27]

But you can probably understand why somebody would want to punch their boss?

yes, why?

[bcbm]

That's why some people break windows at demonstrations. You can't punch the G20, but you can still get the sentiment across.

[danyboy27]

That's why some people break windows at demonstrations. You can't punch the G20, but you can still get the sentiment across.

if its make them feel better then good for them.

i guess g20 demostration are more like a personnal thing rather than a political statement.

like when people break stuff at sport event. people feel the need to express their emotion.

just dont express your emotion in my appartement windows and all will be fine.

[bcbm]

i guess g20 demostration are more like a personnal thing rather than a political statement.

Our enemies are holding a large meeting to decide how to further their war against us. Obviously any conflict over this is a political conflict.


just dont express your emotion in my appartement windows and all will be fine.

The targets of violence at protest events are almost always large corporate stores, government offices or exceptionally bad local businesses, not people's homes.

[Rusty Shackleford]

The protesters in should know not to attack homes. also like bcbm said, banks, corporations, and large scale or bad businesses are the targets of their fury.

Also, in the early 20th century, many rural americans were anti-bank because they saw it as a threat. rightfully so because the bank would evict farmers who couldnt produce a successful crop. even if it was due to a bad season. Now the bank can still evict you for not affording rent, and can make more money off you if you are in debt to them. A bank is not good for the people if it manipulates and steals from them.


Also what ever people lose from a bank due to damages is federally insured. and a bank can more than afford to repair a branch. and a window at mcdonalds or starbucks(i do like their coffee though, but i couldnt care less if they went under) being broken is a way to attack a company. if you imagine a company as a person, breaking a window is like stubbing its toe. instead of blood, it has money. the more money a business is forced to use to repair itself the weaker it gets.

how does this effect the working class? it doesnt really. it is more of a means for anti-capitalists to fight back against the enemy. this is the time for action for them. not for propagandizing. after the protest their energies may be put elsewhere.

I just hope no one dies or gets seriously hurt at the events.

[danyboy27]

you know what would be popular when there is a g20? distribute anti-g20 pins and small flyers people could put in their windows to express their discontent worldwide.

that something that might interest the working class. The working class will always be alright to express their discontent, they just dont have much time to do it, with the kids, the house etc etc

[Comrade B]

Part of the reason for the damaging is a leftist anti-violent form of terrorism, people don't want the G20 coming to town if they know that globalization causes this anger. Also, yeah, we try to keep people smashing big businesses, rather than cars and stuff, but every now and then some people get a little out of hand.

[Havet]

not really. i doubt about its abilities to make the buisness work but i never felt the urge or need to punch him.

If you think he doesn't have any abilities to make the business work, then why not consider joining up with a couple of co-workers and starting a competitor business to drive that lazy SoaB out of that parasitical position?

[danyboy27]

If you think he doesn't have any abilities to make the business work, then why not consider joining up with a couple of co-workers and starting a competitor business to drive that lazy SoaB out of that parasitical position?

well, he does make the buisness work, it just that he suck at managing people. many worker got an interresting insight and idea but those are just plain ignored, hell he can barely make the chain of command system work.

i tried in the past to help him understand people like us, but its seem his understanding in that field is rather limited.

what will happen in the future is pretty obvious, after racking a good amount of skill and experience me and other will just leave to work for a competitor or just work in another domain.

[bcbm]

G-20 march turns chaotic on streets of Pittsburgh


By DANIEL LOVERING and MICHAEL RUBINKAM (AP) – 1 hour ago


PITTSBURGH — Protesters and police are clashing on the streets of Pittsburgh after police tried to break up a march oppposing the Group of 20 summit.


Protesters rolled trash bins toward police and a man in a black hooded sweat shirt threw rocks at a police car, breaking the front windshield. Some protesters also are using pallets and corrugated steel to block a road.


Officers fired gas at the protesters. Some of those exposed to the gas were coughing, complaining of eyes watering and stinging.


The march began with several hundred protesters. It did not have a city permit and police declared it an unlawful assembly. The group broke into smaller groups after being confronted by police.

[Rusty Shackleford]

from http://socialistwebzine.blogspot.com/


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ia0wVU3RHkI&feature=player_embedded

[Bud Struggle]

Nobody there.

There are more delegates from Outthereistan than protesters.

[which doctor]

Judging by the pictures http://www.jonpratt.net/gallery/9745518_Yn645 here and some other videos I've seen, I must admit, it all looks really weak to me. The most impressive thing I've seen so far are the outfits of the riot police. Is this the detritus left over from the anti-war and anti-globalization movements? Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I have to wonder if anyone actually participates in the blac bloc besides the regular thrill jockies who wanna get their riotttt on.

Ever since Seattle, the State has gotten more oppressive and more effective in controlling street protests. Maybe I'm being overly cynical, but the sad reality is, they're winning this game. Tactics need a changin'.

[bcbm]

Judging by the pictures http://www.jonpratt.net/gallery/9745518_Yn645 (http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.jonpratt.net/gallery/9745518_Yn645) here and some other videos I've seen, I must admit, it all looks really weak to me. The most impressive thing I've seen so far are the outfits of the riot police. Is this the detritus left over from the anti-war and anti-globalization movements? Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I have to wonder if anyone actually participates in the blac bloc besides the regular thrill jockies who wanna get their riotttt on.

I think 2000 people on an unpermitted march through a heavily militarized zone is nothing to be ashamed of. Certainly we should hope and work for more, but I think this is still good given how little time there was to organize everything.


Ever since Seattle, the State has gotten more oppressive and more effective in controlling street protests. Maybe I'm being overly cynical, but the sad reality is, they're winning this game. Tactics need a changin'.

I also don't think anything like Seattle has been tried since, ie the mass coordinated shutdown of an area. But yes, different tactics would be useful. I've always found the decentralized mass attack used in some European circles to be pretty interesting. It bears a lot in common with the banlieue uprisings you're reading about actually.

[Ele'ill]

An update if I will.

If you are the type of person that was hoping some good riot porn would come from this demo than you can go away because this was definitely not the venue for it.

I have not seen militarization like this in the united states before. When the police arrived they arrived about six vans and a public transit bus worth of riot police. It seemed as though there were 30-40 riot police per street area. This doesn't include the unpermitted march where it would have been warranted.

I'm not sure what they were doing with the LRAD as it appeared useless.


The events-

-200-300 people do radical caroling throughout the city in the first 'unpermitted' sidewalk march after the concert.

-There were 1500-2000 people at the unpermitted march which broke up quickly because whoever planned the fucking thing should have realized that Arsenal park only has two roads leading from it to center city area. The police blocked both these roads off and tear gassed. For the next two hours or so people and police were running around this neighborhood (with the LRAD making noise) and gas wafting everywhere.

-Bash back supposedly lights dumpsters on fire and causes some havoc.


-I have not heard an estimate on size of the permitted march but Its the biggest the city has seen since the vietnam era demonstrations. It was big.



http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2582/3954469401_cc34edd38b.jpg



http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2546/3955247098_21a7f95305.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3519/3955224984_4477ae76e0.jpg


Most of those are obviously from the very front of the march and its difficult to tell how long that line went. I know the top of that street curved around quite a ways.

[Ele'ill]

The people that were smashing stuff got throttled. Too many police with new gear.

I agree that there needs to be new tactics. Tactics start with educated planning.

1. Planning to 'show up and do whatever and maybe look at a map when you get there because you're autonomous and totally untouchable' is fucking killing us and is useless to the movement.

2. If you feel that yourself or someone you know might not be smart enough to verbally handle an interview (i.e. you or your drunk crust punk friends) then you need to tell them not to accept the interview.

Organizers- you need to tell everyone in your group that being offered an interview on the spot can cause even the most experienced speakers to stutter and say stupid things and that it is totally okay for everyone to reject interview offers.

Interviews on what just happened type stuff are okay.
Interviews on opinions when planned a little in advance are okay.

3. Stop breaking stuff at demonstrations. Do it some other time when there aren't 4,000 police officers in the city and you might not get arrested.

[Comrade B]

People should be more aggressive, no one gives two fucks about protesters who don't get a damn thing done. Woopdeedoo, you got a few thousand people together. Wall Street does that every day.
The WTO protests in Seattle were a success. Violence get noticed, and gets the protest heard.

Enough of the hippie peace shit. The right wingers look at us and laugh, we look like a bunch of middle class kids with some spare time on the weekends, not people with strong political convictions.
Wear bandanas and ski masks, not silly character masks
Ditch the fucking American flag crap. This isn't about the US, it is about international politics.
Discard bubbles, flowers, crap like that. Hold something useful.
Don't show up fucked up.
Break shit in a logical manner. Don't bust cars, houses and shit like that, but feel do smash the windows in at a 7-11, McDonalds, or light up some dumpsters and roll them at the cops.

[Ele'ill]

People should be more aggressive, no one gives two fucks about protesters who don't get a damn thing done. Woopdeedoo, you got a few thousand people together. Wall Street does that every day.

Wall Street doesn't have to face down an empire. :rolleyes:



The WTO protests in Seattle were a success. Violence get noticed, and gets the protest heard.

The Seattle protests were largely non violent. They were successful because of the non violent direct action tactics that were used and because of the diversity of groups involved.





Enough of the hippie peace shit. The right wingers look at us and laugh, we look like a bunch of middle class kids with some spare time on the weekends, not people with strong political convictions.

The funny thing about this statement is that a lot of the people WERE middle class with spare time on the weekend AND had strong political convictions.





Wear bandanas and ski masks, not silly character masks

So its about image?



Ditch the fucking American flag crap. This isn't about the US, it is about international politics.

Actually a LOT- No wait- MOST- of the local organizing focused on fixing local issues before worrying about global issues. Hence the story of Pittsburgh.

Had you actually participated in anything eventful in the last eight years you would perhaps at a minimum acknowledge this direction of the movement.








Break shit in a logical manner. Don't bust cars, houses and shit like that,

I wasn't aware that anyone did this.



but feel do smash the windows in at a 7-11, McDonalds, or light up some dumpsters and roll them at the cops.

In what way does this send a global message?

In what way does this send a local message?

What is the message that's being sent?

[#FF0000]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJ8npzELNmQ

[danyboy27]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJ8npzELNmQ

it suck we dont have the integrality of the tape.

would be interresting to see what part have been cut from this video and why.

[#FF0000]

it suck we dont have the integrality of the tape.

would be interresting to see what part have been cut from this video and why.

Why? Do you think they'd show the cops in a better light or something?

[danyboy27]

Why? Do you think they'd show the cops in a better light or something?

no not at all, its just that since the video have been edited, i dont have a clues of other things that have happened and why they edited it.


personally, i think the whole operation was a waste of money. think about it, helicopter, riot police, planning of operation, if you consider that 2 cop car would have done the job to arrest the fews troublemaker.

plus this was a bad decision, you dont give to potential ennemies political ammunition they will use against you.

[#FF0000]

no not at all, its just that since the video have been edited, i dont have a clues of other things that have happened and why they edited it.

Oh that's what I figured.

My guess is that the video was recorded and edited by film students. v:mellow:v



personally, i think the whole operation was a waste of money. think about it, helicopter, riot police, planning of operation, if you consider that 2 cop car would have done the job to arrest the fews troublemaker.

Well if your department is given money (police or otherwise), you sort of have to find something to do with it.


plus this was a bad decision, you dont give to potential ennemies political ammunition they will use against you.

The cops and the army in the U.S. have been doing this sort of thing for 200 years now. No one's stopped them yet. Tons, in fact, defend it, for some reason.

[danyboy27]

Well if your department is given money (police or otherwise), you sort of have to find something to do with it.
.

or in those time of economic crisis you could just show to the governement that you found a way to save some money and make an exemple of yourself.



The cops and the army in the U.S. have been doing this sort of thing for 200 years now. No one's stopped them yet. Tons, in fact, defend it, for some reason.

and that precisely why they constantly need to upgrade their gear and other stuff. they make people pissed, who then become angry, and in future protest they will be there making shit, and by trying to repress them you will make other people angry who will show up in another protest etc etc etc.

IMO i think a lot of other methods would be more simplier to prevent civil disorder, for instance using riot police has a defensive tool around a determined objective rather than agressively send them toward protester and using water cannon instead of tear gas.

[Ele'ill]

There was about 11 million dollars spent on security and having been there I can say that a large portion of that went to defending transnational corporations (I heard that the police forced smaller businesses to shut down for the summit and allowed larger chains to stay open), paying for riot gear and vehicles, paying for the training the horses and transportation for everything, paying the 4,000 police their wages (and overtime), paying for wages of pilots that were flying helicopters all over the place, paying the pilots and fuel of the blackhawk helicopters that were flying around, setting up metal barricades in center city and elsewhere I'm not even sure anyone made it down to the center city area during the convention.

It is safe to say that the majority of the money went towards preventing dissent from being too noticeable rather than towards preventing a terrorist attack.

A day or so before the convention they were still allowing everyone to walk around and inside of the convention center.

They also had hired private contractors to act as riot control officers. These people were not national guard or police and didn't have a badge number or unit identification tag of any sort.

[Comrade B]

Wall Street doesn't have to face down an empire.

Assembling a large group of people isn't an accomplishment unless the large group is there for a visible reason. Cash draws massive numbers of mildly motivated people, we need to show that their greed draws large crowds of very angry highly motivated people with an interest in collective good, rather than individual profit.


The Seattle protests were largely non violent. They were successful because of the non violent direct action tactics that were used and because of the diversity of groups involved.
and that is when people talk about the protests of 1999 they always immediately think, "oh yeah, that was a huge group of people who just yelled at the WTO until they backed off."
When you talk about the 99 protest, they think of 'the battle of Seattle'.
What exactly were these oh so effective 'direct actions' by the protesters who didn't fight back.


The funny thing about this statement is that a lot of the people WERE middle class with spare time on the weekend AND had strong political convictions.
Then show that you have strong convictions. It is a protest, not a fair.


So its about image?
Don't expect to be taken seriously when you are wearing a 'V' mask. It is about letting people know you are serious.


Actually a LOT- No wait- MOST- of the local organizing focused on fixing local issues before worrying about global issues. Hence the story of Pittsburgh.

Had you actually participated in anything eventful in the last eight years you would perhaps at a minimum acknowledge this direction of the movement.
The major groups mentioned were a group of people for Tibetan independence, anarchists, and a student group for Palestinian independence.
They may not be the majority, but they were the largest groups from what I am reading.

The American flag has nothing to do with local issues. The only message I could see connecting the flag to local issues were if people didn't object to the actions of the WTO at all, but that we should think "America First".

I am sorry I haven't made it out to any anti-international organization rallies recently, however the last rally I attended, for immigrants rights, the issue was very much local, and the setting was very much appropriate for an American flag. At an anti-WTO protest, not as much.


I wasn't aware that anyone did this.
I am speaking of the general, not this specific protest.


In what way does this send a global message?

In what way does this send a local message?

What is the message that's being sent?
The message is that people do not want the WTO in their cities, and the cities should not want the WTO there either.
The talk early on was of how much cash was going to come in from the protesters and WTO attendees (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/24/us/24pittsburgh.html?fta=y). There should be a fear of the damage cost, not an anticipation of cash gained from the WTO.
http://www.revleft.com/vb/../revleft/smilies/001_rolleyes.gif

[Ele'ill]

Assembling a large group of people isn't an accomplishment unless the large group is there for a visible reason. Cash draws massive numbers of mildly motivated people, we need to show that their greed draws large crowds of very angry highly motivated people with an interest in collective good, rather than individual profit.

I don't understand. Thousands did meet with their drive being to march against capitalism and the g20.



and that is when people talk about the protests of 1999 they always immediately think, "oh yeah, that was a huge group of people who just yelled at the WTO until they backed off."
When you talk about the 99 protest, they think of 'the battle of Seattle'.
What exactly were these oh so effective 'direct actions' by the protesters who didn't fight back.

They think of the battle of Seattle which was people locking down intersections, holding on to each other on street corners all while being exposed to beatings and chemical weapons. THAT was the battle of Seattle.

It took immense sacrifice but in the end exposed the police tactics as violent, brutal and even better- Useless.



Then show that you have strong convictions. It is a protest, not a fair.

Just facing down 4,000 police officers in a city that was completely militarized shows convictions.

Where do you live?

Were you there?

There were a lot of local people but hearing that people and groups from England, Arizona and Colorado were present did not surprise me.



Don't expect to be taken seriously when you are wearing a 'V' mask. It is about letting people know you are serious.

That was one person.

Judging an entire event based upon the actions of one person or even a handful of people is something that the American media does.

Do you by any chance work for fox news?



The major groups mentioned were a group of people for Tibetan independence, anarchists, and a student group for Palestinian independence.
They may not be the majority, but they were the largest groups from what I am reading.

By anarchists they may be refering to everyone that was in the unpermitted march which was about 2,000 anti capitalists etc.. It was a mix of people.


The American flag has nothing to do with local issues. The only message I could see connecting the flag to local issues were if people didn't object to the actions of the WTO at all, but that we should think "America First".

I'm not sure what you're talking about in regards to the WTO.

There was a strong feeling of 'we have tons of problems at home why are we out and about the globe making new problems'






I am sorry I haven't made it out to any anti-international organization rallies recently, however the last rally I attended, for immigrants rights, the issue was very much local, and the setting was very much appropriate for an American flag. At an anti-WTO protest, not as much.

This wasn't specifically an anti WTO protest.






The message is that people do not want the WTO in their cities, and the cities should not want the WTO there either.
The talk early on was of how much cash was going to come in from the protesters and WTO attendees (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/24/us/24pittsburgh.html?fta=y). There should be a fear of the damage cost, not an anticipation of cash gained from the WTO.
http://www.revleft.com/vb/../revleft/smilies/001_rolleyes.gif

Insurance can cover a lot of the damage cost. It makes it look like child-like vandalism.

It further militarizes cities.

[Comrade B]

I don't understand. Thousands did meet with their drive being to march against capitalism and the g20.
But we gather only occasionally, and when we do, we should show our strong devotion to our anti-capitalist cause.


They think of the battle of Seattle which was people locking down intersections, holding on to each other on street corners all while being exposed to beatings and chemical weapons. THAT was the battle of Seattle.

It took immense sacrifice but in the end exposed the police tactics as violent, brutal and even better- Useless.
What proved that the police were useless was that no matter how much violence they used, they could not suppress the retaliation. I will not deny that the peaceful protesters that stood their ground through the tear gas were admirable, but when I read about Pittsburgh I hear too much about people just giving up and retreating back and back, further from where the G20 was meeting.


Just facing down 4,000 police officers in a city that was completely militarized shows convictions.

Where do you live?

Were you there?

There were a lot of local people but hearing that people and groups from England, Arizona and Colorado were present did not surprise me.
Don't ask for personal information.
I recently moved from a town in rural America to Tacoma. I have protested in Freiburg Germany, and local things. I have never been confronted by the police in large numbers, that is true, but the police were not going into the places where protests were already authorized, far far away from the actual events. I have respect for those that broke through to places they were not authorized to go and continued to speak their voices, but simply gathering in a place does not send a real message, and I can't really say much about the protesters who went to the designated areas and left after they were told that it was over.


That was one person.

Judging an entire event based upon the actions of one person or even a handful of people is something that the American media does.

Do you by any chance work for fox news?
It is not something uncommon for people to do. I followed the events reading the New York Times, the pictures they had had quite a few people doing silly things which make all those around them look silly as well. Though it is one person, those around them are associated with that person, and while they may be being serious, the people being foolish makes people see the group, and base it upon them. It is something people often do, basing people around the worst of the group. It is not a good thing, but it is done.


By anarchists they may be refering to everyone that was in the unpermitted march which was about 2,000 anti capitalists etc.. It was a mix of people.
I believe it was the large group of people dressed in all black gathered together


I'm not sure what you're talking about in regards to the WTO.
Organizations like the G20 and WTO are international, not US. It is a united front against them that we are fighting for, not for our national succession from the organization. The problem doesn't go away from just one country leaving the organization.


There was a strong feeling of 'we have tons of problems at home why are we out and about the globe making new problems'
and we should be ashamed that the problems being created around the world are beneath that flag.


This wasn't specifically an anti WTO protest.
So why are we rallying at the time of the G20 protests if it has nothing to do with the organization being protested? The other 19 countries don't need to be present to protest about local issues.


Insurance can cover a lot of the damage cost. It makes it look like child-like vandalism.
It is to show anger at the organizations, we don't really expect to be shutting them down by damaging them... It is about a message of dislike for the corporations



It further militarizes cities.
Resistance in general causes militarization. That the government does not want you doing something and will try to stop you from doing it does not mean that you should not do it. I am a commie, keep that in mind. Fuck the US government, if they want to fight, we will fight back.

[revolt4thewin]

Down with big brother! Down with the greedy corporations of military enterprise.

[Ele'ill]

But we gather only occasionally, and when we do, we should show our strong devotion to our anti-capitalist cause.

Part of the problem is that these organizations or meetings are located in different areas each time they occur. Often times there is short notice as to when and where. This greatly affects planning.

I do not think that violence at a demonstration shows devotion. In fact I think that violence is a cop out.



What proved that the police were useless was that no matter how much violence they used, they could not suppress the retaliation.

The retaliation was the demonstrators not reacting and continuing to hunker down together.


I will not deny that the peaceful protesters that stood their ground through the tear gas were admirable, but when I read about Pittsburgh I hear too much about people just giving up and retreating back and back, further from where the G20 was meeting.

This isn't accurate either. During the convention I do not think that ANYBODY made it down to the convention center. The brief battles took place in the neighborhoods and the other skirmishes were either at the university areas or in random areas of the city.

We were all staying in similar proximity to the convention center and we never retreated past that.



Don't ask for personal information.
I recently moved from a town in rural America to Tacoma.




I have protested in Freiburg Germany, and local things. I have never been confronted by the police in large numbers, that is true, but the police were not going into the places where protests were already authorized, far far away from the actual events.

Do you mean they were not going into authorized places of protest in your past experiences?

You are wrong if you are referring to Pittsburgh. The police in their budget and Ryder trucks were fucking EVERYWHERE. Their trucks and vans packed with them would arrive in groups of five or six- sometimes more- and always at 60mph. They arrived via bus as well. At times there were almost two hundred police in certain areas.



I have respect for those that broke through to places they were not authorized to go and continued to speak their voices, but simply gathering in a place does not send a real message, and I can't really say much about the protesters who went to the designated areas and left after they were told that it was over.

Maybe we can agree that the let downs were more from horrible planning than from the lack of violence.



I believe it was the large group of people dressed in all black gathered together

There wasn't a large group dressed in black. There were some. Again, I think they were referring to the unpermitted march.



and we should be ashamed that the problems being created around the world are beneath that flag.

Yes, but a different issue.



So why are we rallying at the time of the G20 protests if it has nothing to do with the organization being protested? The other 19 countries don't need to be present to protest about local issues.

I am not following what you're saying here.



It is to show anger at the organizations, we don't really expect to be shutting them down by damaging them... It is about a message of dislike for the corporations

Everyone already knows you dislike them. You're demonstrating against them. The violence has more of a negative impact on the movement. They have their Miami model and we have our Seattle.




Resistance in general causes militarization.

Peaceful resistance makes it much harder to justify tanks in the street.


Fuck the US government, if they want to fight, we will fight back.

Changing the world, one broken window at a time. :rolleyes:

[bcbm]

but when I read about Pittsburgh I hear too much about people just giving up and retreating back and back, further from where the G20 was meeting.ever been shot with a rubber bullet?


Changing the world, one broken window at a time.

if there hadn't been any street fights in pittsburgh (unlikely in any scenario), how much attention do you think the protests would've gotten?

[Ele'ill]

if there hadn't been any street fights in pittsburgh (unlikely in any scenario), how much attention do you think the protests would've gotten?

Lots.

I was there and most of the media covered the organizing surrounding the demonstrations. They covered the various tent cities their occupants and the speakers at them.


Besides- Why would we want negative attention? I would rather be paid no attention.

[bcbm]

Lots.

That would go against every protest experience I've had in the past decade, but sure.


I was there and most of the media covered the organizing surrounding the demonstrations. They covered the various tent cities their occupants and the speakers at them.

Locally or globally?


Besides- Why would we want negative attention? I would rather be paid no attention.

I don't think people being angry enough to kick off is necessarily negative attention.

[Ele'ill]

That would go against every protest experience I've had in the past decade, but sure.

Locally or globally?

Most of the media covered the organizing of the event. This took place before the unpermitted and permitted marches.

There were reporters from all over the world present.

The general feel was that networking and organizing was the main event and that the marches were going to be fun but we have more important things to do. (which I agree with)










I don't think people being angry enough to kick off is necessarily negative attention.

If people are angry enough they will avoid failure like the plague. They will find a way to succeed. Being militantly violent around 4,000 police officers is a fail tactic.

[bcbm]

Most of the media covered the organizing of the event. This took place before the unpermitted and permitted marches.

There were reporters from all over the world present.

The general feel was that networking and organizing was the main event and that the marches were going to be fun but we have more important things to do. (which I agree with)


i didn't see much on the organizing side from outside of local media. regardless, i don't think many people didn't know that shit was going to kick off in pittsburgh. the main anarchist logistics group was releasing posters with all sorts of burning shit and inflammatory slogans, to say nothing of the chatter coming from other sections of the country. i think the mass interest in the protests was because of the large potential for conflict given what happened at the DNC and especially RNC last year and the current economic crisis. i mean compare pittsburgh to miami, or savannah.


If people are angry enough they will avoid failure like the plague. They will find a way to succeed. Being militantly violent around 4,000 police officers is a fail tactic.

as far as street actions in the us go, this was wildly successful.

[Ele'ill]

i don't think many people didn't know that shit was going to kick off in pittsburgh.

What?



the main anarchist logistics group was releasing posters with all sorts of burning shit and inflammatory slogans, to say nothing of the chatter coming from other sections of the country.

I'm unsure what your point is.


i think the mass interest in the protests was because of the large potential for conflict given what happened at the DNC and especially RNC last year and the current economic crisis. i mean compare pittsburgh to miami, or savannah.

The majority of the people organizing, in the groups and in the marches were not planning conflict.




as far as street actions in the us go, this was wildly successful.

In what way do you think it was successful?

[bcbm]

What?

I'm unsure what your point is.

it was expected that shit would kick off, so there was a lot of attention paid to the protests.


The majority of the people organizing, in the groups and in the marches were not planning conflict.

i'll repeat again, the anarchist organizing group was pretty clear promoting it as an event where there would be conflict. most anarchist groups elsewhere in the country preparing for it seemed pretty okay with that idea.


In what way do you think it was successful?

comparatively few arrests for what went down, lots of corporate shit got wrecked, people actually tried to engage the police, effective comms and the police looked like jackasses. the protests largely overshadowed the g20. it also looks like the legal cases stemming from this will be a huge point to organize around in the next year because of their long-term ramifications.

[Ele'ill]

it was expected that shit would kick off, so there was a lot of attention paid to the protests.

Thanks.

The questions being asked by reporters and who the reporters were interviewing (especially by reporters from the international community) were not the type to engage in militant actions. At all.




i'll repeat again, the anarchist organizing group was pretty clear promoting it as an event where there would be conflict. most anarchist groups elsewhere in the country preparing for it seemed pretty okay with that idea.

I agree.

But the majority of the people at this event were not engaging in actions of conflict.




comparatively few arrests for what went down,

I believe there were about 200 arrests.

At the end of the unpermitted march I don't even think there were thirty people present for the horrendous smash shit session (that ended with about three hundred (not kidding) police in riot gear and more arrests of innocent bystanders about an hour later)



lots of corporate shit got wrecked,

Not really. There were broken windows, so what?


people actually tried to engage the police,

There were a few attempts made. They all failed because they didn't have a mission.



effective comms and the police looked like jackasses.

The police looked like jackasses because of how many there were and how many brand new 50,000 dollar vehicles they were using to transport themselves.

There were all kinds of problems with comms.





the protests largely overshadowed the g20. it also looks like the legal cases stemming from this will be a huge point to organize around in the next year because of their long-term ramifications.

If you mean because of how 'illegal' some of the police actions were then I agree.

[bcbm]

But the majority of the people at this event were not engaging in actions of conflict.

who said they were? i'm just suggesting that media interest was probably related to the possibility of conflict, as compared to previous protests.


I believe there were about 200 arrests.

yeah, i'm aware. hence my previous comment.


At the end of the unpermitted march I don't even think there were thirty people present for the horrendous smash shit session (that ended with about three hundred (not kidding) police in riot gear and more arrests of innocent bystanders about an hour later)

horrendous? and no need for the "not kidding" i've had riot police and worse in my face before, thanks.


Not really. There were broken windows, so what?

considerable for a us protest.


There were a few attempts made. They all failed because they didn't have a mission.

what? i was talking about the fact that people actually threw rocks at pigs for a change.


The police looked like jackasses because of how many there were and how many brand new 50,000 dollar vehicles they were using to transport themselves.

or also because they went all ape shit for no good reason.


There were all kinds of problems with comms.

as i was reading pgh imc they seemed to be functioning well.


If you mean because of how 'illegal' some of the police actions were then I agree.

no, i meant the charges against one or two people for all the property damage and the comms charges, actually.

[Ele'ill]

who said they were? i'm just suggesting that media interest was probably related to the possibility of conflict, as compared to previous protests.

What was on their minds and what they did are two different issues. I'm sure they're looking for action clips for the news agency they work for but there was more story coverage than anything else.




horrendous? and no need for the "not kidding" i've had riot police and worse in my face before, thanks.

Horrendous. It served no purpose.

It was the number of police in any given area that was a concern.










what? i was talking about the fact that people actually threw rocks at pigs for a change.


or also because they went all ape shit for no good reason.

What did throwing the rocks accomplish?









as i was reading pgh imc they seemed to be functioning well.

Everyone I was with and met had limited use of their cell phone.

Perhaps Pittsburgh is just a giant dead zone. :rolleyes:

[bcbm]

Horrendous. It served no purpose.

you may not agree with the purpose, but it certainly served one. see the first page of this thread.


It was the number of police in any given area that was a concern.

mass mobilizations always have tons of pigs. obviously this is a concern, but i don't think it should be unexpected at this point. they also sounded mostly ineffective.


What did throwing the rocks accomplish?

generally nobody in this country is willing to openly resist pigs like that, so its a step forward.


Everyone I was with and met had limited use of their cell phone.

i don't see how this possibly has anything to do with the comms team and their effectiveness. from the sounds of it some of the twitter messages saved people's asses.

[Ele'ill]

you may not agree with the purpose, but it certainly served one. see the first page of this thread.

Doesn't insurance cover the damage?

If not, several thousand dollars in damage once a year is a piss in the sea to these corporations. Using washable paint to vandalize the windows would have made more of an impact.






mass mobilizations always have tons of pigs. obviously this is a concern, but i don't think it should be unexpected at this point. they also sounded mostly ineffective.

They were very effective.




generally nobody in this country is willing to openly resist pigs like that, so its a step forward.

The fight isn't with the pigs.

Besides- they want the fight. When a lone squad car pulls up into a black bloc with its stupid sirens and lights going it isn't an easy target by accident.

Every person who threw a rock was baited into doing so by the police.




i don't see how this possibly has anything to do with the comms team and their effectiveness. from the sounds of it some of the twitter messages saved people's asses.

I think we're talking about about three different things. Originally I meant that the communication between organizers of groups and those planning marches and so on and so forth- was bad.

[bcbm]

Doesn't insurance cover the damage?

If not, several thousand dollars in damage once a year is a piss in the sea to these corporations. Using washable paint to vandalize the windows would have made more of an impact.nowhere in this thread did i ever suggest the reason was economic damage. i'll just repost what i was directing you to previously:


Private property--and capitalism, by extension--is intrinsically violent and repressive and cannot be reformed or mitigated. Whether the power of everyone is concentrated into the hands of a few corporate heads or diverted into a regulatory apparatus charged with mitigating the disasters of the latter, no one can be as free or as powerful as they could be in a non-hierarchical society.

When we smash a window, we aim to destroy the thin veneer of legitimacy that surrounds private property rights. At the same time, we exorcise that set of violent and destructive social relationships which has been imbued in almost everything around us. By "destroying" private property, we convert its limited exchange value into an expanded use value. A storefront window becomes a vent to let some fresh air into the oppressive atmosphere of a retail outlet (at least until the police decide to tear-gas a nearby road blockade). A newspaper box becomes a tool for creating such vents or a small blockade for the reclamation of public space or an object to improve one's vantage point by standing on it. A dumpster becomes an obstruction to a phalanx of rioting cops and a source of heat and light. A building facade becomes a message board to record brainstorm ideas for a better world.

After N30, many people will never see a shop window or a hammer the same way again. The potential uses of an entire cityscape have increased a thousand-fold. The number of broken windows pales in comparison to the number broken spells--spells cast by a corporate hegemony to lull us into forgetfulness of all the violence committed in the name of private property rights and of all the potential of a society without them. Broken windows can be boarded up (with yet more waste of our forests) and eventually replaced, but the shattering of assumptions will hopefully persist for some time to come.


They were very effective.some 30 businesses got fucked up, people got away with attacking the police, barricading roads, etc. the cops got a handful of mostly non-protesters arrested and i'll bet most will get their charges dropped in the coming months from lack of evidence. as far as policing actions in the us go, this was ineffective.


The fight isn't with the pigs. it is when they're in the way and/or represent all of the oppression and violence many people on the streets that day see in their daily lives.


Besides- they want the fight. When a lone squad car pulls up into a black bloc with its stupid sirens and lights going it isn't an easy target by accident.

Every person who threw a rock was baited into doing so by the police.this denies the agency of those who chose to attack the police. i can't speculate on what was going on in every person's head, but i doubt it was all just because they were baited. i can think of lots of good reasons people would want to take an opportunity to chuck a rock at a pig.


I think we're talking about about three different things. Originally I meant that the communication between organizers of groups and those planning marches and so on and so forth- was bad.i meant the twitter networking, etc.

[Ele'ill]

nowhere in this thread did i ever suggest the reason was economic damage. i'll just repost what i was directing you to previously:

Thank you.





Originally Posted by ACME Collective
Private property--and capitalism, by extension--is intrinsically violent and repressive and cannot be reformed or mitigated. Whether the power of everyone is concentrated into the hands of a few corporate heads or diverted into a regulatory apparatus charged with mitigating the disasters of the latter, no one can be as free or as powerful as they could be in a non-hierarchical society.

When we smash a window, we aim to destroy the thin veneer of legitimacy that surrounds private property rights. At the same time, we exorcise that set of violent and destructive social relationships which has been imbued in almost everything around us. By "destroying" private property, we convert its limited exchange value into an expanded use value. A storefront window becomes a vent to let some fresh air into the oppressive atmosphere of a retail outlet (at least until the police decide to tear-gas a nearby road blockade). A newspaper box becomes a tool for creating such vents or a small blockade for the reclamation of public space or an object to improve one's vantage point by standing on it. A dumpster becomes an obstruction to a phalanx of rioting cops and a source of heat and light. A building facade becomes a message board to record brainstorm ideas for a better world.

After N30, many people will never see a shop window or a hammer the same way again. The potential uses of an entire cityscape have increased a thousand-fold. The number of broken windows pales in comparison to the number broken spells--spells cast by a corporate hegemony to lull us into forgetfulness of all the violence committed in the name of private property rights and of all the potential of a society without them. Broken windows can be boarded up (with yet more waste of our forests) and eventually replaced, but the shattering of assumptions will hopefully persist for some time to come.

The only thing being destroyed is the thin 'veneer' of understanding a non politically oriented person had of your movement. The only sound made when a hammer hits a window is the shattering of the window. This monolith of ideological reasoning doesn't play over a loud speaker somewhere.

Most of the non-activists that I spoke with didn't have a fucking clue why stuff was being destroyed.

Understanding and outreach first - Action later. Not the other way around.




it is when they're in the way and/or represent all of the oppression and violence many people on the streets that day see in their daily lives.

Then they have been successfully baited into a fight that they will never win.

If they had injured half the police in the city in one day- So what?

Is that what this event was about? Injuring police?

No thank you.

[bcbm]

The only thing being destroyed is the thin 'veneer' of understanding a non politically oriented person had of your movement. The only sound made when a hammer hits a window is the shattering of the window. This monolith of ideological reasoning doesn't play over a loud speaker somewhere.

Most of the non-activists that I spoke with didn't have a fucking clue why stuff was being destroyed.

Understanding and outreach first - Action later. Not the other way around.

i don't think connecting the dots between a march against capitalism and attacks on corporate shit is too difficult. its unfortunate if people don't make that connection, but i really could care less about some windows being busted. if nothing else, it empowers the anarchist movement some more and will make more outreach possible.


Then they have been successfully baited into a fight that they will never win.

once again, this denies the agency of those who chose to attack the police. i can't speculate on what was going on in every person's head, but i doubt it was all just because they were baited. i can think of lots of good reasons people would want to take an opportunity to chuck a rock at a pig


If they had injured half the police in the city in one day- So what?

Is that what this event was about? Injuring police?

no, but putting a pig in the hospital never hurts.

[Ele'ill]

i don't think connecting the dots between a march against capitalism and attacks on corporate shit is too difficult.

There are so many less destructive methods that would get the same exact point across.



once again, this denies the agency of those who chose to attack the police. i can't speculate on what was going on in every person's head, but i doubt it was all just because they were baited. i can think of lots of good reasons people would want to take an opportunity to chuck a rock at a pig

It does nothing but waste time and further militarize the state.




no, but putting a pig in the hospital never hurts.

:rolleyes:

[bcbm]

There are so many less destructive methods that would get the same exact point across.


and i don't doubt the same people busting windows do those things too.


It does nothing but waste time and further militarize the state.

further? the state has operated at pretty much the same level of repression for at least the past decade. escalating state violence was rarely in response to any violence committed by protesters. if anything, the pigs usually start it. i don't see anything wrong with being militant against the police or defending ourselves.


:rolleyes:

if you ever have the misfortune of waking up to a team of men pointing machine guns in your face, handcuffing you while you're in nothing but underwear and making you sit like that for a couple of hours while they tear apart all of your possessions, maybe you'll feel the same.

[Ele'ill]

and i don't doubt the same people busting windows do those things too.

If they feel their destructive methods are so successful why would they change?




further? the state has operated at pretty much the same level of repression for at least the past decade. escalating state violence was rarely in response to any violence committed by protesters. if anything, the pigs usually start it.

There were hundreds of police present in Seattle. There were over five thousand police present in Pittsburgh.






if you ever have the misfortune of waking up to a team of men pointing machine guns in your face, handcuffing you while you're in nothing but underwear and making you sit like that for a couple of hours while they tear apart all of your possessions, maybe you'll feel the same.

Don't threaten me with a good time.

I'd rather fix the problem rather than give them a reason to attack me again in the future.

This isn't a turn based game. We can end this.

[Bud Struggle]

Originally Posted by bcbm
if you ever have the misfortune of waking up to a team of men pointing machine guns in your face, handcuffing you while you're in nothing but underwear and making you sit like that for a couple of hours while they tear apart all of your possessions, maybe you'll feel the same.



Don't threaten me with a good time.


:lol: :thumbup:

[bcbm]

If they feel their destructive methods are so successful why would they change?


maybe because struggle occurs on many fronts and you're drawing an absurd false dichotomy?


There were hundreds of police present in Seattle. There were over five thousand police present in Pittsburgh.

since miami, in 2003, police repression has been extremely heavy-handed. if anything, the g20 was less repressive than previous events have been in recent years.


Don't threaten me with a good time.

i wasn't threatening you, i'm speaking from personal experience. the police have pointed guns at me and my friends and done everything else i mentioned, among many other things. i'm sure other people have had even worse experience with the police. so i can understand completely why someone would want to brick a cop and i'm not going to shed a tear over it.


I'd rather fix the problem rather than give them a reason to attack me again in the future.

This isn't a turn based game. We can end this.

if your politics involve the complete dismantling of the current system and removal of its rulers, that is enough reason for them to attack you. the police don't attack us because we throw rocks at them, the police attack us because we exist.

[Ele'ill]

maybe because struggle occurs on many fronts and you're drawing an absurd false dichotomy?

Don't tell me what you think I'm doing. Prove it. Use your words... ;)




since miami, in 2003, police repression has been extremely heavy-handed. if anything, the g20 was less repressive than previous events have been in recent years.

I guess the moral of the story is that even in a city with less than the usual amount of police present- don't take on the empire head first.




i wasn't threatening you, i'm speaking from personal experience.

Oh yeah? How was it? :lol::thumbup1:


the police have pointed guns at me and my friends and done everything else i mentioned, among many other things. i'm sure other people have had even worse experience with the police. so i can understand completely why someone would want to brick a cop and i'm not going to shed a tear over it.

I totally understand the emotion involved. The problem isn't the police its the fact that police are allowed to do what they do. An injured cop will be replaced with another healthy cop that can do the same exact things as the previous.

Pull the fucking weeds. Leave the leaves alone. (I reworked this sentence about ten times and it still fucking rhymes)




if your politics involve the complete dismantling of the current system and removal of its rulers, that is enough reason for them to attack you. the police don't attack us because we throw rocks at them, the police attack us because we exist.

Throwing rocks usually narrows the time frame of impending attack down to a couple of seconds.

If you were a threat you wouldn't know they were coming for you.

[bcbm]

Don't tell me what you think I'm doing. Prove it. Use your words... ;)

you're suggesting one cannot break windows and be involved in other forms of struggle. this is an absurd false dichotomy. i didn't think i was being particularly obtuse.


I guess the moral of the story is that even in a city with less than the usual amount of police present- don't take on the empire head first.

which is why the police were rarely taken on directly. again, i think the anti-g20 protests were successful and the police ineffective.


Oh yeah? How was it? :lol::thumbup1:

get fucked.


I totally understand the emotion involved.

which is why you make jokes about it, obviously.


The problem isn't the police its the fact that police are allowed to do what they do. An injured cop will be replaced with another healthy cop that can do the same exact things as the previous.

as long as the police fulfill their institutional role, they're on the wrong side and i couldn't care less what happens to them.


Throwing rocks usually narrows the time frame of impending attack down to a couple of seconds.

from what i've seen/heard went down at the g20, rocks were thrown after the police attacked. once again, it is typically the police, not protesters, who initiate violence.

[Ele'ill]

you're suggesting one cannot break windows and be involved in other forms of struggle. this is an absurd false dichotomy. i didn't think i was being particularly obtuse.

I don't think someone can believe in peaceful, non confrontational, struggle and partake in breaking windows.

My original point was - What is the most successful action these people have been involved in? Why would they invest effort into peaceful actions if they think their super awesome violence is a winning tactic?

How was it successful and how has it changed things?






which is why the police were rarely taken on directly. again, i think the anti-g20 protests were successful and the police ineffective.

The police felt they were successful and if the corporations didn't terribly mind the amount of damage done to them (which I've heard is true) then what is the message being sent and who is it being sent to? Who gives a flying fuck except for other militant individuals who maybe couldn't make the demonstrations?

The state put out a honey pot and the violent direct action'ers took the bait.




get fucked.

Is this what happened?






which is why you make jokes about it, obviously.

It was pretty funny to me because I have been there myself.






as long as the police fulfill their institutional role, they're on the wrong side and i couldn't care less what happens to them.

Not caring about what happens to them and actively trying to make something happen to them are two different things.

You guys are fucking around with the leaves while this horrible monstrosity of a tree grows out of control.




from what i've seen/heard went down at the g20, rocks were thrown after the police attacked. once again, it is typically the police, not protesters, who initiate violence.

If a snatch squad grabs someone and arrests them violently this doesn't mean that attacking the police with rocks is a good idea.

You know the police view all demonstrators as pieces of shit who could potentially throw a rock at who or whatever.

When you have a group of peaceful demonstrators who may or may not be masked get jumped and beaten by the police its often because something else has happened elsewhere in the city.

We saw this right after the BM incident in pitts.

[bcbm]

I don't think someone can believe in peaceful, non confrontational, struggle and partake in breaking windows.

non-confrontational? i don't know what you're going for. i'm aiming for a classless society that will be realized through proletarian self-organization and the removal of power from the bourgeoisie. i don't really see any way this can happen without a "confrontation" of some sort. so it sounds like we're not even talking about the same struggle to me.


My original point was - What is the most successful action these people have been involved in? Why would they invest effort into peaceful actions if they think their super awesome violence is a winning tactic?

because, to repeat myself again, struggle occurs on many fronts.


How was it successful and how has it changed things?

well it inspired a whole mess of anarchists anyway, and probably got some more people interested. beyond that, i'm not sure, but certainly success in the streets has correlated to growth in the movement which in turn means more projects, organizing and struggles all around.


The police felt they were successful

they let a ton of shit get wrecked and all they managed to do was gas and arrest some students. yeah, bang-up job.


and if the corporations didn't terribly mind the amount of damage done to them (which I've heard is true) then what is the message being sent and who is it being sent to? Who gives a flying fuck except for other militant individuals who maybe couldn't make the demonstrations?

i've already copypasta'd the message twice.


The state put out a honey pot and the violent direct action'ers took the bait.

no a honey pot would involve, say, managing to arrest a lot of militants and throw them in jail for a long time. that was avoided this time around.


It was pretty funny to me because I have been there myself.

good for you. if the situation were reversed, i wouldn't be making jokes about another militant being abused by the police because i think that's fucked up.


Not caring about what happens to them and actively trying to make something happen to them are two different things.

well i never said i was in pittsburgh and, indeed, i wasn't so i'm not sure what i am actively trying to make happen.


You guys are fucking around with the leaves while this horrible monstrosity of a tree grows out of control.

again, false dichotomy. i don't think the anarchists who wreck shit are necessarily different from the anarchists who are community organizers.


If a snatch squad grabs someone and arrests them violently this doesn't mean that attacking the police with rocks is a good idea.

no its a better idea to surround the snatch squad and free whoever they grabbed.


You know the police view all demonstrators as pieces of shit who could potentially throw a rock at who or whatever.

yes, they do this whether anything violent happens or not.


When you have a group of peaceful demonstrators who may or may not be masked get jumped and beaten by the police its often because something else has happened elsewhere in the city.

often? no often the police attack any demonstrators they can get their hands on regardless of provocation and some people might defend themselves or go cause trouble elsewhere, but its still the police who are the aggressors.

[Ele'ill]

non-confrontational? i don't know what you're going for. i'm aiming for a classless society that will be realized through proletarian self-organization and the removal of power from the bourgeoisie. i don't really see any way this can happen without a "confrontation" of some sort. so it sounds like we're not even talking about the same struggle to me.

You cannot break windows or destroy ATM's and then sit in front of the police and flash peace signs.




because, to repeat myself again, struggle occurs on many fronts.

If I believe in peaceful struggle I wouldn't brick a cop. Some of the fronts are conflicting. We're also talking about demonstrations specifically.




well it inspired a whole mess of anarchists anyway, and probably got some more people interested.beyond that, i'm not sure, but certainly success in the streets has correlated to growth in the movement which in turn means more projects, organizing and struggles all around.

But this wasn't the purpose in their actions. There are easier ways to achieve growth and inspire.






they let a ton of shit get wrecked and all they managed to do was gas and arrest some students. yeah, bang-up job.

Because they didn't intimidate anyone into not acting violent, right? :rolleyes:






i've already copypasta'd the message twice.

And I've responded to it twice (at least) Why does it keep getting copy pasted if I've already responded to it. Perhaps it's time to use your own words and respond to my response.




no a honey pot would involve, say, managing to arrest a lot of militants and throw them in jail for a long time. that was avoided this time around.

Or to divert all the demonstrator's efforts into something that's fake and useless.

I think the police arrested plenty of 'militants' in comparison to how many there were.




good for you.

:rolleyes:



if the situation were reversed, i wouldn't be making jokes about another militant being abused by the police because i think that's fucked up.

We've both been through it together then. Let's joke about it because it's way too depressing to talk about on serious terms.




well i never said i was in pittsburgh and, indeed, i wasn't so i'm not sure what i am actively trying to make happen.

I don't understand what this is a response to.




again, false dichotomy. i don't think the anarchists who wreck shit are necessarily different from the anarchists who are community organizers.

They may dabble in organizing of smaller events but from my experience they usually are not community organizers. Not that they couldn't be. I don't want to sound like I'm trying to cliche their character or anything.

Community organizing takes a lot of time and energy. The chaos club and blow shit up crew are using a different tactic to target what I believe to be honey pots, objects that the state is willing to sacrifice.

I don't believe the more militant individuals could be both successful community organizers and engage in violent direct action because of the energy and time involved in planning both. I understand a smash and run campaign is spontaneous but a community organizer that has invested month after month into building a network or starting a movement isn't going to risk being arrested for something like this.










yes, they do this whether anything violent happens or not.



often? no often the police attack any demonstrators they can get their hands on regardless of provocation and some people might defend themselves or go cause trouble elsewhere, but its still the police who are the aggressors.


I see people exercising their right to march. The police attack or harass first in all their military gear and vehicles. This interferes with the right to peacefully assemble. So the anarchists and more militant people make space for the right to assemble by throwing rocks and such.

I don't understand how this last part makes things better in the long run.

[bcbm]

You cannot break windows or destroy ATM's and then sit in front of the police and flash peace signs.

If I believe in peaceful struggle I wouldn't brick a cop. Some of the fronts are conflicting. We're also talking about demonstrations specifically.

well i doubt they go on every march looking to get rowdy, but i wasn't talking specifically about demonstrations anyway, as there is a lot more to the class struggle than how we deal with cops.


But this wasn't the purpose in their actions.

i haven't seen any communiques detailing why they did what they did, but i can imagine it was along the lines of what i already posted and given recent chatter in the anarchist movement, i think it probably was a bit of what i said as well.


There are easier ways to achieve growth and inspire.

this is a quick, albeit spectacular, way to reach a large mass of people all over the country, if not the world, something which many other projects lack due to their longer term and less image-based nature. which isn't to say they're worse as they're almost certainly better, but a good victory in the streets can help reinvigorate those projects and keep people's spirits high.


Because they didn't intimidate anyone into not acting violent, right? :rolleyes:

i dunno, did the students throw rocks? i'd imagine most people who smashed shit and bricked cops probably went there with that intention, independent of the police action, or at least prepared to defend themselves.


And I've responded to it twice (at least) Why does it keep getting copy pasted if I've already responded to it. Perhaps it's time to use your own words and respond to my response.

your response keeps asking the same questions that the copypasta answers.


Or to divert all the demonstrator's efforts into something that's fake and useless.

as previously pointed out, i don't think it was particularly fake or useless.


I think the police arrested plenty of 'militants' in comparison to how many there were.

they are trying to charge one person for all the damage last i checked, so... i'd say they probably didn't get that many, no.


We've both been through it together then. Let's joke about it because it's way too depressing to talk about on serious terms.

nah, i like to keep my hatred sharp.


I don't understand what this is a response to.

oh i misunderstood you i guess, i thought you were referring to me specifically and not the amorphous mess of rock-throwers. in that case, people have their own motivations and i don't see much reason to question them. i don't think it harms the struggle.



I don't believe the more militant individuals could be both successful community organizers and engage in violent direct action because of the energy and time involved in planning both. I understand a smash and run campaign is spontaneous but a community organizer that has invested month after month into building a network or starting a movement isn't going to risk being arrested for something like this.

you'd be surprised.

and anyway it takes about 20 minutes to goto wal-mart and get some hammers, a couple hours to study the terrain and a couple more hours to come up with a vague plan of action. all of this could be done while in town for the demo. and these demos only happen about once a year, so there's loads of time to be spent doing other shit within your community.


I see people exercising their right to march. The police attack or harass first in all their military gear and vehicles. This interferes with the right to peacefully assemble. So the anarchists and more militant people make space for the right to assemble by throwing rocks and such.

I don't understand how this last part makes things better in the long run.

well depends if you can beat the cops back or not. the movement here isn't at that level yet, but you have to start somewhere.

[Ele'ill]

i haven't seen any communiques detailing why they did what they did

Perhaps this is a problem? I would really like to know.




this is a quick, albeit spectacular, way to reach a large mass of people all over the country, if not the world, something which many other projects lack due to their longer term and less image-based nature.

No, its because the 'longer term' stuff actually requires some thought. The problem is that behind the spectacular property destruction and the throwing of things there is no organization to mobilize, there is no goal, there is no movement. It's autonomous, sure, but that's about it.



which isn't to say they're worse as they're almost certainly better, but a good victory in the streets can help reinvigorate those projects and keep people's spirits high.

What projects?




i dunno, did the students throw rocks? i'd imagine most people who smashed shit and bricked cops probably went there with that intention, independent of the police action, or at least prepared to defend themselves.

I don't doubt that a lot of people went to this event with the intention to act violently. This was fairly obvious. I think the police presence made a lot of people think twice.




your response keeps asking the same questions that the copypasta answers.

I asked a new set of questions about the copy-pasted link and it was pasted again. If you want to paste it again I'll go through and specifically answer to it but I can't do that AND answer/respond to all of your stuff. That would be way too much text.




they are trying to charge one person for all the damage last i checked, so... i'd say they probably didn't get that many, no.

If this is what's circulating in the news, independent or mainstream, It isn't entirely true. I know of people who are currently in the system and have court dates set for various offenses relating to damaged stuff.




nah, i like to keep my hatred sharp.

You shouldn't have to keep it sharp if there's a genuine issue at hand.



you'd be surprised.

Yes, I would be.


and anyway it takes about 20 minutes to goto wal-mart and get some hammers, a couple hours to study the terrain and a couple more hours to come up with a vague plan of action. all of this could be done while in town for the demo.

Absolutely right and it was VERY vague. Which is why the 2500 strong (a noteworthy number) unpermitted march lasted all of about ten minutes. Why? Because the planning was grossly incompetent. Arsenal Park only had two roads leading from it to the downtown area. The police barricaded both these roads way up in the neighborhoods. I mean, Jesus fucking duh, and then some of the type A personalities steered the march down the wrong street which was pretty amusing to watch 2500 people change directions because they got lost. So in response to bad planning some of these type A's decided to engage the police with dumpsters etc.. Getting everyone gassed and giving the police justification to spend the next two hours chasing people down in the neighborhoods while gassing and using that STUPID fucking LRAD device.






and these demos only happen about once a year, so there's loads of time to be spent doing other shit within your community.

Most people who have invested months or years into community organizing movements aren't going to sacrifice it all for a fucking shop window.

I speculate that most people don't do a god damned thing.




well depends if you can beat the cops back or not. the movement here isn't at that level yet, but you have to start somewhere.

Start with a purpose.

[bcbm]

I speculate that most people don't do a god damned thing.

well you're wrong, and this discussion isn't really worth continuing.

[Ele'ill]

well you're wrong, and this discussion isn't really worth continuing.

Yes, most of the people acting violent don't do anything else after the event in their own communities.


I'm sorry you feel that you can no longer continue. :lol:

[bcbm]

Yes, most of the people acting violent don't do anything else after the event in their own communities.

given that the violence is committed anonymously, i don't think you can know this with any certainty. knowing people who've been involved in various organizations that have staged the demos and such where shit went down though, i'm going to say that, again, you're wrong and don't have a fucking clue.

and i'm grumpy and this is just going in circles and we're never going to agree, clearly, so who gives a fuck. there you go.

[Ele'ill]

given that the violence is committed anonymously, i don't think you can know this with any certainty.

It's not anonymous even to the cops. Everyone knows everyone.


knowing people who've been involved in various organizations that have staged the demos and such where shit went down though, i'm going to say that, again, you're wrong and don't have a fucking clue.

I don't' know of any serious organizers who would dedicate large portions of their life for causes they believe so passionately in and then risk being arrested for something as stupid albeit serious as property destruction or attacking a police officer.




and i'm grumpy and this is just going in circles and we're never going to agree, clearly, so who gives a fuck. there you go.

I respect you for at least this much. So here is a big grin. :D

[bcbm]

It's not anonymous even to the cops. Everyone knows everyone.

i've never known the bulk of people i've been on demos with.


I don't' know of any serious organizers who would dedicate large portions of their life for causes they believe so passionately in and then risk being arrested for something as stupid albeit serious as property destruction or attacking a police officer.

you must hang with a different crowd.

and anyway, better than serious organizers becoming snitches (http://www.brandondarby.com/).


I respect you for at least this much. So here is a big grin. :D

yeah i don't really care enough about breaking windows and bricking cops to put this much effort into defending it. i'm not going to knock it, but really i don't care and i think the people who fetishize it are generally dipshits.